Audio
Prabhupada: ...is real scientist. Those who change every year theory, I don't like that scientist. Do you like that scientist?
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupada: Then who? Nobody, no gentleman likes that.
Dr. Patel: He's not a scientist, who changes himself.
Dr. Patel: No, but the scientists try to unearth the secrets of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Scientists, the modern science, is trying to unearth the secrets of Krsna only.
Prabhupada: Trying to...?
Dr. Patel: The difference of each comes in practically two, three Upanisads, the one which you have also commented. There is. That happens, the Mundakopanisad, in the beginning. dve vidye veditavya para capara ca. [There are two kinds of knowledge to be known. One is para or spiritual and the other is apara or material.] So we are the scientists of the apara-vidya; you are the scientist of the para-vidya. So we must not have any quarrel. We have divided our sphere of activity.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa...
Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upanisad that...
Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went...
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And they said that we have...
Prabhupada: To know what is your position, whether still you are foolish or you have become intelligent. That is...
Dr. Patel: If he had not become intelligent, he would not have gone there.
Prabhupada: That has to be... Then...
Dr. Patel: That means he had become intelligent.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That is all right. He has gone to the.... That is pious. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtinah [Bg 7.16]. Anyone who goes to Krsna or guru for asking, he is pious. He is not miscreant. Duskrtina. He is not duskrtina. He is pious. Maybe he is in the lower position, but he is pious. That is described. And one who does not go either to Krsna or His representative, he is duskrtina, naradhama. This is the difference. One man is suffering from some disease. If he has gone to the physician, he is intelligent. And one who says, "Ha, what is this? I don't care for that," he's a rascal. That's all.
Dr. Patel: He must come to me. [laughs]
Prabhupada: Yes. Anyone who accepts that "I must be treated," he is intelligent.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: No. No. No. There is no need of. You have the car, you can go from this place to that place very quickly, so utilize it for Krsna conscious.
Dr. Patel: They must know how to drive it. That is knowledge. Why do you say no?
Prabhupada: That automatically comes.
Dr. Patel: How can you automatically? Nothing can come automatically.
Prabhupada: You'll see many drivers, they do not know about mechanics, but very first class driver.
Dr. Patel: Well, learning driving is a knowledge of driving.
Prabhupada: Yes, driving, that is...
Dr. Patel: Svarupa[?], why don't you say something?
Prabhupada: Yes. Many... Many first-class owner.... You know. You are a physician. You are not a motor mechanics, but you know how to drive. That is not very difficult thing.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Dr. Patel: Sudurlabhah.
Prabhupada: Yes. But such kind of intelligent person is very rare.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is...
Dr. Patel: That is real Vaisnava. Otherwise you are not.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: And don't now, please, say we are...
Prabhupada: No, no, then don't refer to Krsna.
Dr. Patel: We are trying to learn it.
Prabhupada: No, but you defy Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, now scientists say that "Now we are advanced. We don't require God." There is a book. Yes. "We don't require God. Now we shall adjust. We shall create... We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: You are also scientist. You are on one side.
Prabhupada: You know that?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. Right, sir.
Prabhupada: They say that "We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: It is not possible to... Can they create a leaf? Then let them create a human.
Prabhupada: But that... Therefore we say rascals.
Dr. Patel: But then you don't bracket all of us, together. We are four or five of us here. We are next to you. We are none of those.
Prabhupada: Then the same theory, that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." [laughter] Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food.
Prabhupada: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad."
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.
Prabhupada: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Krsna, he remains in darkness.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Krsna. He is doing work for Krsna, and he cannot be...
Prabhupada: No, no, everyone has to work for Krsna. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Krsna. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He willingly does it.
Prabhupada: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Krsna. You cannot... Nobody can say...
Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.
Prabhupada: No, I don't say; Krsna says.
Dr. Patel: Krsna says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him.
Prabhupada: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Krsna, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Krsna has said that anyone who has not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Krsna?" "No." "You are a rascal." [laughter] No. Our test is very simple.
Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir?
Prabhupada: He does not know anything but Krsna. He knows everything...
Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Everything happening is... By Krsna's grace he's surrendering to...
Prabhupada: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual.
Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is...
Prabhupada: No, mental concoction is not factual.
Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Krsna's own order, and if that...
Prabhupada: And you have no responsibility.
Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process?
Prabhupada: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Krsna's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't...
Dr. Patel: But by Krsna's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side?
Prabhupada: Then say that. Why do you say one side?
Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Krsna. The man is diseased by Krsna, I am produced by Krsna, I'll care by Krsna this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Krsna's grace.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: Then that is Krsna's grace.
Prabhupada: Then that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. That is Krsna conscious. Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. [laughter]
Prabhupada: No, when in everything you see Krsna, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage.
When one sees, he sees this beach, but he does not see beach, he sees Krsna, that is the highest stage.
Dr. Patel: I was meaning that, but unfortunately my expression was very poor.
Prabhupada: Yes, that may be.
Dr. Patel: I am not student of literature like you.
Prabhupada: Nothing can exist... Maya tatam idam sarvam. So everything is Krsna. Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam. Where is not Krsna? But the Mayavadi says, "Everything is Krsna; therefore let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. "What is the use of going to the temple? Let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. Krsna says clearly, therefore,
Dr. Patel: Na caham tesv avasthitah means no more important.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You are wise.
Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right...
Gurudasa: Vaisnava is not happy in someone else's misery.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...possible if you remain with the devotees. [Transl. Ha, so I should dress like them.] [laughter] [Transl. Not that you remain five, ten minute with the devotees and then] nondevotees' association. Satam prasaṅgan mama virya-samvido, bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Satam prasaṅgat. Amongst devotees if you remain, then krsna-katha will be so pleasing, rasayanah katha, rasayana. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said,
Dr. Patel: The sat-saṅga.
Prabhupada: Yes, sat-saṅga.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: No, no, you are not... I don't say that you are rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, about sat-saṅga.
Prabhupada: Rather, I think myself rascal because... [laughter]
Dr. Patel: I say about sat-saṅga. Let us turn the issue.
Prabhupada: I could not draw you in my temple.
Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays.
Indian: [Transl. The bliss of spiritual discussion is wonderful. Once one gets it...]
Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself.
Prabhupada: Everyone is.
Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. [break] [laughter] I will become after sixty-five.
Prabhupada: You are fifteen years late already. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. [break] ...you think, sir, that is more important than...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side.
Prabhupada: No, clothing is... Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah, sa sannyasi [Bg 6.1]. It is not the clothing. Clothing is not... Sa yogi ca na niragnir na cakriyah. [Transl. Their habit is sinful. They have committed grave sins. This is the reason and nothing else.] And continually doing that maha-papa.
[break] ...prapadyante naradhamah [Bg 7.15]
Dr. Patel: Because they are mayayapahrta-jnana.
Prabhupada: Yes. It means they have no knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Maya has taken away their vision, their sense of understanding, sense of... What do you call, sense of understanding or sense of...?
Prabhupada: Sense of reality.
[break] ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively, "Everyone is God." Maybe...
Dr. Patel: [Transl. See God in everyone, but don't call everyone God.]
Dr. Patel: Hmm. Now we must not...
Prabhupada: [Transl. That means he has not seen Narayana in everyone.] That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Narayana everywhere.
Dr. Patel: That is the highest achievement of a Vaisnava. [break]
Prabhupada: ...therefore there is character. Just like there are some terpenoids or some, so many. If little change is there, immediately the color changes, the flavor change. And who has adjusted?
Dr. Patel: There they find Krsna, sir.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That has been... I was already telling you, that three colors...
Prabhupada: No, no. They said that "Now we are scientists. We do not require God." Yes.
Dr. Patel: They are capable of putting, I mean... The putting of a small leaf in a hydrocarbon... You can't put it from that. To that extent we have come in biochemistry or chemistry.
Prabhupada: Therefore they should admit who has adjusted it. Then who has adjusted like this, so that the color, the flavor, everything is maintained standard? That is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: No, sir, He desired and said, "Let Me be many," and He became many. So by desire the whole cosmos has come into existence. So by desire the colors change.
Prabhupada: Even there... Coconut trees, there are varieties. One tree is standing like this; one is standing like this. Varieties.
Prabhupada: No, Vaisnava accepts the varieties.
Dr. Patel: He accept the variety but he sees in Him everywhere.
Prabhupada: No. Variety is everywhere.
[aside:] Hare Krsna. [end]
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