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Dhananjaya: In fact, the word "London" is coming from the Latin word londonium. Londonium was a small fishing port that the Romans founded on the Thames.

Prabhupada: Oh. You are not sufficiently covered.

Yogesvara: I'm all right.

Prabhupada: No, you are not all right.

[pause] [break] Indian civilization is that they constructed big, big buildings, but for God, temple. And for the people, they were satisfied in small villages. So far the temples are concerned, South Indian temple, wonderful temple.

[aside:] Not so near.

Mostly Visnu temple. We shall go this side?

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Prabhupada: [sound of birds chirping] In Tokyo there is a park, this sound was there. [pause] Cement, no?

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Prabhupada: And fish combined.

Dhananjaya: Yes, seahorse. Did such an animal exist, seahorse? Or is this man's imagination?

Prabhupada: No, seahorse we have heard, there is. Sea elephant, seahorse, there are. [break]

Atreya Rsi: ...and all kinds of games. Four boys died that year trying to... [break]

Prabhupada: ...and Roman climate the same? No.

Atreya Rsi: Rome is a little warmer, isn't it?

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: Now the whole city is a little more humid.

Prabhupada: Paris?

Yogesvara: It's sunny. Sunny.

Atreya Rsi: Sunnier than London. Very close to London.

Yogesvara: Not cold like London, ever.

Prabhupada: There is snow. [break] ...and Darjeeling. [break]

Atreya Rsi: Anthropomorphic.

Prabhupada: Anthropomorphic. That means man worship.

Satsvarupa: They deify a man. He's a man, but the people make him as a god.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: They say that about Krsna, that Krsna was a man, and then later His followers deified Him. That man wrote that in that pamphlet, Dr. Bannerjee, in Delhi.

Prabhupada: Oh, he has said like that? Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg 9.11]. So why they do not deify others? Only Krsna? There were many big, big men. All the Pandavas, they were very big men. Krsna was contemporary to the Pandavas. Why Krsna was picked up, and not the Pandavas? What is the reason?

Yogesvara: The Pandavas were the servants of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: The Pandavas were the devotees of Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, no. This anthropomorphism cannot be applied.

Satsvarupa: Their activities were not so great.

Prabhupada: Well, nobody's activities can be greater than God's activities.

Yogesvara: There was that lady who came to see you yesterday who asked that "Lord Jesus performed so many miracles. So what miracles did Krsna perform?" So your reply was so many miracles, killing Putana and so on. But that was five thousand years ago. Krsna's not here today. And people will ask, "Well, we cannot see these miracles. So how can we accept Krsna?"

Bhagavan: Well they can't see Jesus' miracles either.

Prabhupada: [laughs] They can see the miracles of Jesus Christ?

Yogesvara: They will accept anyone.

Prabhupada: All such questions. No sober questions.

Atreya Rsi: Krsna's miracles are in the hearts of devotees today.

Bhagavan: Krsna's miracle is Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone can see. Who has given such information? All practical.

Bhagavan: There are so many scriptures all over the world, but just in the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna gives more knowledge than all of the other scriptures.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. It is the greatest miracle. [pause] These trees, not fruit trees?

Dhananjaya: No. [break]

Yogesvara: ...is that "Okay, you present Bhagavad-gita as being the evidence for Krsna, but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gita. So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?"

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: If so many people have to debate the message of Bhagavad-gita...

Prabhupada: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Krsna said, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg 3.14]. So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point?

Yogesvara: Well, they may think..., they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Krsna was God.

Prabhupada: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Krsna is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold. If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative.

Yogesvara: Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God.

Prabhupada: So what is that God? Tell me.

Yogesvara: Well, it's like the Guru Maharaj-ji people. They say they've seen Guru Maharaj-ji lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. They say they have seen Guru Maharaj-ji doing all the miracles that Krsna claims to have done.

Prabhupada: No, Krsna, when Krsna is present, when He lifted the Govardhana Hill, everyone saw. Where is your rascal Guru Maharaj doing that, everyone can see? When Krsna in Vrndavana, He lifted the Govardhana Hill, all the inhabitants saw. [break]

Atreya Rsi: ...arising from Krsna's pastimes proves that atheists cannot understand Krsna. Because they are atheists, they don't want to accept Him as God. Therefore they will not...

Prabhupada: Atheist do not accept God anywhere. So atheist is different thing. Atheist is atheist. Asuri. Asuri bhavam asritah [Bg 7.15] Atheist has no knowledge. [break]

Dhananjaya: ...control the whole of Rome. They own nearly all the businesses. [break]

Atreya Rsi: ...a few enjoying very much. In the whole city, a lot of parks, a lot of amphitheaters, and that is how they went to ruin.

Prabhupada: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. American luxury or European luxury leading to these hippies' poverty. Voluntarily they are accepting poverty. Opposite. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Pendulum.

Dhananjaya: [loud noise from birds] What is that?

Prabhupada: Cranes.

Dhananjaya: Cranes?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: The zoo.

Dhananjaya: Those are pelicans, with the big bag underneath. And there are some South American animals, llamas. [break]

Prabhupada: ...fight with tiger and elephants?

Atreya Rsi: Lions. Lions.

Dhananjaya: They would use a trident and a net, and they would try to throw the net over the lion and fight the lion like this.

Prabhupada: And kill?

Dhananjaya: And kill, yes. They would arm themselves with a helmet and some protection here for their arms, and sometimes for their chest, and then they would attack with the trident. [break] ...Tiberius Claudius.

Atreya Rsi: For enjoyment they would even put two gladiators fighting each other, two men killing each other, and they would all watch.

Prabhupada: Just see. That was in India also, that Kamsa's wrestling with Krsna. Yes.

Yogesvara: Was that to the death?

Prabhupada: Yes. It comes automatically to death, although it is not meant. Nobody will agree that "I am defeated." Therefore death. There must be death. What is this building?

Dhananjaya: This is a mock mountaintop for the goats and for other wild animals.

Prabhupada: Oh, this is artificial?

Dhananjaya: Artificial.

Yogesvara: There's one. There's a goat. [end]