Audio
Dr. Patel: ...the whole world, but according to you said, lately [indistinct] say.
Prabhupada: No, no. You don't find in any dictionary. It is not old. It is...
Indian man (1): It is like daridra-narayana.
Prabhupada: Like daridra-narayana, yes. You are intelligent. [laughs] It is another manufacturing, "daridra." Janardana... Janatai is not Janardana. We say, yesam pakse janardana. Yesam pakse janardana. "All glories to the party whose side Janardana is there." Yesam pakse janardana.
Indian man (1): Pakse, pakse janardana.
Prabhupada: Pandu-putranam yesam pakse janardana. Pandu-putra, the Pandavas, are glorified because on their side, Krsna is there. Therefore, victory for them. One very big doctor of Allahabad, my old friend, Dr. G. Ghosh, he is also D.T.M., and M.A.B. [indistinct]. He wants to join this movement.
Dr. Patel: Haribol. There will be one doctor, he'll look to the health and hygiene of the inmates.
Prabhupada: Why not yourself?
Dr. Patel: On that point I'm going to be very [indistinct]. That gentleman...
Prabhupada: These rascals, asuras, they do not know which is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduh. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. It is nivrtti. Nivrtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivrtti. Just hear me. And pravrtti, take to Krsna. This is pravrtti, nivrtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na viduh asura-jana [Bg 16.7]. They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.
Dr. Patel: Na acaro na satyam te suddha vidyate.
Prabhupada: Na acarah. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They're addict..., they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura-jana. Live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gita. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya maya labdham imam prapsye manoratham [Bg 16.13]. This is the only plan. "Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow further increase." Increase, increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this... That's all.
Indian man (2): That plan becomes out of date next year.
Prabhupada: Ah? [laughs] Yes. That "He's my enemy. He's my friend. I'll kill so many enemies. Now one enemy is still there... Who is richer than me? Who is wiser than me?" These are the plans of the asura-jana.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit] Sadrso maya .
Prabhupada: Sadrso maya. Yes. "I'll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons and great-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn't matter. [laughs] My grandson will enjoy." These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that "If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?" They reply, "For the next generation." Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram [Bg 16.19]. Yes. So...
Dr. Patel: Asurim...
Prabhupada: So... Punar janmani. They'll never be able to understand what is Krsna. Bhagavan mate. They'll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on.
Dr. Patel: But then how will they come up?
Prabhupada: When they tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg 4.34]. When they come to this stage to understand things by surrendering. But they will never surrender. That is their business. Huh?
Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they surrender.
Prabhupada: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by maya every moment, but because they are fool, they say, "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihaya. Vihaya. No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless that he's declared, "I'm independent. I'm independent." Shameless. [Bengali]
Dr. Patel: Just like those dogs [indistinct]...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asura. This is the characteristic of the asuras. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still they are declaring, "There is no God. I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca [Bg 16.7]. So this is required, pravrtti and nivrtti, to know.
Indian man (4): What is pravrtti?
Dr. Patel: Pravrtti means overstepping God.
Prabhupada: Pravrtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravrtti.
Indian man (4): Nivrtti means...?
Prabhupada: Nivrtti means to stop. Pravrttir esa bhutanam nivrttis tu maha-phalam [Manu-samhita 5.56].
Indian man (4): Nivrtti...?
Prabhupada: Nivrttis tu maha-phalam. Here, at the present moment-not at the present moment; always in the material world-the desire is that "I shall become the greatest enjoyer. I shall become king, I shall become minister... And at last I shall become God." [laughter] You see? So this the false pravrtti. And one who can cut down this rascal propensity, he's successful. But "I'm neither a king, neither a minister, neither I'm going to become God. I'm a teeny living entity, being kicked by the maya, like football." When he comes to this understanding, he is in knowledge.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupada: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always he's thinking, "I'm God. I'm independent. I can do anything," like that. This is asura. Asuram bhavam asritah. Ah?
Indian man: Asuram bhavam asritah.
Prabhupada:
Because they've taken to this asuric principle, they do not surrender. This is the disease, material disease. Here is Krsna, the perfect leader, and they're going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there. His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life, and ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take. They'll not take.
[aside:] Hare Krsna.
[break] Where is your book? You can read.
Dr. Patel: Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksapatri.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Dr. Patel: There is a name of Krsna in every page. I told you the other day.
Prabhupada: Siksapatri.
Dr. Patel: It's a quote of pandita for all Vaisnavas.
Prabhupada: Read something.
Dr. Patel: I'll read the beginning, and then from the middle. Vame yasya sthita radha srisa yasyasti vaksasi / vrndavana-viharam tam srikrsnam hrdi cintaye [Siksapatri 1]. That is the beginning, and how it goes, then...
Prabhupada: Very good. So why did that person said that Sahajanand Swaminarayan is the topmost?
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: No, that is Buddhism. That is not Vaisnavism.
Dr. Patel: Then if they stop them, what he said, [Sanskrit].
Prabhupada: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: That is right. But he's not Buddhist, he's Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: But he's taking the Buddhist philosophy.
Dr. Patel: He's not taking the Buddhist philosophy. In what way he has?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, because in the sastra, in the Vedas, it is stated that sometimes it is recommended animal sacrifice.
Dr. Patel: He did not want to...
Prabhupada: No, no, he says, even if he stated...
Dr. Patel: Should not take it.
Prabhupada: No, that means he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: He's denying the authority of Vaisnava...
Prabhupada: No, no, Vaisnava does not say...
Dr. Patel: He denied the authority of Buddhist, and not Vedas, see what he says...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You read it.
Dr. Patel: Na bhaksyam sarvatha mamsam yajna-sistam api kvacit [Siksapatri 25].
Prabhupada: Ah! Even it is yajna-sistam...
Dr. Patel: Then also you should not eat.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: You should not eat.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: That is what it says.
Prabhupada: That is means denying the authority of Vedas. Vedas say you can eat meat after yajna.
Dr. Patel: But he says no, you should not eat.
Prabhupada: But therefore he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: You should..., you should not eat meat even Veda says.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore he's denying.
Dr. Patel: Yes, but doesn't matter. I don't want to eat meat even the way... Even if you sacrifice a goat here and offer...
Prabhupada: You cannot...
Dr. Patel: Na caiva...
Prabhupada: ...deny the authority of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: Vedas...
Prabhupada: You may not eat, that is a different thing. But the Vedic authority... Just like, suppose the law says, "This man should be hanged." If you say, "No, even if he is criminal, he should not be hanged," that means denying the authority of law. You cannot say this.
Dr. Patel: That's right. All right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is...
Prabhupada: No, no, no... You should not eat.
Dr. Patel: That is what he says. You should not eat.
Prabhupada: That's... You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Veda. You cannot stop meat-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascal who are meat-eaters, if you say, "Don't eat meat," he'll never do that. Therefore, "Yes, you can eat meat just after offering to the goddess Kali," and in this way, that means once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So Vedas means they're taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, "You don't do this." You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, "Don't drink." They'll not hear you. Therefore restriction: "Yes, you can drink, after offering to the Devi," and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it; just get married. In this way. Otherwise, you may say, "No marriage." Just like, the other day these sannyasis come, because some woman was sitting, they'll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dresses were never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman.
Dr. Patel: Vyabhicaro na kartavyah pumbhih stribhis ca mam sritaih [Siksapatri 18]
Prabhupada: You cannot deny the authority of Vedas. Suppose you are following ahimsa, you cannot say that "State should not anymore hang anybody." That you cannot say. You follow.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Vyabhicaro na kartavyah pumbhih stribhis ca mam sritaih [Siksapatri 18]
Prabhupada: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he decried the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.
Prabhupada: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Yes, Buddha, I mean to say, criticized, criticize the yajna-vidhi. Yajna-vidhi. Yajna-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg 3.9]. Karma-bandhana. So yajna must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you.
Dr. Patel: Devata-tirtha-vipranam sadhvinam ca satam api / vedanam ca na kartavya ninda sravya na ca kvacit [Siksapatri 12]
Prabhupada: But why he's making ninda? That you don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is...
Dr. Patel: I, I follow, even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajna, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal...
Prabhupada: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the Vedic law...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes... You said api, even it is enjoined in the Vedas...
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don't think, but the writing is there.
Dr. Patel: The writing...
Prabhupada: Writing is there.
Dr. Patel: The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting.
Dr. Patel: We are not going to take that way.
Prabhupada: We cannot... As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas, don't do it, that means decrying the Vedas. What do you think?
Dr. Patel: You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaisnavas..., we won't do it.
Prabhupada: The Vaisnava is forbidden.
Dr. Patel: But then, this is a Vaisnava way, forbidden to eat the meat.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.
Dr. Patel: But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of...
Prabhupada: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done...
Dr. Patel: This is tantra, not Vedas. Vedas don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Are you able to do it?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: By tantra they were killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.
Prabhupada: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra...
Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. I am so strong a Vaisnava, I don't think I can allow animal to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this.
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say, "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that.
Prabhupada: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaisnava myself.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas.
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas, sir...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. These I have studied.
Prabhupada: You can manufacture your own way...
Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing. I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Vedas say you kill the animals and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.
Prabhupada: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written injunction of Vedic...
Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own...
Prabhupada: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. You may not like. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.
Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaisnava will not say this. Ideal Vaisnava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat-even in England as a student of London University-meat.
Prabhupada: I'm recommending you to eat meat?
Dr. Patel: No, you eat the.... Indirectly so.
Prabhupada: All right.
Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.
Prabhupada: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.
Dr. Patel: No, I'm not going to take this lesson, kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.
Prabhupada: That is meant for others.
Dr. Patel: Accha! Not for me.
Prabhupada: All right.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaisnava you can't tolerate...
Prabhupada: I don't say that Vaisnava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that?
Indian man (3): [indistinct] Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Indian man (2): No.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] ...allow.
Indians: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Allowed for the rascals and fools.
Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he...
Prabhupada: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.
Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.
Prabhupada: Gradually, gradually. Just like...
Dr. Patel: As a Vaisnava we can't tolerate meat.
Prabhupada: That is all right, but...
Dr. Patel: I can...
Prabhupada: ...you cannot...
Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed [indistinct].
Prabhupada: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal.
Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasada is offered, they won't take it.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasada even if it is offered."
Prabhupada: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kali. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.
Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say that I reject...
Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kali-yajna."
Prabhupada: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda...
Dr. Patel: Kali's temple, Kali's temple is not Vedic, but it is tantric, tantric.
Prabhupada: That you say. That you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Narada Pancaratra.
Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Narada Pancaratra, aren't we?
Prabhupada: Tantra.
Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaisnavas in India, Narada Pancaratra is the very fiber around which we all revolve. [break]
Prabhupada: ...astray. We are not advocating meat-eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.
Dr. Patel: But this is not Vedic, eh...
Prabhupada: This is Vedic.
Dr. Patel: ...that you can...
Prabhupada: In the yajna, not that all yajna. But in the... som yajnas? there is recommendation.
Dr. Patel: So why do you want to...
Prabhupada: It is stated in Bhagavad-gita, yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih [Bg 3.13].
Dr. Patel: Yajna-sista asinah. Not meat.
Prabhupada: Yes. Asinah.
Indian man (3): ...mucyante sarva-kilbisaih.
Prabhupada: So this procession is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat.
Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues.
Prabhupada: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed.
Dr. Patel: We are a Vaisnava. As Vaisnavas we are not allowed to do this.
Prabhupada: You cannot stop that. Suppose you..., there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat-eating?
Dr. Patel: The Vaisnavas, they are to only perform those yajnas called...
Prabhupada: Yajnas for satisfaction of Visnu.
Prabhupada: And that, that is also... Visnu-yajna is there, there is no sacrifice of animals.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You do not know. There is.
Indian man (4): Yajna is not necessary at all.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (4): Yajna is only for getting..., to gain certain aims.
Prabhupada: In the Bhagavatam you'll find the daksa-yajna, daksa-yajna. Daksa-yajna. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Daksa Maharaja.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is described in the Bhagavatam.
Indian man (4): Yajnas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.
Prabhupada: Our philosophy is yajnaih saṅkirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [SB 11.5.32]. That is our...
Indian man (4): The saṅkirtana be our yajna.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] It is stated in the sastra, yajnaih saṅkirtana-prayaih. Kalau, in this age...
Indian man (4): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do... [laughs]
Prabhupada: He's going in a different way.
Dr. Patel: As a Vaisnava. No, that is what I'm...
Prabhupada: No, no. You do not understand, that is the defect.
Dr. Patel: That is my misfortune. That is my misfortune, because I am a little thick-skulled man. But then you explain me what I should behave.
Prabhupada: Suppose you don't believe in meat-eating, can you stop?
Dr. Patel: I don't want to stop. For your followers you say that don't eat meat.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Like that he has told us, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: You don't want to eat, do yajna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So don't call it Buddhist.
Prabhupada: But that doesn't... No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it.
Dr. Patel: I'm not talking about Vaisnava philosophy and Buddhist...
Prabhupada: This is Buddhist philosophy, that even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha, said, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas, I don't accept Vedas." That is Buddhist philosophy.
Dr. Patel: He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it. I've read it before you.
Prabhupada: You'll see, it is stated, nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam means the Vedas. "There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them."
Dr. Patel: He has not decried them. Devata-tirtha-vipranam sadhvinam ca satam api / vedanam ca na kartavya ninda sravya na ca kvacit [Siksapatri 12].
Prabhupada: Hmm. So this is ninda. If you say, "Even it is recommended in the Vedas," that is ninda. If you say, "Even it is recommended by the Vedas," that means Vedas are mistaken; you are right. You do not know what is the purpose of Vedas.
Dr. Patel: What is the purpose of Vedas?
Prabhupada: The purpose is gradually to bring them...
Dr. Patel: But he...
Prabhupada: ...not that all of a sudden that you say, "No, you cannot eat."
Dr. Patel: He..., all of a sudden he talks about Vaisnavas who are above all these low-class fellows. Vaisnavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then he is instructing the Vaisnavas, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupada: Vaisnavas should go to sacrifice. [Hindi]
Dr. Patel: There is no... Hindu, aren't the Hindus...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim and Vaisnava...
Dr. Patel: I don't think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be...
Prabhupada: But you don't hear me, that is the difference.
Dr. Patel: I'm hearing you perfectly well, but I'm very quick to grasp it. That is the misfortune of me.
Prabhupada: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear.
Dr. Patel: How can you... [laughs] How can you say I'm in...
Prabhupada: That is the... That is your alpa-medhasah. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking, you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that a murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.
Dr. Patel: My point is no meat-eating by Vaisnavas. My point is that.
Prabhupada: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death...
Dr. Patel: That, that's all right.
Prabhupada: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.
Dr. Patel: But he's not condemning the law. He said, "Don't make the yajna." As he said, "Don't make the yajna," he said, "Make the yajna, but don't eat the meat." That is not condemning the law.
Prabhupada: All right. [break] [indistinct]You cannot say the law is only for the Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: He does not say that don't... [break] Nonkilling and not...
Prabhupada: You are mistaken there.
Dr. Patel: I'm not mistaken. I don't think I'm such a fool as that.
Prabhupada: You're mistaken there, that this yajna is meant for other person, not for you.
Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajna, but we are not...
Prabhupada: You cannot surrender.
Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law.
Prabhupada: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended...
Dr. Patel: He's not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn't it? I think I have not...
Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah [Bg 7.20]. They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Krsna says, mam ekam.
Indian man (3): Saranam vraja.
Prabhupada: We are simply...
Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our...
Prabhupada: Mam ekam. Only Krsna. [break]
Dr. Patel: Sva-varnaa-sraima-dharmo yah sa hatavyo na kenacit / para-dharmo na cacaryo… [Siksapatri 24].
Indian man (2): Carvaka said.
Prabhupada: Somebody is bigger than Krsna. Then what you'll do?
Dr. Patel: They're going, "All right, you may talk anything nonsense." It is nonsense, "You are a fool and a rascal and a rogue, and what you are calling so many words." He is that. And they believe him, that's all.
Prabhupada: He yesterday talked like that.
Dr. Patel: Then... Then believe it.
Indian man (2): They say they're..., Krsna is incarnation of Swaminarayan.
Prabhupada: Yes, they talk like that.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't think. They are not... They are small boys.
Prabhupada: Whatever they may be, they represented the Swaminarayan, they said.
Dr. Patel: They have not represented the real thing...
Prabhupada: "Swaminarayan is more than Krsna."
Dr. Patel: Tomorrow these boys say you are more than Krsna, then...
Prabhupada: That's all right, they came to talk with me, representing Swaminarayan.
Dr. Patel: I represent Swaminarayan. Let us talk.
Prabhupada: That's alright. It is difficult to who it. Who represent. You say something, he says something...
Dr. Patel: He's wrong... What Swaminarayan has written is right or wrong. That is his own handwriting. His own writing. Krsna...
[break] That is the injunction. I mean. Now, those fools are right or I am right?
Prabhupada: Avaisnava-mukhodgirnam putam hari-kathamrtam [Sanatana Gosvami].
Dr. Patel: Mm, that's it.
Prabhupada: Sravanam na kartavyam [Hari-bhakti-vilasa].
Dr. Patel: Sravanam, same thing. Don't hear anything we...
[break] Be damn you must not [indistinct].
Prabhupada: A Vaisnava does not like to kill, but Krsna Himself killed so many demons.
Dr. Patel: But Krsna has got the right to kill. [laughter] He can create them also.
Prabhupada: He induced Arjuna to kill, His devotee.
Indian man (2): He was the main killer in that..., on the background.
Prabhupada: Do you think that killing is bad?
Dr. Patel: No, no, no... Yes. Whatever Krsna says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Krsna says kill the animal is right. Okay?
Prabhupada: No, Krsna, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad?
Dr. Patel: No, if Krsna says, "Kill the man, kill this man," then it's right. If I say, "Kill this man," is wrong.
Prabhupada: I mean, Krsna killed some animals also.
Dr. Patel: Then it is right. Whatever Krsna does is right, because He has got the power to create. I know.
Prabhupada: That's right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: There is nothing that's killed. What is killed? Kill is body; atma is sanatana.
Prabhupada: You abide by the order of Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That is what we are abiding, but that is...
Prabhupada: Not killing and not killing.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say.
Prabhupada: These are material conceptions. If Krsna says, "You kill," you should kill.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read this? Krsna-krsna-vatara nam [Siksapatri 29]
Prabhupada: Sastra can say...
Dr. Patel: Some nonsense sastras are there, who can say...
Prabhupada: But that is not sastra. Why you are accepting that sastra? [laughter] He's nonsense. If he accepts something nonsense sastra, he becomes nonsense. Our plea is let us learn from the standard book, Bhagavad-gita, and study, not bring anything else. That will give us proper guidance. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...that is completely verse.
Prabhupada: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva-, rajo-, tamo-guna, some of them are sudras, some of them are ksatriyas, some of them are vaisyas, some of them are brahmana; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the sudras in the Veda, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required-for the sudras, not for you.
Dr. Patel: No, but then he... is gathering for all, sudras...
Prabhupada: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traigunya-visaya vedah. Traigunya-visaya vedah [Bg 2.45].
Dr. Patel: That is the maya.
Prabhupada: By killing, yes. Nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. Your aim should be to go above the qualities of material.
Dr. Patel: That is what he wants.
Prabhupada: But Vedas are describing...
Dr. Patel: They are traigunya and you want to go beyond maya, you want to go above maya.
Prabhupada: When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the sudras, because it is meant for the sudras, you cannot condemn it.
Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it. Then you should not condemn.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is all right. No, no, my point is that something is meant for the sudras.
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. But he has not condemned the yajna; he has made the injunction that you must not take part...
Prabhupada: Just like. Just like in a drug shop there are... [aside:] Hare Krsna. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, "I don't like this drug."
Dr. Patel: Right. Utsavahesu nityam ca… [Siksapatri 40]
Prabhupada: That is also drug...
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupada: For certain persons, for a certain patient.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupada: But maybe it was being done by somebody.
Dr. Patel: They must be. In those days... Those were the departurous days when he was born. [Sanskrit]
Prabhupada: This thing is being done, I know, in a big temple in Mathura. When there is big crowd, they put off the electric, and the rascal goes within the woman. I know that. In Varanasi also, in Visvanatha Temple. They do like this.
Dr. Patel: I know, I have seen. That is why this injunction. So now you are satisfied that these injunctions are right.
Prabhupada: No, you... My point was that because something is not meant for me, and it is in the law...
Dr. Patel: We don't want to proscribe it; we want to...
Prabhupada: We are not servant.
Dr. Patel: That is what he meant. "My followers, Vaisnavas, will not partake into such things. Let others do what they do."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.
Dr. Patel: But then you became fiery.
Prabhupada: No, we can preach. No, my point was that because it is not applicable to me, I shall condemn.
Dr. Patel: That you don't eat, that's not condemning. Let them go and do their own... [break].
Prabhupada: In the lower status, so they require.
Dr. Patel: So, but you are also as weak as I am, both of us, so we... Accha. [laughs] They are wrong, but you are...
Prabhupada: How can I know they are wrong?
Dr. Patel: We are reading what he has written.
Prabhupada: "Swaminarayan is better than Krsna."
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong. That is... You, tomorrow you will say, "He was fool." Suppose these boys tomorrow say... Suppose tomorrow these boys...
Prabhupada: [indistinct] no condemn, because they represented.
Dr. Patel: Yes, they're representing. But I'm representing also. He also represents. We both are. We are Vaisnavas bhaktas.
Prabhupada: He accepted that...[laughs]
Dr. Patel: No, he's wrong, because he has not studied. I have studied.
Prabhupada: Your representative yesterday told me something different.
Dr. Patel: They are boys. [everyone speaking at same time]
Devotee: Why are they allowed to learn like that?
Dr. Patel: You are also learning; you are also...
Prabhupada: What they said?
Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple...
Prabhupada: Then it is bad influence, this type of murti.
Dr. Patel: Saili va dhatuja murtih salagramo… [Siksapatri 56]
Prabhupada: And create Krsna. Saktimat.
[aside:] Hare Krsna.
[break] ...the other day that this Swaminarayan, not Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Because tomorrow we'll say Prabhupada. That is we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty-eight years.
Prabhupada: That means that his followers are not well-conversant.
Indian man (3): Those who are not following it properly, and they are not [indistinct].
Dr. Patel: But then he was actually living. What type of...
Devotee: In England also they are chanting "Swaminarayan," not about Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Indian man (3): No, they are also krsna-bhaktas.
Devotee: How they are they chanting Swaminarayan's?
Indian man (3): They actually work for the Krsna only, and they...
Prabhupada: No, no. Krsna recommends, sastra, harer nama, harer nama, harer namaiva kevalam . So why they should chant "Swaminarayan"?
Dr. Patel: No, listen...
Devotee: He says to chant "Krsna." But they are chanting "Swaminarayan."
Prabhupada: You know, there was a big doctor in Calcutta, Nalini Ranjan Sen. You have heard his name?
Dr. Patel: Yes. Sen.
Prabhupada: He will die of thirstiness, still would not drink outside water. Would come home, offer to the Deity, and then drink. I know that Nalini Ranjan Sen.
Dr. Patel: But he is such a...
Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg 9.14]-Krsna. But why one should chant the other name? Krsna says, satatam kirtayanto mam. Hare Krsna. Not any other name.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: But their preacher, they're chanting "Swaminarayan." They're saying Swaminarayan is greater than Krsna. What kind of preaching is this?
Dr. Patel: This is... [break]
Prabhupada: This Siksapatri… The people will go to the temple. If they say..., if the preacher say that Swaminarayan nama should be chanted...
Dr. Patel: This is directly against Swaminarayan.
Prabhupada: And "Swaminarayan is better than Krsna," then what they learn?
Dr. Patel: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: In London they have got a branch, and they're chanting...
Dr. Patel: They are all wonderful branches, they're [Hindi].
Prabhupada: [Hindi] Swaminarayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting...
Indian man (2): "Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan." [laughs] [break].
Prabhupada: ...thing. "Swaminarayan." Narayana is there.
Indian man (4): Narayana is there.
Dr. Patel: Swami is their guru, and Narayana is God, so both, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada Krsna...
Prabhupada: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami..." No. They're chanting Hare Krsna. Hari-tvena samasta-sastrair uktah. Guru is respected as good as Krsna, but that does not mean I shall teach them, "No, you chant my name, 'Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami.' " What is this? We are teaching, "Chant Hare Krsna." Harer nama, harer nama... .
Indian man (3): Prabhupada so much...
Prabhupada: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I'll think I have become God.
Indians: [indistinct talking at once]
Prabhupada: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the..., you asked them, "Why you say like this?"
Dr. Patel: We are... Here I represent them, and you represent...
Prabhupada: No, they're preaching.
Dr. Patel: Both are Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Just like these boys said. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...all difference here, and they have got no difference at all.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: I would not say that...
Prabhupada: I can understand that. That is not difficult.
Dr. Patel: Ah?
Prabhupada: So only thing is that why they're preaching against their own principle?
Dr. Patel: Ekadasinam sarvasam kartavyam vratam... [Siksapatri 79]
Prabhupada: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Krsna, but they're chanting "Swaminarayan." Why?
Dr. Patel: There are... In Swaminarayan's sampradaya there are...
Indian man (3): "[indistinct] ...you have to follow me." [Indians laugh]
Prabhupada: So far we are concerned, Gaudiya Vaisnavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is wanted. [break] ...do you follow?
Dr. Patel: That is the right. If you... You have the background of those people.
Prabhupada: How can I. [break] They were saying they are sannyasi... yes.
Indian man (2): They say like that, it is not...
Dr. Patel: Those were small boys. What will they know about it?
Prabhupada: But why they are...
Indian man (3): Those boys are taught like this from...
Dr. Patel: Those days you must follow. There are two days coming.
Prabhupada: No, ramanandi, ramanandi.
Dr. Patel: There's a difference. There are two diff... The ekadasi, some of the ekadasi.
Prabhupada: They say that they follow... [break] ...impersonal.
Dr. Patel: Now, he has given about how..., what brahmanas should do-all this.
Prabhupada: Why recommended Panca-upasana?
Dr. Patel: I don't understand that.
Prabhupada: That is the impersonalist.
Indian man (3): [indistinct] bhakti.
Dr. Patel: I don't know... Why...
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no...
Dr. Patel: Pancaratra...
Prabhupada: Pancopasanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pancopasanam. Sadhakanam hitarthaya brahmano rupa-kalpana. Kalpana. "You just imagine one form." But Vaisnava, he's not like that. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs 5.1].
[aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah.
Dr. Patel: It says in the sastra, vedas ca vyasa-sutrani... [Siksapatri 93]
Prabhupada: When the question of sastra comes, shall I read Bhagavad-gita or this?
Dr. Patel: All these things to be read together, because they are complementary to each other. Everybody needs to...
Prabhupada: We have no time to read the complementary...
Dr. Patel: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: ...then what he'll read? Gita that's all.
Dr. Patel: Tatha sri-bhagavad-gita nitis ca vidurodita [Siksapatri 94]
Prabhupada: It is not possible that everyone has to read all the corollaries. The one, main... Bhagavad-gita you read and learn, that I am stressing. That I am stressing.
Indian man (2): That's right.
Dr. Patel: Perfectly right, but what I say what he has... Finer points.
Prabhupada: Now you say there are seven branches, and they're preaching in a different way. So how people will understand which is correct?
Dr. Patel: Because then those people were reading all so many sastras, he narrowed to five. He wanted the Veda you must read, Vyasa-sutra... [break]
Prabhupada: Beginning should be Bhagavad-gita. [break] ...introducing Pancopasanam. Pancopasanam is not for the Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: Not pancopasa, Pancaratra.
Prabhupada: No, no, Panc... Pancaratra is all right. He has recommended the...
Indian man (3): Ganapati [indistinct].
Prabhupada (4): Ganapati and others. In the Bhagavad-gita it is not recommended. Mam ekam.
Prabhupada: So, why he has renounced?
Dr. Patel: Don't say this kind of thing-"It is not recommended."
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Condemning and not recommending is a different thing. It is not condemned. It is not recommended.
Prabhupada: Avidhi-purvakam means condemned. You are doing...
Dr. Patel: Sir, my point is this...
Prabhupada: No, no. Avidhi-purvakam means... Vidhi-purva is right. And avidhi-purva is wrong. The same example, that one has to supply food to the mouth, and if one thinks, "There are so many holes, any hole will do," that is avidhi-purvakam. [break] ...recommended that suppose Ganapati worship.
Dr. Patel: He did not care much about. That, if you see...
Prabhupada: No. Much or less, that doesn't mean. There is recommendation.
Dr. Patel: Recommendation or not, bhakti like Krsna. You are not to do another...
Prabhupada: What is that name? You read it again.
Indians: [indistinct all at once] Only Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, mam ekam.
Dr. Patel: But you see, you have come to our narrow path now. [indistinct] wider. Because thoses days are different when people were worshiping on stones...
Prabhupada: No, no, I cannot... A chaste woman, you cannot be wider. She must stick to one husband.
Dr. Patel: No, in his time, people were Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: You cannot... She cannot say, "I can accept as many husband as required." That is not good.
Indian man (2): Two hundred years before. Two hundred years before. [break]
Prabhupada: ...hence they worship Durga, then you have to sacrifice goat.
Dr. Patel: Ah?
Prabhupada: As soon as you worship Durga...
Dr. Patel: Durga, no, no. There is no Durga.
Prabhupada: Whatever.
Dr. Patel: Ganapati, these three. Siva, Ganapati... One family.
Prabhupada: So as soon as you worship Durga you have to follow the rules, you have to get goats agreement...
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. [Hindi]
Prabhupada: In the Bhagavata it is recommended. In the Bhagavata it is recommended that when Krsna was asking for Devi to go take birth... [indistinct comments by others] ...Devi was recommended to take birth in the womb of Yasoda, Krsna is inducing that "You'll get so many sacrifices." Yes. So that is the [indistinct], animal sacrifice.
Dr. Patel: Therefore [Sanskrit], ah? Vairagyam jneyam apritih sri- krsnetara-vastusu... [Siksapatri 104]
[break] He is recommending the fools, who have got no...
Prabhupada: [indistinct] and advised to the fools, why the Vedas cannot?
Dr. Patel: Vedas, they have advised to the fools to eat animal. But he has advised another fools not to eat it. You see?
Prabhupada: Yes. When you worship Devi, you have to sacrifice goat. Then what you will do?
Dr. Patel: No, no. [Sanskrit] Gurus come in here according to [indistinct] dharma.
Prabhupada: Where this... [break] [kirtana begins] [end]
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