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Brahmananda: This is one introductory... "Bhaktivedanta Institute Lecture Series on the Origin of Life and Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute."

Devotee (2): Get Prabhupada's glasses.

Prabhupada: Get this.

Upendra: Here is a copy...

Dr. Kapoor: Yes, I was given a copy of this this morning.

Devotee (2): This is a partial list of those who've been invited.

Devotee: No. I've given full.

Dr. Kapoor: How many of these people are going to speak?

Devotee: From the United States?

Devotee (2): No, of these people.

Rupanuga: [background discussion about devotees coming] Svarupa Damodara has invited a couple of opposing scientists to speak, also, so that we can discuss two points of view.

Dr. Kapoor: That's good.

Rupanuga: Yes. A couple of important men.

Devotee (2): Which of our men are speaking?

Rupanuga: Also some of our..., three of our GBC men have been invited to speak in an informal discussion in the evening-Satsvarupa Maharaja, Hamsaduta Maharaja, and one other. I'm not sure.

Dr. Kapoor: Are these tulasi beads red-colored?

Rupanuga: No, no. Very old beads.

Dr. Kapoor: What are they made of?

Rupanuga: I don't know.

Dr. Kapoor: Not tulasi?

Rupanuga: No.

Brahmananda: These are the original beads that we got in New York when Prabhupada made the first initiations. There were no tulasi beads available in New York City.

Dr. Kapoor: No, I see. [laughs]

Rupanuga: We went to a bead shop on 14th Street.

Dr. Kapoor: I see. [laughs]

Rupanuga: Japanese beads.

Dr. Kapoor: That has some historic significance, yes.

Rupanuga: Actually, they come out to be very long. Six feet.

Dr. Kapoor: You can now get tulasi beads from here, because it should really speaking be tulasi and not any other thing. Japa-mala.

Rupanuga: Srila Prabhupada chanted on these, so...

Brahmananda: Now they're tulasi.

Dr. Kapoor: [laughs] [pause] Prabhupada seems to be slightly better today. He takes interest in other things and wants to speak.

Brahmananda: You're feeling better today, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: [Transl. I don't know what happened. Whether by taking the syrup...]

Dr. Kapoor: That syrup, he says, that has...

Prabhupada: [Transl. Or by taking the Kaviraja's medicine. I can't understand anything.]

Dr. Kapoor: Let us see. Apply the method of elimination. Eliminate the syrup today and see what the effect is.

Brahmananda: Syrups have made some difficulty?

Dr. Kapoor: Syrups, he says, they seem to be somewhat intoxicating.

Brahmananda: These are by the allopathic or by the...

Dr. Kapoor: Must be allopathic, because the syrups are tonics. Every tonic has that effect partly.

Prabhupada: Only work the kaviraja's strong medicine. I think that on the whole, the condition is not better.

Dr Kapoor: That I think is due to the syrups, you see. The intoxicating effect can be of the syrups only. Because in allopathic there is some alcohol mixed always. So let us eliminate that today and see how the Ayurveda medicine alone works. Nothing intoxicating in the Ayurvedic medicine.

Brahmananda: I know one of the medicines had twenty-five percent caffeine.

Dr. Kapoor: Ayurvedic?

Brahmananda: No. The allopathic.

Dr. Kapoor: Oh. Allopathic. The syrup that was brought.

Brahmananda: Yeah, I'm not... One of them. Upendra was saying.

Dr. Kapoor: Let us stop that today.

Prabhupada: On the whole, the nature of the conference, how do you like?

Dr. Kapoor: Nature of the conference?

Brahmananda: How do you like, on the whole, the nature of the conference?

Dr. Kapoor: It's a good idea. It should be... The conference should be interesting at least. [laughs]

Brahmananda: You're coming?

Dr. Kapoor: I'll try to come. My wife has been ailing, so I'll try to find time and come.

Brahmananda: Begins on Friday in the morning.

Dr. Kapoor: Friday in the morning. No, three days perhaps.

Brahmananda: Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Rupanuga: Ten-thirty Friday, it begins. About 10:30 in the morning.

Dr. Kapoor: Ten-thirty.

Prabhupada: All bona fide scientists.

Dr. Kapoor: Yes. It should be a very representative gathering if they all come. Should be a very representative.

Brahmananda: He's expecting ninety to come.

Dr. Kapoor: Ninety to come, oh. Then it will be a grand success.

Prabhupada: [Transl. All these different] ...theory, they are doing nonsense. Vivekananda's theory, Darwin's theory... Who is that? Ram? Ramakrishna's theory. Another. What is that Ram? Hmm?

Brahmananda: Another Ram?

Dr. Kapoor: Ramtirtha.

Prabhupada: Ramtirtha. Without life, life coming is bogus. Darwin's theory. Have all been discussed?

Brahmananda: In this booklet? I haven't see it.

Dr. Kapoor: The most wonderful thing is that they say life comes from matter, and they don't know what matter is. They don't know what matter is. They confess, "We don't know what matter is." Yet they say life comes from matter. Not one scientist till today has been able to say what matter is. Rather, they have confessed. You see, they say, "I know not what matter is." Even the biggest scientists, they have made this confession.

Prabhupada: And a person from whom life is coming, He says aham adir hi [Bg 10.2]. And they will not come. Where is Tamala Krsna?

Hari-sauri: He's in a BBT Trustee's meeting right now, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Now, whatever direction...

Brahmananda: Prabhupada was saying that one of the medicines has made some intoxicating...

Upendra: He hasn't taken any medicines or any of the syrups that the previous doctor recommended. Just...

Brahmananda: Nothing from the allopathic.

Upendra: No. We've given him this morning protein, liquid protein, one spoonful in the juice he drank. You're talking about this morning? And yesterday we gave him glucose and one spoonful of Liquiline Natural Herb.

Brahmananda: So no allopathic medicines were given?

Upendra: No. Nor were they recommended. They were just... If you want to call them allopathic nutrients... No medicines.

Dr. Kapoor: No, but were those syrups given?

Upendra: No.

Dr. Kapoor: No.

Bhavananda: What was given yesterday?

Upendra: Yesterday the bhinbukshu[?] cream. Yes, that was given, the green bottle, in the bottle up there. Yesterday barley water in the morning with a little bit of Complan. And after that, some cough developed, and then the doctor came and they gave some of that medicine with mosambi juice.

Brahmananda: Which medicine?

Upendra: The Ayurvedic. The vaidya.

Dr. Kapoor: Accha. Accha.

Upendra: I don't know what it is. He had grape, glucose and whey. Then he had this vitamin here, this one. Then he had some more medicine with mosambi juice, and that was it yesterday.

Hari-sauri: This is vitamins.

Rupanuga: It doesn't say there's any alcohol in it.

Upendra: There isn't... They're Shaklee products.

Rupanuga: One thing, Srila Prabhupada, even after fasting for a long time, even some sugar, even sweets make intoxication in the system. Glucose and the sweet juices, fruit juices, this may make a little intoxication.

Upendra: Yes, this morning he had grape, glucose and one spoonful of that instant protein. That would have been really energetic.

Dr. Kapoor: This bottle is pure vitamins or something else?

Brahmananda: Yes. There's no...

Dr. Kapoor: No alcohol.

Brahmananda: No.

Rupanuga: Madhava, can you explain to Srila Prabhupada who the speakers are?

Madhava: So, Srila Prabhupada, Svarupa Damodara has invited scientists from Delhi University...

Brahmananda: Who will speak? Who will be the speakers?

Madhava: I think Dr. Mishra is coming to speak, and Dr....

Dr. Kapoor: Which Dr. Mishra?

Madhava: Is that R.K.? R.K. I haven't spoken to him myself. He's going to be speaking on Sunday.

Brahmananda: What are these cards?

Madhava: These are the same names as the list.

Dr. Kapoor: Where is he from?

Madhava: He's from Delhi University, I believe.

Dr. Kapoor: Which department?

Madhava: No. He's from the AIIMS, the All-India Institute of Medical Science. He's head of the Biophysics department. There was a Dr. Kavoor, I believe his name was. Kavoor?

Dr. Kapoor: Where? From here?

Brahmananda: From Sri Lanka.

Madhava: No, no. That was... [laughter] Let's see. He was...

Jayadvaita: He can be invited to be kicked with shoes.

Madhava: Maybe it was Kival. No, here it is, Kapil. He's from Delhi University. He's in the Botany department.

Dr. Kapoor: Botany department. He's going to speak?

Madhava: He's going to speak.

Rupanuga: Then there's some opposing.

Madhava: There's one... Yes. I think it was Dr. Mishra who was going to give some ideas of his own that were a little different from ours.

Dr. Kapoor: Dr. Mishra from Delhi University. Physics department.

Madhava: Yes. Biophysics. He was going to give a talk on the theory of living states.

Dr. Kapoor: Are any of those people from the Philosophy department of Delhi University, are they going to speak?

Madhava: There was some coming from the Philosophy department, but I don't think they're going to speak. There was one who's going to speak on the limitations of science. I don't know if his name is listed here. Oh, yes, here it is, Dr. Ramaya. He's going to speak on the limitations of scientific method.

Dr. Kapoor: Scientific method. Is he a philosopher or a scientist?

Madhava: It doesn't say that. Biochemistry.

Dr. Kapoor: Biochemistry.

Prabhupada: We are concerned with the scientists.

Brahmananda: Yes, these are all scientists. They're philosophers?

Madhava: This one philosopher is coming.

Dr. Kapoor: Ah, no, but is any of the philosophers going to speak?

Madhava: No.

Dr. Kapoor: So you'll not go to the root of the problem, you see. It will be something superficial.

Madhava: We consider the philosophers to be superficial. They have no evidence to back up their words.

Dr. Kapoor: [laughing] That can be a subject for discussion by itself. All the modern scientists are taking to philosophy, because there comes a stage in scientific investigation, you see, where you cannot but philosophize. You see?

Madhava: Yes. But the philosophers cannot continue in their own speculations.

Dr. Kapoor: What is philosophy? Philosophy is not thinking in vacuum. Philosophy is systematic thinking. It is systematic thinking. The scientists must be systematic. And...

Prabhupada: The scientists... Without systematic, how it is science?

Dr. Kapoor: Yes. And the science is basically unsystematic in the fact that it starts with certain assumptions, which by itself is unscientific. Why should you start with certain assumptions? Philosophy does not commit that. Philosophy... I don't raise the questions. You see? Why do you believe that matter is ultimate? Why do you believe that spirit and time are ultimate? Science believes in assumptions. Philosophy has not taken for granted. Very systematic thinking, really. Therefore I say you'll not go to the root of the matter. It will be just superficial things.

Madhava: We are trying to apply both. The science and the philosophy. We are adding the philosophy into this science.

Dr. Kapoor: Yes, both. As a matter of fact, there is no watertight compartment. They're not simply a part of each. They're dovetailed. Science penetrates into philosophy, you see?

Rupanuga: But the root of the problem practically is whether life comes from matter and matter comes from life, and that is the basic theme...

Dr. Kapoor: That is the basic theme, but the philosopher will ask the question, "You must first be very clear in your mind about these basic concepts, 'What is life and what is matter?' " You may have some idea about life. Because we are life ourselves, we have some experience, some idea of life. But what is matter? No scientist has any clear conception of matter.

Prabhupada: Matter has no consciousness.

Brahmananda: But matter has no consciousness.

Dr. Kapoor: Matter has no consciousness, but what exactly it is? And you see, I tell you, matter has no consciousness-this is also an assumption. You see? The analysis of matter has revealed to the scientist, the physicist, that what remains in the ultimate analysis is at least not matter.

Prabhupada: Matter, when you combine together, reveals some reaction. That's all.

Brahmananda: When you combine matter together, it just gives some reaction.

Dr. Kapoor: True, but the question remains...

Prabhupada: Just like soda, acid and soda. Mixed together, there will be effervescence. That is matter. And life means gives impetus: "Do this." It is not comparable thing.

Upendra: Time for giving him this juice, so... [break]

Prabhupada: A child can speak sensibly, "Mother, give me this." But soda, alkaline and acid, mixed, it can give some dead effervescence.

Dr. Kapoor: Matter can produce matter only.

Prabhupada: That's all. It has no sense.

Dr. Kapoor: Another form of matter, that is all.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Kapoor: Matter cannot produce life.

Prabhupada: Yes. A third matter. That is matter. You can take matter and... Tejo-vari-mrd-vinimayam. Mix earth with water, and put it into fire, and then make a building. But matter automatically cannot do it. This is...

Dr. Kapoor: Yes. It's mind that manipulates matter.

Prabhupada: Matter cannot have mind, neither consciousness nor impetus.

Dr. Kapoor: But this philosophical discussion strains you, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Brahmananda: He's saying you are strained by this philosophical discussion we're having.

Prabhupada: No. It is nonsense that matter gives life. That we want to prove. Matter has no... Matter, I have studied it. Life is superior energy. Apareyam. This matter is useless. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham manah [Bg 7.4]. They are inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakrtim. Another, yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg 7.5]. That is actually governing the whole universe. They are defying this apareyam me prakr..., para. They are not accepting. The scientists are speculators, most of them. Philosopher means materially thinking.

Brahmananda: Materially...

Prabhupada: Thinking.

Brahmananda: Thinking.

Dr. Kapoor: So I think I should take leave, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: All right.

Dr. Kapoor: If I stay on, we'll continue to speak.

Brahmananda: So they are getting now free transportation. "For all invited guests-food, lodging, and transportation between Delhi and Agra, and the conference site will be arranged free of charge." So these are all confirmations, people's signatures.

Dr. Kapoor: I see.

Prabhupada: Who is giving free?

Brahmananda: We are giving free transportation, lodging and food.

Dr. Kapoor: Free transportation from Delhi. Not from other places.

Brahmananda: No, just Agra and Delhi. I think everyone is invited from these two places. These have been mailed in? Or our men have gone?

Madhava: They have been mailed in.

Brahmananda: These are mailed replies. These have been posted invitations.

Madhava: They expect about 150 people altogether.

Dr. Kapoor: Anyway, it's going to be an interesting thing, the first of its kind in Vrndavana.

Brahmananda: I think in the... This is the first conference you've had?

Madhava: Yes.

Brahmananda: It's the first in the world.

Rupanuga: First time.

Dr. Kapoor: First in the world. [laughs]

Brahmananda: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. [break] Atreya Rsi and Parivrajakacarya Swami are here.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Hari-sauri: They brought you a big plate of fruits and things, from Tehran.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Atreya Rsi: This is sweet lemon.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Atreya Rsi: This is sweet lemon. It is sweet lemon. The juice is very sweet.

Prabhupada: Now give me.

Upendra: Some of the juice.

Atreya Rsi: These are plums. They could be skinned and the drink is very good for you, soft.

Upendra: Juice comes from them?

Atreya Rsi: Yes. It's very, very good for digestion.

Prabhupada: Sit down.

Parivrajakacarya: Srila Prabhupada? This is a pre-publication copy of our first magazine in Persian language.

Prabhupada: This is Persian language?

Parivrajakacarya: Persian, yes.

Atreya Rsi: Parsi, Parsi.

Brahmananda: This is the name of it here?

Atreya Rsi: Yes. The name is "Bhakti."

Parivrajakacarya: The name is "Bhakti."

Prabhupada: I understand that you go to the royal family and talk with them for hours. So it is very good sign.

Parivrajakacarya: Yes. There's... Some people in their family are very good, and they're very interested in learning about Bhagavad-gita, Krsna consciousness. They can do... They can do very good things for the world if they simply have knowledge of what to do. So we're trying to preach to intelligent people.

Prabhupada: Yes, intelligent. Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah [Bg 3.21]. What intelligent man takes up, so ordinary man, ordinary generally follow. Bhagavad-gita is meant for rajarsi, not for foolish. Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg 4.2]. Not for a so-called loafer class. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham [Bg 4.1]. That is being mistaken. Bhagavad-gita should be taught to such royal family, and if they take up, others will take up. Hmm? Atreya Rsi?

Atreya Rsi: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Do you follow?

Atreya Rsi: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: This is a good chance that you have got, a connection with royal family, and if you turn them to saintly, then the work is successful. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham [Bg 4.1]. Not that third-class foolish can understand what is Bhagavad-gita. The same building I went to see?

Atreya Rsi: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Jaya. That building now is a restaurant. We have many people every night come and take prasadam. About seventy to a hundred people come.

Prabhupada: What do you supply?

Hari-sauri: What do you supply?

Atreya Rsi: We give them one thali-two vegetables, dal, rice, salad...

Prabhupada: One thali? Thali?

Atreya Rsi: One full thali.

Hari-sauri: Plate.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Atreya Rsi: Thali of prasadam. And sweet. And then we give them some herbal tea and dessert and sometimes fruits.

Prabhupada: They like it.

Atreya Rsi: They like it very much. Nandarani Prabhu and Dayananda Prabhu are managing.

Prabhupada: They are both intelligent.

Atreya Rsi: Yes. They are working very hard.

Prabhupada: And they are very sincere. What do you charge?

Parivrajakacarya: About sixteen rupees, fifteen tomans. It is very little price. It's very small.

Prabhupada: For one plate?

Atreya Rsi: One plate. Very reasonable price. But many people give donations. And many of them take the books. We have your books. They take, and they read it, and they love it.

Prabhupada: Success.

Hari-sauri: What kind of people do you get?

Prabhupada: High class.

Atreya Rsi: Higher class. Very intelligent, educated...

Prabhupada: The low class, they purchase that big roti. [laughs] That's all.

Atreya Rsi: Big chapati.

Prabhupada: They cannot come to the restaurant.

Parivrajakacarya: No.

Atreya Rsi: Some people even come, higher class people, and work. They give their service in the restaurant. They wash dishes. They serve tables. We engage them in bhakti-yoga.

Brahmananda: What's the name of the restaurant?

Atreya Rsi: Govinda.

Prabhupada: So you make good profit.

Atreya Rsi: It's your mercy, Srila Prabhupada. [Prabhupada chuckles] They respect you a lot in Tehran. The royalty respects you. The businessmen respect you. They really respect Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Persian civilization, very high, Aryan civilization.

Atreya Rsi: There was this Persian boy who was translating Bhagavad-gita. He had come with me last month to Vrndavana to have your darsana. Then you had gone to London.

Prabhupada: Anyway, things are going nice-slow but sure. You have got this Persian civilization and he has got the African. [laughter] Black and white.

Bhakti-caru: Srila Prabhupada? [Transl. There is a medicine, would you take it now?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Whenever the medicines are to be given, as the doctor prescribed, milk etc. you prepare properly and give it to me.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Okay, Srila Prabhupada.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Whatever you give me now, I will take whether I live or die. I am almost dead.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. No, Srila Prabhupada. Then what will happen to us?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Nothing is left. Only some material bones are left. All of you will stay on.]

Bhakti-caru: Prabhupada likes to sit up.

Prabhupada: [break] ...coming with the report of Persia and...

Hari-sauri: He's saying he's very much pleased when you gave the report of Persia.

Atreya Rsi: You should come and visit us, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I am ready to go immediately.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya. You will come, Srila Prabhupada. There are millions of people waiting for you.

Prabhupada: And now you have to take a bundle of bones. That is the difficulty. There is nothing... Bundle of bone.

Bhakti-caru: Bone or flesh, your body is divine, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Bone is being separated from life. Here, by example, the matter is different from life. Matter is inferior; life is superior. From my life you can... Why the Persian people love me?

Atreya Rsi: They respect your philosophy, Srila Prabhupada. They understand the philosophy. They respect the philosophy.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Atreya Rsi: They respect chanting. They see that your boys are pious and they're chanting the names of God and they're doing wonderful things, and they respect it. They see your books, wonderful philosophy, always glorifying God. They respect God. They're religious.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Atreya Rsi: And they know that nobody else is doing this.

Prabhupada: Persians, they are Aryans. When they were attacked by the Muhammadans they fled from Persia to India. [break]

Atreya Rsi: ...and they come regularly. Some of them come every night to take prasadam, respectful, very nice Parsis who have come back from India to Iran.

Prabhupada: Oh. Some of them gone there.

Atreya Rsi: Yes. They have come back because there are very good jobs, and government is encouraging them to come back. So they come back.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Atreya Rsi: And actually Persians have very high philosophy, but they don't have no one who will engage them in devotional service. And the most intelligent ones see that you are actually engaging people in devotional service. And there is no one-no one in Iran-despite their high philosophies, who is engaging anybody in devotional service. So they see the results, and that's why they respect you.

Prabhupada: So as soon as I get opportunity, I shall go and meet them.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Atreya Rsi: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada. [break]

Prabhupada: Very good chance.

Parivrajakacarya: These people, they are the door to people all over the world who are rulers, because they are the closest friends of King Khalid of Saudi Arabia, King Hussein of Jordan, King Constantine and Queen Tina of Greece. They know all over the world this whole set of rulers who have great opulence and great intelligence and who simply lack spiritual knowledge.

Prabhupada: Guidance.

Parivrajakacarya: They lack guidance. They lack brahmanas. Instead, they have cunning ministers who simply want to have the same opulences as they have. But these are the people, they can change the world.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Parivrajakacarya: If we can only give them philosophy, they can do the...

Prabhupada: Raja. And if we turn them rsi, then our mission is fulfilled. Very good. Now you have started your own business.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. With your blessing. The business is not important, but it is a medium for Krsna consciousness. My secretary is already a devotee, and the other people are also becoming interested. The goal is to have a Krsna conscious group working in the society.

Prabhupada: Go very slowly. Never mind. You are all young men. All right. Go on chanting.

[kirtana] [break] [end]