770105R2.BOM

Prabhupada: Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. And to save them is paropakara, real welfare. [break]

Trivikrama: ...don't want to be saved.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. But our duty is to try. [break]

Devotee (1): ...according to an official in the Central Railway.

Prabhupada: So how many tickets we have got?

Devotee (1): We've got twenty tickets for the devotees in second class, plus two for yourself and Hari-sauri in first class.

Mr. Gupta: Well it's not the consideration of tickets, it's just on the midnight of 31st and 1st. When I was very disturbed, I just got into the train for a drive, being a railway man, and there was just some intuition that I came here and I had your darsana.

Prabhupada: When you came?

Mr. Gupta: On the 31st and 1st. On the 1st morning. And from that I... As happens to be, I've been coming every day.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Mr. Gupta: On the 2nd you were kind enough to autograph the Gita...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. I remember.

Mr. Gupta: ...which I purchased from here.

Prabhupada: You are reading Bhagavad-gita?

Mr. Gupta: I have not started reading that one. I'm reading the Sri Iso...

Prabhupada: Isopanisad.

Mr. Gupta: Isopanisad. I read the other Gita. But after I finish this, then I'll start your edition. I have read Gita, the ordinary one from Gita Press, Gorakhpur. I've read Dr. Radhakrishna in portion; Dr. Rajagopalachari. I hope to gain something more.

Prabhupada: The difference between other Gita and our Gita... We therefore said, "As It Is." No interpretation. That is the disaster. Authority, Krsna, and to interpret on His word, this is very disastrous.

Mr. Gupta: Lord Krsna has been good to me right from my childhood. I was brought up in a good, religious family. I have always been able to have my way. I think that's what's wrong. I get very strong desires, likes, dislikes. I have been successful, very, very successful, in material sense, in work.

Prabhupada: Now...

Mr. Gupta: I want to... Doesn't leave me with peace.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Hare Krsna. What is your full name?

Mr. Gupta: Rabindranath Gupta. I'm not a Bengali. I belong to Delhi. I've lived eight years in Bengal, Chittaranjan, Durgapur, Munger.

Prabhupada: Oh. So you can speak in Bengali.

Mr. Gupta: I can understand. I mean [Transl. I cannot speak Bengali very well, but I can understand.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's enough.] Bengali is not at all very difficult.

Mr. Gupta: No, not at all. Once upon a time I could read and write. But it's just out of touch.

Prabhupada: The Calcutta Marwaris, they speak very fluently. Yes.

Mr. Gupta: Oh, beautifully. Fluently. Being in railways I've had about eight cross-country transfers-Rajkot, Ajmer, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Allahabad. So I know as much of Gujarati and Marathi too.

Prabhupada: Rajastani?

Mr. Gupta: Rajastani. Hindi is the mother tongue for Rajastani.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hindi is understood everywhere.

[break] ...Bhagavad-gita, what you have learned?

Mr. Gupta: The only thing that I have been able to learn is we... I was told so, quite, by keeping our mind and heart strict, we should do our work as belonging to grhastha asrama as best as possible. But the human beings tend to twist "as best as possible" in their own way. And that... When the realization comes... [break]

Prabhupada: Do you realize that the modern civilization is misguided?

[break] ...is the quintessence of Bhagavad-gita. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. Glanih. The people are misguided. [greets Dr. Patel] Hare Krsna. Jaya. He's Dr. Patel. He's Mr. Gupta, a railway officer. He arranged for our tickets.

Dr. Patel: You are going by plane or by car?

Prabhupada: Train.

Dr. Patel: You are going also by train? It will be too much strain.

Prabhupada: No, first class is all right.

Dr. Patel: Even first class. Because it takes more than thirty-six hours to reach...

Prabhupada: No, twenty-four hours.

Dr. Patel: ...by car, by Calcutta from here, no? Or Kashi Express.

Mr. Gupta: Yes, sir. Twenty-four hours.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express?

Mr. Gupta: Kashi Express. Kashi Express reaches in the morning just at one...

Dr. Patel: I had gone by Kashi Express. It reached... From here it starts in the evening, and there it reaches Allahabad in the evening.

Mr. Gupta: That is Allahabad Mail. That's Calcutta Mail. Kashi Express leaves at 6:45 in the morning from Dadar, and reaches at the same time next morning.

Prabhupada: So we have to get the train from Dadar.

Mr. Gupta: Yes.

Prabhupada: Dadar is nearer.

Mr. Gupta: Dadar is nearer.

Dr. Patel: It must be stopping at Thana also. No?

Mr. Gupta: We had the option of going either on 10th night or 11th morning. But we preferred 11th morning for the same reason.

Prabhupada: 10th night means?

Mr. Gupta: By Calcutta Mail, or there's a special leaving for Allahabad. There's a special train. We are running Kumbha-mela specials.

Prabhupada: This one.

Mr. Gupta: This one is a regular train. This is Varanasi Express.

Dr. Patel: A special must not have first class. Has it?

Mr. Gupta: Special has first class.

Dr. Patel: That special will be better then.

Mr. Gupta: No, it won't be, because it leaves on 10th night, and it will only go to Naini. It won't go to Allahabad.

Dr. Patel: Isn't it faster than the...

Prabhupada: You have to change again. From Naini you have to change.

Mr. Gupta: You see, the Central Railway, we are taking pilgrims only to Naini and back. We are moving about a million passengers from this area.

Prabhupada: From Naini they are going to the Kumbha-mela.

Mr. Gupta: The Naini, yes. It's a triangle. So from Naini they will go to Kumbha-mela, come back to Naini, and come back this side.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That's right.

Dr. Patel: How far Naini is from Allahabad?

Mr. Gupta: Naini, railway station-wise is five miles from Allahabad. But people who have to go to Sangam just at the bridge at the bank of the river... [break]

Prabhupada: It is not far away from the Sam... It is nearer. Rather, Allahabad main station is far away.

Mr. Gupta: You see, the way railways have organized it, Eastern Railway will...

Prabhupada: So Naini, you are crossing the river or this side of the river?

Mr. Gupta: By special, we will not cross the river. By through-going trains, we will cross the river.

Dr. Patel: If you cross the river, then you go to Allahabad main station.

Mr. Gupta: That's right. So Varanasi Express will go to main station. That special would not have gone to main station. It would have caused you inconvenience.

Prabhupada: I see. So they will receive from Allahabad station, our men?

Dr. Patel: You have to tell them to go to main.

Hari-sauri: We'll have to telegram to Gurudasa to tell when we're coming.

Dr. Patel: There will be huge, I mean, traffic blocking and all those things. No? [break]

Prabhupada: Fifty years before, when I was in Allahabad, 1920s, there was Kumbha-mela. Then forty lakhs people came. Fifty years ago.

Dr. Patel: With poor transport then. That transport was not so efficient as it is today, no? More trains and more...

Prabhupada: No, the Bombay Mail was there, and I think this Kashi Express was not there.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express is a new.

Prabhupada: Not very new. That is also not very...

Mr. Gupta: About fifteen years old.

Prabhupada: Fifteen years.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express goes to Allahabad and comes back to Benares. I have gone by that train.

Mr. Gupta: Actually Kashi Express was introduced before last Kumbha-mela.

Prabhupada: No, no. No, Kashi Express goes to Allahabad; then, from Allahabad, there is a straight line from Benares..., to Benares. Then it goes to Mughal Sarai. Kashi Express, from... It goes up to Kashi or not?

Mr. Gupta: Up to Kashi.

Dr. Patel: And how long are you going to stay there, sir?

Prabhupada: As long as Prayagadeva.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Mela will not… After mela you will come back?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It lasts at least for one month.]

Dr. Patel: [Transl. One month?]

Prabhupada: No, I'm not going to stay.

Dr. Patel: It is very cold, huh? There will be extreme cold this season. And to take bath in confluence in this biting cold of this cold water.

Prabhupada: Sometimes I was taking.

Dr. Patel: You should take warm-water bath.

Prabhupada: In 1925 I was taking. I was touching the water, and it was cutting.

Dr. Patel: Even my. It was cutting too much.

Prabhupada: [chuckles] And as soon as I take a dip, everything is warm.

Dr. Patel: No, but for now it is not right.

Prabhupada: It is very nice.

Trivikrama: Everything is numb.

Prabhupada: And immediately warm, as you take.

Trivikrama: Oh, warm.

Dr. Patel: That is all the place, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. So long as you do not take dip, it is so pinching, it is cutting your body. And as soon as you get a dip-one, two, three, bas. Immediately you are warm.

Dr. Patel: No, but now, at this age of yours.

Prabhupada: No, now...

Dr. Patel: You should warm the water and take water from confluence, bring in the tent, warm it up and take a bath. Or you get a pot of water here and daily put two drops in the bucket and take bath then. [laughs] My wife was doing this. She used to put two drops of Gaṅga water in...

Prabhupada: Now, if I take such dip I may be paralyzed.

Dr. Patel: Oh, yes. One man had actually died in Kashi Benares by dipping in the Gaṅga. This time it will be extreme cold. The water in Gaṅga is very cold even in summer, sir, huh? Summer also it is very...

Prabhupada: Always. Because it is coming directly from Himalaya. Up to Prayaga, pure-no mixture. And then Yamuna...

Mr. Gupta: And Gaṅga mix together.

Prabhupada: Mix. They say Sarasvati also.

Dr. Patel: Sarasvati is the subterranean river. They call Sarasvati everywhere, you know. "Hindu mythological river."

Trivikrama: Mythological?

Dr. Patel: Yes, it is mythological. It is all subterranean water. Here's Sarasvati. You got Sarasvati in Gujarat also.

Prabhupada: No, there is Sarasvati

Dr. Patel: You get Sarasvati in Maharastra also-everywhere. [laughs]

Trivikrama: This is Dr. Patel. I heard him speaking two years ago, because a tape came. At the time you were..., you and Dr. Patel, you were having very heated conversations. But now I see he is subdued. [chuckles]

Dr. Patel: [laughs] In these two years I have made an extensive study of the Vaisnava cult, all the three branches of main Vaisnavas, and I think, I think, sir, that... I have studied Saṅkara also extensively, and I think Saṅkara is misunderstood very much. What is your opinion?

Prabhupada: No, no, not misunderstood. He made himself misunderstood.

Dr. Patel: But they all misunderstand the real purport of his...

Prabhupada: Mayavadam asac... He has to preach this Mayavada. He has to present himself in that way. Otherwise he is Vaisnava. Mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate [Padma Purana].

Dr. Patel: Pracchanna Buddha, Saṅkaracarya.

Prabhupada: Mayaiva gaditam devi kalau brahmana-murtina [Padma Purana Uttara-khanda 25.7].

[break]

Dr. Patel: The most important group in all Vaisnavas. Vaisnava-bhakti-sat-saṅga anyatha yanti vido apy adhah. Even well-versed man will come down if he does not understand. All the branches of, I mean, Vaisnavism, they give the same comment.

Prabhupada: Satam prasaṅgan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Without sat-saṅga, nobody can understand Krsna. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg 18.55].

Dr. Patel: Swami Narayana has mentioned this such,

Even the highest bhaktas, the brahma-vid-bhaktas, they should not be worshiped other than Krsna, and He is also highest. But the followers, you know what they are doing.

Prabhupada: They are not followers. If they do not follow their guru, then what kind of follower?

Dr. Patel: Same with the Vallabhacarya's followers.

Prabhupada: Everywhere. Unless guru trains the disciple rightly, there will be difficulty.

Dr. Patel: Their chief belief is that God comes in the form of the guru, and so guru should be worshiped as God even after his death. God comes in the form of guru...

Prabhupada: And kick out God. And kick out God.

Dr. Patel: That is the thing. "God comes in the form of guru" is all right. So yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23]. Otherwise you cannot get...

Prabhupada: Guru is manifestation of God, but that does not mean we kick out God.

Dr. Patel: They are kicking over. And this fellow, this Ganeshpuri, they are worshiping that statue of their own, this guru only.

Mr. Gupta: That's a common statement also. Guru govinda dou khare, kake lagun paya, balihari guru apne govinda diyo bataya. [Poet Kabir]

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Mr. Gupta: I think that's the gist of the guru and Bhagavan.

Dr. Patel: Those people who consider guru in the place of God during his, I mean, imparting of knowledge to you... Otherwise you won't get the knowledge.

Otherwise all those things will not..., will not..., will never remain. You see? Am I right or wrong, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes. Without guru we cannot approach God. That does not mean you shall reject...

Dr. Patel: Guru's guru.

Prabhupada: Evam parampara-praptam [Bg 4.2].

Trivikrama: Imam rajarsayo viduh. [break]

Dr. Patel: Tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah. Mahatma is the guru.

Prabhupada: Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc Madhya 19.151], Caitanya Mahaprabhu. "By guru's mercy and Krsna's mercy, one can enter into bhakti-marga." Without guru's mercy you cannot, and without Krsna's mercy also you cannot. Krsna is situated within your heart, and if you are sincere, Krsna will give you the right guru. And then guru's..., by guru's mercy you'll understand Krsna. This is the process.

Mr. Gupta: For our grhastha asrama in kali-yuga, when at times of anger gets temporarily the better of you, what is the guidance which can bring you back to normality? Because in anger you can do a lot of things. Because you lose..., spontaneously you lose your temper. Though it can be for the good...

Prabhupada: When you can conquer over your anger, then you become gosvami. Vaco vegam krodha-vegam. Krodha-vegam. Manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah prthivim sa sisyat . A guru... One cannot become guru who has no control over these things: vaco vegam, the urge of speaking nonsense, vaco vegam; krodha-vegam, the urge of anger; manasa-vegam, urge of mind; udara-vegam, urge of the belly; upastha-vegam, urge of the genital. In this way, all the six vegas, one who can control, he is fit for becoming guru.

Dr. Patel: Kama, krodha, and lobha. It can be only one... If you have, you understand the greatness of God and your mind perpetually in the sacred feet of God, then you don't have this kama, krodha and lobha. That is what other acaryas also say.

Prabhupada: Vaco vegam krodha-vegam udara-vegam manasa-vegam, etan vegan. The six vegas, one who can control, he is gosvami. Svami means master, and go means indriyas.

Dr. Patel: Kama krodha lobha matsara. Moha. Matsara. Six.

Mr. Gupta: Guruji, the problem which I am putting as a common man is... I am...

Prabhupada: It is not for the common man. Common man has to learn under the discipline of guru. You cannot expect all these things from a common man.

Mr. Gupta: Yes. That is what I want to learn.

Prabhupada: It is... It is...When you actually control all of these things, then you are not common man; you are representative of Krsna. Then you can preach Krsna's philosophy.

Dr. Patel: There is one sloka: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksa... [Bg 18.66]. This is papa-kama, krodha and lobha. He will relieve you from that papa if you completely surrender. That is, I mean, the...

Prabhupada: Papa-everything. In the material world, whatever you do, that is papa. In the material world, "This is papa, this is punya"-this is mental concoction. Everything is papa. Dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana. [Cc. Antya 4.176] The world of duality, material world, we have manufactured something, "This is good; this is bad," "This is moral; this is immoral." But Caitanya-caritamrta author said, "These are all mental concoction. Everything is the same-material." Material means bad. But we have made some convention: "This is good; this is bad."

Mr. Gupta: By God's grace I'm a very successful man. I'm youngest chief mechanical engineer on the Central Railway. I know kama, krodha, lobha, moha. All are, taken to extreme, it's papa. I know it. But when they overcome in the heat of the moment, then you're not able to retract yourself. It's only when...

Dr. Patel: Then... Then...

Prabhupada: No, let him. That you have to practice: how to use kama, krodha. That is described by Narottama dasa Thakura: kama-krsna kamarpane. [Sri Prema-bhakti-candrika. Song 3, stanza 10] Kama means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kama. So convert it, this strong desire, for Krsna's activities. Kama-krsna kamarpane. 'Krodha' bhakta-dvesi-jane: and persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kama, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it. Just like Hanuman.

He became very angry, and he set fire in the Laṅka. Unless one is very angry, he cannot do that. But that krodha was applied to the demon. 'Krodha' bhakta-dvesi-jane. So we can utilize kama, krodha, moha, bewilderment. When we cannot find out a bhakta, then we should be bewildered. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam [Sri Siksastaka 7]. So therefore bhakti process means that everything has to be purified. Krodha, Hanuman's krodha, to set fire Laṅka, it is purified krodha. But they cannot understand the krodha, how it is purified. But krodha can be purified.

When it is bhakta-dvesi-jane... Those who are envious of God and His devotees, upon them you should be always angry. "No, I have become a bhakta. I cannot be..." Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed by His example. He said, trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna . But when Nityananda Prabhu was injured, He became so angry, He immediately said, "Bring My cakra. I shall kill the Jagai-Madhai." So at that time He's not trnad api sunicena [Sri Siksastaka 7]. That is krodha bhakta-dvesi. So we have this kama, krodha, moha, everything, whatever sense activity we have got. When they are utilized for Krsna, then it is purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena [Cc Madhya 19.170]. Now there is fight... Just like political fight. In the political fight both the parties, they are trying to get supremacy of their own sense gratification. But here the fight, Rama-Ravana, Hanuman's krodha was not for himself.

He did not want the Laṅka kingdom. But because Ramacandra wanted that "This man should be punished," he cooperated: "Yes." This is spiritual. In this way, when we purify all our activities, all our sensual activities, then it is right. Otherwise... Just like Arjuna: he purified his senses. A Vaisnava is naturally nonviolent, but in order to satisfy Krsna, he fought. That is purified. So we have to purify. Our activities cannot be stopped. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: All activities done for sake of Krsna, or God, are the real [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Mad-arthe. Mat-para. Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam... [Bg 7.1]. This is yoga. Yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. Yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. When you take shelter... But these Mayavadis... Where is mad-asrayah? "He is nirakara." So there is no asraya. So they cannot perform this yoga because there is no mad-asrayah.

Asraya laiya bhaje krsna tare nahi tyaje. [Prarthana. Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura. Song 43, stanza 1.] If one takes shelter of Krsna and he works under His direction, then he's never forsaken or rejected by Him. He's always under the protection of Krsna. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg 9.31]. So that should be our duty. We shall act only to the direction of Krsna. Then our activities are purified, and then we are liberated.

Trivikrama: That requires a guru.

Prabhupada: Unless guru, how you know? Guru is the representative of Krsna. We cannot directly meet Krsna at the present moment. So this is called vyavasayatmika buddhi. [Bg 2.41] If we work under the direction of the representative of Krsna, that is perfect. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya aikya, ara na kariha mane asa. [Sri Prema-bhakti-candrika Song 1, stanza 2] You are singing daily. Whatever guru has said, take it seriously. Don't manufacture your ideas. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya aikya, ara na kariha mane asa.

Mr. Gupta: Just as you have given an example of krodha by Lord Hanuman in burning Laṅka, are there any such instances where lobha could also be personified Lord Krsna's desire?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Just like gopis. They were always hankering, "When we shall see Krsna? When we shall see Krsna? When I shall...? When I shall meet?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me [Sri Siksastaka 7]: "Oh, I see everything vacant without Govinda." This is ecstasy of lobha-to meet Krsna. So when you will be strongly hankering after Krsna, lobha, greedy, or devotee, then lobha is properly utilized.

Dr. Patel: When Krsna disappeared from rasa, what they did?

Prabhupada: There are so many instances. You can utilize your hankering for Krsna and His devotees.

Trivikrama: There's one verse like that, ekalam mulyam lobha...

Prabhupada: Laulyam ekalam mulyam [Cc Madhya 8.70].

Trivikrama: Ah, yes.

Prabhupada: Laulyam, yes, right. That is greediness. Laulyam. The verse is by Rupa Gosvami. He advises, krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita matih kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "This Krsna consciousness, you purchase. If it is available somewhere, immediately purchase it." So the next question is: if you want to purchase something, you must pay the price.

So therefore he said that "The price is laulyam, greediness: How I shall become Krsna conscious?" That is price: "How I shall?" "Oh, that I can very easily." No. Na janma-koti-sukrtair labhyate: "If one has done pious activities for many, many births, he also cannot have this greediness." It is so rare. But if you have got that greediness, you get Krsna.

Trivikrama: Intense greediness.

Prabhupada: Intense greediness. So one may think, "Oh, I can be very greedy." So the answer is na janma-koti-sukrtair labhyate.

Mr. Gupta: If a human being can try repeatedly, showing kama, krodha, lobha, moha... He keeps on trying to get over it. He keeps on...

Prabhupada: That is negative side.

Mr. Gupta: ...and again keeps on trying...

Prabhupada: That is negative side. First of all... Just like mauna...

[break] Why maunam? There is no need of maunam. You have to chant: kirtaniyah sada [Sri Siksastaka 7]. So there is negative side and positive. One who has no information of the positive side, they simply take the negative side. Brahma satyam jagan mithya. Jagan mithya, it is all right, but where is that brahma satyam?

That brahma satyam is here, when you are fully engaged in serving. Brahma satyam does not mean I simply make negative this, and there is no engagement. That brahma satyam will not endure. You'll fall down. Because you are active. If you have no engagement, then you fall down again. Just like a child, he is engaged in playing always, but engage him in studying. If he gets little interest, then automatically he gives up playing. But if you simply stop playing, then he will become mad. Because activity is there.

These Mayavadi philosophers, they do not know this. They simply take the negative thing-this material engagement, zero, Buddha philosophy, nirvana. And that nirvana is another word, nirvisesa. That will not help us. There must be varieties and there must be positive life, and that is bhakti. So without bhakti you cannot stop your nonsense activities, neither...

Dr. Patel: Isvara-parijanat, citta-vrtti-nirodhah mad jivan… But even you get the same thing by isvara-parijanat[?]. So Vaisnava cult is easier than getting the mind blank and then getting all in the [indistinct]. Because here your mind is engaged to Lord Himself. It is... We call as samadhi.

Prabhupada: Param drstva nivartate [Bg 2.59]. Just like a man is observing Ekadasi, fasting. Another, in the hospital, he's also fasting. So these two fastings, they are different.

Dr. Patel: Here fasting of all the senses and applying to God.

Prabhupada: For satisfaction of Krsna. And there, compulsory fasting, but he has got desire. So param drstva nivartate. When you get better taste, when you stop this nonsense for better taste, that is positive. Artificially if you do, it will not benefit.

Dr. Patel: Sir, Ekadasi, according to the Puranas and the stories, all the eleven senses should be withdrawn from their sense objects...

Prabhupada: No, Ekadasi, that is automatically. Ekadasi is one of the process for [Transl. Are you leaving or what?]

Indian man: [Transl. No, he had some work. He has to deliver a letter to someone who is coming from Punjab.]

Indian lady: [Transl. I have come.]

Indian man: [Transl. I see. So let me give you the letter. I phoned him that we will come around 7o' clock.]

Indian lady: [Transl. Okay. One minute.] May I ask one question? I'm running my own school in Hoshiarpur, and it is up to 8th -class and I want to convert it into gurukula. How I can make arrangements for the books and that examination or the students can take valid certificate and take examination from recognized board? We should make something.

Prabhupada: Running on...? What is that school?

Indian lady: All Boys school, English-medium.

Prabhupada: But if you have to work under government regulation, then you cannot do it. You won't get government help.

Indian lady: But I want to convert it into gurukula on the basis of Hare Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Our gurukula means how to teach them to become self-controlled. That is first business. This literary education secondary, grammar secondary. The first necessity how to create them santa, danta, self-controlled.

Indian lady: But we work from Punjab Board and education board...

Prabhupada: And therefore I say, if you have to work under government control, it is very difficult. If you can work independently, then it is possible.

Indian lady: It is independent. I'm independent. I'm doing everything.

Prabhupada: No, if you take government help...

Indian lady: But the students go for examination in the board only.

Prabhupada: Examination or no examination, if you..., they practice the rules, that is sufficient examination. Suppose one of the items, that one has to rise early in the morning. So if one is rising early in the morning, then what is the examination? That is already examined. If one has to rise early in the morning, attend the maṅgala-arati, sitting in the class and reading Bhagavad-gita, chanting Hare Krsna... These are all practical. There is no need of examination. If he is doing, then it is examination passed.

Indian lady: But the parents want certificate.

Prabhupada: Therefore, if you want to satisfy the parents, the government, then it is not possible. You have to satisfy Krsna.

Indian lady: They have to go in colleges. They have to join colleges.

Prabhupada: I know that. Therefore I said that if you have to satisfy so many masters, it is not possible.

Dr. Patel: At the most she can give some sort of a cultural education along with those subjects.

Prabhupada: What is that cultural? If he does not practice, what is that culture? It is practice.

Dr. Patel: Practice in Bhagavad-gita and practice in the subjects.

Prabhupada: What is the use? They will produce cats, rats, blind leaders.

Dr. Patel: They will not produce so bad leaders then, perhaps. At least they will have a little better understanding than those fools who have no background of religion at all. Well, your schools, they..., so-called secularism that means no religion.

Prabhupada: Therefore we have to follow the sastra. Then it will be possible. Brahmacari guru-kule... [SB 7.12.1].

Indian lady: Christian has their own government schools everywhere. [indistinct] And we can have our own Krsna consciousness school.

Prabhupada: Yes. We are having our own-all over the world. We don't follow the government regulations.

Mr. Gupta: [Transl. May I request you to write a special comment on this book.]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: [Transl. He want's you to write an autograph.]

Mr. Gupta: [Transl. You write it here.]

[break]

Trivikrama: How about Dr. Patel?

Dr. Patel: I am a fool. [laughs] He has called me.

Indian man (2): Well, at least you realize that you're part of the fool...

Prabhupada: Everyone.

Indian man (2): ...and we all are! We realize that. So there's still some hope for...

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu also used to say that "I am a fool." And that is the realization.

Dr. Patel: So I am in a good company now. [laughs] I think so.

Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly.

Trivikrama: Everyone in a body means...

Prabhupada: Guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana . Guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career.

Trivikrama: Jumping over the head.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Just like our Nitai. [chuckles] This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahaprabhu remained-guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana: "My Guru Maharaja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain...

Dr. Patel: The avataras shall behave like common men. Otherwise They will not be... All avataras behave like common men.

Prabhupada: Our Guru Maharaja, so strict. A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.

Indian (2): Guru's chastise is the mercy.

Prabhupada: Sisyam ca putram ca tadayen na tu lalayet [Niti Sastra]. That is Canakya Pandita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them."

Dr. Patel: Tadayet must be beaten.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Tadayet may be beaten.

Prabhupada: Tadayet means tarana, chastisement.

Indian (3): Actually we were so rascal, we wish to be beaten by your stick on our head.

Prabhupada: Sisya, this word, very word, means voluntarily accepting the chastisement. This word, sis, sas, sas-dhatu. From sas-dhatu comes sastra. Sastra means weapon. So weapon is meant for maintaining peace and order. And sastra, sasana. These are the derivation from original root... Sisya. Sisya means who has voluntarily accepted to be chastised and ruled by the spiritual master. He is Sisya.

Dr. Patel: Siksa means instruction. So the one who takes the instruction is sisya, siksa.

Prabhupada: To obey. Sisya means to obey, discipline.

Dr. Patel: Live under the paternity of guru to learn.

Prabhupada: Yes. Voluntarily giving him the right to rule over.

Dr. Patel: All gurus are very severe taskmasters.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: All gurus are very severe taskmasters. A small thing, they turn away the sisya. Sometimes they used to do like that. And they never used to... I mean, in the Upanisads you hear stories that a boy was sent away with a cow and asked to come back when he had a thousand cows, becoming thousand, and he automatically got all, all the knowledge. These are the type of gurus were there sometimes.

Mr. Gupta: I think the similes can be misunderstood also sometimes.

Dr. Patel: These are similes or metaphor-we don't know. But that is a fact.

Mr. Gupta: Well, I don't think you or I, any of us, knows what is the fact. It's what's conveyed and interpreted to us that we know.

Dr. Patel: That means you must have extreme blind faith in guru. If a guru says that "You jump in the well," and you can jump in the well, then you get the goal. That is why that man went with ten cows and came back after twelve years making them thousand. Otherwise he becomes a cowherd. "What will I get knowledge by tending cows in the jungle?" No. But if he has that faith, faith... It is the faith.

Prabhupada: How much progress is being made?

Giriraja: Tremendous.

Trivikrama: That's what I was saying. I heard a tape two years ago, but I didn't...

Prabhupada: No, no. I mean to say this construction.

Giriraja: Oh, I thought...

Dr. Patel: You thought for me! [laughs]

Giriraja: I thought he was improving. [laughter] Well, the construction is, you know, going at the same rate. I spoke to the marble... There's two marble contractors. The one who's doing the floor, he's going very quickly. All the guest rooms are finished and half of the bathrooms are finished. The temple room is mostly finished. Main problem is the columns and arches. And it seems that that contractor has a bad reputation for taking money and then wasting time. So...

Prabhupada: Oh. He has taken money?

Giriraja: It seems he has taken lot of money...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Giriraja: ...on the plea that he needed it to get the work going. So, er...

Prabhupada: The same thing was done in Mayapur. These cheaters, they take advance money, and then they don't...

Dr. Patel: The contractor of mine also did the same thing in my house. Give them advance [Transl. You are finished! Completely!] That's it.

Prabhupada: Then? What to do?

Dr. Patel: We have not such a good answer.

Giriraja: Well, the floor man, he made...

[break] [end]