Audio
Prabhupada: You economically prove that Krsna consciousness is simple and inexpensive life.
Devotees: Yes, jaya. Mercy.
Prabhupada: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Krsna consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact.
Svarupa Damodara: No, pradhana. Then from pradhana, by the action of time this mahat-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiranmaya, hiranmaya is produced within mahat-tattva, and this hiranmaya is self-effulgent.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Prabhupada: Hiranmaya?
Prabhupada: Oh, effulgent, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Now our point is whether this hiranmaya... In the mahat-tattva, the relationship between these two and pradhana, how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhana, by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiranmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jivas within these material modes.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Svarupa Damodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the purusa incarnations, Prabhupada explains about tattva. But there is a difference between... Now our understanding is this: pradhana, both pradhana and mahat-tattva, they are eternal, though they are material manifestations.
Prabhupada: Everything eternal.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sa iksata, [Aitareya Upanisad 1.1.1] sa asrjata, [Aitareya Upanisad 1.1.2] by the glance of Maha-Visnu... Eko narayana asit. [Narayana Upanisad 4] In the beginning, Narayana was there. There was no Lord Siva, no neither Brahma. These mantras are there. So originally, by the glance...
Prabhupada: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three gunas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process.
Prabhupada: Pradhana is the ingredient.
Rupanuga: Categories.
Rupanuga: Is that differentiated?
Rupanuga: Different categories?
Svarupa Damodara: No, the time element is there in mahat-tattva, so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jivas are already impregnated here from pradhana. So here the living entities are in pure goodness.
Prabhupada: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated; it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yam purusah. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Krsna consciousness. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg 14.26]. I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get.
Svarupa Damodara: Now in the First Canto in the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is not very clear.
Prabhupada: Brahmajyoti. What?
Prabhupada: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall... First part, take it.
Rupanuga: Adi-lila?
Prabhupada: First part, take it.
Brsakapi: Chapter Three?
Prabhupada: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. [laughs] So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah.
Prabhupada: No, you read the Contents.
Rupanuga: Or the index maybe.
Prabhupada: No, the Summary.
Svarupa Damodara: Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Krsna, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this Age of Kali is nama-saṅkirtana, or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Krsna Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Krsna therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Krsna appear personally in Navadvipa in the form of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsnadasa Kaviraja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Srimad-Bhagavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of..."
Prabhupada: You are reading Caitanya Mahaprabhu. About Nityananda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityananda-tattva.
Prabhupada: Fifth Chapter?
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Lord Sri Krsna is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Sri Balarama. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Krsnaloka. Krsnaloka, the abode of Krsna, has three divisions, which are known as Dvaraka, Mathura and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions-Krsna, Balarama, Pradyumna [the transcendental Cupid] and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Krsnaloka is a transcendental place known as Svetadvipa, or Vrndavana. Below Krsnaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuntha planets. On each Vaikuntha planet a four-handed Narayana, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Sri Balarama in Krsnaloka is the original Saṅkarsana [attracting Deity], and from this Saṅkarsana expands another Saṅkarsana, called Maha-Saṅkarsana, who resides in one of the Vaikuntha planets. By His internal potency, Maha-Saṅkarsana maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuntha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Sri Krsna, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual karana-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Maha-Visnu, the original purusa expansion from Saṅkarsana. This Maha-Visnu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhana, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as maya. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Maha-Visnu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Maha-Visnu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation."
Prabhupada: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem.
[pause]
Prabhupada: That is spiritual.
Prabhupada: That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja-gala-stana, it has been described. Aja-gala-stana, the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say "by nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarsana or Visnu, that will do.
Prabhupada: Pure goodness always. It is simply covered.
"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."
[pause]
Prabhupada: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego.
Prabhupada: This is false ego: "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego.
Prabhupada: Ego is there, but this is false ego.
Rupanuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness.
Prabhupada: This false ego develops.
Devotee: Is that real ego, the soul?
Rupanuga: Here we are.
"The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkara."
Rupanuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating.
Rupanuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode-may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: That is what it means.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: What else you got?
Prabhupada: That is mixed with material modes.
Rupanuga: Originally it is goodness. Very... Pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is...
Prabhupada: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered.
Rupanuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out.
Prabhupada: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered?
Prabhupada: You'll get this from Second Canto.
Rupanuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self-Realization" chapter?
Sadaputa: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter-two chapters.
Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life?
Prabhupada: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter.
Sadaputa: Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul...
Prabhupada: Yes, within.
Sadaputa: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that?
Prabhupada: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated.
Rupanuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power...
Rupanuga: Ah!
Prabhupada: Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out.
Rupanuga: So spirit soul can create matter.
Prabhupada: Actually, from life matter is generated.
Rupanuga: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong.
Sadaputa: There are some people who have done measurements and...
Rupanuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he...
Prabhupada: According to his desire he creates.
Rupanuga: Simply by desiring.
Rupanuga: There have been some..., modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence.
Prabhupada: Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned.
Rupanuga: Pasteur?
Prabhupada: No, no, this lemon.
Rupanuga: A lemon tree.
Prabhupada: A lemon tree is producing chemicals.
Sadaputa: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice.
Prabhupada: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical.
Sadaputa: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it.
Rupanuga: So they are already there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: Created by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. The reservoir is there.
Prabhupada: That is your duty, to mention...
Rupanuga: So the plant...
Prabhupada: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it.
Rupanuga: So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and...
Prabhupada: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from the earth. This is the arrangement.
Rupanuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking.
Prabhupada: Not spirit soul. Spirit soul, according to his karma, takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired.
Rupanuga: It's all Krsna's arrangement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg 18.61]. Yantra. You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Sadaputa: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in Bhagavatam is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today?
Prabhupada: Every..., always happening. Nature's law is going on.
Sadaputa: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists...
Prabhupada: No, no. The process is going on as described. That is going on.
Rupanuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals.
Prabhupada: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor-what is that? Exactor?
Rupanuga: He takes, utilizes.
Rupanuga: Extracts from.
Prabhupada: Extracts.
Rupanuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain chemicals.
Prabhupada: That means that becomes the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle.
Rupanuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature?
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from the earth.
Prabhupada: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. We say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living..., just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that.
Prabhupada: That is their kupa-mandukya-nyaya, Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthanur, acalo'yam sarva-ga. [Bg 2.24] Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible.
Prabhupada: You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming.
Prabhupada: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. [break]
Rupanuga: You mean two things. You mean that...
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from life. Krsna says-He's the supreme life-He says, mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg 10.8]. He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So janmady asya yatah is life. That is explained in the Bhagavata. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayat, indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life.
Rupanuga: So that matter is coming from Krsna originally.
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from Him.
Rupanuga: Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter...
Prabhupada: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhana of life.
Rupanuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself.
Prabhupada: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. [break] That's all.
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much, Prabhupada.
[indistinct comments by devotees as tape runs on] [end]
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