Audio

[in car]

Rupanuga: ...n-a-m.

Prabhupada: n-a-m, nam.

Prabhupada: j-n-a.

Rupanuga: Is it hyphenated? Sa, hyphen?

Prabhupada: Yes. I have given the spelling. Or Pradyumna can give it to you.

Rupanuga: That is very artistic also, very nice, literate..., literature, very nice.

Prabhupada: And in bracket you can give "In Scientific Knowledge."

Rupanuga: "In Scientific Knowledge." In English? "In Scientific Knowledge."

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

[in room, during massage]

Prabhupada: Make that attempt. Then they will know, "Yes, Americans." So these pictures are available to be seen?

Yadubara: I think today they will, by this evening, they will...

Prabhupada: How many?

Yadubara: I took about... Well, one boy is doing it for free of charge. He's producing ten of them just to get idea. If we want more, we can get more. I took about twenty-five.

Prabhupada: All detailed?

Yadubara: Some detail, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice.

[aside:] Yes, you can close that. [door closes]

One set to Gargamuni and one set to Saurabha and one set for me. Three sets. And if you like, you can keep one set for you. The negative will be with you. What is the height altogether?

Yadubara: Actually, I don't know. I didn't get that. I can get that information also.

Prabhupada: So, guessing?

Yadubara: Oh, I don't know, two hundred and fifty feet? Something like that. Three hundred?

Rupanuga: That's too big, three hundred. The Washington monument is five hundred fifty feet.

Prabhupada: Then it is all right.

Yadubara: Maybe two hundred.

Rupanuga: Maybe a hundred seventy-five. We can check reference book easily. We'll find out today.

Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, we want to make a chart. Now from these gross elements, the five gross elements, we want to extend to...

Prabhupada: Earth, water, air, fire.

Svarupa Damodara: From there we want to include the, let's say this table, ninety-two..., what scientists call elements, this gold, silver, copper, all these elements.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is within earth.

Svarupa Damodara: But we are thinking that not only earth, but the water, air.

Prabhupada: In the earth, there is already water, air, ether, fire, everything.

Rupanuga: From previous.

Prabhupada: Earth is the reservoir of all elements. As you go from earth to water, one is minus. From water, you go to fire, one is again minus. In this way, when you go up, ether, there is only one. And earth contains all the five.

Svarupa Damodara: All the five gross elements.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: So actually we can use just from earth all these ninety-two elements, like silver, gold and...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is in the earth. So many varieties of mixture.

Rupanuga: Now is there an atom for each? Is there a copper atom?

Prabhupada: That we... We do not take care of atoms; we take gross estimate. Must be atomic differences. Just like gold and, what is called?

Svarupa Damodara: Gold and the mercury?

Prabhupada: Mercury, little atomic difference. And it is suggested that tin, copper and mercury, proportionately mixed, it will become gold.

Svarupa Damodara: Once you told me that in Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now you can do that experiment. Then our poverty will be... [laughter] It is fact. There are many yogis, they prepare gold by drinking mercury. They drink mercury, overnight; next morning they pass urine and dip copper coins in it. And then after some time the copper coins put into the fire, it becomes gold.

Svarupa Damodara: That's alchemist.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, they do that. But it is a fact that copper and tin and mercury proportionately mixed will produce gold.

This example is given by Sanatana Gosvami. As Kamsya... Kamsya is mixture of copper and tin, bell metal. When it is properly treated with mercury, it becomes gold. Similarly, a human being properly treated by initiation, he becomes a brahmana. This example has been given by Sanatana Gosvami. Tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam. Nrnam, he says, "of all human beings." He doesn't say a particular class or particular country. Nrnam, the word uses. Suddhyanti prabhavisnave namah. [SB 2.4.18] Everyone can be purified by the initiation process, by expert spiritual master. That is accepted in the sastra.

Svarupa Damodara: These elements, that science calls elements, gold and mercury, were these several other elements in the Vedic scriptures? Little information how they separate it, the technique they use...

Prabhupada: Metal? Oh, that, that is not described. But they, all these metals, they are different forms of earth. You find in ores.

Svarupa Damodara: But they are all impure.

Prabhupada: That's all right, you have to purify, but they are in the group of earth. We have to purify. Gold is also purified. It is taken from the mine, it is not pure gold. You have to treat it, then pure gold comes.

Svarupa Damodara: But that treatment must involve a lot of process.

Prabhupada: That may be, but by treating you can get, that's all. The metallurgists, they know.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So actually the Vedas must have known these techniques, because otherwise they cannot get this gold so easily.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. No, there are gold mountains also.

Svarupa Damodara: Mount Sumeru?

Prabhupada: There are gold mountains, silver mountains, iron mountains, copper road-everything is there. What is that?

Devotee (1): This is a new picture of Mars, just came in the Washington Post today. Here is what the scientists say the mountains are on Mars. Big crater they are talking about. This is a recent photo.

Prabhupada: No man? What do they say?

Svarupa Damodara: Says it's a Grand Canyon. Just like in Arizona there's a canyon called Grand Canyon.

Prabhupada: So might be from Arizona? [laughter] "Like Arizona," that means Arizona.

Rupanuga: Just like Arizona. Probably the same rocks you find in Arizona.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Svarupa Damodara: This is called Martian Grand Canyon, and an ocean meandering gorge ten times the size of Arizona's Grand Canyon.

Prabhupada: That we can photograph it and make ten times, hundred times. Their business is in Arizona.

Rupanuga: I think so.

Prabhupada: And this is only propaganda.

Rupanuga: I agree. I think it was all like a movie set.

Prabhupada: That's all. They are not going. Arizona is there, only asset. Why they are taking Arizona? That means they are in Arizona. Just like one man was stealing from the room, and there were some sounds, and the master of the house said, "Who is there? What is that sound?" The man said, "No, I am not stealing. No, no, I am not stealing." It is like that. [laughter]

Rupanuga: Throughout this article they make comparisons with earth, you know, approximations.

Prabhupada: And there is no man. Just see the foolishness. The same logic, "No, no, I am not stealing." Who asked you that you are stealing? He asked for the sound, but he disclosed. It is like that. Why they are bringing Arizona?

Rupanuga: Srila Prabhupada, you catch them red-handed.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, that I can do. Useless. Who asked them to speak of Arizona? You are speaking of Arizona. "No, no, I am not stealing." [laughter] It is like that. They could have mentioned other places.

Rupanuga: Arizona is convenient.

Prabhupada: That means they are working in Arizona. The mind is there. Arizona-minded because they are working in Arizona, so they are disclosing mind.

Svarupa Damodara: But they are claiming that this photograph was taken two hundred million miles away from the earth.

Prabhupada: That, they can say anything, but they are doing everything in Arizona.

Vipina: What is the point then, Prabhupada? Just to take money and use it some other way?

Prabhupada: No, no, just to cheat people that they are very big scientists, give them fat salary. That's all. But what people will benefit by this?

Svarupa Damodara: They want to study whether there is life there or not.

Prabhupada: There is life. You do not know.

Svarupa Damodara: They are not sure yet.

Prabhupada: There is life everywhere. We can say from the sastra. There cannot be any place vacant. It is not possible. Must be life there. All planets are vacant, simply this planet is congested, overpopulation... What is this nonsense? What is the difference between this planet and other planets, chemically or physiologically?

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, there are differences.

Prabhupada: Huh? Differences, that may be little, the difference between cat's body, dog's body, man's body, little difference must be there. But the elements are the same. At least, I'll not believe. No, I am not blind, but in the sastra, every planet is congested. That is in the Bhagavatam.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, actually we also have some information even in science that there must be life there in other planets.

Prabhupada: I..., he was of my age, perhaps you know his name, Dr. Saha, Meghanath Saha.

Svarupa Damodara: Meghanath Saha, yes.

Prabhupada: So he was my friend in Allahabad. So he said, "No, there is life." He said, Dr. Meghanatha... There is no question of disbelieving, he said, and he is also big, big scientist. Dr. Meghanatha Saha is very known scientist. Yes. Dr. Meghnatha Saha, Dr. Nila Ratan Dhar, they were all my customers.

Svarupa Damodara: Dr. Nila Ratan Dhar. That's in U.P.?

Prabhupada: U.P., Allahabad University. This Jawaharlal Nehru, he was very big, big customer.

Svarupa Damodara: There are in fact some reports in the last few years that there is some bacteria that can survive in the medium of ammonia-ammonia is alkaline solution. Normally life survives in...

Prabhupada: Life survives in fire also, fire also. That is our information.

Svarupa Damodara: Also they proved that there are certain bacteria that can survive in about a 170 degrees. High temperature.

Prabhupada: Why bacteria? Human beings. Otherwise, how Krsna is speaking with sun-god? Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]. Simply the sun-god is alone living?

Svarupa Damodara: No.

Prabhupada: Then the sun planet there are living entities. Their body is made of fire, that's all.

Svarupa Damodara: So it's better to say that when science says..., scientists say there are no lifes in other planets, we can conclude that the senses or the forms that we have, or the elements that we have different...

Prabhupada: They are different. Just like in the water we look, superficially we don't see any living being. But inside you go, there are many millions of living entities. They took photograph. What is the meaning of photograph from such a distance? If you take photograph of the sea, what you will find? It is vacant. So the rascals are taking photograph, and I have to believe it. Photograph, what is the meaning of photograph? There is no meaning. Take the photograph of the sea, if I know what is there. Then go deep into the water, you'll find millions and trillions.

Sadaputa: There are also living beings living in the air that we can't see?

Prabhupada: You can't see so many things. What is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much your eyes? You cannot see even your eyelids, so close. Still, you are blind. When there is some particle, you cannot see. You have to struggle how to get out this particle. If you see, then take it. So what is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much? Adhyaksika. They are called adhyaksika, only believe in direct perception.

Hari-sauri: [noise of door opening] It's Pusta Krsna.

Prabhupada: Let him come. So?

Pusta Krsna: Getting... French visa was done, and tomorrow I pick up your passport and my passport for Iran visa. Then just one more, Italy, remaining.

Prabhupada: Why do they speak about seeing? What is the value of your seeing? I have seen the Atlantic Ocean, that means I have seen everything? This is ludicrous.

Rupanuga: They may simply speculate from a distance, that "Here is the surface," like here...

Prabhupada: That's all. Real business is speculation.

Rupanuga: Here it says, this is some great, here...

Prabhupada: Oh, that is "I am not stealing."

Rupanuga: Twelve hundred miles above the surface. Now they want to speculate what is there.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Ami churi kari ni, "I am not stealing."] Who asked him that who is stealing? But he said, "I am not stealing."

Rupanuga: That is perfect. It's perfect, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Why he brings Arizona? Who asked him? That means that their business in Arizona.

Rupanuga: They have exposed themselves.

Prabhupada: Rascals, how they are cheating people.

Rupanuga: Such a big hoax. They have spent billions of dollars for such a hoax.

Prabhupada: Now you consider whether I am right or wrong. The moon planet is also Arizona. [laughs] All their business asset is there.

Rupanuga: So one of the things we want to do is expose this cheating. Should we expose this kind of thing directly like this, or should we indirectly deal with it?

Prabhupada: No, you do scientifically. I give you the hint. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: If we say that, then they will be mad at you.

Prabhupada: This psychology that, "Who asked him about Arizona? Why he is speaking Arizona?" That means they are in Arizona.

Svarupa Damodara: So Srila Prabhupada, is it all right to include that, these ninety-two chemical elements, as finer, er, finer form of earth? The earth is gross…

Prabhupada: Yes. Mixture of so many things. But actually, that is the fact. Just like iron, gold, everything you find, just like earth. But you have to purify.

Rupanuga: So earth is a mixture of all these different elements?

Svarupa Damodara: So we can call this...

Prabhupada: Different quality of earth.

Rupanuga: Like subcategory.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, in water also, all these, most of these earth materials are there, because it dissolves in water. Water is so many salts and elements there, in a dissolved form.

Prabhupada: That I told you, that in the earth all other five elements are there.

Rupanuga: So water precedes earth in the creation. Water comes first.

Prabhupada: No, ether.

Rupanuga: I mean water comes before earth. Earth is last, and water is just before. So that we find earth in water.

Prabhupada: You will find deposit…Water dries up, deposit of earth.

Pusta Krsna: He's saying you can find earth in water.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: That's the point you made.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That I am stating, that when water dries up, we find deposit of earth.

Rupanuga: Yes, because it precedes, and earth is being created from water, so you'll find earth in water originally.

Svarupa Damodara: But still water is one element less than earth.

Prabhupada: No, earth is full of all elements.

Hari-sauri: What he is saying is back to front, then. If earth has all the elements in it, then the other one says you go successively back, should have one less. So why is it water has earth in it when earth is the last one to be produced?

Prabhupada: Not visible.

Rupanuga: Oh, it's not manifest

Prabhupada: Yes, not manifest.

Rupanuga: So earth is in a nonmanifest state in the water, and when you analyze water sometimes you can analyze and produce little particles of earth. Is that right?

Prabhupada: Hmm. Everything is there. Not prominent, that's all.

Rupanuga: So the main characteristic, then, is the water that is prominent.

Prabhupada: Just like the skin, it is not... You cannot find water, but there is water.

Rupanuga: So earth is prominent.

Prabhupada: Like that. Just like you cut the skin, the blood will come. What is the blood? That is water.

Sadaputa: That is mineral water. It has minerals in it.

Prabhupada: That may be, but it is water.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, the composition of that particular element is predominant. When we say water, say there are some minerals, but the mineral percentage-wise is very less, but the percentage of water is more.

Rupanuga: There is no pure water. Can there be pure water, completely pure water? If we analyze, we will find pure water?

Prabhupada: Nothing can be pure.

Rupanuga: Not in this material world. They say that they distill it, but just like they say fire is pure, but fire is not pure. There are living entities living in the fire. They have gross..., grossly defined...

Prabhupada: The sterilization has no meaning. The living entity will stay. Otherwise, how it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: nainam pavakah dahati [Bg 2.23]. Find out.

Sadaputa: [aside] Is that in the Gita?

Hari-sauri: You were saying yesterday that in all states of matter there is always some living condition to be found. Even in a body that is supposed to be dead, there is life coming from it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, when the body dies, we say that it decomposes, actually that decomposition is done by small microbes. These microbes eat this big body and they just...

Prabhupada: They become prominent, that's all. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: Light.

Prabhupada: Light. Fire means heat and light.

Sadaputa: What is magnetism?

Prabhupada: Magnetism also another action of the fire. We used to do that: rubbing, rubbing, rubbing.

Svarupa Damodara: Electricity.

Rupanuga: Friction.

Prabhupada: And it would,... If you take one fine paper, you'll get.

Pusta Krsna: Hairs will stand on end.

Prabhupada: So magnetism means another action of the fire.

Pusta Krsna: That makes sense. [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: We talk sometimes things very complicated, Srila Prabhupada, but Prabhupada explains it very simply. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Because I am not scientist. [laughter] Just like I captured immediately, common sense.

Svarupa Damodara: [aside:] So everything clear then? Oh. In one of the articles in Back to Godhead, I think Dharmadhyaksa, he uses different words for these five elements. So we are going to use these elements in our book also, so we wonder whether... He says for fire, "radiant energy" instead of fire. I think it may sound little more...

Rupanuga: They think this is so simplistic, you know, mythological-type breakdown, oversimplification. So he used different words. He used..., fire he said "radiant energy," water he said "liquidity." What did he say for earth? "Solid matter," he said for earth, and air, "gas." And what did he say for ether? "Space." So we thought..., we were wondering if these were acceptable terms to use.

Prabhupada: That you can consider.

Svarupa Damodara: That's clear, then. Now, I, actually I just touched this point last time, but still I want to make it clear. Now in the difference between life and matter again...

Prabhupada: Life and matter, is, we already explained very clearly. There is no symptom of matter in life. Everything is detailed. Nainam chindanti sastrani [Bg 2.23]. Negative way. "It is not this."

Svarupa Damodara: But to feel it, to see it...

Prabhupada: You cannot bring it to any material platform. Everything is denied.

Svarupa Damodara: Now to make a simile or comparison, we found from our experience in science that matter as such is rather very simple. It is composed of simple patterns and simple forms and structures. But now when this matter is touched by life, or matter in association with life is actually very complex in terms of molecules. Becomes a big molecules, and the molecules not only big. It's very complex, highly complicated.

Prabhupada: You can understand, just the one grain of poison, potassium cyanide. You touch on the tongue, immediately whole body becomes poisoned. How the molecules just spread immediately?

Svarupa Damodara: How does it react? Potassium cyanide? It blocks the oxygen path? That's what science says?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the poison action immediately spreads all over the body.

Svarupa Damodara: Otherwise, why is it happening like that?

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughter] This is also material thing. Now how much powerful is spirit soul, you can just imagine. If one grain of matter has got so much potency, how much potency has got the spirit?

Svarupa Damodara: But then somebody may ask that why that cyanide... Cyanide is just material. But now in the living body the spirit is there, but how the spirit is affected by...

Prabhupada: Spirit is unable to live. The condition changes. Poison means the condition changes.

Svarupa Damodara: So cyanide is more powerful than the spirit.

Prabhupada: No. Powerful... This is different element. Powerful it is, certainly, because it is moving the whole thing. Powerful, that particular body is destroyed. But the spirit soul, there are so many; otherwise how the germs are coming? It is not powerful.

Svarupa Damodara: When cyanide is introduced, the body becomes unsuitable.

Prabhupada: For a particular soul.

Svarupa Damodara: Now my point, coming to this complex form, now matter, it is understood easily in terms of science, when matter is associated with life, then comparing this...

Prabhupada: Then the matter works. Otherwise it has no working capacity. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg 7.5]. The material world is working on account of presence of the spirit soul.

Svarupa Damodara: And from here, from this experience, we are extending that the spiritual world is..., spirit itself is...

Prabhupada: It's different from material world.

Svarupa Damodara: Complex?

Prabhupada: It has nothing to do with this material world.

Svarupa Damodara: But, Srila Prabhupada, is this valid to conclude that the spirit, spiritual world, or spirit life, is very complex?

Prabhupada: Not complex, it is simple spirit. In the material world it is complex. In the spiritual world, it is simple.

Svarupa Damodara: [aside] Is it all right? Is it understood?

Sadaputa: Spirit means completely different from matter.

Rupanuga: The whole idea is that the matter, where it's not touched by spirit, it's not very complicated.

Svarupa Damodara: It's very simple.

Rupanuga: When there's life, then you have such a complication like a body. The human body is very complicated because life is there. Without life...

Prabhupada: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated; the machine is complicated.

Rupanuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some....

Prabhupada: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity.

Rupanuga: One thing is that the machine, in this example, gets complicated or it becomes...

Prabhupada: Complicated means it is made in different parts with matter, that's all. But it cannot work without the electric power.

Svarupa Damodara: So the conclusion is that matter, when touched by life or spirit, actually it becomes complicated.

Prabhupada: Not complicated; it is already complicated. It works.

Svarupa Damodara: No, matter itself is not complicated. Matter itself is not complicated.

Prabhupada: Yes, complicated. When they are combined together.

Svarupa Damodara: Even if it is complicated, this matter itself touched by life is more complicated.

Prabhupada: No.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, it is. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Just like electricity. Electricity, when it is connected with the machine, it works. The machine is complicated.

Pusta Krsna: But it could be said that the machine is actually independent of the electricity.

Prabhupada: No, how it is independent? Without electricity it has no value.

Pusta Krsna: It has no value, but it's still existing.

Prabhupada: Existing, that is valuable?

Svarupa Damodara: But machine is touched by a person. So that makes a...

Prabhupada: No, no. That is an example, that here is electricity, power, and here is machine. The machine is complicated. The electricity is not complicated.

Hari-sauri: But if there's no electricity, then there's no need for a complicated machine. The machine can...

Prabhupada: You can see it is complicated. Even a typewriter machine, it is complicated.

Hari-sauri: Then it's only complicated because it needs to be so so that it can take the energy for running it.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. Without electric, without energy, it cannot work. But the thing itself is complicated.

Pusta Krsna: Can I ask one question? If life is based on the desire of the living entity, and as you were mentioning that the material energy forms so many complex combinations, the material body is so complex, does that mean that the living entity is very much entangled?

Prabhupada: If you analyze your body, there are so many complications. But without life it is all dead matter.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that is why we are concluding that now matter, when it is associated with life, it is very complex.

Prabhupada: No, no. Without matter, it is complex.

Rupanuga: Without life.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Without life it's more complex, matter?

Prabhupada: Yes, the same. The matter is the same.

Sadaputa: The same body. Same both ways.

Rupanuga: Well in a sense, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: There is no sense; try to understand. The body is complicated. But in spite of all this, it is useless unless there is life.

Rupanuga: All right, so then in an embryo stage...

Prabhupada: Any stage, it is, the whole thing is complicated.

Pusta Krsna: But you are saying that the soul is actually by nature very simple.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: At least compared to the material world.

Prabhupada: Yes. The soul is not complicated.

Sadaputa: I believe what Svarupa Damodara Prabhu is saying is that matter, each element studied by itself, has a simple structure, but when the body is formed with the soul, then it becomes apparently more complex; the chemical reactions become more complex.

Rupanuga: As a matter of growth even. Because life is present, then this small pea grows.

Prabhupada: That means that soul is not complicated.

Rupanuga: No, not the soul. But that the presence of the soul causes growth.

Prabhupada: Just like the Dictaphone. The Dictaphone is complicated, but my finger is not complicated. Finger is simple. I simply push, and it works.

Svarupa Damodara: So I'm comparing two matters in two different states. Now matter as such and the matter with life. Now taking that life is simple, now still there is a basic difference between matter not touched by life and this matter touched by life. And matter which is not touched by life is still simpler than this matter which is touched by life. Now taking that life is simple...

Prabhupada: Why you are speaking like that?

Svarupa Damodara: That's what we see in science.

Prabhupada: This machine is the same without electric or no electric. But with electric it works, and without electric it is useless.

Hari-sauri: But isn't a complicated body...

Prabhupada: It is complicated already. When it is touched with electric power it works. And when it is not touched with electricity... The electricity is not complicated; this thing itself is complicated.

Hari-sauri: But isn't the complexity of the body due to trying to accommodate the desires of the spirit soul? Such a complicated body is there because the spirit soul desires to do something. So the complexity is a product of the desire.

Prabhupada: Just like you want to do something, different machine, but the power is the same. You want to..., we use a Dictaphone or a typewriter, you want to use a, so many, so many... The complication is of the matter, but the electricity is the same, either this machine or that machine.

Rupanuga: In mathematics...

Prabhupada: Don't bring mathematics. Try to understand. You have got different machine for different purposes. But without electricity they are useless.

Hari-sauri: So the cause is very simple, but the effect is complicated.

Prabhupada: Not effect. It has nothing to do with. If you want to work for a certain purpose, you require such and such machine. So different purposes, different machines. But the power is the same. It is a simple thing. Why don't you understand? You push the electric power one is heater and same electric one is cooler. This is the difference of the machine. The power is the same, either it is acting as cooler or heater. The refrigerator is used, the same electric power. And the heater is used, same electric power. It is a question of difference of the machine. Electricity is the same. The matter is complicated. Spirit is not complicated.

Rupanuga: Just like in a body that is growing and getting bigger, that's because the spirit soul is present, and there's action going on because the spirit soul is there. So in that sense a body may become bigger and more complex because the spirit soul is present in that body. That is what we were trying to say, that this matter can become even more complex, if we can use that word, or variegated, because the presence of the spirit soul is there.

Prabhupada: Yes. We have to take help of the spirit soul to work the matter. Otherwise matter is dead.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, matter becomes more complicated when it is in association with life. That is actually what we want to say.

Sadaputa: We were speaking not of the spirit soul; we're saying "designed by God." That's the kind of life we were referring to.

Hari-sauri: Just like the material energy in its unmanifested state, when it's pradhana, there's no living entity present. But when the living entity is put into the material energy by God, then the whole complex system of workings in the material world come into being.

Rupanuga: What we're trying to show is that such complex activity cannot go on without the presence of life. And with life there, spirit soul, that the movements are going to go in this material world. That's our point. [aside:] Isn't that the point?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. One thing also, in the spiritual world, it is full of variegatedness.

Prabhupada: That is spiritual variety.

Svarupa Damodara: Spiritual variety.

Prabhupada: There is no difference.

Svarupa Damodara: That doesn't mean that it is complex, Srila Prabhupada, yes?

Prabhupada: No, there is no complexity.

Svarupa Damodara: Another point, Srila Prabhupada, is that matter as it is, it does not have any specific form, or pattern, as compared with matter associated with life. When matter is associated with life it has specific groups of forms meant for a definite purpose and function. Now this is lacking when matter is left as it is. For example...

Prabhupada: Yes, matter is utilized for the purpose of spirit soul. Otherwise matter has no independent existence. The whole thing is matter, but it is formed according to the desire of the spirit.

Hari-sauri: So if matter is inferior to the spirit soul, then isn't it correct to say that the spirit soul is more complex or sophisticated than matter? If matter is inferior?

Prabhupada: Spirit soul is living. Naturally he has got desires. That is not complexity. That is a symptom of life.

Rupanuga: Matter has no desire.

Svarupa Damodara: So matter seems, we say, more complex, but still is inferior.

Prabhupada: It is made complex to serve some purpose.

Rupanuga: It keeps the living entity forgetful of Krsna. It makes maya for the living entity; he forgets Krsna with all the complexities.

Prabhupada: Physically, everything is being done by heat and light. So fire is heat and light. The fire is not complex-heat and light-but with heat and light everything is going on. You have physical subject matter of studies, heat and light?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Because everything is being conducted by heat and light.

Hari-sauri: So the living entity's desire has become very complex due to his association with material nature?

Prabhupada: He does not... He desires, and the matter helps. In the material world.

Svarupa Damodara: That desire is simple?

Prabhupada: Desire is simple, that is his... Otherwise, without desire, how he is living? You make minus desire, then how it is living? That is only symptom of his living.

Rupanuga: You have said on your original record that the living entity is trying to enjoy material nature but is becoming more and more entangled in her complexities.

Prabhupada: He is becoming entangled in the machine. Because he has forgotten his spiritual identity, he thinks, "With this machine I can find happiness." That is going on.

Svarupa Damodara: In a sense, it is also true that in the material world, especially material scientists, they make things more complicated.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: The contamination of material desires. But when one develops spiritual desire, then he becomes more simple.

Prabhupada: Karma-bandhana. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita, yajnarthat karmanah anyatra karma-bandhanah [Bg 3.9], to become entangled.

Rupanuga: So for a karmi, if you ask what is the purpose of life, it is a very complicated question. For a devotee, it is a very simple question with a simple answer. It is very complicated. They will answer, "Oh, this is very difficult. We cannot discuss this in this class, this is too complex." That is the answer we got all our lives until we came to you, Srila Prabhupada. Then you answered very simply-Krsna.

[devotee offer obeisances, door opens]

Rupanuga: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for exposing these westerners [?].

[end]