Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.3.12 – February 3, 1971, Gorakhpur

What is this visvam?

Devotee: [introducing recording] On arrival in Gorakhpur, on the morning of the 3rd January [sic] '71, Srila Prabhupada gives Bhagavatam lecture.

Prabhupada:

Yamaraja is describing about his superior, master. First qualification is that Yamaraja is the controller of an insignificant portion of the universal affairs. Just like there are departmental director, but the master of Yamaraja, He is controller of creation, maintenance and annihilation.

Otam protam patavad yatra visvam-this cosmic manifestation is just like thread woven this side and that side. Both sides there are threads, just as cloth there are two sides; both sides length and width, both sides there are the threads. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation, lengthwise and widthwise, the energy of the supreme master is working.

In the Bhagavad-gita also it is said, sūtre mani-gana iva [Bg 7.7]. Just like in one thread there are beads or pearls woven, so Krsna, or the Absolute Truth, is just like the thread, and everything, all planets or all globes, all universes, they are woven in a thread, and that thread is Krsna. Krsna also says, ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg 10.42]: in one-fourth energy, the whole material creation is resting. Similarly, there is another statement in the Bhagavad-gita:

"I am spread by My energy, which is taken as impersonal Brahman." Aham sarvam idam tatam. Tatam means "spread." Whatever we are seeing, that is spreading of the energy of the Supreme Lord. Just like this heat He is spreading. Heat expands. There are waves of heat and light, as you know, but the original source of the wave, I think we have given the picture, the wave of light is coming from the Vrndavana, Goloka Vrndavana. That is an idea. There are different waves.

So that wave is spreading all over. And that is confirmed in the Vedic literature: sarvam khalv idam brahma [Chandogya Upanisad 3.14.1]. Īsavasyam idam sarvam . His energy is spread everywhere, parasya brahmanaḥ saktih sarvedam akhilam jagat [Visnu Purana 1.22.53].

That is in Visnu Purana. That is impersonal. The energy which is emanating from the Supreme Person, that is impersonal Brahman. Not that there is no more, I mean, superior than the Brahman. That is a mistake of the Mayavadi school. They take that expansion of the brahma-jyoti is final. But that is not final. We get information from Bhagavad-gita that brahmano hi pratisthaham [Bg 14.27].

This impersonal Brahman effulgence, which is spread everywhere, maya tatam idam sarvam [Bg 9.4], although Krsna says maya, "by Me," "by Me" does not mean that…, brahma-jyoti means that Krsna has become vanquished; there is no more Krsna. The Mayavadi philosophy is based on this understanding, that if the Absolute Truth is spread everywhere, so there is no question of the Absolute Truth becoming a person. They cannot adjust like that, although Krsna personally says that brahmano aham pratisthaham [Bg 14.27]: "I am the source, or the strength, or the platform from which the brahma-jyoti is emanating."

It is not very difficult to understand. This fire is here, localized, but the heat is expanding, expands-parasya brahmanaḥ sakti [Visnu Purana 1.22.53].

So although Krsna's energies are spread everywhere, this does not mean Krsna has become imperson. Why He should be imperson? We can see exactly in our daily experience that from sun globe immense light and heat is coming, and that is maintaining this universe.

This is only a portion of the illuminating energy of Krsna, the sūryayoḥ. In Bhagavad-gita it is said, prabhasmi sasi-sūryayoḥ [Bg 7.8]. Prabhasmi. Prabha means the effulgence, the light. Sasi-sūryayoḥ. It is not that… So sasi means moon, and sūryayoḥ means the sun. They are not independently spreading this heat and light. They are simply reflection, reflection of the original of brahma-jyoti.

Therefore Yamaraja says that otam protam patavad yatra visvam. Visvam. What is this visvam? The whole cosmic manifestation. There are living entities, and there are inert matter. Just like we are sitting here, so we are living entities, and this house is inert matter. So combined together we have created this city or this home, the creation of two energies. One energy is matter; another energy, living force. But both of them are energies of the Supreme Lord.

That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita also: bhūmir apo 'nalo vayuḥ kham buddhir mano eva ca prakrtir me astadha [Bg 7.4], prakrtir me bhinna astadha. These five elements-mind, intelligence and ego, gross and subtle matter-they are ingredients. But beyond this material energy there is another energy, Krsna says:

The jiva-bhūtam, the living entities, they are utilizing this energy, but both of them energy. One of the energy appears to be creative, creating, and another energy is ingredient. You cannot create anything without ingredient. The material energies are ingredient, upadana, upadana. Upadana-karana nimitta-karana .

So both these energies are working. The example is given here just like in a cloth there are set up of two kinds of thread, one lengthwise and widthwise. Similarly, these two energies-material energy and the spiritual energy-are working the whole creation, otam protam. The one side, the lengthwise one thread, and widthwise one thread. So these two energies, they are working: otam protam patavad yatra visvam. And Krsna also confirms this:

Yad-amsato 'sya sthiti-janma-nasa Everything in this material world, these three things are visible. Anything is produced, anything we take, it is produced at a certain time, then it is maintained for a certain time, and then it becomes annihilated again. Your body, my body, this world, this material world, this house-anything we take material. But there are controller or director for these department. The director and controller of creation, production, is Brahma, and the director of maintenance is Visnu, and the annihilator is Lord Siva-Brahma, Visnu, Mahesa.

But these directors, they are not absolute; they are part and parcel. Just as we are part and parcel of Krsna, similarly the controller of material affairs, or the demigods, they are also part and parcel. They are not absolute. Yad-amsatah So Yamaraja says that yad-amsata asya. Asya means these big shots of this universe, Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara. So they are different directors of three departments. And nasy otavad yasya vase ca lokaḥ. Nasy otavad-just like the bulls, there is a rope within their nose, and the cart-man simply moves his finger with that rope, and the bull turns this way, that way, goes straight, stops. Nasy otavad.

Similarly, we are also nasy otavad yasya vase ca lokaḥ. Lokaḥ means all these universes, planets or living entities, they are simply moving under the indication by the Supreme Lord. So, "Go this way," we have to go this way. He says, "This way," you have to go this way. Not directly, but as… He has nothing to do, but under His direction, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8].

A very rich man, he is sitting down in one place, but by his direction big, big factories are going on. The manager of the factory, the workers in the factory, they are all working day and night under the direction of that proprietor. If it is possible in a small scale, so similarly the whole universal affairs are going on under the direction of the Supreme Lord-not that they are independently working. Nothing can do independently. And His direction is so perfect that it is admitted in the Vedas:

I have several times explained that His direction is so perfect, and the energy by which He is working is so perfect, that it looks automatically being done. The so-called scientists with poor fund of knowledge, they are giving importance to the energy by saying these things are appearing automatically. But they do not enquire that behind the energy there is energetic.

Just like this electric current, but behind all these electric activities, there is a powerhouse and there is an executive engineer. He is producing the electric energy from the powerhouse and diffusing it all over the city. But one who does not know, he thinks the light is powered automatically, the fan is going automatically. No. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ [Bg 9.10].

The materialistic scientists are giving importance to the movements, wonderful movements, of this material nature. Vairangha-sakti[?]. The material nature is going on, but there must be one sakti-mana who is possession of this, who is possessing this energy.

So it is foolish to know that things are going on automatically by natural activities. But that is not a fact. Here it is said that yasya vase ca lokaḥ. The example is given just like a bull. With the rope the cart-man drives according to his own wish. This is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita:

The Lord is as Paramatma. He is sitting in everyone's heart, and as you wanted to do, you forget. Suppose a person, in his previous life, he wanted to be as powerful as a tiger. According to Muslim philosophy, they want strength like tiger. [indistinct] People think like that: "If I become so powerful as a tiger, then I can attack any less powerful animal and I feed on it."

But nature is so cruel, the tiger, the most of the days he will starve. Although he has got strength, he cannot get daily a prey. No. This is not possible. When he is too hungry, Krsna gives a chance to prey.

So He gives. "I wanted to be such and such," He gives me intelligence, He is so merciful. If you want to be as powerful as tiger, if you want to be a predominant businessman, He gives, ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg 4.11]. He gives opportunity, and He gives also chance to His devotee to go back to home, back to Godhead. He is giving chance to everyone. If you want to remain here, yanti bhūtejya bhūtani [Bg 9.25]. If you want to remain in this material world and do hard work for sense gratification, that chance will be given to you. But if you want to go back to home, back to Godhead, that chance also will be given to you.

Now, it is my selection. When they are entangled in this material activities, they accuse Krsna: "Why God has created somebody this, somebody that?" No. God has not created; we have created. We wanted to become like this, so God has given us. Krsna has given us this chance, "All right, you become this." So it is my desire. He is called kalpataru-desire tree. Therefore we have to change our desire or purify our desire. That is Krsna consciousness. That is Krsna consciousness. The desire is mine.

So the Mayavadi philosopher says that "You become desireless," vasana-sūnyam. That is not possible. You cannot be desireless, because you are living entity. If your desire is finished, then you are also finished. How you can live? So this desire must be there, but you have to desire…, you have to purify your desire. That's all. That is Krsna consciousness.

The materialist, or the conditioned soul, is desiring every moment-desiring for sense gratification. The same desire will continue; you have to change the course only, that you have to desire to gratify the sense of Krsna. In our conditioned stage we desire to fulfill our senses, and in liberated stage we desire to fulfill..., to satisfy Krsna's senses. The sense gratification is there. Desiring of sense gratification is there. In the material stage we simply desire to gratify our senses, and the liberated stage we try to…, we desire to fulfill the sense gratification of Krsna.

That is the instruction from Bhagavad-gita. Arjuna wanted in the beginning to fulfill his sense gratification. He thought that "I shall be happy if my relatives are not killed." That is natural. If somebody comes, "I would just like to kill your son immediately," would you like to abide by this order? "Oh, why should I kill?"

But Arjuna, he desired, or he agreed, to fulfill the sense gratification of Krsna. Krsna says that "I am desiring this fight. If you don't fight, then still all these men who have assembled here, they will be killed. That plan is already made." That is Krsna's desire.

In the Eleventh Chapter He says that, " I have come, I have appeared to destroy all this." The destruction,

So he wanted to kill all the duskrtam, and the Kuruksetra fight was planned by Him. He wanted actually to destroy, because that was His business, paritranaya sadhūnam vinasaya ca duskrtam. And Arjuna, because he was His very, I mean to say, sincere friend and devotee, Krsna wanted to give him the credit, that "You fight, because personally I am not fighting. You fight, and the plan is already there that these people who have assembled in this battlefield, they will be all killed, and you will get the credit." That's all.

Just like this preaching is going on in the Western countries, all over the world. This is desire of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That is planned already by Him. So we are simply a little helping, that's all. So our devotional service means that whatever Krsna, or God, desires, we should try to co-operate with Him. That is our perfection. You cannot do anything. He is doing everything. But if you simply co-operate with your desire, that is called devotional service.

So there is no question of becoming desireless. That is not possible also. That is another fault. By force you cannot stop. Just like a child, you cannot forcibly stop him, his activity, but if he is naughty, then you have to train him for being educated, and when he is educated he comes out a very nice scholar. Similarly, the people who have become nationalized, if proper chance is given to them, they will come out very nice devotees. That is the technology of spiritual science.

So our Krsna consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, that people are desiring in so many ways for sense gratification-that desire has to be purified and employed in the matter of gratifying the senses of Krsna. The Mayavadi philosophers, they cannot understand this, because they think of the Absolute Truth without any senses. As soon as there is sensual activities, they think of, "It is maya." But they do not…, they cannot conceive that in the Absolute Truth there are senses and sense gratification. No. That they do not know.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, you said that if the Naxalites are turned, they can become very nice devotees. So what qualification do they particularly have, which would make them good devotees?

Prabhupada: Simply they have to come and hear us, that's all. If they kindly come and hear us, and follow just like you have done, everything will be saved. We have to implore that "Please come and sit down for some time and have some nice kirtana, and hear some philosophical talks, and take Krsna's prasadam, and go home." And then, in this way the whole world. [laughs] If they agree to come, then their whole thing is changed: no more destruction; only construction. That we have to do; that we have to implore. Dante nidhaya trnakam-that is the teaching.

This is written by Prabodhananda Sarasvati. "Taking a blade of grass in my mouth," dante nidhaya trnakam, padayor nipatya, "and falling down on your feet, and with folded hands," dante nidhaya trnakam, padayor nipatya kaku-satam, "and flattering you like anything, 'You are so nice, you are so great, you are so…,' " kaku-satam krtva, " 'I am just submitting one thing.' "

What is that? He sadhavaḥ, " 'You are very nice, you are very honest gentleman, sadhavaḥ,' " sakalam eva vihaya, " 'Whatever you have learned, please set aside for a moment.' " Caitanya-candra-carane kurutanuragam, " 'Just turn your mind to the teachings of Lord Caitanya.' "

This is our process. We don't say, "Whatever you are doing, this is all nonsense, this is all…" Simply try to make him hear, and give them the right knowledge. [indistinct] Because the medicine and the diet…, if there is disease, sickness, if you give him the proper medicine and proper diet, he will be cured. That's all. There is no doubt. The medicine is the harinama, and diet is krsna-prasadam.

So you arrange for these two things, and the whole world will change. That is our movement. Give them this medicine, chant Hare Krsna mantra, and give them diet, nice krsna-prasadam-the same method by which you were captured. [laughs]

[laughter] Is it not? What I did? I did not give you any bribe or any money taken from the Indian exchequer, but I gave you this little prasadam, one capati, and chant Hare Krsna. [laughs] That is all.

Revatinandana: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: You talked about the material nature, the inferior energy of the Lord, and we have become contaminated or entangled with this maya, and then by devotional service we can purify ourselves from that entanglement. What is the process by which devotional service…?

Prabhupada: It is the same process that we are following: chanting.

Revatinandana: Is materialism destroyed, or converted to …

Prabhupada: No. Material energy is created by God.

Revatinandana: But in our devotional service, what happens to the material energy?

Prabhupada: Material energy, if you become a devotee, there is no more material energy-spiritual energy.

Revatinandana: But supposing…

Prabhupada: Just like I told you that "Chant." People are singing. They are chanting so many things. Somebody is singing janda uncha rahe hamara. That is also singing, you see. But the same singing propensity, if you turn into "Hare Krsna," that is spiritual. There are so many slogans, "jindabad jindabad jindabad," going on. You see? This is material. And soon as chant, the same energy turns into spiritual.

Actually, visnu-sakti para proktaḥ: whatever energy is emanating, coming… Just like the energy from the sun globe, it is simply heat and light. Similarly, the energy, flow of energy, which is emanating from God, that is all spiritual. In the same way, just like when the sun shines, there is generation of clouds. The cloud is also manufactured by the sunshine, but the effect is that when there is cloud, you cannot see the sun. Similarly, material energy is also creation of God, but when you are in the material energy, you cannot understand God. That's all.

Material energy is also creation of God, just exactly the cloud is creation of sunshine. But one who is within the cloud, the cloud cannot cover the sun. The Mayavadi philosopher, they say that maya has covered the Supreme. No. The Supreme cannot be covered. The particles of the Supreme, the living entities, who are small particles of the…, they are covered. Just exactly like the sun: the cloud cannot cover the sun, but cloud can cover my eyes.

So if you remove this covering, then you see God immediately. And that is the process of religion.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Simply by devotional service one can understand what is the nature of God. So you have to practice it, and our Krsna consciousness movement is meant for that purpose. We are engaging people to practice how this cloud will be moved, and you will be able to see the Supreme.

Those who have developed that love of God by this devotional service, they always see Krsna. Not a single moment is without seeing Krsna. But those who are in the material darkness, they are doubting. They say that "God is dead," "There is no God," "Can you show me God?" This is all.

So this is a diseased condition. Just like a man haunted with ghost, he cannot see his father face to face. He sometimes rebukes his father. He will attack. "Who are you? When are you coming, my son? If you are a madman or some such thing?" You see? So this is the condition of madness. When one cannot understand God, then one should know this is condition of madness, ghostly-haunted.

That so long we are godless, we are without Krsna consciousness, we should know that this is not our healthy condition; this is diseased condition. So we have to cure the disease. That is this movement, Krsna consciousness movement. We have to cure the disease of godlessness.

Revatinandana: [indistinct] talking about the disease; then we can give an injection, and that will cure the disease. And we know that injection will cure the disease by destroying the germs that are causing the disease.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this is injection, peaceful injection.

Revatinandana: But by devotional service are we destroying material nature?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our program.

Guest [Indian man]: Why at all God has created the material energy?

Prabhupada: Because you wanted it.

Guest: Just you were talking that [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No. Why government creates the prison house? What is the reason? Can you not answer it? Why the government constructs a prison house? Why?

Guest: Some men are [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes. So does it means that government has created this prison house to make somebody criminal? Does the government desire like that? So why you become criminal and go to the prison house? Does government says, the university says, that you become criminal and go to the prison house? Why you go? So because you want to go, therefore the prison house is created. Similarly, because you want to enjoy, because you want to enjoy your senses, therefore this material world.

Because in the spiritual world there is no enjoyment of your senses, there is simply Krsna's senses. You cannot do that. Therefore, "You want? All right." Krsna says, "All right, you enjoy your senses here. You become Brahma, and a stool worm also, according to your karma."

So this is Krsna's kindness. You wanted to enjoy, and don't you see in the material world, all the people are simply fighting one another simply for sense enjoyment? Everyone wants wife. What is this Naxalite movement? "This big men, this rich men, they are enjoying so much. Why? Kill them; we shall enjoy." The enjoying spirit is there, not serving spirit. Both the capitalists and the laborer, the spirit is enjoyment. Only thing is, I am saying, "Why you shall enjoy?" and you are saying "Why you shall enjoy?" That is our fight.

Guest (2): But in this country we are at a place…

Prabhupada: In this country or that country, no-we are talking of generally, not this country or that country. This is the spirit of material existence, that you want to enjoy, I want to enjoy-there must be fight. And as soon as we know that we are not enjoyer-our constitutional position is to serve Krsna for His enjoyment-then is enjoyment. And so long you think, "I shall be enjoyer," and I think, "I shall be enjoyer," you may be some party, I may be a party, there will be fight. The fight is on the platform of personal sense enjoyment, which is not meant.

We are… Now suppose you are nationalized party and I am some other party. So you are also serving your leader, and I am also serving. Just like when two nations fight, they fight under the leadership of some gentleman. They consider it very nice. Both the leaders-that Churchill accusing Gandhi, and Gandhi accusing Churchill, and the followers of Churchill and followers of Gandhi fight. But they do not know why you are fighting. In the estimation of Englishmen, Churchill is very great, and estimation of Indians, Gandhi is very great. And the estimation of Churchill, Gandhi is the rascal, and estimation of Gandhi, Churchill is rascal.

So now we have to decide who is actually great and who is actually rascal. This fighting is going on. Everyone will say, "My leader is very nice; the other leader is rascal." But actually who is rascal and who is nice? So our sastra says,

Harav abhaktasya. The one who is not devotee of Krsna, he has no good qualification. Why? Because they are moving on mental platform: "I shall enjoy." But he is not enjoyer. Any one of us, are we enjoyer actually? We are not enjoyer; we are servant. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy is jivera 'svarūpa' haya-'nitya krsna -dasa' [Cc Madhya 20.108].

The actual constitutional position of all living entities are that they are eternal servants of God, and when one realizes this actual fact, there is self-realization.

Actually you are all serving. Even if you become member of a certain type, we are serving the orders of the leader. The service position is the honor, but because the service is misplaced, all of them, all of us are fighting and becoming unhappy. The service is continuing, either you serve your country or a certain type of leader or certain type of ideology, the service-you have to render service. That you do not know. That I am trying to be master by serving something, so where I am master?

So one who has got sense, he agrees, "Ah, why not serve God? I am not become happy by serving."

Just like Gandhi served his country so nicely, and the result was that he was killed by his countrymen. Where is the perfection of the service? Even Gandhi could not do it. The most sincere person, mahatma, but he was killed. Is it not a fact? So who can give perfection in this country than Mahatma Gandhi, and why he was killed? What is the answer of this question?

That means in this material world there cannot be any perfect service. Perfect service can be done only when you serve God, Krsna. That is perfect service. Without Krsna, any service, any welfare activities you do, that is imperfect. That is imperfect. That is maya. As soon as..., as long as... I am imperfect, but still I am attached to such kind of envious men. That is called maya. Maya means you are thinking that you will be happy in this way, but you will never be. You will never be.

Andha yathandhair… Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum. They do not know where is their self-interest lies. Na te viduḥ, they do not know. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ. They are thinking durasaya. Durasaya means hopeless, hope against hope. They are trying to be materially happy, and they will never be. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ-attracted by the external energy.

Just like one leader is leading many others. One leader, a blind leader, is leading many other blind men. So what will be the result? Is it possible for a blind man to lead? No. He is himself blind; how he can lead other blind men? 'Pisa-tantryam baddhaḥ, both of them are conditioned by the laws of nature. And Krsna says that,

"Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes freed from the influence of this maya, illusion." Illusion means I am servant, but I am serving a wrong person or a wrong cause. I will never be happy. To serve the right cause, right person, then you will be happy. Is that clear now? [laughs] Hare Krsna. So long we are here, you come; we shall discuss all these points.

[break] [conversation after lecture]

They have got some opinion. They have some great gathering, some follower. Why not this matha? Nor they are behaving, Vivekananda's head. So why they condemn it? Why not… This is also matha, another matha.

Guest: [indistinct] [break]

Prabhupada: …the matha is Krsna's matha-sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66]. That is matha. All matha are bogus. So we are spreading this Krsna consciousness all over the world, and they are being accepted. They did not know what Krsna, so we had to go. That was [indistinct] real matha, which is accepted by everyone. [Hindi]

Devotee: [indistinct comment to tape] [end]