Lecture Engagement – August 5, 1971, London

You can stay in four places

Prabhupada:

[01:02]

Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here to participate in this transcendental movement, sahkirtana movement, which we are trying to spread all over the world.

Kalau tad dhari-kirtanat [SB 12.3.52]. This age is called Kali-yuga. According to Vedic calculation there are different ages-Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga, Dvapara-yuga then Kali-yuga. The duration of life of the Satya-yuga is about eighteen hundred thousands of years. The next yuga, Treta, about twelve hundred thousands of years. Next, Dvapara-yuga, about eight hundred thousands of years.

And this Kali-yuga, four hundred and thirty-two thousands of years. Out of that, we have passed only five thousand years. The modern history, they can give account, chronological account, utmost for three thousand years, but the Kali-yuga has begun since five thousands of years after the Battle of Kuruksetra.

There was a big battle, Mahabharata. Mahabharata means this whole planet was known as Bharata. At that time your country, or any other country, they were all included within the jurisdiction of Bharata-varsa. Therefore the history is called Mahabharata-greater Bharata-varsa. Before this, this planet was known as Ilavrta-varsa, but since the reign of one big emperor whose name was Bharata, after him this planet is called Bharata-varsa.

So there was a war between, long, long ago. The ksatriya kings, they did not rule very nicely. As it is the nature of this world, everything deteriorates. So at that time Parasurama wanted to kill all the ksatriyas. From Mahabharata history we can understand that many ksatriyas, they left that part of the country..., world, and they domiciled in this western part of the world. They are called Indo-Aryan stock.

So these Europeans and Americans, they are also formerly ksatriyas. From the Mahabharata history we can understand. But somehow or the other they have lost their Vedic culture by long separation with the mainland. Otherwise, the whole world was under Vedic culture, and five thousand years ago, when the Battle of Kuruksetra was there, all different kings from different parts of the world joined either in this party or that party, as it is usual whenever there is a great war some parties join this party, some parties join that. So we can see all these facts. It is estimated that sixty-four crores of men were massacred in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. That means the whole world fought. That was the greatest world war, five thousand years ago.

So the point is, Vedic culture means Krsna consciousness. So this Krsna consciousness movement means that we are trying to revive the old Vedic culture throughout the whole world. That is the original culture, because any other cultural history does not go beyond three thousand years in the modern history, but before three thousand years, what was the culture in the world? Practically there is no information. Darwin's theory is not perfect; it is only a theorizing. Human civilization is existing since the creation of this universe. So it is not that there was no human being some thousands of years ago. That is not a fact. The human civilization is coming since a very, very long time.

So what was their culture before three thousand years? The culture was Krsna conscious. In the Bhagavad-gita we understand Krsna says,

This culture of Krsna consciousness, yoga, is called yoga. Any culture is called yoga. So Krsna says,

This culture, Krsna consciousness culture, Krsna is speaking five thousand years ago, that this culture was first of all described to the sun-god, and we get history, all the ksatriya families, they are coming from the sun planet or the moon planet. The immediate king from the sun planet was Vaivasvata Manu, and his son was King Iksvaku. In this way the royal order on this planet was established. This King Iksvaku is the original father, or the original head man, in the ksatriya family in which Lord Ramacandra appeared, sūrya-vamsa. There are two ksatriya families: one coming from the sun planet and the other is coming from the moon planet.

So there was interchange of population long, long ago, not only with the moon planet but also with the sun planet. These things we get from the history of Mahabharata. Now we are accepting only the modern history five thousand years ago. Five thousand years ago Krsna-we take Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by Vedic evidence-and He spoke the culture of Bhagavad-gita five thousand years ago, and He says also therein that,

"This culture is avyayam, inexhaustible. It cannot be stopped. It is existing eternally, avyayam, but it was spoken first by Me to the sun-god, Vivasvan. The sun-god, the present sun-god's name is Vivasvan. Just like any head man, just like in England the executive head is the Queen Elizabeth or in America the head man is Mr. Nixon.

Formerly there was only one executive head in each planet; in this planet also. Therefore five thousand years ago the chief king or the emperor was Maharaja Pariksit. Similarly, in each and every planet there is a head man, and he is called by some name. So at the present moment the sun-god, the head man in the sun-god [planet], is called Vivasvan. His name is Vivasvan, and his son came to this planet. His name is Vaivasvata Manu, and his son is King Iksvaku.

In this way there is a disciplic succession. Krsna says formerly, because the kings were the head of the state or head of the citizens, they were taught Vedic culture so that they can rule over the citizens, or the subjects, very nicely. If the king is all right... There is a proverb in India that... That is the Vedic idea: if the king is ideal, then the whole state is happy. Therefore sometimes in India they hanker after rama-rajya. There is a party in India, political party, they are called Rama-Rajya Party. They want to establish rama-rajya again, as there are many political parties.

So the ideal is Lord Rama. He acted as the king. He was a very ideal king, ideal king in such a way... I'll give you one example, that one man's son died before the father, and the man approached the king and asked him explanation, that "Why such unnatural things have happened, that before the presence of the father a son is dying? You are responsible." King said, "Yes, I am responsible. I shall find out what is the cause." That was the monarchical responsibility.

So up to five thousand years ago Pariksit Maharaja was the emperor of this planet, and when he was touring all over the world he found somebody attempting to kill a cow. Immediately he took his sword and wanted to kill that man: "Who are you that you are killing cow in my kingdom?" He said, "Sir, I am Kali. I am the head man of this age. My business is this, cow killing."

So he said, "Anyway, you get out, out of my kingdom. You cannot do this." So he surrendered, but he said, "Sir, where shall I go? Everywhere is your kingdom. Tell me where shall I go." Then he was given place, that "You can stay in four places-where unnecessary animal killing is going on, or slaughterhouse, you can stay there. Where prostitution is going on, you can stay there. Where indulgence in intoxication is going on, you can stay there. And where gambling is going on, you can stay there." But this Kali found it very difficult to find out a place like that. That was the condition.

So this is the short history of the world, and when there was Krsna consciousness, people were very happy. Even there was no extreme cold, extreme heat and any unnecessary disease also. These are stated in the sastras. If you believe... That is, you can believe; but we believe, because our source of knowledge is sastra. We don't accept any source of knowledge which is not authorized. So according to Vedic culture the Vedas are the authorities. Therefore among the learned circle even at the present age, if you can give evidence from the Vedas, then the truth is accepted.

So our Krsna consciousness movement is based on the Vedic sastra. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo [Bg 15.15]: by studies of all Vedas, one has to come to the conclusion that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is our relationship with Krsna, that is Krsna consciousness. First of all we must know what is our relationship with Krsna. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhūtaḥ [Bg 15.7]: "All the living entities, they are My parts and parcels."

We are all parts and parcels of Krsna, just like you are part and parcel of the body of your father, parents; similarly, we are parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. He is the Supreme Father. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita also:

Krsna claims not only the Indians or the Hindus or the human society. No. He says, "In all forms..., in all species of life, as many forms are there are, I am their seed-giving father." So Krsna's relationship is so expansive. So do not try to misunderstand that Krsna is Indian or Krsna is a Hindu God or Krsna is speaking something for the Indians. No. That is not the fact. Krsna is for everyone.

Krsna's relationship is there in everyone's heart, dormant. Each of you, you have got love for Krsna. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, that love for Krsna is existing in everyone's heart, but it is awakened by simply..., simply by..., simply hearing about Krsna. You hear about Krsna..., the more you hear about Krsna,

"Krsna," this very word is so transcendental, spiritual, that if you simply hear about Krsna-just like we are chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare-simply by hearing this chanting, this mantra, srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. If you hear about Krsna and if you join in that chanting "Krsna," then you acquire immediately some pious result, punya. Punya means pious, punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. Simply by hearing and chanting, you acquire results of pious activities.

Because we [who] are in this material world are all impious. Just like in the hospital. You take a hospital-you can take it for granted that all the members of this house, they are all diseased. Maybe the doctor may not be diseased, but the majority of the inhabitants of a hospital, they are diseased. That is not an exaggeration. Similarly, any living entity within this universe, this planet or that planet, that doesn't matter... There are 8,400,000 species of life within this universe, 900,000 species of life in the water, 2,000,000's as trees and plants. That is estimation in the Padma Purana:

So all these species of life, they are, who are within this material world, more or less they are sinful, exactly like that anyone who is in the hospital, he is supposed to be diseased.

So why we are put into this diseased condition of life? The diseased condition of life is symptomized by four symptoms: birth, death, old age and disease. You can live in any planet, but these four kinds of material disease will follow you-birth, death, old age and disease. The ant may live for, say, two days or three days or a week, and you may live for hundreds of years or one hundred years, and Brahma may live for millions of years. There are different grades of living entities, and they have got relative duration of life comforts, but nobody can escape birth, death, old age and disease. This is our condition.

So our real problem is... The Vedic culture, they point out that we are eternal. In the Bhagavad-gita it is also stated,

The living entities are never born or never dies. It is simply changing the body. That is going on. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. Just like if you change your dress, that does not mean you are finished. You can have another dress. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg 2.22] Similarly, we living entities throughout the universe, under different forms of life, we are continually changing our body in different types.

So when a man is actually advanced in knowledge, he can understand that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." That is stated in the Vedic language: aham brahmasmi, "I am Brahman, I am spirit soul." Unless the human society or human being comes to this point of knowledge, he is simply being defeated. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

A person may be very big man in material estimation, but if he does not come to the understanding of self-realization, "What I am? Whether I am this body or something else..."

I am not this body, that is a fact. We can understand that distinction, or difference between a dead man and a living man. What is dead man? Something is missing, or the person is missing who was occupying this body. So we say like that: "Oh, my father is gone." Where is your father gone? He is lying here on the bed. Why you say, "My father is gone"? Yes, actually he is gone. He has left this body. That's a fact. We say. But we do not know who was my father. I was accepting this body as my father or my son, and now I say "My father is gone" or "My son has gone," but the body is there.

So sometimes we come to the mistake or the correction that "I am not this body," "My father is not this body" "My son is not this body." But when one comes to the right conclusion, that "My father is not this body" or that "My son is not this body," "I am not this body..." So, "My father gone," "gone" means he has accepted another body; or "My son gone," means he has accepted another body. Just like if somebody leaves one apartment, if the friend comes, sees that my friend is not here, so he understands immediately that he has gone to some other apartment and enquires from the neighbors that "This gentleman, where he has gone?" Similarly,

So there is a long history of this knowledge, but unless one comes to this knowledge, the Bhagavata says, the Vedas says, that whatever he is doing, he is puffed up of his achievements, but he does not know that he is simply becoming defeated by the external energy, or maya. How he is defeated? In this way, practical: he could have accepted that "My father" or "My brother" or "My friend has gone somewhere," then whatever he accumulated-the skyscraper building, the big bank balance or the reputation-everything is left here, and where he has gone nobody knows. Is it not defeat? Yes, it is defeat. Anyone who is conscious, he can understand that "I am defeated." Yes.

So therefore real knowledge is brahma-bhūtaḥ. The Bhagavad-gita says,

If one becomes to the right platform of knowledge, brahma-jnana, atma-jnana, then he becomes relieved from all material anxieties-na socati na kahksati. These are material anxieties. We are simply lamenting, "Oh, I have lost this thing." Just like in your country, the great British Empire now more or less they have lost. Some of them are lamenting, and again somebody is trying to make another empire, hankering. So one who has lost, he is hankering [lamenting], and one is trying to get another empire, he is hankering. These two things are our disease, and so long there is hankering and lamenting, you cannot be at rest, you cannot be at peace.

But when you come to the right understanding of Brahman, spiritual knowledge, then you can be happy. That is the real platform of happiness.

At that time you can understand what is universal brotherhood, samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu. And after attainment of this platform of knowledge, or existence, mad-bhaktim labhate param: such person who is in brahma-bhūtaḥ condition, he can rise to the platform of bhakti-yoga-mad-bhaktim labhate param. And what is the result of attaining that bhakti? Now, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg 18.55]. If you want to know God then you have to come to this platform, bhakti,

Actually if you know..., if you want to know God, what He is, we simply say-not all-some of us say, "God is great." That is nice. "Allahu akbar," that is nice. But how great He is, what is His function as great, these things very few of us know. We simply theoretically accept God is great. Now this Krsna consciousness movement is the opportunity to know factually how God is great, what is our relationship with Him, how life can be perfected in relationship with God. These things are being taught in different ways.

We have got so many books; perhaps you have seen, they have demonstrated. Some of the books are here. We have got published at least twelve big, big books about this Krsna consciousness, God consciousness. When I speak "Krsna," please understand "Krsna" means God. You may call God in another name, that does not matter, but we Krsna conscious people, when we say "Krsna," we mean God, isvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ. That is the Vedic injunction.

Īsvara. Īsvara means controller. Every one of you has got some experience that you are controlled by somebody else. You cannot say that "I am not controlled by anyone." That you cannot say. Even if you are the richest man, then you are controlled by the government income taxes. Even if you say that "I am the richest man in this city or in this world," still you are controlled; you have to make different books. But everyone is controlled; therefore there is a controller.

So here in this material world you find some controller and you'll find another controller over him. Just like your queen, suppose she is controller, but she is controlled by the parliament, and the parliament is controlled by the public. So you go on seeing, you will find one controller over another controller. But when you come to the point to see a person that he is not controlled by anyone, He is God. That is the definition of God. God means He is not controlled by anyone: isvara parama.

Parama means supreme controller. He controls everyone, but He is not controlled by anyone. If you find out somebody... Don't accept cheap God. Now it has become a fashion so many Gods or incarnations of Gods are coming. But here is the factual definition, that God is He who is not controlled by anyone. Therefore God is great. Nobody can be greater than Him, nobody can be equal to Him. That is the shortcut definition of God.

So that definition is given in the Vedic literature that the supreme God, or the supreme controller, is Krsna-isvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ. But we are seeing controller, they have got a material body. But immediately the Vedic injunction is that sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ. God's body is sac-cid-ananda. Three things are there. These are transcendental qualities. Sat means eternal, cid means full of knowledge and..., sat-cit-ananda. And not dry, speculative knowledge, but ananda. In the Vedanta-sūtra it is said, ananda-mayo 'bhyasat [Vedanta-sūtra 1.1.12]. The spirit soul or the Supersoul is by nature blissful, always enjoying.

We are also part and parcel of God, therefore we are also hankering after blissful life, full of pleasure. But we are being hampered due to this material body. We are part and parcel of Krsna. We are always... This whole struggle for existence is about hankering how to become blissful. We are trying. Everyone in this city, London city, they are working so hard. Why? "How I shall become blissful, happy?" That is real human life. Everywhere, not only here. But there are different classes of men who are trying to be happy in different ways. They are classified in four division.

They are classified in four division. The first division is the karmis, the worker, or the fruitive worker. Generally everyone is like that. Everyone is working hard to get some profit, and out of the profit he wants to enjoy senses, and thereby he wants to become happy. They are called karmis. And one who is disgusted, or one who has failed to achieve happiness by working so hard like dogs and cats and asses, when he is disgusted, he gives up this attainment..., attempt: brahma satyam jagan mithya. He thinks that "This world is false. Now I shall search out Brahman." Brahma satyam jagan mithya. Renounced.

And another class is called yogi. They are also searching after happiness-by meditation, by searching out the prime principles of this world, paramatma. So he is also trying to be happy. Or some of the yogis, they are trying for siddhis-anima, laghima. They can become smaller than the smallest. We are the smallest, because our original constitutional position, magnitude is one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair.

So the yogis, they are trying to achieve some material power, mystic power, because they are thinking that by achieving this mystic power he will be happy. The aim is happiness. But the karmis are working in a different way, and jnanis, they are working in a different way, and the yogis, they are working in a different way. And there is another class, who are called bhaktas, devotees. They are also searching after happiness in a different way.

So out of these four classes of men... Of course in the animal society there is no such classification, because they are animals. They are simply interested to fulfill the bodily necessities of life: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But a human being is not only interested in these four principles of bodily necessities; he wants something else, and they are the four categories, karmis, jnanis, yogis and bhaktas.

Now bhaktas, so far bhaktas are concerned, they are practically, those who are pure bhakta, pure devotee, they have no demand. They have no demand. Their definition is given in the Vedic literature, anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. They have no desire. Jnana-karmady-anavrtam: they are above the results of jnana, yoga and karma. Then what do they do? Anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam: they simply want to satisfy Krsna, that's all.

That is actual life, because Krsna's part and parcel we are, living entities. So what is our business? We can understand it very easily. Just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. What is the business of this finger? I say, I will, "My dear finger, please scratch here." This finger's business is to serve the whole body. Any part of the body they are serving. And the stomach is simply eating, but all others serving. The enjoyer is saying, "You collect very nice foodstuff, palatable dishes." The hand collects, the leg goes, the eyes sees-but actually they collect, and the leg brings, the eye sees and the hands catches the foodstuffs and gives it to you. The hand cannot eat.

Similarly, if God is the center, then He is the enjoyer. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

If you want real happiness, peace, then engage yourself again to the service of the Lord, who is the supreme enjoyer. Just like this finger, if it is cut from this hand and thrown in the street, it has no value. But so long this finger is attached with this body, if there is some pain you can spend thousand of dollars, because it has got value. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, if we become attached to God, then we can become happy and we have got some value. Otherwise it is simply useless waste of time.

So our this Krsna consciousness movement is spreading this authoritative knowledge throughout the whole world. We are inviting all philosophers, all scientist, all thoughtful men, all religionist, "Come forward. Try to understand this philosophy of Krsna consciousness and take to it. You will be happy. The world will be happy."

Thank you very much. [devotees offer obeisances] [break]

Guest (1): …Krsna consciousness will help the world alongside other religions. Did you want other religions to take up Krsna consciousness, or do you want to [indistinct] other religions, so that all religions could work towards the supreme truth together?

Prabhupada: There is no other religion other than Krsna consciousness. What you call other religion, that is more or less Krsna consciousness. But there cannot be any religion which is not Krsna conscious. Krsna conscious means God conscious. If any religion has no concept of God, that is not religion. So any religion which is advocating love of God, understanding of God, we approve that that's a process of religion. But the test is how by executing or following that religion one has become lover of God. That is the test.

That is... In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said,

That is the first-class type of religion which teaches the followers how to love God. If that is not there, then-it may be any religion-but that is according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8], simply wasting time and labor, that's all. You test what religion is good by this criterion: how the followers are becoming lovers of God. That's all.

Syamasundara: Any other questions?

Guest (2): Do you feel that any legal[?] system is closer that type of quest than others?

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness was taught in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. So nothing is out of Krsna consciousness-politics, sociology, philosophy, religion, culture, anything. Everything is included in Krsna consciousness. But when it is executed in Krsna consciousness, it is perfect. Without Krsna consciousness, it is defective.

Guest (2): Do you feel that any system now that is closer?

Prabhupada: That I have already told. Any system you can bring forward, but we want to see whether by that system one has become Krsna conscious, or God conscious. Then it is perfect. Otherwise it is useless waste of time.

Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, why is it that some people have the concept that they are God?

Prabhupada: Because they are fools.

Guest (4): What is the meaning of "true communism"?

Dhananjaya: [explaining question] "What is the meaning of 'true communism'?"

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dhananjaya: "What is the meaning of 'true communism'?"

Prabhupada: "True communism" means that everything belongs to God, and every living entity, being son of God, has right to live. That is not limited with the human society; that is meant for all living entities. If you simply take care of the human being and send the animals in the slaughterhouse, that is not communism. You should feel that every living entity is part and parcel of God and everyone is living at the cost of God. So you have no right to encroach upon others' right. That is God consciousness. That is real communism. If you encroach, then you will be punishable.

Guest (5): If God is perfect, His creation should be perfect. Why is there so much imperfection?

Prabhupada: Because you have made it imperfect. God has not made imperfect. You are made perfect. Just like, this is example: You are God's creature; another animal is God's creature. Why you are slaughtering another animal?

Guest (5): Why do animals slaughter animals?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (5): Why do animals slaughter animals?

Prabhupada: Because they are animal. But you are a human being. You cannot do that.

Guest (5): But God created animals...

Prabhupada: You want to be like animal? Then what is the difference between animal and you? If you imitate animal, the slaughtering another animal, therefore I shall slaughter another man or animal, then you become animal. Why you distinguish yourself from animal? Then your civilization is that you want to become animal. That is a different thing. If you want to imitate animals, then you are animal.

Guest (6): Does Krsna consciousness means to lead the whole spiritual life?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness means perfection of life.

Guest (6): And that money and property make you [indistinct]. Then why do you have gold rings [indistinct] very expensive?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dhananjaya: "Why do you have gold rings?"

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dhananjaya: "Why do you have gold rings?"

Prabhupada: Because you have given me, just to please me.

Guest (6): Just to please you?

Prabhupada: Yes. If some my disciples gives me some ring-I have not purchased it-so just to please my disciple I put it. [laughter from devotees] And when there is opportunity, I give it to somebody. That's all.

Guest (6): Well, I don't think [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Why you are so envious? [laughter] That's not very good.

Guest (7): Is Krsna consciousness the same as Christ consciousness or Siva consciousness?

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness is perfect consciousness, and other consciousness is adulterated consciousness. Just like clear water and adulterated water, there are different grades of adulterated water. In some water there is less mud and some there is more mud. But actual water means clear crystal water. That is Krsna consciousness. Yes?

Guest (8): Would I be right in saying that the whole of every religion is "Do not do unto others what you don't want to be done to yourself"? That is the whole of the religion in every religion. Am I right in saying that?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee: [explaining] In every religion...

Guest (8): The whole of every religion...

Devotee: ...you should not do unto others as you do not wish done to you. That is the whole of any religion.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice. That's very nice. That is called samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu [Bg 18.54]: equal to all living entities. That is one of the qualification for being advanced in Krsna consciousness, to see everyone on the equal level. But that is possible when one is free from this material consciousness. That is not possible in the material consciousness. That is the beginning. In the beginning of the spiritual consciousness one can think in that way; otherwise it is simply lip sympathy. That I have already explained.

That samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu is the third stage in advancing in spiritual consciousness-to see everyone on the equal. Therefore we say that if you have got a right to live, then you should give the same right to other living entities. If you do not want to be killed, then why should you kill others?

And in Christian religion that is the first commandment: "Thou shall not kill." Every religion. Ahimsa paramadharma. Lord Buddha's. He says ahimsa, nonviolence, is the first class. So there are different grade of thought. But if you come to this platform, Krsna consciousness, everything you will find in your life in perfection.

Guest (9): I have no questions to ask, but I'd like to say that [indistinct] of love and affection and gratitude [indistinct] for coming here, and for all to you as bhaktas whom I see here on this platform. They are the real [indistinct] of the future, respected of the future through man. They will carry the banner of peace of love in the Christian countries. The Christians [indistinct]. And today, you, through Your Holiness, [indistinct] I see before me here... [end]