SPD07-04 Illicit Sex & Social Service, May 21, 1975, Melbourne
SPD07-04
Illicit Sex & Social Service,
May 21, 1975, Melbourne
Illicit Sex & Social Service,
May 21, 1975, Melbourne
Discussion with Director of Social Services
[00:14] [Prabhupada:] We are training; sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?"
[00:23] They criticize. These leaders of the society do not encourage.
[00:33] Now yesterday I was talking with one priest about illicit sex life. He said,
[00:42] "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." Just see.
[00:54] We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. .
[01:04] Our first condition is that one must give up these four things:
[01:10] illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling.
[01:18] This is my first condition, before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
[01:26] [Director:] That's what our people won't do. That's what our clients won't do.
[01:32] [Prabhupada:] Yes, they will do, if regular institution runs on with all facilities.
[01:40] We get so many devotees who come here.
[01:43] After some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. [break]
[01:52] [laughs] That was another brothel.
[01:56] [Madhudvisa:] The hippie farm. You came there.
[01:59] [Prabhupada:] And I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there.
[02:10] So I think if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution
[02:21] where people should be trained up how to become first class.
[02:29] Children should be trained up. That will make a solution.
[02:36] [Director:] Must change society, then. You have to change...
[02:38] [Prabhupada:] No, no. No change. Let society what it is.
[02:43] We train up some children, as we are doing in Dallas.
[02:48] And some men also, just like we have trained up. It is possible. This is practical example.
[02:56] So priest should be ideal character, and they are advocating homosex.
[03:02] Where is the ideal character man?
[03:07] If the priestly class, they are going to hospital for drinking habit
[03:12] and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?
[03:18] [Director:] But homosexuality is a sickness, you know, an illness.
[03:23] It's just like a person can't see. You wouldn't punish him for not seeing.
[03:26] You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That's what our society says.
[03:33] [Prabhupada:] Anyway, the priestly class sanctioning homosex.
[03:36] [Director:] Pardon?
[03:37] [Prabhupada:] Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex.
[03:40] And there was report that man and man was married by the priest.
[03:50] In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper.
[03:58] I have seen in that paper.
[04:00] They are condemning that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage.
[04:07] And they are passing resolution, homosex resolution, passing, "All right."
[04:14] And in Perth you said [to devotee] that the students are discussing about homosex,
[04:25] in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character?
[04:34] If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character.
[04:44] That is this Krsna consciousness movement.
[04:49] [Director:] But people will say what is ideal to you is not ideal to someone else.
[04:52] [Prabhupada:] I am giving the example, ideal character.
[04:55] [Director:] Yes. But that's one opinion.
[04:58] [Prabhupada:] No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion...
[05:03] What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses?
[05:08] No. There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the sastra. No opinion. [break]
[05:16] [Director:] And what if the brahmana starts to rule the world in their own interest?
[05:22] [Devotee:] He says what if the brahmanas started to rule the world for their vested interest?
[05:30] [Director:] Like the capitalist or somebody else might...
[05:32] [Prabhupada:] No, no... It is not vested. It is the character. Just like sama, what is the peaceful...
[05:40] [Director:] They might form a class of their own and have their own interest
[05:43] and try to rule the world according to...
[05:45] [Prabhupada:] No. Because they are honest. That is the world of difference. They will not do that.
[05:51] [Director:] They must go according to the book.
[05:52] [Prabhupada:] Yes. Honest means he is not for his own interest-for everyone's interest. That is honesty.
[06:00] [Director:] Now what if he's misguided? Suppose the world changes since that book was written.
[06:06] [Prabhupada:] No, no. Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India.
[06:11] This is the character of the brahmanas.
[06:14] Later on, gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years.
[06:23] Because India was subjugated by foreigners, the Muhammadans.
[06:29] They introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They introduced...
[06:34] Everyone wants their interest.
[06:37] The Britishers... When British rule came, their Lord Macaulay's private report was that
[06:46] "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindus, you'll never be able to rule over them."
[06:57] So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian.
[07:07] [Director:] How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the...
[07:13] [Amogha:] He says how would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building.
[07:19] [Prabhupada:] Rob?
[07:20] [Amogha:] A thief. What would we do if a thief came in?
[07:24] [Prabhupada:] If a thief came in we shall punish him.
[07:27] [Director:] You shall be violent?
[07:29] [Prabhupada:] Why not? A thief should be punished.
[07:34] [Director:] You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him?
[07:39] [Prabhupada:] No. Ourself or anyone, a thief, he has to be punished.
[07:45] A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter.
[07:51] A thief is thief. He should be punished.
[07:55] [Director:] What if he breaks in because he is hungry?
[07:59] [Prabhupada:] Who breaks?
[08:00] [Amogha:] He says, "What if he breaks in because he is hungry?" What if he becomes in as a thief because he wants something...?
[08:05] [Prabhupada:] We say everyone, "Come and eat." Why he should remain hungry?
[08:14] We invite everyone, "Come here, eat, no charge." We don't charge.
[08:19] So why should he remain hungry? Let us increase this program.
[08:25] "All hungry men of Melbourne City come here and take your eating sumptuously."
[08:33] We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry?
[08:36] [Director:] What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry?
[08:38] [Devotee 1:] We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night.
[08:42] [Director:] You do?
[08:43] [Devotee 1:] Yes
[08:44] [Director:] Just like the Gordon House?
[08:46] [Devotee 1:] Yes. They come, we feed them. We have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food.
[08:50] [Prabhupada:] It requires little time to practice; otherwise it is open for everyone. [break] It is above politics.
[09:00] [Director:] Pardon?
[09:01] [Prabhupada:] It is above politics.
[09:03] [Director:] From your point of view. But we in the department depend on political decisions.
[09:08] [Prabhupada:] Yes, the department means they are another set of...
[09:13] [Director:] Yes, that's just an instrument, yes, a public will.
[09:16] The minister is elected according to public will in our society.
[09:18] [Prabhupada:] Because they have made a department, just like your department.
[09:22] What is the department?
[09:24] [Director:] Social Welfare.
[09:25] [Prabhupada:] Social Welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics?
[09:34] If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?
[09:42] [Director:] Yes, well you're right.
[09:44] But in our society, a minister is elected to carry out certain policies.
[09:51] Not what he wants, but what the people voted for. And they are taxed to support...
[09:57] [Prabhupada:] But if your policy is social reformation...
[10:01] [Director:] Social reform is not our policy.
[10:03] [Prabhupada:] Then social welfare.
[10:05] [Director:] Just to look after those who are in trouble. That's our policy.
[10:10] [Prabhupada:] Well, everyone is in trouble.
[10:11] [Director:] Pardon?
[10:12] [Prabhupada:] At the present moment, even the ministers are in trouble.
[10:16] [Director:] Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody is in trouble.
[10:20] [Prabhupada:] "Physician, heal thyself." You see?
[10:23] They're also drunkards, they're also women hunters and meat-eaters and gambling.
[10:29] That's all. They require to be rectified.
[10:36] [Director:] But we can't help that.
[10:38] You have to go and change society, and society tells us to act differently.
[10:41] [Prabhupada:] No, no. Unless you change the society, how can you make social welfare?
[10:47] If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare?
[10:51] [Director:] You give it a different interpretation to the word.
[10:55] [Prabhupada:] Basically..., basically one must be first-class, ideal man. That is wanted.
[11:09] [Director:] That's why it is so very difficult.
[11:10] You have to work on your own, and you have to see that you're fit for the work. If you can convince enough people to...
[11:17] [Prabhupada:] Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us.
[11:24] You find out what is our fault...
[11:27] [Director:] I can't see any fault.
[11:30] [Prabhupada:] ...then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how can you'll not accept it?
[11:38] Unless you are biased?
[11:41] [Director:] Of course I am biased. I've been brought up differently.
[11:44] [Prabhupada:] Yes. Just like our...
[11:46] [Director:] Just like you're biased against my life.
[11:48] [Prabhupada:] No, we are not biased. Just like we are not biased; we are allowing.
[11:54] We say that if you want to be first-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities.
[12:03] That is our proposition.
[12:05] [Director:] But I, as a public servant, I'm not here to change society.
[12:11] [Prabhupada:] We're also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also.
[12:18] [Director:] Yes. Pardon?
[12:20] [Prabhupada:] We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also,
[12:24] if you are public servant. [laughter]
[12:27] [Director:] A public servant, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister
[12:33] elected by the people. In this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he votes accordingly.
[12:39] [Prabhupada:] Therefore we are reforming the public.
[12:41] [Director:] Yes, that's what I mean. [break]
[12:43] ...I might agree with you that if all of us would be Krsna...
[12:47] [Prabhupada:] Not whole. We don't...
[12:49] [Director:] Then we would be..., then social welfare would mean something different.
[12:51] [Prabhupada:] Now, just like we are proposing here. I'm not proposing-Krsna says-
[12:58] that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful?
[13:03] If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
[13:08] [Director:] You're quite right.
[13:09] [Prabhupada:] So that is the secret of success.
[13:13] You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful.
[13:19] So therefore we have to adopt this.
[13:22] [Director:] Yes, you have a competitive society.
[13:25] [Prabhupada:] We say that you chant Hare Krsna, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably,
[13:34] and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed.
[13:39] If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles,
[13:44] that let him chant Hare Krsna mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff
[13:51] we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
[13:57] [Director:] What's your answer that still such a small percentage of the population,
[14:02] tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that so-and-so...
[14:06] [Prabhupada:] Tiny percentage... Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon.
[14:17] In percentage, the moon is nothing. If you take percentage of the stars,
[14:24] the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars.
[14:32] But if you take percentage, there is no percentage vote. But because he is moon,
[14:38] he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example.
[14:47] What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon?
[14:52] Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage.
[14:58] One ideal man.
[15:01] Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
[15:05] [Director:] How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
[15:07] [Prabhupada:] Huh? What is that?
[15:09] [Amogha:] He says, "How do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?"
[15:11] [Director:] In China, he's the ideal man.
[15:14] [Amogha:] He's a Communist.
[15:15] [Prabhupada:] His ideal is all right. His ideal is, Communist idea, that everyone should be happy.
[15:24] That is good idea. But they do not know how to make everybody...
[15:28] Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state,
[15:32] but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless,
[15:41] they do not know the animal is also a living being,
[15:45] and the human being also living being.
[15:48] So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animals should be cut throat.
[16:06] If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..."
[16:16] [Director:] Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people who can be kicked out at any time.
[16:20] [Prabhupada:] That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal.
[16:24] That is the defect.
[16:28] [Director:] But that's how it is.
[16:30] [Prabhupada:] Then what can be done? Hopeless.
[16:32] [Director:] Well, you can work on the...
[16:33] [Prabhupada:] But we are going without depending on these rascals.
[16:37] We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement.
[16:41] We are honestly trying, that's all. That we are doing, all over the world.
[16:47] [Director:] All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently.
[16:49] [Prabhupada:] Yes, we are doing.
[16:51] [Director:] And when you do that, then the Social Welfare Department...
[16:55] [Prabhupada:] Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex,"
[17:04] have you got any objection?
[17:05] [Director:] Pardon?
[17:06] [Prabhupada:] If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex," have you got any objection?
[17:13] [Director:] Yes, I have.
[17:14] [Prabhupada:] You have?
[17:15] [Director:] Yes
[17:17] I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy it. We couldn't live without it.
[17:23] Our marriage is happier because we have sex.
[17:25] [Prabhupada:] Just see. This is the condition.
[17:29] [Director:] If it's good or bad, we are enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex.
[17:33] [Prabhupada:] No, we don't prohibit sex, but we prohibit illicit sex.
[17:37] [Director:] But I have two children. We use the pill, we use contraceptives,
[17:43] we use all kinds of things, because it makes our life...
[17:49] [Prabhupada:] Why do you use contraceptive?
[17:52] [Director:] Because we don't want any more children.
[17:54] [Prabhupada:] Then why don't you stop sex?
[17:56] [Director:] Because we like sex. Because we enjoy it.
[17:59] [Prabhupada:] That means you go to physician,
[18:02] "I want to do everything I like, still I want treatment." This is the position. You want...
[18:11] [Director:] I didn't come for treatment.
[18:12] [Prabhupada:] No, no, I say... No, no, you have come for treatment here...
[18:19] [Director:] I was invited.
[18:20] [Prabhupada:] Because you are paid to control the society, your activities;
[18:25] therefore you have come here, treatment.
[18:27] But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept.
[18:29] [Director:] I haven't come for treatment.
[18:30] [Prabhupada:] No. Yes. Otherwise why you come?
[18:33] [Director:] Well, you invited me.
[18:35] [Prabhupada:] Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities,
[18:40] to take some suggestion from us.
[18:42] But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position.
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