Interview with Professor Gombrich and Reporters – September 12, 1973, London

Central point is to understand God. People have become so foolish

[much background noise throughout]

Prabhupada: I have no spoon.

Hamsadūta: Someone's bringing it. Mukunda's bringing it.

Prabhupada: Where is? Give me little water.

Revatinandana: Pardon me?

Prabhupada: Water.

Revatinandana: What? Water.

Prabhupada: Yes, come here.

Reporter (1): I wonder if I could ask you first of all to tell me what is the central point of the teaching of Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: Central point is to understand God. People have become so foolish. They have forgotten to know about God, know about himself, what he is. Everyone is under the impression that "I am this body," which he's not. He's spirit soul. They're so much in ignorance, and there is no education. Even big, big professors. Professor Kotovsky, in Russia, he told me, "Swamiji, after this body's finished, everything is finished." That is not the fact.

Reporter (1): Can you tell me who is Lord Krsna?

Prabhupada: Well, Krsna is God, the Supreme Personality of God.

Reporter (1): And what will it profit us if we get to know about Him?

Prabhupada: The profit means you'll be saved from the material existence. Material existence means repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.

Reporter (1): How does He speak?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Reporter (1): How does He speak to you or to us?

Prabhupada: He was present five thousand years ago. He came on this planet and gave instruction, Bhagavad-gita. So that is recorded.

Reporter (1): Why have you written Bhagavad-gita as it really is? Why?

Prabhupada: As it is. Because there are many foolish rascals, they interpret unnecessarily. Just like Kuruksetra. Kuruksetra is a place in India, still existing. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ [Bg 1.1]. There the meaning is clear, that "Kuruksetra is a religious place and there, the Panḍavas and the Kurus, they assembled together for fighting." But many so-called leaders, political leaders, scholars, they have interpreted, "Kuruksetra means the body."

Reporter (1): Can you tell me the chant? Will you recite the chant to me? And then tell me why it's used so often by the followers?

Prabhupada: Which one?

Reporter (1): The Krsna chant.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. This, this is transcendental sound vibration. If you chant, then the foolish ignorance will gradually dissipate. You'll come to real knowledge. You'll be purified. In India still, there are many snake charmer. They, simply by mantra, they can get out the poison. Materially if it is possible, how much it is possible in spiritual?

Reporter (1): Can you tell me...? There's been an awful lot in these last two years said about the Jesus Movement. How does that sort of line up with Krsna?

Prabhupada: I do not know what is Jesus Movement. If you can explain, then I can speak. What is that Jesus Movement, I do not know.

Reporter (1): Well, do you know very much about Jesus?

Prabhupada: Jesus, I know.

Reporter (1): Tell me about him.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Jesus, the son of God, he's representative of God. So we have got all respect and honor for him. We worship him. But I do not know what is about Jesus Movement.

Reporter (1): Tell me a little bit about Krsna consciousness, will you?

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness means the same Bhagavad-gita as it is, which was spoken five thousand years ago by Lord Krsna Himself, we are preaching the same Bhagavad-gita. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna is accepted, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are preaching that "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna."

Reporter (1): Is Krsna consciousness genuine?

Prabhupada: Then we are simply wasting our time, do you think? By preaching Krsna consciousness, do you think we are wasting our time? We are so fools? Why do you ask this nonsense question, "genuine"? Unless it is genuine, why you are working so hard?

Reporter (1): Why is it so popular among young people?

Prabhupada: Because they have not got knowledge. Young people are receptive. Young people, education is given during youth time, not in old age. Old man cannot take any education. Whatever he has learned, he'll take another period of fifty years to forget that. Therefore sometimes it is called "old fools." But young men, they are receptive; they have got brain. When they understand that "Here is something," they understand.

Reporter (1): Many thanks. I'm very grateful... [break]

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Hamsadūta: Haribol.

[break] This gentleman's from the Sunday Mirror.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Hamsadūta: His newspaper, is that right?

Reporter (2): That's right. Ah...

Prabhupada: Oh, Sunday Mirror, they published some, something about us...

Hamsadūta: I think you published something about us a few weeks ago, about the manor out at Letchmore Heath.

Reporter (2): That's right. Yes. With a lot of pictures. Were you there at the time?

Hamsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Reporter (2): You were there at the time?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter (2): How've you... Where have you been since then?

Prabhupada: No, I went to Sweden. I have come yesterday from Sweden. I was in Sweden.

Reporter (2): Yes, since then. And now you're back again for the book.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now I have come again back to..., yesterday, and again I am going back to India.

Reporter (2): How long are you going to stay there?

Prabhupada: In Sweden?

Reporter (2): In India, when you go?

Prabhupada: Oh, in India, I shall stay about one week. Then I shall go to Japan.

Reporter (2): Do you find, uh, you must find it very, very difficult traveling all the time.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter (2): What don't you like about it?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hamsadūta: What don't you like about traveling?

Prabhupada: No, I like.

Reporter (2): Oh, you like it. Do you always go...?

Prabhupada: Yes, but because I am old man, it is little troublesome for me. Otherwise, I like traveling.

Reporter (2): What, what were you doing... What did you do before this, before 1966?

Prabhupada: I was retired from my family life. I was living in a holy place called Vrndavana. I retired from my family life in 1954. Then, in 1959, I took sannyasa order. This is called renounced order of life. No family connection .

Reporter (2): Yeah.

Prabhupada: And then I started for America in 1965. And then my movement was started from USA in 1966.

Reporter (2): From the USA. Could you tell me why you think the Western world has espoused your sort of movement now, has been keen on looking to the East for spiritual...

Prabhupada: Do they, actually?

Reporter (2): Why is that, do you think?

Prabhupada: That he can explain. He's Western people.

Reporter (2): But I mean, how about in your view?

Hamsadūta: He wants to hear it from you.

Prabhupada: They are getting some substance. You see. Just like here is a sweetmeat. If you have never tasted a sweetmeat before and if you are supplied a nice sweetmeat, naturally you appreciate and take it.

Reporter (2): But why, why in 1966? I mean what was there, what was there special about the Sixties?

Prabhupada: And before that, this thing was not administered.

Reporter (2): I mean the mood of the time might have been right then. I mean, was there something about that age that made it especially attractive to the young people?

Prabhupada: Young people, even young boys, they also take. So generally teeners...

Hamsadūta: Teenagers.

Prabhupada: Teenagers, they take it very nicely.

Reporter (2): Why was that? I mean, what was there, was there something special about the 1960s that made it more likely that people would go for...?

Prabhupada: But before that, this movement was not there in the Western country.

Reporter (2): I know that. But there's got to be a mood of the times before something like this can catch on.

Prabhupada: Well, that, not that time. Any time. This sweetmeat is sweet all the time. It is not that at a particular time it is sweet.

Reporter (2): But people have got to be hungry to eat it.

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes, hungry, everyone is hungry. Because in the Western countries, unless they are hungry for spiritual consciousness, why they are hippies? They are frustrated. They are not going to live like their fathers and forefathers.

Reporter (2): Frustrated?

Prabhupada: Yes. This material civilization, ultimately it will be frustration because... Just like... Try to understand. You are a person. You are covered with this coat and shirt. If I simply take care of your coat and shirt, and if I do not give you something to eat, how long you'll be happy?

Reporter (2): Not very long.

Prabhupada: That's right.

Reporter (2): Do you take this throne with you all the time?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Reporter (2): No. How, how does it come to be here?

Hamsadūta: We have a temple. So we bring it.

Reporter (2): And this is called?

Hamsadūta: This is called a vyasasana.

Reporter (2): And for...

Hamsadūta: The spiritual...

Reporter (2): A person, it's for a person, isn't it?

Hamsadūta: Yes, the spiritual master sits.

Reporter (2): Nobody ever else sits upon that platform.

Prabhupada: No.

Reporter (2): What happens to it when he's not here?

Hamsadūta: Nobody sits on it.

Reporter (2): It's still there, but...?

Hamsadūta: Oh, yeah.

Reporter (2): And lastly, a very trivial question. The uniform, the haircut, why is that?

Prabhupada: This shaving?

Reporter (2): Yes, why?

Prabhupada: It is very nice. It makes the head cool, not with big bunch of hair, burden. We feel it burden. When there is bunch of hair, we feel it is an extra burden.

Reporter (2): An extra burden on the mind?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter (2): Makes it, weighs heavily on the mind?

Prabhupada: Yes. Sometimes you have to take...

Reporter (2): So that's the reason why? It makes the mind lighter?

Prabhupada: No. Actually if you keep clean yourself, then your mind is also clean.

Reporter (2): But it is... Is it really because hair presses down on the mind? Is that true?

Hamsadūta: It's a burden, troublesome.

Reporter (2): I mean a physical burden.

Hamsadūta: Just like you have to get some, some hair cream and then a comb and a mirror and...

Reporter (2): Well, I don't. I just get up and go like that. But I mean, I mean, I mean...

Hamsadūta: You understand the point.

Reporter (2): Well, I mean, I do and I don't. I mean physically...

Hamsadūta: Very clean. Very clean...

Reporter (2): ...physically, it makes the hair, it makes the mind lighter. Is that true?

Hamsadūta: Very clean, cool. Natural. Practical.

Reporter (2): No, I know, but I mean, this thing about it actually weighing down on the mind, is that fair to say?

Hamsadūta: No.

Reporter (2): It's not fair to say?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter (2): It is fair to say.

Prabhupada: If you keep yourself very clean and light, then your mind will work very nicely.

Reporter (2): Better than if it was being weighed down.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter (2): That's fair, isn't it?

Hamsadūta: It's a matter of cleanliness. Not when...

Reporter (2): But he also says it's a matter of weighing down on the mind. That's fair.

Prabhupada: It is a Vedic system. All the brahmanas take clean-shaved. Vedic system. So we are trying to stay in the platform of brahminical culture. Therefore it is one of the essential things.

Reporter (2): I understand that. Thank you very much from me for your help. Thank you. Bye-bye.

[break]

Hamsadūta: ...a church. Which church?

Lady Reporter (3): Methodist Church.

Hamsadūta: Methodist Church.

Lady Reporter (3): Which is fairly advanced, really...

Prabhupada: Methodist Church is famous.

Hamsadūta: Methodist Church.

Prabhupada: Yes. I've seen many signboards.

Hamsadūta: Yeah. Do you have some questions?

Lady Reporter (3): Yes, I have. What, what is the real relationship between Krsna consciousness and other religions? Is it that God has many names and...?

[someone comes up, introducing someone]

Prabhupada: [chuckling] That's all right. I thank you.

Indian man: Mr. Bose, representing National Herald.

Hamsadūta: [to devotee] Maybe you can move this to the side. Just put it to one... Because people are going to be coming over and wanting to sit down.

Prabhupada: Oh, accha. [Bengali] Now, now, Mr. Bose... Let him come first of all. Give him a chair. Mr. Bose, let him come.

Lady Reporter (3): I'll come back later.

Prabhupada: Yes, three minutes. He's old man.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: [Bengali]

Hamsadūta: Shall I take this away?

Prabhupada: Yes. [Bengali]

Mr. Bose: [Bengali with Prabhupada] [break]

Prabhupada: She's waiting? Then I shall come.

Lady Reporter (3): Right, well [indistinct] some publicity.

Prabhupada: No, every religion has got God consciousness. Without God consciousness, there cannot be any religion. But somewhere we find the degrees of consciousness. Just like every living entity has got consciousness. A child has got consciousness, dog has got consciousness, and a human being has got consciousness. But there are degrees.

Lady Reporter (3): Do people lose this consciousness, the God...?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Lady Reporter (3): Do people lose God consciousness as they grow older?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Unless a person comes to God consciousness, his consciousness is imperfect.

Lady Reporter (3): Hmm. Hmm. And the actual importance of the Hare Krsna chant, is that in saying the name?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is a...

Lady Reporter (3): Or is it a...

Prabhupada: ...spiritual process.

Lady Reporter (3): ...continuous flow?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is spiritual process, because Krsna and the name Krsna, Krsna the person and Krsna the name, they are nondifferent, absolute. That is the God's special power. Just like in the material world, if you want water, simply by chanting the name "water," you'll not be benefited.

Lady Reporter (3): No.

Prabhupada: But in the spiritual world, the name "water" and the substance water is the same. Similarly, Krsna and Krsna's name is the same. So if you chant "Krsna," you immediately directly contact with Krsna.

Lady Reporter (3): What do you see as being the future of the world? What will happen? Will there be an end?

Prabhupada: Future, future of the world... Because the people are trained up in the bodily consciousness of life, "I am this body." So, so long people will remain in bodily consciousness of life, that is animal life. That is not human life. So they have to be educated to spiritual consciousness of life, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." Then they'll be benefited. Otherwise, they'll degrade more and more.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes, but what do you see happening to the actual world? Do you see any... You know, with Christianity and other religions...

Prabhupada: Eh, what is that?

Lady Reporter (3): You know, with Christianity and other religions, the world has...

Prabhupada: The Christianity, if you...

Lady Reporter (3): ...a beginning and an end.

Prabhupada: Yes. We also believe that, that the world has a beginning, and it has an end. Anything material. Just like my body, your body, it has got a beginning from the father, mother, and again it will end. So anything material, it has beginning and end. But the, within the body, the spirit soul, the spirit soul has no beginning, no end.

Lady Reporter (3): So how long has Krsna consciousness been in India, or were you...?

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness is in India from Vedic age, since a very, very long time. But especially since five thousand years ago, when...

Lady Reporter (3): So you, you didn't start everything off?

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I'm simply presenting in English language. That's all.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: It is already there.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes. What, what... And can I ask one last question?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Lady Reporter (3): What do you think of young people who follow the Divine Light Movement?

Hamsadūta: Guru Maharaj-ji.

Lady Reporter (3): And...

Prabhupada: That is a bogus.

Lady Reporter (3): It's bogus.

Prabhupada: Yes. [chuckles]

Lady Reporter (3): What about... How do you know? Have you met him?

Prabhupada: No. He says that he's God.

Lady Reporter (3): Hmm.

Prabhupada: Does he not?

Lady Reporter (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore it is a bogus thing.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Anyone who says that "I am God," he's a rascal.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes. Right. And what about the young Christian revival?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Lady Reporter (3): The Jesus Movement?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Hamsadūta: The Jesus Movement. What about it?

Prabhupada: Jaydees?

Hamsadūta: Jesus. Jesus Movement.

Prabhupada: I do not know. I do not know.

Lady Reporter (3): You haven't heard of it?

Prabhupada: No, I have no knowledge.

Lady Reporter (3): Well, thanks for talking to me.

Prabhupada: Thank you. You have take prasada. Plate.

Lady Reporter (3): Yes, I have. I had some.

Prabhupada: Yes, take prasada.

Lady Reporter (3): No...

[pause]

English girl: I've committed many sins in this lifetime. How can I make my peace?

Prabhupada: Eh? What is that?

Girl: I've committed many sins in this lifetime. How may I make peace?

Hamsadūta: She says she has committed many sins in this lifetime. How she can make peace?

Prabhupada: Chant Hare Krsna. That is the only remedy. What you are doing now?

Girl: Secretary.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Girl: Secretary.

Hamsadūta: Secretary.

Prabhupada: Secretary.

Hamsadūta: Typing, typing.

Girl: For The Tower.

Hamsadūta: So why not type for Krsna? We have got so much to type-books, manuscripts. Serve Krsna and chant Hare Krsna, and associate with these devotees. Then everything will be all right.

Girl: Thank you.

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Hamsadūta: Want to go now, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

English boy: I'm not from a newspaper, so I've got nothing really to ask you.

Prabhupada: Oh.

English boy: I'd like to...

Prabhupada: Which newspaper?

English boy: I'm not from a newspaper.

Hamsadūta: He said he's not from any newspaper, but he would like your blessings.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Chant Hare Krsna.

English boy: I do, regularly.

Prabhupada: Oh, you chant it? Very good. You chant Hare Krsna. Accha.

[aside:] Call that Jaya-hari.

Hamsadūta: Jaya-hari.

Prabhupada: Yes. Jaya-hari, no, Jaya-hari. What is the name?

Hamsadūta: Jaya-hari.

Prabhupada: Jaya-hari, eh? So what has happened to you?

Jaya-hari: I've been working in London, Prabhupada, on this reception.

Prabhupada: But when I go to London temple, I don't see you.

Jaya-hari: I've been working for others. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: I, I think there is something wrong. What is that?

Jaya-hari: Well, you see, I've just been very heavily engaged.

Prabhupada: No.

Jaya-hari: This reception I was working on.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jaya-hari: I've been working on this reception also.

Prabhupada: So you are a good boy. You were doing good book-selling. Now you have stopped. Why?

Jaya-hari: Well, this reception is one of the points for...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jaya-hari: One of the main reasons for having this reception was to help sell the books, also.

Prabhupada: No, I, no... You cannot forget your duty. If, if there is some extra duty, that does not mean you shall forget your own duty. So now they are selling books. You also join. Yes. And you have no tilaka. You are just like ordinary boy. Why?

Jaya-hari: I didn't have time to get into a dhoti.

Prabhupada: No, no. This is not good. This is not good. You must be as our representative, with tilaka, as we are dressed. Yes. Don't be deviated. You have got a good opportunity. Don't be deviated by bad association. Yes. You are a good boy. So you must revive to your original position. All right. Thank you.

Jaya-hari: Are you pleased by the reception?

Prabhupada: Oh.

Jaya-hari: This reception is all right?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hamsadūta: The reception. Did you like the reception?

Prabhupada: Ah, yes, nice.

[to boy:] So what is your question? You chant Hare Krsna. That will do.

English boy: I'm trying to spread the word at school. I'm telling all my friends about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Very good. That will help you. All right. So?

[break]

Prof. Gombrich: ...actually.

Prabhupada: Eh? Professor...?

Pradyumna: Professor Gombrich.

Prabhupada: Oh. So you have seen our books?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I have, yes. You are traveling to India, I hear?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prof. Gombrich: You are setting up a university in India?

Prabhupada: In... What is that?

Hamsadūta: Are you establishing a university in India?

Prabhupada: It is not so easy thing.

Prof. Gombrich: I see.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Prof. Gombrich: At Navadvipa?

Prabhupada: Navadvipa, yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes. And, uh...

Prabhupada: We have begun teaching, but I do not know when it will become a university. That is a big job.

Prof. Gombrich: I see, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Who is teaching there?

Prabhupada: Our students. We have got these books. That's all.

Prof. Gombrich: You don't have the Bengali panḍitas teaching Sanskrit?

Prabhupada: At least, at the present moment, we haven't got. They're... Generally, in India, they want to learn English. So, as soon as they learn English, they can read our books. And Sanskrit is also... You have seen? We have given each word meaning, Sanskrit, the pronunciation. Oh, yes. Here is the Bhagavad-gita As It Is.

Prof. Gombrich: So in your uni..., in Navadvipa, will the instruction be in English or in Bengali?

Prabhupada: These boys, they do not know Bengali.

Prof. Gombrich: Oh, I see. So it's really for English-speaking devotees.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not English-speaking. They are Bengalis, the students. But they want to learn English. Therefore we are teaching English.

Prof. Gombrich: I see. Is this a government-recognized college now?

Prabhupada: No. Government recognition means we have to abide by the orders of government. We cannot teach Bhagavad-gita only or Bhagavata. But our aim is to teach... We have got another school, in Dallas, for small children. There we are Sanskrit, teaching Sanskrit and English. Yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes. But did you yourself study Sanskrit at Vrndavana or...?

Prabhupada: No. We had studied Sanskrit in school, colleges. In our time, Sanskrit was compulsory. In our days. Nowadays, I don't think so...

Indian man: I, I also had compulsory up to...

Prabhupada: Sanskrit compulsory, and additional there was Sanskrit. So I took both, compulsory and additional.

Prof. Gombrich: I see.

Prabhupada: Up to my I.A., I regularly studied Sanskrit, and in my B.A., I gave up Sanskrit. I read history. [laughs] No. Not in B.A. B.A., my combination was economics and philosophy. In I.A., I.A. was intermediate. I.A. I had history and Sanskrit.

Prof. Gombrich: That was at Calcutta University?

Prabhupada: Yes. Calcutta University, Scottish Churches College.

Prof. Gombrich: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: You have been in Calcutta?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I have.

Prabhupada: Oh, you know Scottish Churches College?

Prof. Gombrich: I'm afraid not. No.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Prof. Gombrich: No, I'm afraid I've only been to Presidency.

Prabhupada: Presidency?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. So the Scottish Churches College is also on the same standard, Presidency College.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: So you are a teacher there? No.

Prof. Gombrich: I teach in Oxford, yes.

Prabhupada: You teach in Oxford?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: But in India went to visit?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I've lived for two years in Ceylon.

Prabhupada: Ceylon?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Prof. Gombrich: My speciality is Buddhism.

Prabhupada: Buddhism.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: A religious student. A specialist in religious..., comparative study of religion?

Prof. Gombrich: Well, not so much comparative. I main..., I really teach Buddhism itself.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Prof. Gombrich: Through Sanskrit and Pali.

Prabhupada: Pali, yes. Pali is almost Sanskrit language.

Prof. Gombrich: It's not so different, yes. Derived from Sanskrit. And at Vrndavana you studied at a later time, then, did you?

Prabhupada: Vrndavana, I studied the Vedic literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam, as I mentioned, so many, Upanisads, Vedanta-sūtra.

Prof. Gombrich: Then that was after the university?

Prabhupada: Yes, that was after my retirement.

Prof. Gombrich: I see. Yes.

Prabhupada: But in student life I had knowledge in Sanskrit, and that was utilized later on.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes, of course. And do you return to Vrndavana often?

Prabhupada: Yes. Every year I go there, during the month of October.

Prof. Gombrich: Do you have a particular asrama there?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes. Now we are constructing our own temple also, very big temple. You had been in Vrndavana?

Prof. Gombrich: No, I haven't, I'm afraid. No. And do you think that the message of Krsna consciousness or Krsna-Caitanya is very different from the message of realizing God which is promulgated in other religions, for instance the Saiva religion or...?

Prabhupada: No, I don't think so. Any religion, you follow nicely. Just [like] Christian religion, there is God consciousness. So actually it is not this religion or that religion. People have given up religion. All over the world they have no more interest in religion. And especially I see that in your London that so many churches are vacant. Nobody's going there. So thing is that there is no more regular teaching of religious system. It has become a profession like. Neither the teachers are serious, nor the students are serious. So our principle is that not this religion or that religion. Whichever religion you may like, you can follow, but we want to see whether you are God conscious. If you are not God conscious, then we take it simply useless waste of time, these so-called religions. Srama eva hi kevalam. You understand Sanskrit.

Srama eva hi kevalam: "Simply waste of time, laboring." If one does not understand what is God, even after executing very rigorously about his own religious system, if he does not awaken his dormant God consciousness or Krsna consciousness, then he has simply wasted time.

Prof. Gombrich: But do you think, for instance, in this country, if somebody is a Protestant, or I mean a Christian, and goes to church, this is also..., you don't try to convert them away from that?

Prabhupada: No, no. We have no such process [indistinct].

Prof. Gombrich: Because your movement is extremely distinctive.

Prabhupada: Yes. We don't try to convert. Just like the one gentlemen was asking, "Why these ladies, girls, they are putting Indian sari?" I never said that "You do that." But they're doing, out of their own accord. So I never canvassed to become a Hindu or like that. No. Our propaganda is, "Just become God conscious."

Any religion, it doesn't matter, if the follower awakens his dormant God consciousness that it is first class religion.

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: Now suppose somebody is not awakened to the standard of God consciousness, then he may follow religion but it is a waste of time. That is our... we don't want official religiousness, that is called, you know Sanskrit? Dharma dhvaji..

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: dhvaji means "flag."

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada:….Simply just to have a flag, I belong to this religion, that's all. But if I ask him, "what do you know about religion?" He cannot explain, what is God he cannot explain. Simply he has a flag," I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian," and they fight one another. But actually one who is God conscious where there is question of fight? Everyone is brother, God is the supreme father and we are sons:

That is God consciousness and as the Christian people, they are killing poor animals. If he has at all God consciousness why he should kill? And especially in the Christian religion it is stated, "thou shalt not kill."

Then last night that gentleman was asking me... that... "Thou shalt not kill, whom?" Oh no, where there is no question of whom. If you ask whom, at least you should not kill your father and mother. So, cow is the mother, according to Vedic understanding, cow is the mother because we are drinking milk. Cow supplies us milk therefore she is mother.

Prof. Gombrich: Well some people drink other milk too, like goats milk. Would... Is the goat the mother if you drink goat's milk?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: But generally we take cow's milk...

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada:…goats milk is sometimes also taken..

Prof. Gombrich: Yes in some cases..

Prabhupada: But there is no exception nobody can say that I have not taken cow's milk, nobody can say. All over the world and cows are meant for that purpose, supplying milk but we are killing mother and the father also. The bull is also father because the mother without having sex cannot produce milk that is not possible and besides that, bull they produce for us food grains. Therefore bull is considered as father and cow is considered as mother according to Vedic principles and in the Bhagavad-gita [Bg 18.44] it is specifically mentioned: krsi-go-raksa-vanijyam, vaisya-karma svabhava-jam. Go-raksa...

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: Not Go-hatya.

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: This is very sinful you see if one is religious, how he can become sinful? Do you think sinful man can become religious?

This is going on, in the name of religion they are covered in sin. That is the, I mean to say, the cause of religious degradation; veda viruddha karya kare, veda mukhe mane, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. They act against the Vedic principle but advertised himself, "I am Vedic, I believe in the Vedas." These nonsense things are going on. Christian going against the Christian principle but he is proud of becoming a Christian, all like that really.

In Buddha religion also, the president Dai Nippon & Co. who prints our books I asked him that you are Buddhist do you eat meat? He said, "yes." [Laughs] "yes, I am sorry I eat." These things are going on no religion will allow meat eating, even Mohammedans they allow only one death, Bakri Eid. You have studied Mohammadan religion?

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: Yes, so in Jewish religion also they allow meat eating after offering sacrifice, not from the slaughterhouse.

Prof. Gombrich: Not from, sorry?

Prabhupada: Not from slaughterhouse.

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: But they are regularly maintaining slaughterhouse these sinful activities are going on. So our movement we have got restriction anyone who comes to be serious student he must give up four sinful conditions. Illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication and gambling, all our students first of all they must agree to this principle then I accept him as my student.

Prof. Gombrich: Do you allow the use of leather?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Prof. Gombrich: Do you allow the use of leather?

Prabhupada: Leather?

Prof. Gombrich: Yes, leather.

Hamsadūta: Leather.

Prabhupada: No.

Hamsadūta: We avoid it.

Prabhupada: We avoid it. All our shoes are not made of leather, we don't agree. Nowadays there are so many plastic and other things are available everywhere. Leather is not prohibited because leather you can get from the dead animal.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes surely. Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. In our India those who are meat eaters they are called muci.

Hamsadūta: [aside] Huh?

Prabhupada: Very low class.

Prof. Gombrich: Hm.

Prabhupada: So when an animal is dead, a cow this class of men is called and he takes out the dead animal. So he eats the meat and saves the bones and horns and hoofs and takes out the skin, makes shoes. So all these things he gets for nothing. So after all the animal will die, let him wait for that period, why you should kill any living animal?

Prof. Gombrich: Do you use leather in your drums?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Prof. Gombrich: What about the drums?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes the dead body.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: When the cow is dead that leather can be used.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes so you have leather drums.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Yes.

Prabhupada: Leather has there so many use but that leather is collected after the death of the animal, not by killing.

Prof. Gombrich: No.

Prabhupada: Yes…yes that is our principle, yes.

Prof. Gombrich: Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. [end]