Room Conversation with Satish Kumar, Editor of Resurgence Magazine – July 30, 1973, London

All sūdras, or less than sūdra

Prabhupada: ...things are there, how you can reject one and accept another? It must be properly utilized.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly himsa, when it is used for... Just like in Manu-samhita it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also himsa, to get a man hanged. But Manu-samhita says that this kind of himsa is necessary. Because the man who has committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished.

Otherwise, from next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to sastra, himsa..., ahimsa is good, but when there is necessity, himsa is also good.

Satish Kumar: Yes. When there is right himsa, then it becomes a right action.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: And therefore it is no more himsa. But when the devilish...

Prabhupada: And actually it is not himsa.

Satish Kumar: Actually it is not himsa, exactly, but...

Prabhupada: Just like father gives a slap.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, it is not himsa.

Prabhupada: It is not himsa.

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Similarly, the himsa, so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, that is not himsa. That is love.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Krsna...

Prabhupada: Then it is himsa.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Then it is himsa. And I am against that himsa which is not directed by Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right.

Satish Kumar: [laughs] Yes. And especially today in the society we are living in, nuclear age, where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Krsna is...

Prabhupada: That is himsa.

Satish Kumar: That is himsa.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean...

Prabhupada: That you have understood. That is my point.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: That so-called himsa, when it is directed by Krsna, is not himsa.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's...

Prabhupada: The same example as I gave, gave you, that when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not himsa. It is doing good to him.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Krsna.

Prabhupada: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Krsna's representative, nara-devata. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Krsna. Just like Krsna's business is paritranaya sadhūnam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg 4.8].

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful.

Satish Kumar: But today's kings...

Prabhupada: Today's no... I'm speaking the principle. Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupada: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the king, exactly like God. Why? Because king is supposed to be representative of God.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Supposed to be.

Prabhupada: Our Vedic conception is catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13]. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, this catur-varna. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brahmana, whether he's acting as a brahmana. Nowadays, that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as a sūdra, but he's claiming to be brahmana.

Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Prabhupada: You see?

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king... It is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "doctor" or "medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brahmana, he must act as a brahmana. If one is claiming to be ksatriya, he must act as a ksatriya. Now, what are the qualification of brahmana, what are the qualification of ksatriya, they are there already in the Bhagavad-gita.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So it is government's duty, that you are claiming. So everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called sva-dharmeni-dhanasya[?]. Sva-dharma means the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. By quality. Guna-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a sūdra is employed, is engaged as a sūdra, a vaisya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaisya. Vaisya, it is said that krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. Now the vaisyas, they are in the share market, speculating.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. There are no more vaisyas. [laughs] Exactly.

Prabhupada: Industrialist. Industrialist means sūdras. So if they're sūdras, why they should claim as...

Satish Kumar: Vaisyas.

Prabhupada: This is government's duty, to see, "Why you are claiming vaisya? Your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, to give protection to the cows." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaisyas are big, big Birlas, big, big Dalmias. You see.

Satish Kumar: Sitting quiet. [laughs] Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly brahmanas. Nehru, he was a brahmana. What did he do as a brahmana? But he was at the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Krsna consciousness, and the vaisyas are no more following their duty...

Prabhupada: This is, this is... This world is material world. And...

[aside:] Why don't you come here? You can take another pad, sit comfortably.

Lady guest: It's too hot over there. Because of the fire.

Satish Kumar: She's very hot.

Prabhupada: [aside:] So, you can open this. I keep little water, rheumatic.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: You can sit down near me.

Devotee: Would you like a chair?

Lady guest: No.

Satish Kumar: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...

Prabhupada: That anyone can do at any moment.

Satish Kumar: Hmm?

Prabhupada: Any moment.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical... To bring it back. Yes.

Prabhupada: Practical action... If you give up... If a brahmana gives up his sva-dharma, then it becomes a varna-sahkara.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Kula-dharma.

[aside:] What is that in the Bhagavad-gita, we were reading yesterday? Jati-dharma, kula-dharma.

So they produce varna-sahkara. If one does not follow the jati-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of the varna-sahkara. Sahkaro narakayaiva [Bg 1.41]. So when a person born in brahmana family is not acting as a brahmana, he's varna-sahkara. So when there are number of people varna-sahkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakayaiva. Sahkaro narakayaiva.

[aside:] What is that? Read that.

"With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice."

Prabhupada: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gita. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jati-dharma, and creating varna-sahkara... Varna-sahkara... Just like brahmana, ksatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process, dasa-vidha-samskara. So the first samskara is garbhadhana. So in this Bhagavata it is said by Narada that as soon as garbhadhana-samskara is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes sūdra. So who is observing the garbhadhana-samskara? Nobody.

Satish Kumar: [laughs] Nobody.

Prabhupada: Therefore, kalau sūdra-sambhavaḥ. Ka... In this Age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as sūdra. No brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. All sūdras, or less than sūdra.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Pancama. This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform them, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible; it is Kali-yuga. Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ . They are very slow, they'll not accept the right path... Just like God is here, Krsna, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28].

But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders, they are saying, "well, Krsna, why Krsna should be accepted as God?" Even big, big leaders, they did not believe that Krsna was there on this planet, there was Kuruksetra battle... You know better than me.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So, if big, big scholars say, when Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... [Bg 18.65], the scholars say, "It is not to Krsna." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment.

The leaders... Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jati-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varna-sahkara.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Everybody is varna-sahkara.

Prabhupada: This is it. Therefore the only remedy is,

This is the only... This Krsna consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings which has come. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...

Satish Kumar: Hmm. But what...?

Prabhupada: It is most scientific.

Satish Kumar: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the...

Prabhupada: Yes, bhakti-yoga in its preliminary stage is karma-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So karma, when you...

Satish Kumar: Yoga karma sukhosanam[?].

Prabhupada: Akarma sukhosanam.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So you are addicted to karma.

Satish Kumar: Hmm.

Prabhupada: So if you bring bhakti, karma-misra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jnana. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jnana-misra-bhakti or jnana-yoga. So these things are there. Just like karma-yoga: yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg 9.27]. This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Krsna says, yat karosi.

Yat karosi: never mind, even if you are a thief, your business is stealing-you steal. Yat karosi means that includes everything. Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi, kurusva tat mad-arpanam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu [Bg 2.47].

Satish Kumar: Ma phalesu.

Prabhupada: This is karma-yoga-when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Krsna, that is karma-yoga.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah, but karmany evadhikaras te...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: This is the, the point where...

Prabhupada: Yes, you have to work.

Satish Kumar: Yeah.

Prabhupada: You see?

Satish Kumar: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment with the result, I accept, I agree with it.

Prabhupada: But Krsna says that kurusva mad-arpanam [Bg 9.27]. The result must be there.

Satish Kumar: Yes. But that should be...

Prabhupada: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot...

Satish Kumar: Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore it must be given to someone. So who is the perfect person who can take it? That is Krsna.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah.

Prabhupada: So yat karosi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Krsna. Therefore it is bhakti-yoga or karma-yoga, whatever you...

Satish Kumar: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: But Krsna is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, and that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight?

Prabhupada: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kuruksetra.

Satish Kumar: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our...

Hamsadūta: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do?

Prabhupada: The Krsna's representative will tell you. Krsna is not there, but Krsna's representative is there. So you have to ask the Krsna's representative.

Satish Kumar: So that's why I have come to you...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: ...to ask you.

Prabhupada: If you think me a representative of Krsna, I can help you. [everyone laughs]

Satish Kumar: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: They're thinking, "And to become Krsna's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult.

Satish Kumar: It is not difficult.

Prabhupada: Because Krsna... Who is Krsna's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that,

You understand Bengali?

Satish Kumar: No.

Prabhupada: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ajnaya, order?" That yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa' [Cc Madhya 7.128]: "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Krsna has spoken." That's all. So what is the difficulty? If we speak what Krsna has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, without my interpretation, not nonsense. No.

Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg 7.7]: there is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that "Here is Bhagavan, Krsna. There is no more superior person or authority than Krsna." So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. We are saying the same thing. Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Krsna."

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: "Don't bother with any other things." Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. So we are teaching them that always think of Krsna, always become devotee of Krsna, always offer obeisances to Krsna. So where is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Krsna's representative. Who is representative?

What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Krsna and take Krsna's book Bhagavad-gita and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Krsna has spoken. He'll speak his own words on the authority of Krsna's [indistinct].

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad-gita? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gita? But that is going on. They take the advantage of Bhagavad-gita and speaks their own nonsense things. They're not representative of Krsna. Krsna's representative is he who exactly speaks what Krsna has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Krsna's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Krsna.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66], Krsna is speaking in a context of a clear, defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us.

Prabhupada: Why not available?

Satish Kumar: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the...

Prabhupada: Now, Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66].

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as "religion."

Satish Kumar: No, no.

Prabhupada: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation.

Satish Kumar: Activity?

Prabhupada: Activity, occupation.

Satish Kumar: All activities.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Krsna says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it is..."

Satish Kumar: But He's saying sarva-dharman parityajya... [Bg 18.66].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: ...not sarva-karman parityajya.

Prabhupada: Dharma means karma. Dharma means activity. Just like a brahmana...

Satish Kumar: But activity...

Prabhupada: [indistinct]... how he can understand the Brahman? Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13].

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So this dharma, brahmana-dharma, ksatriya-dharma, they are divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brahmana, he's practicing, samo damas titiksa arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.42]. These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhava-jam. Ksatriya-karma svabhava-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brahmana's executing the karma of brahmana, his dharma.

Satish Kumar: Yes, but then karmany evadhikaras te...

Prabhupada: Karmani means that you are as you are...

Satish Kumar: No, no [indistinct] evadhikaras te. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Anyway...

Satish Kumar: 'Cause activity...

Prabhupada: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.42].

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is karma. So brahmana's activity means brahmana. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yajana pathana pathana dana pratigraha [SB 5.17.11 purport], these are brahmana's.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizen, to become in charitably disposed. Everything is described there: these are these ksatriya's karma; these the brahmana's karma; these are the, eh, vaisya's karma; these are the sūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brahmana, you have to act as a brahmana.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: You are ksatriya, you have to act as a ksatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock, offering mahgala-arati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Krsna mantra, then taking their class and taking prasadam, then going to outside for performing sahkirtana, for distributing book.

Whole day, twenty-four hours, karma. So therefore outsiders, they cannot understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing. What kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means "Just close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that.

Satish Kumar: Bhakti is the quality...

Prabhupada: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was given the certificate-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity, what is the quality of activity. Yes. How you can live without being active? You are living being. That is not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of activity. That makes one karma-yogi, jnana-yogi, dhyana-yogi, bhakti-yogi. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Can I ask you another...

Prabhupada: Therefore it is called karma-misra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.

Satish Kumar: No, no.

Prabhupada: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.

Satish Kumar: There's no karma. Yes.

Prabhupada: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...

Satish Kumar: Akarma, then it comes akarma.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is very high state. But originally...

Satish Kumar: Akarma, then it comes akarma.

Prabhupada: Ah, akarma.

Satish Kumar: Sannyasa.

Prabhupada: No, more than akarma.

Satish Kumar: Sannyasa?

Prabhupada: More than a... Sannyasi is akarma, yes. Sannyasi is also not akarma. Sannyasa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gita: anasritaḥ karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yaḥ [Bg 6.1]. That is also karma. Karyam karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyasi. "It is my duty"-on this principle when one works, he is sannyasi. He does not work for himself; he works for Krsna. And that is sannyasa. Anasritaḥ karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result.

Anasritaḥ karma-phalam. Karyam: it is my duty. Karyam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma. Sa sannyasi. So how you can say in sannyasa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done. The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Krsna, to satisfy Krsna, anukūlyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc Madhya 19.167].

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma?

Prabhupada: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness.

Satish Kumar: No, not [laughs] in the sense of Gita.

Prabhupada: Karmano hy api boddhavyam [Bg 4.17]. So akarma means, that is bhakti also. Akarma means, just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9]. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajnarthe, for Visnu, for Krsna, that is not karma, that is akarma. So you can see. It does not produce, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs 5.54]. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma."

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three.

Prabhupada: That... Vikarma means... Karma means you act according to the injunction of the sastra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate, violate the injunction of the sastra.

Devotee: Violate.

Prabhupada: Violate.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the sastra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. That's the vikarma.

Prabhupada: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the sastra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. So generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities..., no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūna panam duta yatra papas catur-vidhaḥ [SB 1.17.38]. Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the sastras. Illicit sex life. You cannot indulge in sex life without marriage; that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the sastra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma; you are becoming bound up, being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs 5.54]. Otherwise, beginning from ant up to the Brahma, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Vi... But is it not like vasistham jnanam vijnanam?

Prabhupada: Ah?

Satish Kumar: Vasisthan karman vikarman? Not like that? "Vi-" is generally used as to..., a sort of [indistinct], to give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijnanam-jnanam vijnanam; karmam vikarmam. So this a little..., what is this root of the language? I don't...

Prabhupada: Jnanam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is. Jnanam means theoretical knowledge, and vijnanam means practical knowledge. Jnanam vijnanam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life... Just like yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9]. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajna.

Yajnad bhavati parjanyo parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg 3.14]. These things are there. So everyone should act for yajna, Yajnesavara. In the Visnu Purana it is said, varnasramacaravata purusena paraḥ puman, visnur aradhyate [Cc Madhya 8.58]. If you act according to varnasrama, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, never mind, whatever you are... Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord, Visnu. Visnur aradhyate.

Satish Kumar: Hmm.

Prabhupada: Nanyat tat-tosa-karanam [Cc Madhya 8.58]. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varnasrama-dharma. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varnas, that is animal society; everything is chaos.

[some people talking aside]

Satish Kumar: You want to ask anything?

Lady guest: No.

[aside:] [whispering]

My understanding is that you surrender unto Krsna first, and then you know what to do.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So we are teaching this sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66], just to surrender to Krsna. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But what happens, that some people have a social dimension, social-political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness. But then it seems to me-I'm just asking-that we, when we are emphasizing this Krsna consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social-political dimension. So how to bring this...

Prabhupada: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Krsna did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking?

Satish Kumar: No, no, I'm not saying Krsna did not take. I'm just saying that it seems, at least sometimes, it seems that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough-and I'm not saying it is not there, but it's not clear enough-the social-political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear.

Prabhupada: No, it is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it will be clear. It is very clear. Krsna gives direction that this is the business of the brahmana, this is the business of ksatriya. So politics is the business of the ksatriya. So if you act according to Krsna's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mala and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a ksatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaisya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction.

Krsna is giving direction: "This is brahmana's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brahmana. But if you act whimsically, then where is your surrender? And why do you become a brahmana? Then it is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Krsna, they do not abide by the direction of Krsna, still, they have become leaders. Therefore whole thing is chaos.

Satish Kumar: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now we are, Ann and myself and June[?]..., we are publishing a magazine called Resurgence.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: And... John Papworth came yesterday?

Mahadeva: John Papworth was here a few days ago, yes.

Prabhupada: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him.

Satish Kumar: Yes, he was editor before.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking-Mahadeva was also in it-but how we can bring this total understanding together? So we..., because when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first go, they are not...

Prabhupada: We are presenting...

Satish Kumar: ...they understand the way of communication.

Prabhupada: Yes. So we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Krsna." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? [everyone laughs]

Satish Kumar: [laughs] Yes.

Prabhupada: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12].

Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpana-marjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly, when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly.

Satish Kumar: In order to clear your heart you have to chant.

Prabhupada: That is it.

Satish Kumar: Right.

Lady guest: What about meditating?

Prabhupada: This is the best medicine, meditation.

Lady guest: It's better than the other kind?

Prabhupada: When meditation... Meditation, dhyana, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That is another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Krsna!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. [laughter] When there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear, they also hear.

Lady guest (2): What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them.

Devotee: But Krsna is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Krsna taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Krsna consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Krsna consciousness.

Lady guest (2): Oh, I see.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Krsna is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? [everyone laughs]

Satish Kumar: No conflict.

Lady guest (2): I am not sure. I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean...

Prabhupada: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. Just like Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They will support: "This killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that." They want to kill. That's all. There is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But you do not follow, at the same time you say you are Christian, there is conflict.

It is clearly stated-I've asked so many Christian that "Why you kill?" Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretation. There is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shall not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses?

Lady guest (2): But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? he thought...

Prabhupada: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now.

[pause]

If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shall not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it?

Satish Kumar: True.

Prabhupada: Just see Arjuna-you are talking of Arjuna-before fighting, before killing, so many things he's getting clarified. Ah? Katham sva-janam hantum [indistinct] [Bg 1.36]. Just see. "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill.

[aside:] Hmm. What is that?

"O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"

Prabhupada: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that [indistinct] he began to kill. No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see this is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church, although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things? Why?

Satish Kumar: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious...

Prabhupada: Life.

Satish Kumar: ...experience in life.

Prabhupada: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply by rubber-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets?

Satish Kumar: Same as you were saying: Nehru was not a brahmana, but only because he was called brahmana. So...

Prabhupada: No, why Nehru? Everyone.

Satish Kumar: Everyone.

Prabhupada: Everywhere. Unless he follows the principles of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a sūdra. Kalau sūdra-sambhavaḥ. That's all.

Satish Kumar: [laughs]

Prabhupada: But there is no disappointment. Krsna says,

So even one is sūdra, we can give him deliverance by this Krsna consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a sūdra. But Krsna says, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ, even lower than the sūdra, te 'pi yanti param gatim, if he accepts Krsna, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become sūdra. There is remedy also.

Satish Kumar: Even the sūdras can...

Prabhupada: Yes. Lower than sūdra. Why sūdra? Kirata-hūnandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanaḥ khasadayaḥye ye 'nye ca papa [SB 2.4.18], or even the papi, sudhyanti, they become purified if they accept the real representative of Krsna, prabhavisnave namaḥ. Yad-apasrayasrayaḥ. Everything is there in the sastras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the sastras, everything can be remodeled; everything can be good. There is no cause of disappointment. But unfortunately, they'll not agree. Yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karataḥ, na siddhim sa avapnoti [Bg 16.23].

One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative sastra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avapnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? That is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the sastra. Now, Krsna is accepted the supreme authority by all the acaryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Nimbarka, Lord Caitanya...

Satish Kumar: Sahkaracarya.

Prabhupada: Sahkaracarya. They all accept Krsna, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept, all. So how can you defy all these acaryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense.

Satish Kumar: But all these acaryas interpret in different, different ways.

Prabhupada: No. No.

Satish Kumar: No?

Prabhupada: On the principle, they never. Just like Sahkaracarya and Ramanujacarya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments in Bhagavad-gita. Sahkaracarya, although he is impersonalist, he says, narayanaḥ paraḥ avyaktat: "Narayana is beyond this cosmic manifestation. He's transcendental." That means he says He's person. Narayana, as soon as Narayana, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in a spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy..., he started the philosophy brahma satyam jagan mithya.

Satish Kumar: Brahma satyam jagan mithya.

Prabhupada: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithya. Sahkaracarya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college or hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithya, then why should we bother all these things?

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So who is following Sahkaracarya? And they say that "We are followers of Sahkaracarya," and they are engaged... Sahkaracarya follower means he must become first of all sannyasi, then talk anything else. So who is taking..., going to do that?

Satish Kumar: And all those Sahkara Matha and Sahkaracarya's various places in India don't live as jagat was mithya. [laughs]

Prabhupada: No, jagan mithya... We don't say jagan mithya.

Satish Kumar: No.

Prabhupada: We Vaisnavas, why should I say jagan mithya? If God is truth, what is created by Him, that is also truth. That is also truth. Because Krsna says, bhūmir apo 'nalo vayuḥ kham mano buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg 7.4]. Me, "My." So why shall I take Krsna's things as false? If Krsna is truth, His things are also truth. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say.

Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Krsna, it can be used for Krsna's purpose. That is karma-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone, here is a tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say, "No, no, no, we are Krsna conscious, we cannot touch this material thing..." We don't say like that. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has connection with Krsna, so why shall I call it as material? Parityaga. This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvami,

The mumuksu, the Sahkarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world.

Satish Kumar: He who wants liberation.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Mumuksu.

Prabhupada: Yes. Mumuksu. So this mumuksu, they're giving up these material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari-sambandha.

Satish Kumar: Yes, hari-sambandha.

Prabhupada: They do not know this art.

Satish Kumar: Krsna connection, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Now people know only "French Connection." They've forgetten Krsna connection. [laughs] Yes, very true.

Prabhupada: But we see everything has got Krsna connection. Therefore we utilize it for Krsna. Just like you're talking about Krsna, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Krsna's service. Why shall I give it up? Because the aeroplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. In every year I am wandering all over the world twice, thrice. Because if you use aeroplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Krsna consciousness movement, why shall I give it up, "It is mithya"? Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car?

So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairagya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk these things underneath a tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree, nobody will come to me. [laughter] Just see. So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.

Yukta-vairagya. After all, you have to practice vairagya. Not under attachment. But in connection with Krsna nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithya, how do they consider mithya. Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithya, but they are accepting it, under a different name-"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital..." They're coming to the mithya platform under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithya, why you are starting a school?

Satish Kumar: Yes. Only way is to sannyasa.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is not sannyasi business. For starting a school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satya you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satya. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So people will not give him alms, so he must show that "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this. Give me some [indistinct]." That's all. "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithya, why you are coming again to this mithya platform?

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.

Prabhupada: Detachment, that is required.

Satish Kumar: Anasakta.

Prabhupada: Yes, detachment and jnana. Jnana-vairagya.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. The jnana-vairagya.

Prabhupada: This is the real achievement of human life, that jnana-vairagya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty asu vairagyam. Janayaty asu vairagyam. Just like these boys.

Satish Kumar: Quick detachment.

Prabhupada: Ah? Immediate...

Satish Kumar: Instant, instant, asu vairagya.

Prabhupada: Asu vairagya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke," or "I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty asu vairagyam. They have kicked out all these things. Practically you can see.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. [everyone laughs] This is vairagya. They do not want anything except Krsna. They do not want anything except Krsna. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they have got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, in the Western countries. How they have given up? Jnana-vairagya. Janayaty asu.

Satish Kumar: Vairagya, yes.

Prabhupada: Asu, "very immediate."

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Instant.

Prabhupada: Instant.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So bhakti-yoga is so powerful. Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty asu vairagyam... [SB 1.2.7].

Satish Kumar: Is this in the Gita, in Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam.

Satish Kumar: Bhagavatam, yes.

Prabhupada: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.

Satish Kumar: But he was not in power or position.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, that "You have so much respect now. Now you have got sva-rajya, you give up this business. Let us preach Bhagavad-gita. People will hear you." Before starting this Movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.

Satish Kumar: But he was praying..., he was going to pray Hare Krsna. He was devotee.

Prabhupada: He was for political emancipation.

Satish Kumar: Hmm?

Prabhupada: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...

Satish Kumar: [laughs]

Prabhupada: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairagya, even up to the point of death.

Satish Kumar: Yes, true.

Prabhupada: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pant... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither they did know that there is necessity of vairagya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the acaryas, they're all vairagis, either Sahkaracarya, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, they're all sannyasis. Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All vairagis. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairagi. Even Lord Buddha, vairagi. This is required. But where is the vairagya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairagya. This is the first step, vairagya, bhaktiḥ paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42].

That is sarva-dharman parityajya. This is vairagya.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya means vairagya [Bg 18.66].

Satish Kumar: Yes, means vairagya.

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise, we are embarrassed with so many dharmas-social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brahmana-dharma, sūdra-dharma, so many. Therefore Krsna says sarva-dharma.

Satish Kumar: All of them.

Prabhupada: All give up. This is vairagya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya [SB 1.2.12]. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. The bhakti-yoga means, jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana and vairagya there must be.

[aside:] Can you find that verse?

Prabhupada: Pas... Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. Jnana and vairagya. Without jnana-vairagya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then?

Pradyumna: Pasyanty atmani catmanam...

Prabhupada: Ah.

Pradyumna: ...bhaktya sruta-grhitaya.

Prabhupada: Bhaktya sruta-grhitaya. Sruta-grhitaya: by hearing from authority. Sruta. Grhitaya. Jnana-vairagya-yuktaya. This is the process. Tac chraddadhana munayo jnana-vairagya-yuktaya, pasyanty atmanam atmani, sruta-grhitaya..., bhaktya sruta-grhitaya [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process.

Satish Kumar: By devotion, by listening, you receive and see the self...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: ...in himself.

Prabhupada: Yes, within the self.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Atmani atmanam. [break]

Prabhupada: What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vasudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..."

Prabhupada: This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55]. Never says by jnana mam abhijanati or by karma mam abhijanati.

Satish Kumar: Only bhakti, yes.

Prabhupada: Go on.

Pradyumna: "...who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramatma is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings: the karmis, the jnanis, the yogis and the devotees.

The karmis are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute Person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person."

Satish Kumar: Who are those three, jnanis...?

Prabhupada: Jnanis, yogis...

Satish Kumar: And karm...

Prabhupada: Karmis, jnanis, yogis...

Satish Kumar: And bhaktis.

Prabhupada: So karmis are not transcendentalist. They're materialists. But jnanis, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalist.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. So jnanis are third class.

Prabhupada: Yes. Jnanis are...

Satish Kumar: Why?

Prabhupada: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.

Satish Kumar: I see. They're intellectual.

Prabhupada: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.

Satish Kumar: Ah.

Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54]. They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramatma, Visnu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas. They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Krsna. This is the result of bhakti.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence.

Prabhupada: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabai was a bhaktini?

Prabhupada: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.

Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialog.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhari"?

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.

Prabhupada: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?

Satish Kumar: Resurgence.

Prabhupada: Resurgence.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are... In the jnanis, they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54].

When one gets the brahma-jnana, brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20], and identifies himself, aham brahmasmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannatma: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. They have nothing to do with this material world. Na socati na kahksati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu. Then, mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg 18.54]. After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas-the real bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kanistha, madhyama and uttama. Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikari, not to remain in the lowest stage, kanistha-adhikari.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach.

Prabhupada: How long you are here, in London?

Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years.

Prabhupada: So, you are family man?

Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife.

Prabhupada: You're married here.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Children?

Satish Kumar: One child.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti.

Prabhupada: That's nice. [everyone laughs] But another thing... [laughter] Rūpa Gosvami says, bhukti-mukti-pisaci yavat hrdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham atra [Cc Madhya 19.176]. Manifested, like that. That so long the pisaci... Pisaci, you know?

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: The pisaci of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmi's business, "I shall enjoy."

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as pisaci.

Satish Kumar: Really?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Ah, pisaci is witch.

Prabhupada: Bhukti-mukti-pisaci yavad hrdi vartate.

Satish Kumar: "As long as...?"

Prabhupada: "So long these two pisacis are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"

Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti, and then you can...

Prabhupada: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained:

Prabhupada: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:

So a bhakta is already brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamahgala Thakura says,

And dharmartha-kama-samaya-pratiksaḥ. Dharmartha-kama, this is karmi's position. And moksa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmartha-kama, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kama, moksa , so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitanjali sevate 'sman dharmartha-kama-samaya-pratiksaḥ.

Devotee: Prasadam.

Prabhupada: Prasade sarva-duḥkhanam hanir asyopajayate [Bg 2.65].

[guests and devotees talk in background as prasadam is served]

Satish Kumar:

[aside:] Please...

But calling krsnarpanam, and calling mukti with bhukti pisaci is a rather strong expression. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, they can.

Prabhupada: [laughs]

Satish Kumar: The attachment is bhukti, materialistic attachment, and mukti...

[break] I was very impressed with the account, how...

Prabhupada: This will be New Gokula.

Satish Kumar: New Gokula. Hmm, hmm, it's very good.

Prabhupada: They've got New Vrindavan, New Navadvipa, New Jagannatha Puri, New Dvaraka...

Pradyumna: New Gaya...

Prabhupada: ...New Gaya, and this is the New Gokula.

[pause]

You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politician of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some..., always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan.

So, so far this Movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Krsna consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a Movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.

Satish Kumar: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.

Prabhupada: Therefore they're mūḍhas.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15]. So India cannot be happy being guided by the duskrtino mūḍhaḥ naradhamaḥ. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi, that "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this Movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But then what Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request?

Prabhupada: No.

Satish Kumar: No. Hmm.

Prabhupada: But it did not go to his hand; of the hands of the secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." That's all. [laughs]

Satish Kumar: Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Satish Kumar: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved?

Prabhupada: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal-to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal, that "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food and be satisfied there."

That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and be engaged in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. I agree.

Prabhupada: Yes. The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principle-from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that.

Devotee: [to guests:] Some ksira?

Satish Kumar: Oh!

Prabhupada: That's all. Don't give more.

[pause]

They actually, by destroying the Manchester mill owners, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmedabad mill owners. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one eight per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair.

Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth-one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. Now same thing for thirty rupees.

Prabhupada: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmedabad capitalists. That's all.

Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes.

Prabhupada: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire.

Satish Kumar: [laughs] Yes. Very true.

Prabhupada: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness.

Satish Kumar: Quite true. And therefore nothing is working.

Prabhupada: No.

[pause]

Satish Kumar: And not going by car, as you said. [laughter]

Prabhupada: And you are not plucking your hairs?

Satish Kumar: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair.

Devotee: The whole head, you pull your hair?

Satish Kumar: Whole head, yes. It's extreme form of a...

Devotee: Austerity.

Satish Kumar: Ah?

Devotee: It's an austerity.

Satish Kumar: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and...

Prabhupada: So when you joined this Sarvodaya movement? At Benares?

Satish Kumar: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and...

Prabhupada: He's still living?

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: What is his philosophy?

Satish Kumar: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes in the village, and not going to a city. This is his principle, on the economic scale. And on the spiritual and religious, he's a brahma-vidya. He's seeking brahma-vidya. And he has, in Paunar, Brahma-vidya Mandir.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Satish Kumar: So he is... He is a follower of Sahkaracarya.

Prabhupada: Mukti, bhukti.

Satish Kumar: Ah?

Prabhupada: Mukti.

Satish Kumar: Mukti, yes.

Prabhupada: Pisaci.

Satish Kumar: Hmm? [laughter]

Prabhupada: [laughs] Bhukti-mukti-pisaci.

Satish Kumar: Yes.

Prabhupada: [indistinct] of men. Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms," bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Krsna says, "Give up all these 'ism.' Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.

Satish Kumar: Yes. [Hindi]

Prabhupada: Accha.

Satish Kumar: [Hindi]

Prabhupada: [Hindi] [end]