Room Conversation with Mr. Tran-Van-Kha – June 15, 1974, Paris

Prabhupada: In old age he'll be crippled like that. Then he said that "I am also going to be like that? No. What is the value?" Then he began meditation, how to stop old age. Then he gradually became very great, saintly person and studied Veda, karma. And by bad karma, one becomes subjected with material tribulation, and the most of the bad karma, he thought, was killing of animals, so he wanted to stop this. That is Buddha's..., "Stop animal killing." Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam.

Yogesvara: He's visnu-tattva?

Prabhupada: No, he's not visnu-tattva. He's jiva-tattva.

Yogesvara: Saktyavesavatara.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: Did you say three? One or three?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee: When you offer something... You once said in Delhi, "Either one or three."

Prabhupada: That is neck bead. No. Yes. Yes, not... Yes, yes. Arati. Arati.

Devotee: Yes, Srutakirti had offered my son two cookies.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Devotee: And I think you said, "Either one or three."

Prabhupada: No, no. I said...

Devotee: Two or four?

Prabhupada: Two or four.

Devotee: Is there some reason behind this?

Prabhupada: Yes. Three is offered to the enemy. If I offer something, three, that means "You are my enemy."

Devotee: So how many sticks of incense? Two?

Prabhupada: There is no such...

Yogesvara: Now, one thing is that we accept Buddha as incarnation of Krsna on reference from Vedas, but Buddha denied the value of the Vedas.

Prabhupada: That is... When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualification. Sada... Nindasi. Nindasi yajna-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended-some of the sacrifices or all of them... So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating; just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brahmana, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, "Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas." Just like these rascals, Christian: "Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse." Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish, therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. Just see their brain.

Yogesvara: When you were here last year, there was a meeting at the Indian Tourist Bureau, a press meeting, and there was a man who came to meet you at that time who is president of the court of Paris. And he was supposed to be a Buddhist. Do you remember this gentleman? He said to you that "Meat-eating... We must eat meat in the West. Maybe in India, because of the climate, you can get away with that."

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom, another rascaldom. He's a first-class rascal. That was the support by Vivekananda. He was eating everything. All the Ramakrishna Mission, they say like that, "Oh, without meat-eating, without drinking, you cannot stay." All rascals. Therefore, the conclusion is, all rascal, the religious, social, all rascal. If they want to be saved from their rascal position, this is the only, Krsna consciousness. If they don't want to be saved, if they want to go to hell, who can check? Atma-ha. Atma-ha means "self-suicide." Suicide, yes. If you cut your throat yourself, who can save you? So they are all these like that, all, all these Buddhists, Christian. We may not speak very strongly; they will be our enemies.

Bhagavan: There's other guests here.

Prabhupada: Shortly. But this is the position. They're all rascals. But we don't hate anyone. We want to raise them. Actually, they're all rascals. Do you accept this philosophy?

Yogesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...that they are all rascals?

[greeting guests:] Hare Krsna. Let them come forward. Jaya.

Bhagavan: Please come. Sit. Please come, sit. [break]

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Yogesvara: This gentleman is Mr. Tran-Van-Kha, the president of...

Prthu-putra: Mrs. Basti here, she is the president of the Society of Buddhists in France. And...

Guest (1): Thomas Dhu.

Prabhupada: Sit down.

Prthu-putra: He's the president, [indistinct] honor of honors. Mr. Tran-Van-Kha was ambassador from Vietnam...

Prabhupada: Vietnam.

Prthu-putra: ...in America twenty years ago, and he's now president of the Society of Buddhists in France.

Prabhupada: If... Vietnam fight is stopped? No?

Yogesvara: Vietnam War? Well, they say.

Prabhupada: So Vietnam, they profess Buddhist religion?

[Prthu-putra translates into French throughout]

Guest (1): [French]

Prthu-putra: Eighty percent.

Prabhupada: So the Buddhist religion, so far we know, they are nonviolent.

Guest (1): [French]

Prthu-putra: And tolerance. This gentleman added tolerance.

Prabhupada: Tolerance. If one is nonviolent, he must learn tolerance. We pray Lord Buddha: nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam: "My Lord, you, for the time being, you are decrying the Vedic authority." Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam means Vedic rituals. Sruti means Vedas. It is learned by hearing. Why he decried the Vedic rituals? Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam: "You are so much compassionate by seeing animals sacrificed," animal killing. Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. Ghatam means killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing, sinful life. Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare: "My Lord, you have appeared now as Lord Buddha. I offer my respectful obeisances unto you." Our... I think picture is there, Lord Buddha's picture.

Yogesvara: In the Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: No, no. Not Bhagavad-gita.

Dhananjaya: The Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam, back side, the dasa-vidha. Dasa-vidha you do not see?

Prthu-putra: [explains in French the picture in Second Canto]

Prabhupada: He was Hindu in the beginning. [aside:] Come on. He was prince, then he became renounced and he was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started his system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately, the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers "No meat-eating," so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex; another, meat-eating; another, intoxication; and another, gambling. So at least the brahmanas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society, they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, yad yad acarati sresthas. Acarati.

Yogesvara: What is second line?

Prabhupada: Sa yat pramanam kurute. In the 'yad' you did not find?

Yogesvara: Y-a-d?

Prabhupada: Yes, y-a-d. Yad yad.

Pusta Krsna: Yad yad acarati sresthas.

Prabhupada: Mm.

Translation: "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

[Prthu-putra translates verse] [pause]

Yogesvara: When we were at your meeting a few weeks ago, there was..., we felt very encouraged because there was very nice interest in how it was that these young Western boys and girls had been able to take to this form of Krsna consciousness. [French, asks for questions]

Lady (1): [French]

Yogesvara: Last night, at the conference hall, this lady heard your lecture about how the soul reincarnates in different kinds of bodies. So she wants to know how is this possible, because in the West, our understanding is that the animal forms do not possess a soul.

Prabhupada: How does..., she can prove that she does not..., it does not possess a soul?

Prthu-putra: [explaining question] She just doesn't understand. She does not say that. She does not understand.

Prabhupada: No. She admits man has got soul, and animal has not soul.

Yogesvara: See, what she says, this is the traditional Western idea.

Prabhupada: But that idea is wrong.

Lady (1): [French]

Yogesvara: She was hoping to receive a more detailed explanation of the process.

Prabhupada: First of all, let us see what are the symptoms of having soul. [to lady:] Sit... You can come here. Let her come.

Yogesvara: Ask the lady to have a better seat.

Prabhupada: Come here.

Prthu-putra: See, there she has a seat.

Prabhupada: Never mind, you can sit down here. Bring that chair.

Devotee: Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Yogesvara: Sylvie has a question.

Lady (2): I want to ask you, what does it [indistinct] when you..., when there's talk of this religion of Krsna? Is it before Christ, or more?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Yogesvara: This, the question of religion, did it come before Christ or before Buddha?

Prabhupada: Yes, 5,000 years ago.

Lady (2): Yes, before.

Prabhupada: Five thousand years.

Prthu-putra: [translates into French]

Lady (2): Five thousand years, eh?

Prabhupada: This is now. Before that, this was spoken some millions of years ago to the sun-god. [aside:] You find out that verse, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1].

Yogesvara: 4.1.

Pusta Krsna: Fourth Chapter, first verse.

[French translation]

Prabhupada: So, if you take the calculation of Manu, Manu lives for 72,000 of yugas. One yuga is 4,300,000 of years; 4,300,000 years, one yuga. Multiply by 72. So that is the age of Manu. So at least so many years before, Bhagavad-gita was spoken to Manu's father, Sūrya. Sūrya, the sun-god. Sun-god. So how many millions?

Pusta Krsna: About 120 million years ago. [devotees figure out calculation]

Yogesvara: About 300 million years ago.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this philosophy was spoken 300 millions of years ago. And then again, He spoke 5,000 years ago. This is the history of Bhagavad-gita. Now, your question. You say that animal has no soul, is it not? That a man has soul, you admit?

Lady (1): [French]

Yogesvara: Generally in the West it is admitted that the man possesses a soul and not the animals.

Prabhupada: So why this difference? What difference you find in animal from the man?

Lady (1): [French discussion among guests on this point]

Yogesvara: She says it is only the body that is different.

Prabhupada: Only body difference? The mans, they has got body difference. The..., the Africans, they have got different body. And the [indistinct] Europeans have different body. There are so many men. The aborigines have got different body. So there so many men, human also.

Yogesvara: So then that is not the real difference?

Prabhupada: So what is the real difference, that I want to explain.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: So what is her reply? Suppose a child has a different body...

Lady (3): [French]

Yogesvara: This young lady suggests that the animals do have a soul, and that they also pass from body to body, and perhaps ultimately can come to the human form.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the explanation. You are right.

Guest (2): [French]

Prthu-putra: He says the evolution was already before, because in the vegetables is already this process of evolution of the soul.

Prabhupada: Every living entity has soul. The body is just like the dress. Just like you are sitting here under different dresses, but that does not mean we are different. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita: vasamsi jirnani. [aside:] Find out this, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg 2.22].

Yogesvara: Second Chapter.

Prabhupada: You can take it. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya, navani grhnati jata 'parani.

[French translation] "As a person put on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."

Prabhupada: This is the point. Just like I've already changed. I was a child, so small. Where is that body? That is no longer existing. But still I remember that I had the body. So I changed that body so many times. Similarly, when this body will be useless, I change another body. This is conclusion. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara.

Pusta Krsna: 2.13

[French translation] "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupada: So, not only the animal. The trees, the plants, the insects, the birds, the bees, the aquatic animal, fish-everyone has got soul. So anything which has got life symptom, it is due to soul, and so long the soul is there, the change of body takes place. A child born, if it is dead, the change of body does not take place. You cannot understand?

Lady (2): No.

Prabhupada: You have got now a different body, but you had a body like a child. So you cannot understand this? How is that? Even a child can understand. You were also sometimes a body like this young girl. You do not believe that?

Lady (2): [French]

Yogesvara: She says she can recollect.

Prabhupada: No, but who recollects? The soul. The body is changed. The body is changed, but the soul is the same, and therefore she can recollect.

Lady (3): [French]

Yogesvara: She says there is an example of the worm that turns into a butterfly. It changes body.

Prabhupada: Yes, she is right.

Lady (2): [French]

Yogesvara: [French] Do you have any questions?

Guest (3): [French]

Yogesvara: He says there is an example that a flower grows, and when it dies it gives its perfume to God.

Prabhupada: Yes, very good idea. Therefore, everyone can dedicate his energy to God. And that is called bhakti.

Guest (4): [French]

Yogesvara: Is the sun to be considered a representation of God?

Prabhupada: Yes, every..., everyone is representation of God. Sun is more powerful representation. You are also representation of God. God is also a living being. That is said in the dictionary, Oxford Dictionary. God means, "supreme being." So we are all beings, and God is the Supreme Being. We are limited by our power; God is unlimited by His power.

Lady (3): [French]

Yogesvara: When we say "Krsna," are we speaking about God or an incarnation of God? How do we define it?

Prabhupada: No, God Himself.

Lady (4): [French]

Yogesvara: Then what is the meaning of the word atma?

Prabhupada: Atma means also God. Atma means this body. Atma means this mind. Atma means the soul. And atma means also God. Atma means the active principle which is working. Just like in you the atma is there, therefore your body is moving. Similarly, the active principle of the whole cosmic manifestation is God.

Guest (2): [French]

Yogesvara: What is the meaning of the different cakras?

Prabhupada: Different?

Yogesvara: Cakra, cakras.

Prabhupada: Cakra?

Yogesvara: Cakras.

Prabhupada: That is yogic process. Those who are trying to find out the Supreme from the body, for them the different cakras mean the active principle, how He is working in different places. From the abdomen to the heart, then here, then here, then here, sat-cakra, six cakras. That is yogi system.

Guest (1): [French]

Yogesvara: Do we have a meaning..., do we have a definition for the third eye?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Yogesvara: The third eye.

Prabhupada: Third eye. The future. Future.

Yogesvara: Future?

Prabhupada: Past, present and future.

Pusta Krsna: There is a philosophy, Srila Prabhupada, they say that you meditate on some third eye, and this opens up into the..., some spiritual realization, a mystical realization. It is very popular.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Between the two eyebrows, that is said, explained in the Bhagavad-gita, bhruvor madhye..., ante kale ca mam... [aside:] That's Eight Chapter, I think, bhruvor madhye. Eighth Chapter? Hmm. Is it the Eighth Chapter?

Yogesvara: That is the Eighth Chapter, text 21, 22.

Prabhupada: Ten. Read.

[French translation] "One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and in full devotion engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: This is bhruvor madhye.

Guest (3): [French]

Yogesvara: He says: today, is it wise to practice this kind of meditation?

Prabhupada: Useless. [laughs] They cannot. It takes very, very long time to get perfection. Valmiki Muni got perfection in 60,000 years. Open Sixth Chapter. [aside:] Read this, arjuna uvaca.

[French translation] "Arjuna said, O Madhusūdana, the system of yoga which you have summarized appears impractical and unendurable to me, for the mind is restless and unsteady."

Prabhupada: Yoga, this yoga system means controlling the mind. But 5,000 years ago a person like Arjuna, who had his friend Krsna, he is saying that it is not possible for him. And at the present moment people are so degraded-not in the position of Arjuna-how they can get success? He is not ordinary man. Such a great warrior belonged to the royal family, and so qualified that he could talk with Krsna personally, he says that it is not possible. So do you think that you are become more than Arjuna, that you can get success? [aside:] Read this second verse, cancalam hi manaḥ krsna pramathi balavad drḍham.

[French translation] "For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krsna, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind."

Prabhupada: So Arjuna is presenting his inability, and what we are?

Guest (3): [French]

Yogesvara: He says in history there was the mystery of the sphinxes of Egypt. Do these sphinxes carry any significance?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Prthu-putra: Is the pyramid and the sphinx in Egypt civilization are any mystic significance?

Yogesvara: It's a great relevance for the Egyptian civilization.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is just like samadhi. Samadhi, when you become samadhi, then if you're, I mean to say, put within the earth, you do not die.

Pusta Krsna: Even if you are put in the earth, you do not die.

Prabhupada: This is called kumbhaka-yoga.

Guest (3): Kumbha?

Prabhupada: Kumbhaka. So this is practiced by the frogs also. So if you get success, you get success like a frog.

Lady (2): [French]

Yogesvara: Shall I tell them that story about the frog?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: [French, relates story from papers]

Prabhupada: That means the frog was buried at least for 10,000 years. Then you read the last paragraph of the yoga system: yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana.

[French translation] "And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all."

Prabhupada: We are teaching our students to become the topmost yogi, simply by thinking of Krsna 24 hours.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: You chant Hare Krishna, always remember Krsna and you become topmost yogi.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: Other processes are very difficult and to attain success takes long, long time.

Yogesvara: [French]

Lady (2): [French]

Prthu Putra: [French, telling everyone prasadam is ready]

[break, no discussion for minutes]

Prthu Putra: ..... one of the cakras?

Prabhupada: I do not know, the medical man may know but cakra you can find out anyone. ..[break].. She want to ask any question?

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says, "most of all, we simply wish to thank you, for your message." So he just wants to..

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says that ah...

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says, "A little while ago you said that by practising meditation in this form that was described to Arjuna it will take 60,000 years." And he has a spiritual master who tells him that he can achieve perfection that way in this lifetime. So he says, "if I am wrong please correct me."

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: And what is that success?

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: To realize God.

Prabhupada: Everyone says, "I have realised God".

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: So, realize God, then describe what is God.

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says that he has seen God.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says, "God is light."

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says that in the middle of this light there is a form.

Prabhupada: Yes, so we are worshipping that form, Krsna.

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Yogesvara: He says that form was of more bright than a thousand suns.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is described in the Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anḍa-koti [Bs 5.40]. By the expansion of that rays of God's body, the brahma-jyoti and within that brahma-jyoti there are millions of universes.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: On account of, the rays of the body of God being spread there are millions and trillions of universes.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: And in each universe there are millions and trillions of planets.

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: This is the understanding of the light.

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Prabhupada: That, that light is unlimited.

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French] [agrees]

Prabhupada: So this descriptions are there.

Yogesvara: [French]

Guest: [French]

Prabhupada: Hm? And here is also, brahmano ham pratistha.

Prthu Putra: [Aside] that's verse.. 14th chapter.