Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman – June 11, 1974, Paris

Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition

Yogesvara: Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris.

Prabhupada: Law House means legislative assembly? No.

Yogesvara: It is part of the National Assembly?

M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National... Yes.

Prabhupada: Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly."

[Yogesvara and Prthu-putra translate Prabhupada's comments into French throughout]

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: [translating] Yes, like that.

Prabhupada: But they're not necessarily lawyers.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prabhupada: We are also lawyer-not in the material sense-but we know what is the law of God.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He asks what are our activities in France.

Prabhupada: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks what are we doing for that.

Nitai: What ways are we doing that?

Prthu-putra: In which way, what ways, how?

Prabhupada: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: This gentleman asks if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee.

Prabhupada: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks if we have temple in French..., in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it?

Prabhupada: Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is... You show Bhagavad-gita. [devotees show books] And all other books also show him.

Prthu-putra: He already know this.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English.

Prabhupada: Here is French, French language.

Bhagavan: [explains in French about number of books distributed]

M. Mesman: [French]

Bhagavan: We have practical political philosophy.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He asks what are our political principles in Krsna consciousness. Do we have a program?

Prabhupada: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated...

[aside:] Find out, samo damas titiksa.

Yogesvara: [to Prthu-putra] You want to translate?

Prthu-putra: [translates]

Prabhupada: So there must be four divisions of the society: the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses...

[aside:] Hmm. Read. Yes.

Prabhupada: This is definition of the first-class man.

Yogesvara: [aside:] Would you like to translate?

Prthu-putra: [translates verse]

Prabhupada: With all these qualification, one can become first-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class...

Bhagavan: [correcting translator] "These people should be..." Prabhupada said "these people."

Prthu-putra: [corrects translation]

Prabhupada: A class of men, first-class men...

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He says we say, "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation.

Prabhupada: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is..., Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first-class men to lead the human society. Then next class... The head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated...

Yogesvara: Nitai?

Prabhupada: Teja... What is that?

Nitai: It's, uh...

Prabhupada: Teja. No?

Nitai: Sauryam...

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas." [Prthu-putra translates]

Prabhupada: Next class, the vaisyas. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44].

"Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of the work for the vaisyas, and for the sūdras there is labor and service to others." [Prthu-putra translates]

Prabhupada: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all sūdras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He says this concept is against the...

Yogesvara: Traditional Western capitalism.

Prthu-putra: The traditional Western capitalists.

Yogesvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?

Prabhupada: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the..., as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gita and...

Prabhupada: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages.

M. Mesman: English?

Prabhupada: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit.

Prabhupada: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France.

Bhagavan: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple.

Prabhupada: Dedicated devotees, hundred.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: If one is a full-time disciple...

Prabhupada: He's dedicated disciple.

Yogesvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here?

Prabhupada: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere...

Yogesvara: Explain there's traveling parties.

Bhagavan: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. [Prthu-putra translates]

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks if we have a school in France.

Prabhupada: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: This school is for all ages, or just for children?

Prabhupada: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are... Other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books.

Yogesvara: "Did you write all these books?"

Prabhupada: That you can say. What can I...?

Yogesvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?"

Bhagavan: Prabhupada has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport.

Prabhupada: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement?

Prabhupada: That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and...

Yogesvara: Last year, at Hotel de Ville.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville.

Prabhupada: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. [someone enters with a plate of prasadam]

Bhagavan: This you can explain prasadam, prasadam.

Prthu-putra: [explains about prasadam]

Prabhupada: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar... And? What else?

Prthu-putra: Fruit, vegetables.

Bhagavan: Fruits.

Prabhupada: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take.

Yogesvara: Maybe you can also explain that this...

Prabhupada: What is this preparation, explain. You explain.

Yogesvara: This is burfi.

M. Mesman: C'est bon.

Bhagavan: This is cake, cookie.

Prabhupada: No, not cookie. It is burfi, like... What is this made of?

Bhagavan: This is...

Jyotirmayee: This is sandesa.

Prabhupada: Oh, sandesa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandesa, you give him one more. [M. Mesman laughs] So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh-everything, whatever he likes-because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it.

So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindavan, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy.

M. Mesman: [French]

Prthu-putra: He says there is a French...

Yogesvara: Saying.

Prthu-putra: A French saying that says, "We don't have to kill the cow's milk."

Yogesvara: "The cow who gives milk."

Prthu-putra: The cow who gives milk.

Yogesvara: One should not kill... That's a French saying.

Prabhupada: Ah!

Yogesvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow?

Yogesvara: It's a proverb.

Prthu-putra: Proverb.

Yogesvara: Saying.

Prabhupada: Problem?

Yogesvara: Proverb.

Prabhupada: So put into action this proverb. So that is... You are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives...? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead... [break] ...free of charges.

M. Mesman: [French]

Yogesvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him.

Prabhupada: So kindly do this service. Krsna will bless you.

M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Prabhupada: ...giving to the vultures. Let the flesh-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. [laughs]

Yogesvara: It would ruin the economy.

Prabhupada: Economy? What is that economy?

Yogesvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good...

Prabhupada: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, you take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there?

Pusta Krsna: Also, the other day, Srila Prabhupada, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this.

Prabhupada: Yes. We recommend the meat-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't... You eat it-after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. [laughter] The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures.

Yogesvara: Sakuni.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, raksasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men.

Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg 18.44]. Who is..., who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhagavata, sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class; less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle.

The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasa brahmacaryena yamena niyamena... [SB 6.1.13]. The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena va. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-samyama, controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly... So the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life.

Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the... In your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for... This is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud?

Yogesvara: Sigmund Freud.

Prabhupada: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing.

Yogesvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying, "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing.

Prabhupada: He's ad... She's advanced. [laughter] She's more advanced. That's nice. [laughs] This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ.

"Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna, the deliverer from evils."

Prabhupada: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. [makes barking sound:] "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" [laughter] That's all. Is it not?

Pusta Krsna: It's true.

Prabhupada: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" Samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by... That is stated here, sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ. The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karna..., karna-pathet, upeta...?

Nitai: Upeto.

Prabhupada: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Krsna, he's animal.

Nitai: Jatu nama gadagrajaḥ.

Prabhupada: Jatu. What is...? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport?

Nitai: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service..."

Prabhupada: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street.

Bhagavan: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver.

Prabhupada: Where?

Bhagavan: In the United States.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Pusta Krsna: And that is supposed to be the brahmana class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people.

Prabhupada: No, no. They are not brahmanas. Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brahmanas. Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money, that "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad-gita." We never say so. So those..., these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brahmana's business. Brahmana will never ask. Brahmana is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brahmana is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brahmana's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brahmana's business.

Bhagavan: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bhagavan: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their...

Prabhupada: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than sūdras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise... It is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're... Now they are give man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception... At least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that?

Bhagavan: Yes.

Prabhupada: So what is their standard?

Yogesvara: [referring to guest] Did he say anything before he left?

Jyotirmayee: Yeah, he said that he was in the..., he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow-killing. So he said...

Prabhupada: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it."

Pusta Krsna: Prabhupada, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents?

Prabhupada: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong?

Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef.

Prabhupada: No, fast, fast... Fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society.

Yogesvara: If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: ...there'll be even more cows.

Prabhupada: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that "Don't..." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the... How long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. [laughter] Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Krsna. Because we are Krsna conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Krsna, go-raksya. That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Krsna has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows... And you see, they're... Our cows in New Vrindavan, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindavan, they're so jolly, as soon as Kirtanananda Maharaja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning.

Bhagavan: He gave a proverb.

Prabhupada: Rather, he supported.

Bhagavan: Yes.

Prabhupada: So use this. This is one of the business. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, "Dung! dung!" and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me?

Bhagavan: Yeah, French guillotine.

Prabhupada: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritamrta. Where is Nitai?

Bhagavan: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them.

Prabhupada: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyadha story?

Nitai: The...?

Prabhupada: Vyadha. The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahaprabhu?

Nitai: Which...?

Prabhupada: This twenty-fourth chapter, Madhya-lila.

Nitai: No, I don't think it's typed yet.

Prabhupada: What you have typed? Bring. That is Narada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there.

Yogesvara: Oh, Mrgari, the hunter.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: Mrgari.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you... Mam... This meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is mamsa. Mam. Mam means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of mam sa. Mam sa khadati iti mamsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kali, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal, that "You are giving your life before Goddess Kali. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kali, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra. While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra. The priest will say in the ear that "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kali. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra.

Yogesvara: Mam sa.

Prabhupada: Mam sa. Mam sa khadati iti mamsa.

Nitai: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it... She'll type it today or tomorrow.

Prabhupada: There these things are discussed.

Yogesvara: The story of Mrgari and...?

Prabhupada: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows.

Bhagavan: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects...

Prabhupada: How they'll understand, all dull-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tavac ca sobhate mūrkho yavat kincin na bhasate. A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. [laughter]

Bhagavan: That's intelligent.

Jyotirmayee: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress-she's known all over the world-she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try.

Prabhupada: This mayor, mayor...? This mayor?

Yogesvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her.

Bhagavan: What about him? [laughter]

Yogesvara: He is more interested in...

Prabhupada: What did he say about himself?

Jyotirmayee: It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow-killing?" So he said, "Oh... But there is this actress." Just give it..., gave it to someone else to do.

Prabhupada: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Krsna. And Krsna orders, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg 18.44]. So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee, you can start so many restaurants. That I have already... I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Krsna conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Krsna. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9], and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program.

Yogesvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasadam and sell it in the restaurant.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society.

Prabhupada: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandesa there. We can make rasagulla. We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachoris, sihgara, puri, halava and so many other things, juri, and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the... That every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more.

Yogesvara: Same.

Prabhupada: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time... That's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same.

Pusta Krsna: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosas. [laughter]

Prabhupada: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow.

Bhagavan: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you.

Prabhupada: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says, "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhagavata. If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Krsna's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called...?

Bhagavan: A bowl?

Prabhupada: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is... What do you call, where you keep water?

Bhagavan: Pot.

Prabhupada: Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin... Rice was nothing. Rice... In our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna. So by giving one-anna-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it.

Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger... One saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the asrama, because the asrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the asrama, and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the asrama. He'll say, amara ajni hana isko bolo naya[?]: "They are my men; don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained-I think most of you have seen-one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridasa Thakura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, isvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam hrd-dese... [Bg 18.61]. Krsna is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Krsna can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk.

These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Krsna consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2]. The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is atma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-maninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know.

Pusta Krsna: You said, Prabhupada, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Pusta Krsna: Everything is there.

Prabhupada: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Krsna conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got grhasthas, vanaprasthas, brahmacari, sannyasi. We have no such objection.

Yogesvara: I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people-the YMCA, the church groups-so many different social-working groups trying to make young people become more..., not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said, "Oh, he's the one, there."

Prabhupada: Is there any other meeting?

Jyotirmayee: Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist.

Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then.

Pusta Krsna: Jaya. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hari-haribol. [devotees pay obeisances]

Pusta Krsna: Should I distribute this to the devotees?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes.

Prabhupada: Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. [end]