Room Conversation with Hari Prasad Badruka – October 27, 1977, Vṛndāvana

Kirtana: this is the medicine, panacea, for material disease

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Pancadraviḍa: Shall we continue reading, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pancadraviḍa: This is the chapter "Description of the Rasa Dance." [break]

Prabhupada: It will be bhavausadhi. So there is no other... I shall ask, whenever I require it, fruit juice. That is my food, and this kirtana is my medicine. And parikrama. Settle up this.

Satadhanya: Fruit juice, kirtana and parikrama.

Prabhupada: Believe in Krsna. Hmm. I am hearing kirtana how very nice here. It is stated in the sastra, nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad bhavausadhac chrotra... [SB 10.1.4]. This is the medicine, panacea, for material disease. So kindly let me hear kirtana as far as possible, long as I live.

Satadhanya: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Eh? That is all right?

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada. Yes, Prabhupada. [kirtana] [break]

Prabhupada: I'm thirsty. Fruit juice?

Satadhanya: Would you like some fruit juice now, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Hari Prasad: Everything is all right.

Prabhupada: It is improving?

Hari Prasad: Yes, it is. [break]

Pancadraviḍa: We have an arrangement now that Spanish BBT is sending funds every month to Hyderabad temple to finish the construction, and then, to pay back the loan that you gave, we're also sending in contributions to pay back that loan.

Prabhupada: So, [laughs] what do I need? The money is coming from outside. Never mind.

Hari Prasad: There is no lack of money, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So, in the temple everything is going on?

Hari Prasad: Yes, it's going on.

Prabhupada: People are coming?

Hari Prasad: Yes, many people are coming. And it has become very...

Prabhupada: Popular.

Hari Prasad: It is already popular.

Prabhupada: No, seva-pūja will...

Hari Prasad: Everybody is concerned about your health.

Prabhupada: And seva-pūja is [indistinct]?

Tamala Krsna: Seva-pūja is very nice?

Hari Prasad: Yes, everything is very, very much regulated now.

Prabhupada: Execute. Sri-vigraharadhana-nitya-nana-srngara-tan-mandira-marjanadau. Here it was vacant, my lot. Now, by Krsna's grace, so many people are coming. Prasadam distribution is going there?

Tamala Krsna: At the farm?

Hari Prasad: No, Prabhupada. So far, they haven't started. When you were there for a few weeks, one or two weeks they had done it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hari Prasad: When you were there at Hyderabad, at the farm, for one or two weeks the prasadam distribution was there.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Why? Why they are not distributing now?

Hari Prasad: They have stopped it.

Tamala Krsna: Probably they're not getting the funds from the Food Relief program. Just now the temples have started to send in money for Food Relief, so Jayapataka must be sending them money.

Hari Prasad: I do not know. Till I left, three days back, there was no distribution of prasadam.

Tamala Krsna: In the past there hasn't been on some days?

Hari Prasad: When Prabhupada was there, continuously they had after you left for a week or two.

Tamala Krsna: Mahamsa reported that there was prasadam distribution.

Hari Prasad: For a week or two. No, once in a while they were doing it.

Tamala Krsna: Mahamsa reports that on the weekends they do it. He reported...

Devotee: Probably.

Hari Prasad: But not daily.

Tamala Krsna: No, no, not daily. He said that on the weekends he does. In Mayapur they do on the weekends.

Bhavananda: We do every day. But on the weekends we serve khicuri, and during the week we serve...

Hari Prasad: But prasadam distribution had a real good effect in that time when it was started. Many people had started coming then. [break]

Prabhupada: ...see that prasadam distribution goes on.

Hari Prasad: The weather at Hyderabad is now very pleasant.

Prabhupada: Now.

Hari Prasad: Yes. And it will remain for another two months.

Prabhupada: Very pleasant.

Hari Prasad: Now it will, after this sarat-pūrnima, just a pleasant, cool climate starts. And it's not moist or sultry there.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hari Prasad: It is not sultry. In the daytime also it is quite pleasant, not very warm.

Prabhupada: Oh. Vegetable growing?

Tamala Krsna: Vegetables are growing?

Hari Prasad: Yes, vegetables are...

Prabhupada: And rice, dal?

Hari Prasad: Paddy is good this year. They have grown. There was drought. For one month there had been no rains when it should have been, in September. Whole of September was dry. Otherwise entire twenty acres of paddy they had, and six acres which is fed from irrigation from tanks is very good. Paddy, maize also. [break]

Prabhupada: Things are improving.

Hari Prasad: Yes, they are. There is no worry as far as this management of the temple and farm is concerned.

Tamala Krsna: Mahamsa is doing nicely.

Hari Prasad: Both are very much dedicated and devoted.

Tamala Krsna: Tejiyas is doing nice?

Hari Prasad: Tejiyas, his movements are too many. That is a problem.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: He says Tejiyas moves around too much.

Hari Prasad: He's not fully fixed up to the farm. But as far as temple manage, very much regulated now, with..., after Sridhara Swami has come. It has been all perfectly streamlined.

Tamala Krsna: Sridhara Swami is doing nicely.

Hari Prasad: Yes, Prabhu.

Pancadraviḍa: The construction is going on nicely?

Hari Prasad: Yes, construction is... But except a very slow stage, but that is not fault of the... Their labor, availability, and all that. They come and they just now come. It is a usual practice for these small, small things. I think it should finish now in about a month's time. [break]

Tamala Krsna: ...thousand people at evening arati.

Hari Prasad: One thing, Prabhupada, this discourse and all is not, in the evenings, which should have been there. It was earlier, when...

Tamala Krsna: There's no discourse in the evening?

Bhavananda: When Acyutananda was there.

Hari Prasad: When Acyutananda was there he was attracting crowds and...

Tamala Krsna: Sridhara doesn't discourse?

Hari Prasad: But that type, just reading from Bhagavatam or Srimad-Bhagavata, doesn't...

Tamala Krsna: Acyutananda was giving good discourse.

Hari Prasad: Yes, he was every time, I think. When he was there, three, four hundred minimum crowd used to be there, and they used to take interest in question-answers. And it had become a lively, interesting...

Tamala Krsna: Good speaker has to be there.

Hari Prasad: Yes, good speaker, or... Or on this Caitanya philosophy daily, if some lectures are arranged and discourse is arranged. If you can permit, Prabhupada, there's Bhagavatam discourse in the daytime, and all of this who know Hindi fluently on Caitanya philosophy... Yesterday I saw this rasa-lila also. If suppose some rasa arrangement also is made.

Prabhupada: Who?

Tamala Krsna: He says that there should be good speaker in Hindi. But Acyutananda could not speak Hindi.

Hari Prasad: No, no. His was a different thing, whether Hindi or English. He was attracting very big crowd.

Tamala Krsna: It has to be good speaker.

Hari Prasad: His bhajanas and all that.

Tamala Krsna: There has to be something besides the arati, he says. There should be some lecture.

Hari Prasad: It has become more or less a pilgrim center. Anybody who comes to Hyderabad must visit.

Tamala Krsna: Really?

Hari Prasad: Yes, yes.

Tamala Krsna: It is the most popular temple in Hyderabad?

Hari Prasad: Yes, yes, definitely. After that Vehkatesvara, Birla temple and these two temples, anybody who comes, they visit.

Tamala Krsna: That temple is finished now? Birla's temple?

Hari Prasad: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: On the hill. But not as many people go... [break] ...successful temple, Srila Prabhupada. Two thousand people at the evening arati.

Hari Prasad: No, but they can come for this discourse or education on our philosophy and all that. If that starts, it would be a wonderful thing.

Tamala Krsna: That's a fact. Such a nice facility.

Hari Prasad: It would be a really wonderful thing then.

Pancadraviḍa: Lokanatha is...

Hari Prasad: People would love to... There, in the South India, people are interested in such type of philosophy. And they discuss, they argue, they get convinced or they convince you, and they don't feel offended.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I remember they like to discuss philosophy.

Pancadraviḍa: So many were coming for hearing Srila Prabhupada when he was there. Has Lokanatha Swami ever visited there?

Tamala Krsna: So you want him to stay there all the time?

Pancadraviḍa: No, to visit. See how he would do.

Tamala Krsna: But the thing is someone has to always be there. There has to always be programs.

Hari Prasad: Use of guesthouse also is made in the temple.

Tamala Krsna: How many rooms in the guesthouse?

Hari Prasad: I think four rooms.

Tamala Krsna: And people use it?

Hari Prasad: Yes. Sometimes people come stay.

Tamala Krsna: Members?

Hari Prasad: Yes, members.

Tamala Krsna: The rooms are nice?

Hari Prasad: They're all well built. As far as management of the temple, management side is perfect. Financial side sometimes causes worry.

Tamala Krsna: That's good. The management is good. That is very good. Usually that is always a problem.

Hari Prasad: No, management side of both the farm and the temple is good. It's really, I should say, remarkable achievement.

Pancadraviḍa: How about Mr. Pulla Reddy? Does he show interest? Does he come?

Hari Prasad: He's very much devoted, dedicated.

Pancadraviḍa: Maybe in the future he'd give the front land to the temple?

Hari Prasad: That is a...

Tamala Krsna: That's not interested, he's not... [break] [testing tape]

Prabhupada: Unless one is rogue, he would not like. [laughs] Krsna consciousness...

These are the sastra. Mano-rathena, those who are on the speculative platform, they cannot have their spiritual qualities. It is a... To the modern world it is a novel idea. It is not idea; this is original qualification. Part and parcel of God, it must be godlike. Gold is gold, may be a small particle. Similarly, living entity, part and parcel of God, so he is God undoubtedly-in a small particle. But that is sufficient for his perfection. They are being misled other ways, in the wrong side. So who will not like it, unless he's a rogue. Huh?

Gopala Krsna: Actually, they would even give us permanent residency, but they are scared that if they give it to us they will have to give it to everybody else. So therefore they're not giving it to us.

Prabhupada: Never mind. We have got big establishment and our these European and American young boys, they have been trained up. Otherwise, how could I manage? We have nothing to do with politics. Rather, we are giving social service. What we'll do, politics? It is not our business. There are so many people. So the government should give us chance to organize a society for the highest benefit of human being. And they can see from our books what is our idea. [break]

Gopala Krsna: ...printing books and exporting these books, and this way we're earning so much foreign exchange for the Indian economy. They liked it.

Prabhupada: Did you show them the invoice of what book already we have got?

Gopala Krsna: I told him the amount. I told him this year we have orders for Rs. twenty-five lakhs, and I said, "This is just the first year, and worldwide we print over eight crores. So this is just the beginning." So they liked it. And I also gave him the Hindi Bhagavatam like you had told me. And he turned out... This man who is handling our case is a Marwari, Mr. Pandey. So Marwaris are very pious; they're better than these others. So he liked the Hindi Bhagavatam very much. So I gave him the Hindi Bhagavatam and the English. [break]

Prabhupada: You are not to be gagged anymore?

Gopala Krsna: No.

Tamala Krsna: What, Srila Prabhupada?

Trivikrama: Not to be gagged. [laughter]

Gopala Krsna: That was our biggest problem. The president of India is presently in Hyderabad, so Mahamsa Maharaja was in Delhi, and we have a Life Member, Panilal Peddy in Hyderabad..., Polareddy, who knows the President very well. So I asked Mahamsa Maharaja to go with Polareddy to the President to see if he will come to Bombay to inaugurate our temple. Also, we are thinking of inviting some foreign ministers of countries like Nepal, which is a Hindu kingdom, and Mauritius. Because if these foreign ministers or some minister from these countries come, then it will lend more credit, and we'll get better coverage.

Prabhupada: You can show our South African success.

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Very grand opening is being planned for Bombay, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So many.

Gopala Krsna: If the President of India comes, then it will get front-page coverage.

Prabhupada: Who is the President?

Tamala Krsna: Who is the President now?

Gopala Krsna: N. Sanjeeva Reddy. He's more religious than the previous one.

Prabhupada: Sanjeeva, he was Home Minister? No.

Gopala Krsna: No, that was Brahmananda Reddy, who you met. We had a program at his house once.

Tamala Krsna: When was that?

Gopala Krsna: Two years ago.

Tamala Krsna: Where was it?

Gopala Krsna: In Delhi. And Prabhupada met him and asked him for the same thing, for visas.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. You've been asking this for quite a few years, Srila Prabhupada.

Gopala Krsna: I think if Indira Gandhi would have been in power we wouldn't have got it. But Janata Party is better for us. Because Indira... Brahmananda Reddy would always say he'll give it-I saw him several times-but do nothing. [break] ...Party's a little more positive in this direction.

Tamala Krsna: What will they give? Will they give you a letter officially or something?

Gopala Krsna: Yes. And plus they're writing a letter to the Indian embassies abroad that if any ISKCON devotee applies, he should be given a three-year visa straight.

Tamala Krsna: Phew!

Prabhupada: That will be nice.

Gopala Krsna: Yes. But I was just speaking to Tamala Krsna Maharaja that the GBCs, we should devise a policy so that this advantage is not misused. Because sometimes devotees just come over here, stay here for some time, do some nonsense and go back.

Tamala Krsna: Then they may take away this permission.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: We should be very careful to choose the right people to come.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Not just that anybody goes to an embassy and they immediately get three years and they come here, they move around India, then in two weeks or two months they leave and go back. Then the government will not like it.

Gopala Krsna: Yes. And if some Americans find out that ISKCON had this special status, then someone can also pose as an ISKCON devotee and get this visa.

Atreya Rsi: So we should require that they have GBC authorization and..., with the embassy.

Gopala Krsna: No. What we will do is, I think...

Prabhupada: Our GBC should select. Not...

Gopala Krsna: Or the GBC will communicate with India, and then India will send a letter.

Atreya Rsi: Some way...

Gopala Krsna: Yes. That's what I've been talking to Tamala. [break] ...for devotee engaging in any anti-national activity, then you can send him out. You had told me to say this earlier. So they felt reassured. [break]

Prabhupada: ...supplied?

Gopala Krsna: Yes. Tamala Krsna Maharaja has just given us four lakh rupees' loan. So I have given you a report, which he has. We have twenty-two books in print now in various...

Prabhupada: "A loan payable when able."

Tamala Krsna: What, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: A loan, payable when able.

Gopala Krsna: "When able." Prabhupada... [laughter]

Tamala Krsna: No, I wouldn't agree to that. I'm very strict...

Gopala Krsna: We are paying back the loan in time, with interest.

Tamala Krsna: No, he has to pay back...

Prabhupada: Atreya Rsi? This kind of loan is very good.

Atreya Rsi: Very good.

Tamala Krsna: It's Gopala's favorite loan.

Prabhupada: You take loan-"payable when able." [laughter]

Gopala Krsna: We paid back the first BBT loan-the second three lakhs-I paid it back three months ago. [laughs]

Prabhupada: That's all right. [laughs]

Gopala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we have twenty-two books in print.

Prabhupada: Oh!

Gopala Krsna: In either comp..., in various stages of production. Printing or composing or color... In the next two months, twenty-two books are coming out. By the end of December there will be twenty-two books given to you.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now you must have good godown. Otherwise books will be stolen.

Tamala Krsna: At the market.

Prabhupada: And market it will be sold at cheap rate. Then it will reduce its importance.

Tamala Krsna: That was happening in Calcutta many...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Gopala Krsna: I also got the loan for the godown. So in November we are starting construction of the BBT godown in Bombay.

Tamala Krsna: That four lakhs, two lakhs was for the godown and two lakhs for book printing.

Prabhupada: Money you'll get. There is no scarcity. Atreya Rsi will give you.

Gopala Krsna: Yes, he is very rich.

Prabhupada: Their country is very rich now.

Gopala Krsna: We used to send devotees to collect from these Middle East countries.

Prabhupada: Richest country now, Middle East. Everywhere we can make Vaikuntha by Krsna consciousness. Let people understand gradually.

Gopala Krsna: When they see your books, that's when they really appreciate our movement.

Prabhupada: Who has got such substantial books? Nowhere in the world.

Tamala Krsna: That's a fact, Srila Prabhupada.

Gopala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, I also spoke to the Chinese Embassy in Delhi yesterday. I said I'd like to go to China, and I wanted to find out what the possibilities were. So they said since I have Canadian citizenship, they said I should write to the Canadian High Com..., to the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa. I told them I'm from a publishing house that publishes books on ancient Indian culture. And I found out that they do not teach any Sanskrit in China, but they have Hindi and Urdu departments. Peking University has a department on Asian studies that teaches Hindi and Urdu.

Prabhupada: Let us introduce in Hindi.

Gopala Krsna: Our Hindi books. And actually, that man I spoke to on the phone, he spoke such fluent Hindi I had to ask him three times if he's Chinese or Indian. He was Chinese.

Prabhupada: No, in Calcutta we have got many Chinese. They speak fluently.

Gopala Krsna: This Chinese was from Peking, not Indian-born. And also, I was thinking we can say that Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is one of the biggest printers in the world, and we are seriously thinking of buying Chinese paper for printing. And we can buy Chinese paper if it's good, because I found out that Chinese paper is as good as Japanese paper, and it is cheaper.

Prabhupada: No, we can print there also, in China.

Gopala Krsna: That will be great, [laughing] if we print our books in China.

Prabhupada: Yes, they have got paper.

Gopala Krsna: So it's okay to try for a visa. [break]

Prabhupada: Sleeping means weakness.

Tamala Krsna: Sleeping means what?

Devotee: Weakness.

Tamala Krsna: Weakness.

Prabhupada: No, too much sleeping means weakness.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Bhavananda felt it was due to not sleeping at night that you were sleeping during the day. But you slept an awful lot today. But yet...

Prabhupada: No, today avoid.

Tamala Krsna: Today avoid. Yet you say that... When I asked you, "Are you feeling more vitality?" you said, "I think so." In what way are you feeling like that?

Prabhupada: So tonight don't give me.

Tamala Krsna: No, that's all right. But what about that question I asked, Srila Prabhupada? When I asked you, "Are you feeling more vitality?" you said, "I think so." In what sense are you feeling more vitality?

Prabhupada: Anyway, tonight don't try to give me.

Tamala Krsna: All right. Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Svarūpa Damodara: Does it give any appetite, Srila Prabhupada? Feeling of appetite?

Bhakti-caru: Srila Prabhupada, I cooked some boiled rice, boiled it for a long time, and some plantain. [Bengali]

Tamala Krsna: That's good for stopping diarrhea. I think you should take some, Srila Prabhupada. Instead of taking the medicine, take a little of this prasadam. Is that all right?

Prabhupada: All right, I'll try to take.

Tamala Krsna: One thing I've seen is that although you're passing stool more, it's not..., you're not passing out more, too much in sense of total amount of... Urine is less now. You're passing less urine. Stool is coming more, but urine is less.

Prabhupada: No, that is natural.

Tamala Krsna: That's natural.

Prabhupada: If you pass stool, there will be less urine.

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually, natural passing of stool is good instead of taking by enema. It is good sign, actually.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, it means that the bowel is moving.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. The organs are functioning properly.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Bhakti-caru: Misri?

Tamala Krsna: No. "Just see," I think Prabhupada said. The urine. It's finished now.

Svarūpa Damodara: [whispering] Quite a bit. Looks clear.

Tamala Krsna: There's more than that even.

Bhakti-caru: Can I see it in the light, please? [indistinct background discussion]

Tamala Krsna: One hundred cc's, Srila Prabhupada, and clear. So urine is normal amount. Try to take a little bit to eat tonight, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I'll try.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. And we won't give any medicine tonight. Tomorrow morning we're giving it. Okay?

Bhakti-caru: Even the swelling is down.

Tamala Krsna: Swelling is down.

Svarūpa Damodara: [aside:] You can tell about that newsletter, our conference, that is out.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Svarūpa Damodara brought an article from The Statesman about the news of the conference that was held here in Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Tamala Krsna: Statesman carried an article.

Prabhupada: Oh, really?

Svarūpa Damodara: It was printed in The Statesman.

Tamala Krsna: You want to hear it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. [to Svarūpa Damodara] You can't read it? Okay. Is there a flashlight? The heading, Srila Prabhupada, says, "The nonphysical view on the origin of species." Nonphysical view. "Materialists and men of faith continue to disagree over the origins of life. According to the first group, life is derived from atoms and molecules. The Russian scientist Dr. A. L. Oparin has been propagating this view since 1957." Fifty-seven or thirty-seven?

Svarūpa Damodara: Fifty-seven

Tamala Krsna: "But the challengers demand 'really solid examples of life arising from matter.' " The challengers don't accept it, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: It says here the challengers want some solid proof that life comes from matter. They're not willing to be duped simply by this man's statement. They want to see some real examples. "At a three-day international conference on 'Life Comes from Life' at Vrndavana last week at the Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed..." Srila Prabhupada, do you want it Bhaktivedanta Institute or Bhaktivedanta Swami?

Prabhupada: Oh, that's all right.

Tamala Krsna: It doesn't matter. "...Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the keynote. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO. Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Singh, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science, on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of the materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme by discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermodynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, Professor of Biochemistry of the All-India Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely on terms of chemical combinations. There was intricate features of life, ranging from the structures of molecules and living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics cannot account for these phenomena, and life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy. Mr. Cohen said that the proof of Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed, one into another, through many small changes or mutations. 'Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said. Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. 'In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supporting the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the presence of life proves that there must be further higher-order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science.' All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life, and they also corroborate the systematic description of the nature of life given in the Bhagavad-gita. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupada: Hmm. A good article.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. I think they gave a very full coverage.

Prabhupada: And very scientifically presented. And Bhaktivedanta Institute is advertised.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. Free of charge.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is a good article.

Svarūpa Damodara: Jaya. Prabhupada's mercy.

Prabhupada: Now it will give thought that life is a different thing. It cannot be produced by material molecules. It is not possible. And Bhagavad-gita they referred. And Bhaktivedanta Institute we have organized.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So it is good article.

Svarūpa Damodara: When we say Bhaktivedanta, they only know Srila Prabhupada, because there's only one bhakti-vedanti, so everybody knows.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. Srila Prabhupada? There was a nice letter from Haridasa in Bombay. Should I read it to you?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. [devotees chanting japa] He wrote to the secretary, Srila Prabhupada. Haridasa. There's a letter written. He says, "Dear Tamala Krsna Maharaja, please accept my most humble obeisances at your feet. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Gopala Krsna Prabhu has shown me the voucher where ISKCON Bombay owed to BBT India Rs. 70,000. When Srila Prabhupada said he wanted to stay with us, I got greatly encouraged and had a desire in my heart to pay back this money to the BBT for Srila Prabhupada."

Prabhupada: Hmm? I could not follow.

Tamala Krsna: What, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: I could not follow what he said.

Svarūpa Damodara: He said, "I couldn't follow."

Tamala Krsna: He says... He found out that the Bombay temple owed the BBT 70,000 rupees. So he says when he heard that you had decided that you wanted to live and not leave us, he got very encouraged and inspired. So he decided on his own that he wanted to pay back this money to the BBT for you. He says, "I have been encouraging all the preachers here at ISKCON Bombay to go out and collect the money to pay off this debt to the BBT. Srila Prabhupada has made all this arrangement very easily because of his encouragement to us. Even devotees who have engagements where they are not likely to make a Life Member are making Life Members very easily and are collecting money. And even persons not expected to become members are now becoming members. This is all due to the desire in the hearts of the preachers here in Bombay to serve Srila Prabhupada. And by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, everything is coming very smoothly. This is confirmed in our hearts that without Srila Prabhupada, we cannot do any single work in this movement. Srila Prabhupada gives us encouragement just to kindly agree to stay with us. So yesterday, on Dasara day, we collected over 21,000 rupees and made ten members."

Prabhupada: [laughs] Very good.

Tamala Krsna: He says, "We cannot express in English what we are feeling in our hearts, but we are all very encouraged to go out and collect for Srila Prabhupada and expand his Life Membership program, and we are all very thankful that Srila Prabhupada has been merciful and..." [break]

Trivikrama: ...by your mercy.

Prabhupada: No. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavat... [SB 5.18.12]. Any devotee can become. That letter, mayor's letter also, it carries weight. What is his name?

Tamala Krsna: Ganatra? That telegram he sent?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. And the Statesman report, it is very, very...

Tamala Krsna: Very encouraging. This Haridasa is transformed. You said that it was due to the mercy of a Vaisnava, Giriraja.

Prabhupada: Hmm, yes.

Tamala Krsna: Remember how you said that?

Prabhupada: Vaisnava thakur tomar kukkura.

Tamala Krsna: [aside:] Giriraja gave him his association...

Prabhupada: Vaisnava. Chaḍiya vaisnava seva, nistar peyeche... [Prarthana]. Vaisnava's krpa. Vaisnava is already merciful. Vaisnava means merciful. Krpa-sindhu, ocean of mercy. That is Vaisnava.

Svarūpa Damodara: Just like last night, Dr. Pathak, the Dean of the College of Veterinary, said Srila Prabhupada is a touchstone, can transform everybody.

Pancadraviḍa: This change with Haridasa is a miracle.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Bombay is the most rich city in India. And now they are willing to help us. So there will be no scarcity of money. Wherever you'll go, you'll get it.

Tamala Krsna: But that building, that project, is so nice, you don't have to go anywhere. They come to you and give money.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. [laughs] That's Prabhupada's mercy.

Pancadraviḍa: Your project too, personal project.

Prabhupada: So when it is going...?

Tamala Krsna: When is it going to open?

Prabhupada: That building?

Tamala Krsna: What? What, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: That, another building or godown?

Tamala Krsna: You want to know when the godown is beginning to be built?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: November. Next, this coming month.

Pancadraviḍa: It is a long way from this grass hut we used to live in, Srila Prabhupada. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Gradually the whole world will be sympathetic. Everyone will recognize that they are doing real service.

Svarūpa Damodara: It's already so famous in Bombay. Everybody knows, all the taxi drivers. You say "Hare Krishna Land, Juhu," everybody knows.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? We'll sit you up now for you to take a little bit of prasadam. All right?

Prabhupada: I think you have to cleanse my...

Tamala Krsna: Okay. First we'll cleanse, then we'll sit Prabhupada up. Okay. [break] For one thing, just like this prasadam that Bhakti-caru Maharaja prepared is good for stopping..., you know, it's against passing stool. It will make a binding effect. That's why I thought you might appreciate it. Bhakti-caru made it especially because of that. It's like medicine. But nice-tasting medicine. You could try.

Prabhupada: Yes, I can try.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. You should do it just to please us, Srila Prabhupada.

Upendra: You can take the shoulders and... [indistinct] Okay.

Tamala Krsna: Many people were in the temple tonight. The kirtana party that has come from Mayapur, they were chanting Hare Krsna very sweetly, and the whole temple room was filled with people sitting, listening and waiting for the arati. Very nice program. Think you'll try to take a little more, Srila Prabhupada? Bhakti-caru can feed you.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Please open your mouth Srila Prabhupada. Open little big. Will I give you little orange juice?]

Tamala Krsna: How about juice?

[pause] You'll sit up for a little while? Can I scratch your back?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? Would you like Jayadvaita and Pradyumna to come again?

Prabhupada: Hmm. If you can make some resting place, then I can sit down more.

Tamala Krsna: You mean with pillows in the back?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Shall we do just now? Okay.

Baradraj: There's more pillows coming for Srila Prabhupada.

[backgound discussion among devotees about getting pillows]

Prabhupada: It is giving pain.[?]

Tamala Krsna: We're just getting some round pillows from upstairs. Than it will be very good. They'll be here in a minute, Srila Prabhupada.

Baradraj: Srila Prabhupada? If you want, you can lean back. I'm holding the pillows in the back. [break]

Prabhupada: ...reported.

Tamala Krsna: You can take it home with you. Bring it back tomorrow.

Prabhupada: You purchase few copies more. It is very important.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. This is a photocopy. I can get photocopies made. That will be easier probably than getting back issue. And cheaper too.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Read it.]

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada wants you to read it?

Hari Prasad: "The nonphysical view on the origin of the species..." [break]

Tamala Krsna: Who, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Our... Our O.B.L. Kapoor.

Tamala Krsna: Your Godbrother.

Hari Prasad: What does he say?

Tamala Krsna: He says life comes from atoms and molecules, Dr. Kapoor. This is his conclusion after all these years reading Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. He said like that in the conference.

Hari Prasad: He said?

Tamala Krsna: Right, Svarūpa Damodara?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, something like that, very vague. Complete misunderstanding.

Tamala Krsna: What was his point in the conference?

Svarūpa Damodara: He was saying there is nothing like table. He was sitting on a table. So said it is just an imagination. There's nothing like that.

Tamala Krsna: Says it's illusion.

Svarūpa Damodara: So he said it's illusion.

Prabhupada: But he quotes from the Ramakrishna.

Tamala Krsna: In his book that he wrote, Dr. Kapoor quoted the great authority Ramakrishna. [laughter]

Jayadvaita: [reading article] "The Russian scientist Dr. A. I. Oparin has been propagating this view since 1957, but his challengers demand 'really solid examples of life arising from matter.' At a three-day international conference on 'Life Comes from Life' at Vrndavana last week at the Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the keynote. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO.

Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Singh, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from the USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science, on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of a materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme of a discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermodynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, Professor of Biochemistry at the All-India Institute of Medical Science.

Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely in terms of chemical combinations. There were intricate features of life, ranging from the structure of molecules in living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics 'cannot account for these phenomena,' and 'life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy.' Mr. Cohen said that 'Proof of the Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed, one into another, through many small changes, mutations. Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said.

Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supported the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the presence of life proves that there must be further higher-order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science.

All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life, and they also corroborate the systematic description of the nature of life given in Bhagavad-gita. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupada: [Transl. How did you like the article?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Very nice.]

Prabhupada: Bhaktivedanta Institute is doing something scientifically to understand God consciousness. That is proof. And it is well advertised. And we shall go on proceeding like that more and more. So many scientists, foreign and local, they participated, discussed. It is not ordinary thing. Hmm?

Bhagatji: Jaya.

Prabhupada: The importance of Bhaktivedanta Institute is there, not that theory molecule. "Come on," we are challenging. "Discuss like scientist, not like sentimentalist."

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? It seems like we should... Next time we have a conference here, it should be done in a proper hall.

Prabhupada: Yes, we have got enough place.

Tamala Krsna: Some people were thinking that Vrndavana is not a good place for building that hall, but...

Prabhupada: No, there is no immediate necessity. We have got already nice building.

Tamala Krsna: But we have no hall in that building. There's no... The place where they held the meeting last time is now going to become the restaurant.

Prabhupada: Let it become.

Tamala Krsna: So there won't be any place to have any future meetings. There's no big room.

Prabhupada: That we shall have in..., conveniently, not immediately. Immediately there is Bombay.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: [Transl. In Bombay, wherever we go in Bombay people give donation. In one day we collect 21,000/- rupees. In one single day. People give generously.] And the mayor, ex-mayor, has given telegram. Where is that telegram?

Tamala Krsna: This is a telegram... It says, "Pray God, Krsna, to give you long life to spread Indian culture in every nook and corner of the universe. Signed Ravji K. Ganatra, ex-mayor of Bombay." He's very convinced, Srila Prabhupada, about Your Divine Grace and this Movement, because he traveled around the world and stayed as a guest at our temples, and he was amazed to see how this Indian culture had actually been transplanted and taken root in all of these countries all over the world. He could not believe it. He was so amazed and impressed. He said that he's seen genuinely that this Indian culture has been taken up in true spirit.

Hari Prasad: This is the first Movement that has started mūrti-pūja throughout the world.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Hari Prasad-ji said that...

Hari Prasad: No, Prabhupada, this was the first mission which had started...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari Prasad: ...mūrti-pūja throughout the world.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari Prasad: They've gone, preached, come back, but they have created devotee in every place in the world.

Tamala Krsna: The other missions that went, simply they left... It was like the Vedanta Society, all dry.

Prabhupada: "Brahman, Brahman."

Tamala Krsna: [laughs] Prabhupada said, "Brahman, Brahman."

Pancadraviḍa: Simply drew zeroes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Now Prabhupada's books are reaching almost every home all over the world, in all languages.

Prabhupada: That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta: mayavadi haya krsne aparadhi. While discussing with Prakasananda Sarasvati... "Caitanya," "Brahman," that's... Nothing like Krsna. Here they are doing, this Akhandananda, and what is his name? Another...?

Hari Prasad: Tirupati[?].

Prabhupada: "Brahman, Brahman." When they cannot explain anything-"Brahman," bas, finished.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? Pradyumna Prabhu is here. Would you like to hear some verse?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Hari Prasad is taking leave, Srila Prabhupada, he is returning to Hyderabad.

Hari Prasad: [Transl. I am leaving Prabhupada.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Stay here few days.]

Hari Prasad: [Transl. Pardon?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Stay here for a few days.]

Hari Prasad: [Transl. Yes, Svamiji?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I am saying...]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Stay here for few days.]

Hari Prasad: [Transl. I will come back again in your service. Svamiji Maharaja, for your treatment, there is a Vaidyaji in Bombay. If you give permission, his name is Vaijanath. Also the weather will be cold here after about fifteen days or a month.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's why I left Bombay.]

Hari Prasad: [Transl. The weather in Bombay now is not good for you. Wherever there is dry climate, if you give permission...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Where?]

Hari Prasad: [Transl. You may come to Hyderabad for a month, say after fifteen, twenty days.]

Hari Prasad: It was started...

Tamala Krsna: How you will get Prabhupada there? What is the conveyance?

Hari Prasad: Conveyance, there is train.

Tamala Krsna: That's the problem.

Hari Prasad: No, air-conditioned train, at this time you can't travel.

Tamala Krsna: Now he's a little weak.

Hari Prasad: No, this all cough and all these things could be... In dry climate it can be...

Tamala Krsna: But unless he's a little stronger, to travel...

Hari Prasad: Yes, little strength, if he goes. That vaidya, kaviraja, can come from Bombay. He had treated my father-in-law for about four-five years.

Tamala Krsna: Who is that?

Hari Prasad: He is Bhagirath, Pandit Bhagirath. He is friend of [indistinct] Swami. He's a very good Ayurvedic.

Satadhanya: Set it up. [break]

Prabhupada: Svarūpa Damodara?

Svarūpa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Stop the medicine.

Svarūpa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada suggests that he stops the medicine for one day, so...

Satadhanya: See the effect.

Svarūpa Damodara: And I'm also going to Delhi in the morning, so Srila Prabhupada... [break]

Tamala Krsna: I agree with your suggestion, Srila Prabhupada. I think it's a good idea to stop the medicine for a day and to consult the kaviraja, and also to try to drink something else besides only fruit juice. I think the medicine should be stopped for a day. It's not... Hamsadūta, I was talking with him. He said that he sometimes would do these fruit juice diets. In America this is something that's done a lot of times. He said when he would take this fruit juice diet, he said after... He said there's no question of passing stool. He said when you take fruit juice diets you don't pass stool, because there's nothing... He says eventually you just pass urine. So the fact that Prabhupada is passing stool is very unnatural, at least for taking fruit juice. He's not eating anything, so how can he pass stool four times? What is the stool coming from if he's not eating?

Prabhupada: Whatever little blood is there.

Svarūpa Damodara: Whatever little blood is there.

Bhavananda: I think it's a mistake, Srila Prabhupada, to take this strong medicine without having the kaviraja actually come and diagnose himself and...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satadhanya: Actually, the kaviraja said to me that he never prescribes medicine without first seeing the patient.

Prabhupada: So bring him. And stop medicine.

Tamala Krsna: No, I think that's the right idea. This is not right, passing stool like this. This passing stool so many times is not right. It means that the medicine is not taking properly.

Svarūpa Damodara: Some reaction is happening.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. Definitely it's a reaction.

Svarūpa Damodara: Five times. That's a lot.

Prabhupada: Local kaviraja also said it will be very strong now.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Svarūpa Damodara: You can consult a local kaviraja? [break]

Prabhupada: ...unless one is local.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that means Bonamali. First of all let us see this man, if he can come or what he says. Otherwise we may call Bonamali.

Prabhupada: And stick to him. Huh?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, we should stick to somebody. We have to have a little faith in somebody. Accepting and rejecting is not so good. To reject so many different times. Bonamali won't do any harm. Whether how much good, that's another matter. He's not bad.

Svarūpa Damodara: Sincere also.

Tamala Krsna: He's sincere. I don't think he cheated Srila Prabhupada. I still don't think so. [break] When Svarūpa Damodara goes, he can take one of the pills which Bonamali made and show it to this kaviraja.

Prabhupada: That is impossible.

Svarūpa Damodara: Impossible, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, seeing the pill, what to see?

Tamala Krsna: He may be able to recognize it as one of the types of makara-dhvaja. The main point is that Bonamali said it's makara-dhvaja. So by showing, he may be able to recognize, "Yes, this appears to be." At least we can get his opinion. Because that other kaviraja, that Ramanuji, threw some doubt on Bonamali's medicine, saying "This is not makara-dhvaja." So we're having some doubt about it and about Bonamali. If by seeing, this man would say, "Yes, this is one of the ways it's made. It does appear like this," then that would restore...

Prabhupada: No, he is coming. If he is coming, he can say here.

Tamala Krsna: But he may not come. He may... Svarūpa Damodara may just get his opinion. So in case he does not come, by taking one of the pills there's nothing lost. We can get his opinion.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, I can take a sample.

Tamala Krsna: Where is the harm?

Trivikrama: What about the vegetable juice in preference to the fruit juice?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I mean the real thing is that Prabhupada is passing urine, and he is passing stool. So there's... Where is the harm for taking vegetable juice? The main thing is that Prabhupada has to swallow it. If he can swallow it, it's being digested to some extent, because the urine is coming and stool is passing.

Prabhupada: When stool comes, urine does not come.

Tamala Krsna: Right. No, there's something definitely... Something is amiss, that instead of coming out as urine, it comes out as stool. [break]

Bhavananda: But you did say Krsna advised you through this dream to take that medicine.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bhavananda: You said that Krsna directed you through that dream to take that makara-dhvaja medicine. So there are six different types of makara-dhvaja.

Prabhupada: But Krsna directed-Ramanuja Vaisnava.

Tamala Krsna: I got a... Gopala Krsna told me that Jayapataka Maharaja had called him and said that they have arranged for one Ramanuja kaviraja there in Bengal side, and everything was ready if you can come there.

Trivikrama: Can you bring him here?

Tamala Krsna: No. He's not going to come.

Bhavananda: They have their medicines and everything there.

Prabhupada: He has?

Tamala Krsna: He's arranged for Ramanuja kaviraja, Jayapataka Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Where?

Tamala Krsna: In Bengal side, Calcutta side, Mayapur. Mayapur, Calcutta, but he's there.

Bhavananda: He wears Ramanuja tilaka, he's got good recommendation from L. M. Bangur.

Trivikrama: But how can Prabhupada travel?

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada cannot travel, because any movement will disturb his kidney.

Prabhupada: He cannot come?

Tamala Krsna: Well, it will be the same as the man from Delhi. He can't come and stay here and give up his practice. I mean, he stays in Calcutta, so... He won't be able to simply come and then... He'll leave, and then he won't be able to consult. If the idea is that the man has to be here every day...

Prabhupada: No. If the Ramanuji kaviraja gives makara-dhvaja, that is the last. If he...

Bhavananda: That's what?

Svarūpa Damodara: That is the last.

Bhavananda: He would only have to come once, you mean, and prescribe makara-dhvaja.

Prabhupada: No... [break] ...said there is a good kaviraja?

Tamala Krsna: I don't know who it is that approved this one, but according to Gopala, Jayapataka says that he's arranged one Ramanuji kaviraja.

Prabhupada: Where?

Bhavananda: Calcutta.

Prabhupada: Why not consult him?

Tamala Krsna: Well, we'd have to go there.

Prabhupada: Go.

Tamala Krsna: No, I mean the point is you would have to go there. See, they want to see you, Srila Prabhupada. Actually, this is not the... You know, generally a kaviraja wants to see the person that he's giving the medicine to, so that he can know...

Prabhupada: So if he agrees to take up the case, I'll go.

Bhavananda: He'll take up the case. That there's no doubt.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, but will he come every day to Mayapur or stay in Mayapur? That is the question.

Svarūpa Damodara: First of all, if he can come at least for a few days here, if it is possible, and if he examines, then, if we make the next move, I think that will be wiser.

Prabhupada: Yes. If somebody goes and brings him, then he decides. Then we shall go.

Tamala Krsna: Well, Svarūpa Damodara, you could call direct to Calcutta and talk with Adri-dharana, who has contacted him, and let him discuss and see if he can bring him here. First of all, he should ask whether the man is willing. We can fly him here to Delhi and bring him here. I'm sure he'll agree to that. But it should be... He should be here.

Svarūpa Damodara: I can call from Delhi.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. You could call Adri-dharana. He's the one who found the man. [break]

Prabhupada: ...bring one Ramanuja. He has the makara-dhvaja. So if... Bhavananda has suggested, somebody very responsible go and bring him. And then, if we can, we shall go together there. Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: In the meantime, all medicine stopped. Hmm?

Bhavananda: There's no loss in stopping the medicine at this point, because this medicine is not improving your condition.

Prabhupada: No.

Bhavananda: We want some positive improvement.

Prabhupada: If in the meantime I die without medicine, so I am dying. What is wrong? The parikrama may go on.

Tamala Krsna: What about eating or taking liquids?

Prabhupada: Liquid, from practical suggestion, I'll take little vegetable juice, that's all.

Tamala Krsna: And fruit juice also.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhavananda: No loss in taking fruit juice. When you were not taking the medicine a few days back, you were taking fruit juice every day and not passing stool. When you were in Delhi and Prabhupada was taking fruit juice every day, he was not passing stool. So there's no loss. We can take vegetable juice, fruit juice, vegetable broth. [break]

Prabhupada: ...reacting adversely. That is proved. Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, it seems so.

Svarūpa Damodara: Is it two days that we started this medicine?

Prabhupada: And janiya suniya visa khainu [Hari Hari Biphale 1]. It is acting adversely, if still I take, then, knowingly...

Trivikrama: Drinking poison.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That is...

Svarūpa Damodara: So we shouldn't consult with this kaviraja anyway? Because this is his medicine.

Prabhupada: No, consulting... When we want direct treatment, how you can consult him?

Svarūpa Damodara: We can at least tell the report. We can at least inform him that after taking this medicine we have such-and-such symptoms, so...

Bhavananda: Still, that's fourth-hand information. And he's not a Ramanuja-sampradaya. The only reason we were looking... We were looking for makara-dhvaja... [end]