Room Conversation – September 13, 1972, Dallas

720913R2-DALLAS [27:47 Minutes]

Then they can be initiated

Satsvarūpa: Some of the children are 10 years old but we have been being very strict because they are loose in their behavior. They cannot be initiated until they are chanting 16 rounds, trying to be very strict with that but they see that others are being initiated quickly. They saw the initiation today some of the 10-year-old boys. We want the parents to initiate, "why, why can I can I be initiated?"

Prabhupada: Then they can be initiated.

Satsvarūpa: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: 10 years, 10 years they can be initiated… Why not 10 years?

Satsvarūpa: As long as. Unless they be chanting 16 rounds?

Prabhupada: Must.

Satsvarūpa: Then they can be and in the morning.

Prabhupada: Then how they are being initiated? If they cannot.

Satsvarūpa: I mean, our children are at gurukula.

Prabhupada: 10 years old boy cannot chant 16 rounds?

Satsvarūpa: That has, that has been our past mistakes [indistinct].

Now it has been disciplinary should be [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm. It requires some rituals, just like in the morning if you sit down and chant they should also sit down and chant. 16 rounds must be finished.

Indian Mataji: [indistinct] initiation swamiji you give some mantras [indistinct] what [indistinct].

Prabhupada: This Hare Krsna mantra, in the beginning then another mantra after six months or after one year. When I see that the student is following all the rules and regulations.

Indian Mataji: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian Mataji: [indistinct] yesterday [indistinct] we try to avoid the issue, sometimes once in a while.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Indian Mataji: One year [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No, we cannot…

Indian Mataji: So what is the tendency [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling.

Young Indian boy: What you mean by 16 rounds are 16 times around is one round?

[Prabhupada moves some beads across his desk]

Prabhupada: 16 rounds is this you begin here, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. This is one bead, so then go to the second, go to the third in this way you come here. That is one round, again begin from here down here, that is the second-round. In this way 16 rounds.

Indian Mataji: From here we have been initiated by Sri Rama [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Mataji: Ramakrishna Mission both of us and he has given us mantra and initiation.

Prabhupada: That mant... that is your consideration we don't approve this mission. That you are initiated and eating meat.

Indian Mataji: No that [indistinct]

Prabhupada: These nonsense things we don't agree.

Indian Mataji: That's what I'm asking you.

Prabhupada: No, no this is not allowed. That is not. That is bogus. Initiation does not mean that, you must be purified.

Young Indian boy: How many beads are there in this?

Indian Mataji: 108

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Mataji: Or 100 and 8…

Prabhupada: Yes 108. It must be according to the sastra, the Ramakrishna Mission they don't care for sastra they do away with it, they have no sastra…yaḥ sastra. Find out. yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya.. Find out this verse.

[Srila Prabhupada continues the conversation in Hindi. na sukham na paraḥ]

Prabhupada: [Transl. One who rejects scriptural injunctions and works whimsically, he never attains perfection or anything. na sukham na param gatim.]

Young Indian boy: [Transl. But in India the Hindus eat meat etc.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Let them go to hell. We have nothing to do with them. Sastra does not approve.]

Young Indian boy: [Transl. How has it begun then?]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Young Indian boy: [Transl. How did they start eating?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Demons. The demons have taught them. If you mix with demons you will become demon. And if you mix with demigods you will become demigod.] … Sastra means Vedic revealed scriptures just like Bhagavad-gita.

Young Indian boy: Gita.

Prabhupada: Vedas, Upanisads.

Indian Mataji: Sastra...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pradyumna: Is this the one?

Prabhupada: Eh? yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya? Find out this verse, yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya.

Pradyumna: Yac… yac sastra?

Prabhupada: Yaḥ sastra.

Young Indian boy: [Talking in background] [indistinct]

Prabhupada: There is no Yah?

Pradyumna: Yaḥ sastra.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Young Indian boy: [Talking in background] [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You don't find?

Indian Mataji: There should be some time also for chanting on beads?

Pradyumna: Oh, yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya

Prabhupada: Ha [Transl. Time. There is no fix time as such for chanting. You finish 16 rounds throughout the day and night. Some time 1 round, some time 2 rounds, some time 4 rounds. But you must complete 16 rounds during 24 hours. Within 24 hours...Maximum it takes 2 hours to complte 16 rounds. So can't you give 2 hours to God out of 24 hours? I would demand 24 hours, just like these boys are giving. They are engaged 24 hours in the Lord's service. They eat for God, they sleep for God, they work for God.] ... So what is that? You have got?

Pradyumna: Yes:

"But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according….

Prabhupada: He who discards scriptural injunctions. Then?

Pradyumna: …and acts according to his own whims

Prabhupada: Ha, acts according to his own whims. Then?

Pradyumna: Attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.

Prabhupada: That's it. Simply waste of time. [Transl. These are the words from the supreme Lord's lotus mouth. And Ramakrishna Mission preaches, 'Do whatever you like.' There is no harm. Eat whatever you like, do whatever you want. Is this any injunction? God Himself is declaring this.]

Young Indian boy: [Transl. What if one has to eat for Medical reasons?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Medicine is different thing. Ature niyamo nasti. When one is afflicted there is no hard and fast rule for him. That time...People eat these things on the plea of medicine. Some say by not eating fish my vision will diminish. Therefore eat as much you want.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. In our family my sister-in-law had T.B. The doctor asked her to eat egg. And she started feeling well.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Ah?]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. Just by eating one egg she got strength. Such circumstances come in life...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Why did you do that? Just by eating egg a person is guaranteed not to die?]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. No.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Then why do you...Today or tomorrow you will have to die.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. T.B is dangerous.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What I mean is today or tomorrow one has to die. Who is going to live here forever?]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. People try in all respects to...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You try, but why try in such a way which is sinful? Why like that?]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. While remaining in the materialistic way of life ordinary people...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Forget ordinary people. Nothing like that. This is the reason India is ruined.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. No, many Hindus still don't eat all this. We also eat very rarely.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Due to being misguided religious principles are lost in India. It has gone to hell. That is why I am very sad that we have abandoned our own culture. Did their fathers and forefathers ever eat egg? They all died. Finished. This is not good. There are so many palatable foodstuffs. Just like yesterday we prepared rasagulla. Eat those, they are full of protein. What's there in egg? Eat rasagulla, it has got everything. What you call it? Panir: curd. Panir has got so much protein. Urad dal: leguminous seeds of pulse has got protein. Chickpea has protein.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. That's true. The doctor had given her a special diet.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, that is an...]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. We prefer to eat Indian foods. Dal, subji...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Dal and chapati contain a lot of protein.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. It becomes difficult especially when you travel.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. These things started when English medicines were introduced. Before that there was no such thing. In my entire lifetime I have never even looked at eggs and fishes, what to speak of eating! Now I am 77 years old. Did I die for not eating those? I am still working.]

Indian Mataji: You are blessed.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Mataji: You are blessed.

Prabhupada: Everyone can be blessed, why I am?

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: [Laughter] if I can be blessed then you can be blessed also, I am also like you. How these boys are becoming blessed? [Transl. From the very beginning of their life these boys are taught to eat egg and beef by their parents. How they have given up? We don't want to give up. We just talk and give excuses.]

Indian Mataji: [Transl. We don't always eat. Just in special cases. Children also like that.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No.]

Devotee: One question?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: One question Srila Prabhupada is, [indistinct] hasn't guided me what to do when the children grow older, when they approached the age of marriage.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee: How should it be done?

Prabhupada: Oh, let them grow old, now they are all minors, four years, five years, six years that consideration we shall see when they are 16 years old.

Devotee: 16.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: For both men and women?

Prabhupada: Man 24 years. According to Vedic system, girls 16 years and boys 25, they should be married. There must be difference of age 8 to 10 years. That is nice. And before that none of them should have sex life. Then it will be good, healthy and they should simply engage themselves in Krsna consciousness. Then spiritually, mentally, bodily they become grown up. That should be our...

In brahmacari life there is no sex life, in vanaprastha there is no sex life, in sannyasa there is no sex life. Out of the four stages in three stages there is no sex life. Only in the married, young married couples, they are allowed sex life, no other. Neither the students, nor the retired, nor the sannyasis.

Devotee: The next question that [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Tapasa brahmacaryena tyagena yamena [SB 6.1.13]. tapasa brahmacaryena, tapasa the human life is meant for tapasya, not to become like cats and dogs. Then what is the difference between cats and dogs? That is Vedic civilisation, tapasya.

This is the instruction of Rsabhadeva, here he is instructing his children, 100 sons. "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working very very hard like hogs and dogs to satisfy the senses." The modern civilisation is they are being taught to work very very hard day and night only for sense gratification. They have no other way, even if one is working so hard what is their aim? Sex life that is all. I was seeing one signboard, what was that? "Topless girls," I enquired what is that topless girls, "they are naked," that's all… Does that mean topless girls?

Devotee: Yes Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Just see. What is this nonsense? They are working day and night hard like cats and dogs and at the night and it is said, "open up to 4pm, you come here and have sex life," that is all. This is the modern civilisation, the hog's civilisation. The hog there is loitering in the street [Transl. You must have seen hogs. Here we don't find. In our India we have got. Day and night...]

Whole day and night, "where is stool, where is stool, where is stool, where is stool." And as soon as he gets stool he gets a little strength immediately no discrimination mother, sister, daughter-sex. This is hog. These are nature's instruction and here is your representative if you don't discriminate of sex life and eat anything no discrimination of eating and sex then you are this hog. Don't claim that you are human being, that is nature's instruction, "here is your representative, you see?"

He has no discrimination of eating, he is anything up to stool. And getting fat because stool has, contains all the hydrophosphites chemical. Have you analysed stool? Yes, this is medical opinion, stool has got all the hydrophosphites, if one can eat stool he gets very quickly fatty and Germany devised a plan.

[Aside:] Aiye aiye. …devised a plan to take out fat from stool and they were taking. They did not waste stool, do you know any of you? Yes. Just like markarine or is it. marga...

Svarūpa Damodara: Margarine?

Prabhupada: Margarine?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is made from oil.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is imitation butter.

Prabhupada: So they were making butter from stool, generally…Yes, synthetic. This is science, science means you eat stool, butter from stool... [Transl. Human life is meant for undergoing tapasya.] Just to, for this reason in India we find tapasya, renunciation tapasya. All big big kings, the Panḍavas so powerful just as soon as because all their sons were lost in the fight so they are waiting for somebody. As soon as Pariksit Maharaja their grandson became grown up immediately handed over charge of everything.

This is Vedic civilisation not that up to the end of life, so long as one is not fired. Just like our Mahatma Gandhi until he was fired he would not give up the post. I've seen this politicians they are so much attracted with this power of politics. Even they are old enough, according to Vedic civilisation, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet as soon as one attains 50 years he must give up family life.

He will go away from home simply accompanied by his wife and in that period there is no sex simply husband-and-wife go from pilgrimage to pilgrimage and again come home, live there for two months again go away. In this way when the man is completely unattached he sends back the wife home that you live under you grown up children and he takes sannyasa. That is Vedic civilisation, it is not that unless death forces him to leave family life he is not prepared. That is not Vedic civilisation. Everyone has to voluntarily give up family life, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet….

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Oh no. Oh no.

Indian man: How can we leave at the age of 50 in the home.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: How can we leave at the age of 50 in the house? When we have not even educated our children and we live in a small community.

Prabhupada: Well you can educate your children. Suppose you marry at the age of 25 years with a grown-up girl, you get a child with one year and when you are 50 years old the child is 25 years old. So you can entrust your family affairs to the grown-up child and retire.

Indian man: Yeah if one marries at the age of 25.

Prabhupada: So why does he not? Marriage must be finished for boys 25 years for girls 16 years. That is Vedic civilisation. We have created all problems and in this country there is no marriage, there is no marriage. All the girls are without husbands and government is supplying their welfare, donation. Encouraging them and what they can do? They are unprotected. This social system is very bad system.

Polygamy is not allowed even by calculation if there are 300 girls and 100 boys then how each girl can get a husband?

Therefore Hindus, according to Vedic civilisation the ksatriyas especially they were marrying more than one wife, just like Krsna married 16,000 wives. Of course he was God that is a different thing. But do you think that Krsna set a bad example by marrying more, wives? No. That was allowed, now they have made new Hindu code law but according to Manu-samhita the higher castes especially the brahmanas, ksatriyas and the vaisyas they can marry more than one wife.

It means that generally the female population is greater than the man and if we want at the, if the father has the responsibility then the girl as soon as she attains puberty before attaining puberty the father must find out a husband and give her in charge of the husband. So long she is, I mean to say, very young she is under the care of father and as soon as she attains youth, when sex appetite is very strong she must be given in charge of her husband and when she is old she must be taken care of by the grown-up children. For women three stages but they are always dependent, na striyam svatantratam arhati, that is the injunction of the Manu-samhita [Chapter 9.3]. Women should not have independence they should be protected.

And still we see in India women under the protection either by the father or by the husband or by sons they remain very happily. Even Kunti she was dependent on her five sons the Panḍavas, mother of Arjuna. She was not ordinary woman, she had so many qualifications but still she was dependent on the sons. They lost their kingdom, they were banished the five Panḍavas. Kunti was not banished but because she was dependent on sons she also went with the sons.

Sitaji, Sitaji, Ramacandra was ordered by his father to go to the forest but she was not ordered, Sita, she was kings daughter and kings wife so why she accepted all the tribulation of the husband? She also went with Ramacandra and because she went with Ramacandra so many mishaps, there was fight with Ravana if she would not have gone, [laughs] then Ravana would have been saved.

But it is the duty of the wife, husband is going to the forest the wife must go. Although Ramacandra denied that, "you remain, I am going, I am all right", she said, "no I cannot do it". This is Vedic culture, ardhangani, wife must remain with the husband always. Half body, wife is half body. And the husband also, I mean to say, leaves wife under the care of the sons when they are grown-up, this is Vedic civilisation. [pause]

So I want to talk with Mr Bajaj, you can... [break] [end]