Room Conversation – November 10, 1977, Vṛndāvana

That is material

Bhavananda: We should begin the parikrama in Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhavananda: Because quite honestly, Srila Prabhupada, I think most of us are very worried. If you go off down the road and send us all back to our different assignments, we would not be able to serve with our full attention, knowing that our beloved father and spiritual guide was in such weak condition. So if we begin in Vrndavana, we're all here now; we can see, so that we know what arrangements to make for the future when you want to leave.

Prabhupada: Hmm. You make me flat.

Bhakti-caru: Is this alright Srila Prabhupada? [break]

Jayapataka: We heard that Your Divine Grace had a dream that a kaviraja of the Ramanuja-sampradaya would treat you and bring you back to strength, and this kaviraja says that in a very short time, following the treatment, you would regain your strength. Although he hasn't got all of the medicines yet, but within a day or two they'll all be prepared, and he says within fifteen days you should be quite improved in strength. So far, he seems to have been quite sincere.

Prabhupada: No, no, he's sincere. I'll drink milk. Whatever strength is obtainable, there will be.

Jayapataka: Like to follow the same treatment, only while traveling.

Tamala Krsna: [whispers] It's not part of the treatment.

Hamsadūta: So we should meet and make a program for going around Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsadūta: You want to begin tomorrow morning?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): If Prabhupada travels in a van it would be very bumpy. He should have a big bus.

Hamsadūta: Let's discuss it.

Prabhupada: Bus?

Devotee (1): A big bus.

Prabhupada: No, no, bus will not be good. Bullock cart.

Bhavananda: Bullock cart.

Jayapataka: That is very bumpy.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bhavananda: Your Guru Maharaja used to have bullock cart travel from Hoolaghat up to the Caitanya Matha. You told me you put a nice mattress down in the back and a cover, and you lay down there. You even told me once to go to Calcutta that way. You lay down at night; you go little bit, little bit; and in the morning, when you wake up, you're in Calcutta.

Prabhupada: Bullock, you get the cow dung.

Tamala Krsna: Cook with it.

Jayapataka: In this part of India it's very cold now for Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupada: Underneath the tree it is not cold.

Tamala Krsna: You sound like you are very determined to go, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Daytime we expose in the sunshine, and camp underneath a tree at night. That has to be arranged.

Bhakti Charu: [Transl. Srila Prabhupada, shall I give some milk?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Give, little hot it will be.]

Bhakti Charu: [Transl. Open Your mouth, is the hotness alright?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Its very sweet.]

Bhakti Charu: [Transl. Okay, please open your mouth little bit Srila Prabhupada.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Okay no more.]

Bhakti Charu: [Transl. Open your mouth little mouth Srila Prabhupada]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You will give again?]

Bhakti Charu: [Transl. Little water Srila Prabhupada. Water also you will not take?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No.]

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? Should the devotees take prasadam now?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Tamala Krsna: It's about 1:30 now. After taking prasadam we can meet and chalk out a program for parikrama and tirtha-yatra. Is that all right? Okay.

Prabhupada: I thought you have taken.

Tamala Krsna: No, we were all surrounding you, listening very intently to all of your instructions.

Jagadisa: Prasadam has been saved for the devotees that are here. I arranged it.

Hamsadūta: So what time shall we meet?

Tamala Krsna: Three? Three o'clock we'll meet. So we'll have our meeting, Srila Prabhupada, with Lokanatha also present.

Jagadisa: Satsvarūpa also.

Prabhupada: Four o'clock.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm? Yes. And then we'll begin tomorrow. Is that soon enough?

Prabhupada: Yes. Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Should we depart for taking prasadam now, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Okay.

Prabhupada: Who is attending?

Bhavananda: Upendra.

Prabhupada: Upendra is very good attendant. [break]

Tamala Krsna: We were discussing how to make this parikrama possible, and we've concluded that the best thing was, as we had said earlier, to parikrama around Vrndavana to begin with. And for that purpose we sent Lokanatha Maharaja and Pancadraviḍa Maharaja and Trivikrama Maharaja to get a bullock cart ready.

Prabhupada: Hired or purchased?

Tamala Krsna: No, for now just hired, not purchased. Later on we can make a more permanent arrangement, and it can be fixed up as nicely as possible. At the same time while we were meeting, the kaviraji, he also was present. So we inquired from him what he thought about this program, from a medical point of view of course. Spiritually he is in complete agreement. So from a medical point of view, he said that you would not at all be able to withstand this kind of a trip. He said that in a bullock cart, moving around, bumping on the road, you might not be able to live more than a couple of hours. He's here now. He wanted to speak to you.

Devotee: [Transl. Speak up.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Yes, yes, tell me Maharaja what is your plan?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. My plan is...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Yes.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That by lying in this room all my energy has been exhausted. That is why I will go on Parikrama.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. This is your plan?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Parikrama, not one you can have two, but first let there be some strength in the body. I will also accompany you. That is not a factor. But in this present condition, you see, the other day you went for parikrama and your head started spinning. Yesterday you had some complain. First gain some strength in the body. Wait for a few days more. Then we will arrange your Parikrama here, and also your parikrama outside. Some strength should come. Without strength there will be heavy pressure on the heart. That is the only thing in you which is very strong and because of which you have got strong will power. We will cure all your illness and you will become healthy. In this condition it is not proper for you to travel. This is my personal opinion.]

Prabhupada: Lokanatha?

Svarūpa Damodara: Lokanatha has already gone, Srila Prabhupada.

Hamsadūta: He has gone to Mathura for renting.

Tamala Krsna: He has gone out for renting the bullock cart.

Prabhupada: Oh. [Transl. Let him go.]

Tamala Krsna: Lokanatha says that the bullock cart could probably go around Vrndavana in about five to six hours, parikramming Vrndavana town.

Prabhupada: Make an experiment. Then we shall decide.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said, "Make an experiment. Then we shall decide."

Jayapataka: What is that experiment?

Tamala Krsna: Jayapataka's asking what that experiment is, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Vrndavana parikrama.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said, "Vrndavana parikrama."

Hamsadūta: Prabhupada, does it mean with Your Divine Grace, or we should go alone first and see?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hamsadūta: Does it mean that Your Divine Grace will come on the experiment, or we should go without Your Divine Grace and experiment?

Prabhupada: Why?

Jayapataka: See if the road is very rough, if the road is passable by bullock cart the whole way.

Prabhupada: Bullock cart is not smooth.

Tamala Krsna: "Bullock cart is not smooth." How would you propose that we go, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Come, let us take the risk.

Svarūpa Damodara: "Come, let us take the risk."

Tamala Krsna: Go anyway. Let us take the risk.

Svarūpa Damodara: As your disciples, Srila Prabhupada, we are all neophytes. We don't know what is right and what is wrong. But at the same time we feel that we're very hopeful that you'll get strength slowly and slowly. And this morning you were telling us that you get a little strength. So we are hoping every day that "Prabhupada will gain even become stronger and be with us for many more years." So we are taking advice from kaviraji that you take milk more and more, day by day, so that Prabhupada will get stronger. Like kaviraja is suggesting that when Your Divine Grace gets stronger, he'll go with you in the parikrama; he will accompany you.

Prabhupada: So let us make experiment in Vrndavana.

Svarūpa Damodara: Shall we do that immediately?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. He has decided that he will do parikrama of Vrindavan first in bullock cart. Let us see how it goes.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. He should not do it at all.]

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji's saying that he shouldn't do it under any circumstances.

Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, if we follow the kaviraja's instructions and advice, then he feels that within fifteen days, twenty days, you will have strength. To take an unnecessary risk at this time, we have to practically appraise what will be the loss. You have said, "If I live or die on this parikrama, it will be glorious," but the loss will be that Srimad-Bhagavatam will not be finished, so many works will be unfinished. If it's just a matter of being a little patient and waiting fifteen more days-is only two weeks-then when you have strength, then we can all go on the parikrama, and you'll be able to hopefully gain more strength and finish up all of these works. But I think that the risk, in terms of the future of the whole world, is too great.

Prabhupada: Vrndavana parikrama is not risk.

Kaviraja: [Transl. There will be jerks and bumps in Vrndavana Parikrama Maharaja. I want that you will tour the whole world, but for now you postpone the plan of yours. Considering your machine [physical] condition, I do not give you permission that you go on parikrama. My conscience doesn't permit this. So in this condition..., that we will quickly take you to Mayapur and when you are strong enough to travel throughout the world you can go-thinking like this, you kindly give up this idea of Vrndavana parikrama now. This is my opinion. Then you see now.]

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, when you went on this parikrama the other day around the temple, you became dizzy just going around the temple four times. That's when you were even able to sit up in bed a lot more. How is it going to be possible to go for four, five or six hours, when you couldn't...

Prabhupada: Not four, five, six...

Tamala Krsna: That's how long it takes to go around Vrndavana by bullock cart. It takes three hours walking at a good pace, and it takes at least five or six hours, Lokanatha says, by bullock cart. How...? We couldn't even go a half hour just around this temple.

Prabhupada: No, I traveled. It takes two hours in the morning.

Tamala Krsna: Walking.

Svarūpa Damodara: By walking.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: But not by bullock cart. That's when a man walks very quickly, you can do it in two hours, but by bullock cart it will take five hours. We have... You had difficulty even doing a half-hour parikrama around this temple. You became very faint. Whether you think that you can go five hours in a row?

Prabhupada: From Madhava Maharaja's Matha, bring Krsna dasa Babaji.

Tamala Krsna: We should bring Krsna dasa Babaji here? Okay.

Prabhupada: And Indu.

Bhakti-caru: Indu-mati Prabhu?

Prabhupada: Indu-mati.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, Indu-mati.

Prabhupada: Then talk.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. Krsna-Balarama, you know Madhava Maharaja's mandira? You know Krsna dasa Babaji, Prabhupada's Godbrother?

Krsna-Balarama: I don't know but I can...

Tamala Krsna: [to another devotee] You know? So Krsna-Balarama will go with you. Prabhupada wants to see Indu-mati and Krsna dasa Babaji. You bring them both. You go in one of the cars.

Bhavananda: Are you sure you know which Krsna dasa Babaji?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, in Madhava Maharaja's Matha. Krsna-Balarama-not the Krsna dasa Babaji from Radha-kunḍa. Madhava Maharaja's.

Svarūpa Damodara: As your humble disciples, Srila Prabhupada, we are ready to take up any instruction that you've kindly given us, but at the same time, you have advised us many times that we shouldn't take unnecessary risk. Just like few days ago you were telling a Bengali saying, saying that when you are doubtful, don't do it. You instructed us.

Prabhupada: That is material. [laughter]

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, can you tell us why you want to go on the parikrama?

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Srila Prabhupada, shall I give some milk?] [break]

Prabhupada: ...good paddy.

Tamala Krsna: This seems like suicide, Srila Prabhupada, this program. It seems to some of us like it's suicidal.

Prabhupada: And this is also suicidal.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. Prabhupada said, "And this is also suicide." Now you have to choose which suicide.

Prabhupada: The Ravana will kill and Rama will kill. Better to be killed by Rama. Eh? That Marikhi-if he does not go to mislead Sita, he'll be killed by Ravana; and if he goes to be killed by Rama, then it is better.

Tamala Krsna: Who is this Prabhupada's talking about?

Devotees: Marikhi.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? I mean, just judging the symptoms, which is all that we can do, certain symptoms have certainly picked up. For instance, you're passing more urine, stool is coming naturally, and you're able to drink milk without getting any cough. These things were never there before.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That will continue.

Tamala Krsna: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kaviraja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Srila Prabhupada, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem: you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing: you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kaviraja is suggesting what you yourself had always said: "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kaviraja's treatment... To my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms... The symptoms have been better under his treatment than any other doctor so far.

Prabhupada: That will work.

Bhavananda: It will work.

Svarūpa Damodara: Also Srila Prabhupada's resting better than before.

Tamala Krsna: But the idea is that... According to him... I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and... I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and, you know, jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart..., a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment; but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any other doctors that we've had. I mean, we who are closely around you, Srila Prabhupada-your servants, secretary-our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine...

Prabhupada: That I know.

Tamala Krsna: He feels quite confident that you can live for six, seven more years, Srila Prabhupada.

Svarūpa Damodara: We also feel very confident.

Tamala Krsna: Better that you live for six or seven years productively than that you go on this parikrama and die within two hours gloriously. Why not live for six or seven years and then go on parikrama and die? If the parikrama can always be done, why not put it off for six or seven more years of preaching?

Svarūpa Damodara: You've already been glorious, Srila Prabhupada, all over the world. Whether you're here or outside doesn't really matter. You're already glorious.

Jayapataka: By your presence countless souls will attain devotional service. That's more glorious.

Prabhupada: But I think I shall be cured.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada says he thinks he will be cured by the parikrama.

Bhakti-caru to Kaviraja: [Transl. Prabhupadaji says that he thinks by going on parikrama he will be cured. He will be alright. By doing parikrama...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. All the roads are full of holes. There will be jerkings and bumpings in the road. The heart cannot tolerate such jerking at all. Later when he regains his health he can travel in the whole world. What is the there? He can sit here, lie down here and tour the whole world. This plan should be dropped. There are so many path holes even our hearts are jerked and there is pressure on it. And in bullock cart? He won't be able to tolerate it. He will not be able to tolerate it even for fifteen minutes.]

Hamsadūta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupada's opinion is more or less than the Kaviraja's, is what it comes down to.

Tamala Krsna: We can't continue..., consider. Srila Prabhupada has to.

Hamsadūta: If Prabhupada says that by going on parikrama he feels he'll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him?

Kaviraja: [Transl. You can do one thing. You get a pushpak vimana [aerial car or chariot] from Kuvera and in that chariot you do Vrndavana parikrama.]

Prabhupada: Ah?

Kaviraja: [Transl. You get one pushpaka vimana from Kuvera. If you meditate it will come.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Kuvera?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Yes. Kuvera has the pushpaka vimana. He gave it to Ramacandra when Ravana had stolen it. There will be no jerking in that. [smiles] The roads are such Swamiji, that normal person's condition becomes bad.]

Jagadisa: What did the Kaviraja say?

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji is telling Prabhupada to ask the Kuvera's puspaka-ratha-that is airplane of Kuvera-and do the parikrama in that.

Adri-dharana: Then there won't be any bumping that way.

Bhakti-caru: And he's saying that if Prabhupada asks for that, he will sure get it. [devotees chuckle.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. sarira madhyam khalu dharma sadhyam [Kumara-sambhava 5.33]-religiousity is accomplished through the help of the body. For you there is no need to attain religiousity as you are situated beyond this world. svyam prakasamanam dharmajna-the absolute truth is revealed to those who are coversant with the religious principles. This body is a guest house provided by the Supreme Lord. It is made of five material elements. At present it is not in the position to tolerate, otherwise why should we forbid you? No one stops such an act. Those who forbid this type of activities, they become implicated by sin. Considering your physical condition I don't feel right to give you permission to go.]

[indistinct background comments by devotees]

Tamala Krsna: Ultimately, what Prabhupada decides, we will do.

Hamsadūta: Well, it just...

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, but it goes on. As Prabhupada goes on, his disciples also go on.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Do not make him talk too much. It exhausts all his energy.]

Bhakti-caru: Shastriji's saying, Maharaja... Shastriji's saying that Prabhupada shouldn't talk too much. It's bad for his heart.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Whatever energy he accumulates, it will be wasted.]

Tamala Krsna: So, Srila Prabhupada, we can have kirtana until Krsna dasa comes. Okay.

[indistinct background comments by devotees]

[kirtana] [break] [end]