Room Conversation – June 12, 1975, Honolulu
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750612R1.HON
Room Conversation
- June 12, 1975, Honolulu 750612R1-HONOLULU [64:42 Minutes]
Don't think of anything else. That is the point
Prabhupada: You giving this theory that from the tree a man and a monkey came. So, where is that experiment? Where is that?
Siddha-svarupa: Sometimes it is seen that impersonalists, although they may be impersonalists, still they may not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Krsna. They, it is sometimes found that impersonalists they don't, they will not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Krsna. They will not even mention. They won't even mention.
Prabhupada: Generally do.
Prabhupada: That don't bother with it. Go on, do with minimum.
[long pause]
Past and present, you are present, the commentary is just carry out the orders, that's all. When you have accepted spiritual master, carry out, that's all. cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. Past means that, then you admit to your disciple, that in the past you could not carry out, therefore accept another birth. So, carry out. That is the point. What is the use of talking past, present and future? ar na koriho mane asa. This is wanted. Don't think of anything else. That is the point.
Prabhupada: No, whatever is past is past. Now, I have got the knowledge, let me carry out. Cakhu-dan, now I have got this real knowledge. What is the use of thinking of past ? In the past somebody was hippie was drinking. No, that world was past. Let me progress. Now let me do responsible thing. That is the point.
Prabhupada: Oh, we do not think of future. If I work sincerely, then future is all right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Why should we bother about the past? Past was not perfect. Therefore, I have got this, birth again like that. What is the use of concocting? Whatever has passed has passed. Now let me be sincere.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Prabhupada: For the future, let me do sincerely. Whatever future will be, that will be.
Prabhupada: If I do not go to Vaikuntha, doesn't matter.
Prabhupada: Still I shall carry out.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. If, faith should be there, if I am working rightly, then my future will be, secure. That is future. I have taken to this path for going back to home, back to Godhead, so I am, if I am doing nicely, according to the instructions of [indistinct], why should he think of? And if I am not doing rightly, then [indistinct]. This is called faith. Why should you bother about future? What is the reason?
Prabhupada: There is no question of bothering.
Prabhupada: If you care you do, just like Krsna says,
Past and future is explained there.
Do this. Always chant, think of Me, that mam evaisyasi asamsayam, be assured you will come to Me. So why don't you do your duty? And Krsna assures, they will come to Me, there is no doubt. [indistinct]. Why should he bother for the future? If you do exactly according to the rules and regulations, then your future is guaranteed. Even it is not guaranteed, still I shall go on doing. And that is pure. It is guaranteed. Krsna said, mam evaisyasi asamsayam, so why do you doubt? Why there should be doubt? Krsna said it is guaranteed. Why should you bother about future? You, you bother whether you are doing rightly or not. That should be your business. Otherwise Krsna assures. Where is doubt? Huh? The future is assured by Krsna, and…, why you are doubting? Then you don't believe in Krsna. You have to see whether you are doing rightly what Krsna says. That is your business. What is the use of thinking past, future, present? Do your duty as Krsna says, as spiritual master says, then everything is all right. There is no question or doubt. Krsna says, asamsayam, mam evaisyasi asamsayam. Asamsayam means without a doubt you will come to Me.
Prabhupada: And ours should be that, it is not a bargain, that Krsna is assuring, therefore I will have to serve Krsna. That even I will go to hell, it doesn't matter. That is my duty. Krsna is assuring, that is all right, but even, some reason or Krsna doesn't drive me, its still I shall do.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Krsna whatever you like [indistinct], still I cannot give up [indistinct]. To make bargain with Krsna, then you are not a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes. There is no bargaining. Oh if Krsna does it, then I shall do it. That is business.
Prabhupada: That is not love. Let Krsna do whatever He likes. But Krsna says no, if you do, then you are surely coming to Me. Then where is the doubt? Do sincerely whatever you are asked to do through the spiritual master, through Krsna personally, that is your... What will be the result or not result, I don't know. That is pure.
Siddha-svarupa: Actually, even in the Bible it mentions that purity in one verse. There is the statement that we would rather be away from this body and at home with the Lord. We would rather be out of this body and at and at home with the Lord, but even if we are in this body, away from the Lord or at home with the Lord, our only ambition should be to please Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is pure.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. Whereas in the previous statement there was still a tinge of desire for liberation from pain, freedom from the body, then in the next statement he says, but our only ambition should be, whether at home or, or in the body or whatever, that our only ambition should be to please Him.
Prabhupada: samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. The perfection is whether you have pleased Krsna. That is perfection. Either this body or that body, here or there, it doesn't matter. Whether Krsna is pleased. That you have to see. So if Krsna is pleased through the spiritual master, so if spiritual master is pleased, Krsna is pleased. Because he is confidential servant. If the servant says, yes this man is nice, then Krsna will accept him.
Prabhupada: You have to strictly carry out faithfully.
Prabhupada: ...the orders of Krsna and spiritual master, without any consideration.
Prabhupada: He has given you already.
Prabhupada: The gain is that now you carry out.
Prabhupada: Initiation means he has given this.
Prabhupada: Now you carry out the order.
Prabhupada: That now you have got this relationship, that's all, eternal, not eternal. Why do you bother about this, all this? I have to do. This is my duty. That's all.
Prabhupada: Goursundar, what does he know?
Prabhupada: He is a rascal. Why should discuss with Goursundar? He is a perfect man? Then why should you discuss with him? He is a rascal.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: So, what philosophy does he know? Why should you ask Goursundar? What does he know? If he has little intelligence, then you would not have given up Krsna consciousness. He has no intelligence. He is a rascal. Mudhah. That is our conclusion. Anyone who is not fully surrendered to Krsna, he is a mudhah, he is duskrtino, sinful, naradhamah, lowest of the mankind. This is our conclusion. That is the complaint of all other [indistinct]. [laughing] We are, all of them we are taking them as mudhah, rascal, naradhamah, and they are posing themselves as very big important man in their society. And because they have no Krsna consciousness, we are accepting them as mudhah. That is their concept. So they are all rejected by this Krsna consciousness movement. That is their complaint. They are trying to make a so-called mutual present society. You are welcome.
Prabhupada: But we are saying nobody is right except Krsna consciousness. So, that has become their concept. Everybody is a rascal [indistinct]. That is their concern. This, preaching goes on, then [indistinct].
Devotees: [Background exchange]
Prabhupada: Now, They are influenced by rubber tree.
Prabhupada: ...or in, in the, in the eastern world, not in the western world. Where is that? They have made a line, international?
Prabhupada: Somewhere [indistinct] you get, crossing that line you will get one day advantage. So, anyway, this is the eastern part.
Prabhupada: Up to America, mainland, it is western. This Hawaii and Japan, South Pacific, they are all eastern.
Siddha-svarupa: The, in Southeast Asia the… they are finding out that one of the main reasons the Americans wanted to stay in Vietnam was because there's the vast oil that is offshore from Vietnam. Right offshore in Vietnam there's vast oil reserves that the American oil companies had already spent, they had invested millions and millions of dollars in setting up oil rigs and they had to all leave. Not only oil, but different types of trees, and, what is the underground products, mining, different, different things that was there. That there were big companies that were involved, big American companies that were involved in trying to make [indistinct]. Even they wanted tourism. In the future, they are hoping to be able to have hotels in Vietnam, to exploit in that way.
Prabhupada: They make big, big hotels in the Philippines.
Prabhupada: Now they left.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: That means the American people in order to make money, war material, they engage their men to kill.
Siddha-svarupa: Well, the, the economy doesn't move. It's like you have to have people working, so they, they, they, they have them producing something which is consumable, and there's nothing more consumable than a bomb or a helicopter, so that they produce thousands of helicopters and bombs. Just like now, they're producing jets. Here's France, produces a particular kind of jet, and America produces a particular type of jet, and Belgium is going, needs to buy some jets, so the American producers, American companies and the French companies they are fighting, trying to convince the Belgians. There's somebody to buy our jet, and then the whole, there's a whole business trying to sell different war, war materials to all these other countries now. And they are hoping, of course the businessmen are hoping that they'll use them up and buy new ones. So, they, they, they need to have small wars.
Prabhupada: So, you have seen the, the other, big island, they are producing sugar?
Prabhupada: The same thing you have seen, in Fiji...
Prabhupada: ...they do not require. First of all produce your own food. No. They are not interested.
Prabhupada: The capitalists, they take the land. They want the business, that unnecessary. Here also they are producing pineapple more than necessary.
Prabhupada: They are wasting the land. People should be satisfied, first of all, producing his necessities, that they will produce, nothing more. Whatever they require. But if, as soon as a third party, capitalist, becomes interested, he will induce them to produce unnecessary things, and necessary things will stop.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. Actually, this is a, this is a, it's being recognized. In fact, one congress, a congressman, I read, had an article and was asking, was actually saying that the entire western way of life is in jeopardy, that it is, it is a dangerous point, because our entire economic system is based upon the, the production and consumption of unnecessary objects.
Prabhupada: That's right.
Prabhupada: Yes. And when he is induced, they offer them money, they requested that television, he shall have to pay.
Prabhupada: Expense.
Prabhupada: He doesn't require, neither he has got money, so there is advertisement, television is very good, he is induced, and the bank says yes you can take money, so he becomes perpetual debtor.
Prabhupada: So, he has to work. He cannot sit down. He has to go, so, so, so, so, so.
Prabhupada: Where is freedom?
Prabhupada: Simply exploit.
Devotee 3: It's another way of keeping the people subjugated. [break]
Devotee 3: There's a famous lady atheist, who, who makes her, who makes her business by defeating theists. She travels from place to place, and gives...
Prabhupada: Whether she will come here?
Devotee 3: I've forgotten her name.
Prabhupada: So, why, why, why not come here and stop ours?
Prabhupada: Then she will be trying for... That we are praying, so you come and stop our praying. by your reason and [indistinct].
Prabhupada: We are inviting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: But why she does not come to us, if she is traveling?
Prabhupada: Her, her challenge is about God.
Prabhupada: So, [indistinct], that somebody dares to convince that there is no God. Why not invite?
Prabhupada: What is her philosophy? She has no book?
Prabhupada: She has written any book?
Devotee 3: Her, her appearances, it becomes an art, that's all.
Devotee 2: But she uses foul language . and...
Devotee: Offensive, very offensive.
Prabhupada: So, why not defeat her? You are also philosopher.
Devotee 2: She's...
Prabhupada: You have learned so much. Defeat her.
Prabhupada: [indistinct] what education you will give.
Prabhupada: You call her. Come here. We shall talk with you.
Prabhupada: This is, this is the real business.
Prabhupada: Malati, yourself, Malati also [indistinct].
Prabhupada: Yes, she can argue very nicely. Syamasundara's wife.
Prabhupada: She is in Europe.
Prabhupada: Or Yamuna. Let, let her argue with our girl students. If the girls are defeated then the next... If they are defeated, then they can do. I think our girl, girl students will be sufficient, defeat.
Prabhupada: There, therefore our students, they, they have found life in Krsna.
Prabhupada: Your study is perfect. You are realizing the, the value of life. Now, those who have come to Krsna consciousness they have found, yes there is [indistinct].
Prabhupada: We have got typical example, God, Krsna. [break]
Siddha-svarupa: We never make the offense of saying the spiritual master is God. It is a great offense. So, we understand the spiritual master is not omnipresent like Krsna, yet, this is my understanding, nonetheless I offer my prasadam, my obeisances, every day to you no matter where I am in the world.
Prabhupada: So, while you go on serving spiritual master, then you will get...
Siddha-svarupa: But this brahmacari has heard and understood that you are omnipresent, and I have heard, from my understanding, that you are not omnipresent like Krsna. So now there's two, of course, the matter, the fact of the matter is, that we offer you our prasadam. That is the most, that's of course the important thing. You take our service, what little it is, and bring it to Krsna. [break]
Prabhupada: ...omnipresent, through [indistinct]. Krsna is omnipresent. So, the servant knows the master's [indistinct]. Master, He is omnipresent, and he is, the servant, he takes the knowledge from Him. Just like the magistrate, he judges by taking witness, so we can with Krsna. He is omnipresent, so if Krsna informs him, because he is His confidential servant, this man is doing this, so he is everywhere. He reveals [indistinct]...
Prabhupada: Not that I require personally to be omnipresent, but Krsna is omnipresent, and I am Krsna's servant, so He can inform me. That this is, this man is doing this. So therefore, conclusion is he also is omnipresent. Just like we are talking of moon and [indistinct]. I gave them proof, but I am talking on the basis of my spiritual master, my guru [indistinct]. He is talking on the basis of his guru, his guru, his guru, this is called parampara. So, ultimate guru is Krsna. So naturally if Krsna is omnipresent, the servants are also. What is the difficulty?
Prabhupada: So, this is the basic principle. Now you can answer in different ways. Krsna is omnipresent, and guru is His confidential servant. Therefore, all information comes to him by the grace of Krsna. Personally doesn't require to be omnipresent. There is no question, but because he is confidential servant of Krsna, therefore automatically he is informed everything. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. That is a fact. Did you not see that? Therefore he is as good as Krsna. He knows everything through Krsna, therefore he is as good as, but he is not as good as Krsna. This is called, inconceivable one and different.
[pause]
Prabhupada: Just another?
Prabhupada: This is the real answer. That a servant cannot be as good as the master, but the master, if he takes a servant as confidential, then he is as good as.
Prabhupada: Yes. If somebody is very confidential, I can disclose all the secrets.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee 3: No.
Prabhupada: First, [indistinct].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is the business of the disciple.
Prabhupada: You believe, you have to believe it, that spiritual master is omnipotent, then how he can defy the orders of spiritual master? That is the system.
Prabhupada: He will defy the spiritual master's order because he knows that he is not omnipotent.
Prabhupada: That he has no faith.
Prabhupada: As good as God.
Prabhupada: God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, as good as God.
Prabhupada: Not directly says he is God.
Prabhupada: As good as God.
Prabhupada: So this is duty.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Prabhupada: You read the original.
Prabhupada: The translation.
My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.
Prabhupada: ar na koriho mane asa, this is not translated.
Prabhupada: No, the previous, ar na koriho mane...
Prabhupada: No, no, before that.
Prabhupada: Hm. What is it? Read the translation.
Prabhupada: Ar, that ar na koriho is not covered. I am not, don't expect anything. ar na koriho, ar means anything else.
Prabhupada: That's all [indistinct].
Prabhupada: No wish. Simply you have to carry out the order.
Prabhupada: Salvation is also sense gratification.
Prabhupada: Salvation desirable, salvation is also sense gratification. There is some demand.
Prabhupada: That pure devotee has no demand. Only to serve. That is devotee. He has no such demand.
Prabhupada: Everyone has demand. The karmis they are seeking after comfortable condition. All these karmis they are struggling, there is demand. This life comfortable, and those who will believe in next life, then they want to go the heavenly planets. So, they have got demands.
Prabhupada: karmis, jnanis. That they want to become one, want to become one with the Supreme. That they also demand. Big demand.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. They are also trying to get released from this painful condition, karma. So, but so they try hard by doing this, doing that to become happy, when they fail, then they want to...
Prabhupada: Yes. To become one, [indistinct], foremost enjoyer. And yogis also. They want to show generally material power. There is demand to become very prominent. Oh, this yogis can [indistinct]. He can do this, he can do that. That is [indistinct] of everyone. So, everyone has got, karmis, jnanis. Only pure devotees, they are, they are simply satisfied to carry out the orders of Krsna [indistinct]. Therefore, they have no demands [indistinct]. And anyone who is wanting something predominance, materially or spiritually, they are not pure devotee. They are impure.
Prabhupada: That where is Paramahamsa.
Prabhupada: No, I cannot be important, but I want to become important by utilizing Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna, for my business is, that Krsna wants this, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65], and sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Krsna wants this, so our main business is to request people that you surrender to Krsna. Whatever Krsna says, you do it. That is our business. Krsna wants it, so we are canvassing. Not that I will become as important as Krsna. That is our business. My business is to serve. Where he is?
Prabhupada: Oh, he is eating?
Prabhupada: All right, eating, that's all right. [pause] That is pure.
Prabhupada: So I, each pure devotee does not care what is going to happen to him.
Prabhupada: Doesn't matter to him. I must carry the order of my spiritual master. That's all. This is pure. Just like I came to America. When my spiritual master asked me to do this, let me go out, I never expected that it will be so successful … never expected, because all my previous godbrothers and all the svamis, they could not do anything. Ah, so you have taken your food?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Paramahamsa: He's just finishing.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Paramahamsa: He's just finishing, prasadam.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Paramahamsa: We usually leave in a few minutes.
Prabhupada: That a, I mean to say when they ask question, I speak, you should also come. Is, is it for, only for them, not for you?
Paramahamsa: I can come, but I usually do my work during this time,...
Prabhupada: That's...
Paramahamsa: ...'cause you're, I can't type when you're taking rest, so I usually type, do all the typing this time, and we just started taking prasadam early.
Prabhupada: If you are busy that is another thing.
Paramahamsa: Yeah.
Prabhupada: If you are not busy, you should take advantage.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Paramahamsa: No, he could come.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee 2: That's nice.
Devotee: [laughs] Sometimes we are, we go. I, I think...
Prabhupada: There is no secret talk. It is all for everyone.
Prabhupada: If I don't talk, that is another thing. When I talk, hear. So, except pure devotee, everyone is sense gratification. He wants something to satisfy his senses. This is...
Prabhupada: Some way or other...
Prabhupada: ...[indistinct], everyone is trying to satisfy. That is the material disease.
Prabhupada: No, no question of better. You are never better.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Think [indistinct] like that.
Prabhupada: No, at least let me become Krsna. That the Mayavadi, they want to become one with God, and at this side they have failed to become as powerful as Krsna. Now they are thinking, by perfection I shall become as good as. That is [indistinct]. He never thinks that I cannot become so perfect that I becomes one with God. That is [indistinct]. That is Mayavadi. He is such a foolish, that if I am as good as God, then how I have become dog? But he has no sense. God never, never becomes. They, they say also that God becomes dog. Dog is God, and He is, it is His pastime. He is playing like dog.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee: If He, if He does desire to play the pastime...
Prabhupada: Whether he desires or not desires, how do you know?
Prabhupada: That is the thing. Varaha is not ordinary pig.
Prabhupada: So why you nonsensical think that Varaha is as good as a pig?
Prabhupada: This is nonsense. He is not a stool-eater pig. He looked like, Varaha, a gigantic boar, to lift this world, so why you are thinking Varaha was a pig? That is offense. Because He has assumed this form of a pig, a big boar, does it mean that He is boar?
Prabhupada: Then?
[pause] This Mayavada philosophy very dangerous. They are the first class atheist.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Paramahamsa: What is the difference between a Brahmavadi and a Mayavadi?
Paramahamsa: And the Brahma...
Prabhupada: Because, because the, actually the same thing, that brahman is impersonal. The origin, the Absolute is impersonal, but when He comes as person, He accepts a material form.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is maya.
Paramahamsa: So Brahmavadi and Mayavadi, there's no difference at all?
Prabhupada: Practically there is no difference.
Paramahamsa: Uh, what the Brahmavadi...
Paramahamsa: So the Brahmavadi is also big offender, just like the Mayavadi.
Paramahamsa: But the Mayavadis also, they think like that also.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So uh...
Prabhupada: So take it as one. What does it matter?
Paramahamsa: Well it seems like there's a different type of, there seems like there's two varieties of impersonalists. One is...
Prabhupada: What is that variety?
Paramahamsa: Oh one is a demon, practically, because he is such a...
Prabhupada: Why is actual demon?
Paramahamsa: Because he is so offensive, he is directly denying the Personality of Godhead existing.
Prabhupada: But he may not know it. He has no advancement of knowledge, so why do you call him demon?
Paramahamsa: Well usually that because Lord Caitanya says that if you even hear what they have to say, then your whole spiritual life can be ruined.
Paramahamsa: But there are some impersonalists who become great devotees.
Prabhupada: Well that is simply the same difference. The stool's upper side and lower side. That's all. If you say the upper side of the stool is very good, the lower side is not so good. So no difference.
Paramahamsa: Yeah.
Paramahamsa: The, the reason I was asking about that, because in one purport in the Gita, you say that if one has no opportunity to meet a pure devotee of the Lord and take to Krsna consciousness, then perhaps impersonal practice is better, or not better, but better than nothing.
Prabhupada: Yes. At least they are accepting spirit. Just like this Saṅkaracarya says, brahma satyam jagan mithya, they come to the platform of truth. Spirit is the truth. It is the basic principle. So permanent or nonpermanent. Material means nonpermanent. Spiritual means permanent. So that means they come to the spiritual platform. Light, just like the sunlight. That this is better than darkness, but because you are in the sunlight does not mean you are in the sun. The sun is there, so you have come to the sunlight, that it does not mean that you have reached the sun planet, or the sun god. But it is better than the darkness. To remain in darkness, that is very troublesome.
Paramahamsa: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So in comparison to the darkness, the sunlight is better.
Paramahamsa: course...
Prabhupada: That the sunlight does not mean that you are in the sun globe, or you are seeing the sun god. In this way try to understand.
Paramahamsa: But in...
Paramahamsa: But then it becomes very difficult for them to accept devotional service, if they're in that ...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: ...Mayavadi...
Prabhupada: That, that therefore they, they require the association of a devotee.
Paramahamsa: That another part, in the Caitanya-caritamrta it says that the, actually the gross materialists are better than the Mayavadis. They are more sincere than the Mayavadis.
Prabhupada: Because they sometimes defy Krsna and fall down. Therefore they fall down. They are innocent. They want bodily comfort, that's all. They do not commit any offense.
Paramahamsa: The gross materialist?
Prabhupada: Yes. They are after bodily comfort.
Paramahamsa: But the Mayavadis have opportunity?
Prabhupada: Mayavadis they are defying, that Krsna, they are thinking, I am as good as Krsna. So that is very offensive.
Prabhupada: Ah. So, even they are aware that the Krsna [indistinct] not interested, we want our car, eating. They do not commit offense. Rather they chant Krsna, 'Oh, Krsna is so powerful, that's all right.' That is also good. They are not interested in Krsna, but if they say, 'Oh, Krsna is like that', so that is good for them. But these rascals they are claiming, 'We are as good as Krsna'. That is great offense. Krsna aparadha. Purposeful. They do not know about Krsna, so therefore not so aparadha. They say, 'All right, Krsna is very good, that's a fact, but we are not interested. We are interested with our car and skyscraper buildings. You chant Hare Krsna.' And if he is good it's all right. They are not so offensive. But these rascals are claiming, 'Krsna and myself the same'.
Paramahamsa: So better if they remain gross materialists than become a Mayavadi.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore it is said the gross materialism is better than Mayavadi. They are speculator, therefore he is [indistinct]. He is a rascal. Then defy these arguments. [End]
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