Garden Conversation – June 26, 1972, Los Angeles

720626GC-Los Angeles [39:46 Minutes]

Prabhupada: ...achedyam. These are the... Achedya, can be cut into pieces. [indistinct] cannot be burned. Now the physist, chemist, they have got experience, everything burns, everything is melted; therefore it is metaphysical. What is metaphysical? What is the meaning of "meta"?

Devotee: "Under."

Prabhupada: Huh? Metaphysics.

Atreya Rsi: Is it "above"?

Prabhupada: Physics and metaphysics. What is this "meta"?

Atreya Rsi: Beyond physics.

Prabhupada: Yes. Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha-mate. Scientists, physists, philosophers, after all, they will die. So knowledge of physics and chemistry cannot save you. Therefore Sahkaracarya says bhaja govindam: "Just become devotee of Lord Krsna."

Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66]. There are many instances, great saintly persons have taken to Krsna consciousness. Lord Caitanya says, "Take to Krsna consciousness." Yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. So we should have to follow the big personalities. Why should we hesitate?

[pause] By this carriage where Tulasi-devi goes?

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Devotee (2): They take her into the temple.

Prabhupada: Within the...

Devotee (1): Into the temple? [pause]

Prabhupada: Scientists are also becoming interested. Here is a statement.

Syamasundara: Yes, he told me two scientists want to come to see you, but they can't come tomorrow night, and the next night you'll be gone.

Prabhupada: What about the other scientists who came?

Svarūpa Damodara: I didn't see them.

Devotee (1): I think American scientists would be easier to talk to.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, these are American scientists, physists.

Devotee (1): I think Americans scientists will be easier to talk to.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (1): 'Cause they don't think they know anything about Krsna.

Prabhupada: They are untouched. Our Indian, they are touched and polluted. [laughter]

Svarūpa Damodara: But most of them, most of the scientists, people in the universities and schools, they are exposed to Krsna consciousness. They have not been..., they have not direct contact with the devotees, but they have seen the devotees and so on, in most… So they ask me, "How shall I call these people? 'Hare Krsna' or…?" I say "Hare Krsna." They have seen our devotees come in the schools and campuses, chanting.

Prabhupada: Tulasi-devi's growing nicely in this park. As soon as there is sincere devotion, Tulasi will grow. In your [indistinct] wonderful, Tulasi, due to Govinda dasi's devotion. Simply for that tulasi plant I want to remain. It is so nice. They have grown anywhere else, or simply there?

Siddha-svarūpa: In the other islands we also have big. In Maui we have four that are…

Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice.

Siddha-svarūpa: …big.

Prabhupada: It will sanctify the whole place.

Atreya Rsi: How big was that?

Devotee (1): Six feet tall. Five and a half, six feet tall, five feet wide.

Prabhupada: That is in Hawaii, er, here?

Devotee (1): Maui? Hawaii.

Prabhupada: Honolulu. Honolulu.

Siddha-svarūpa: The ones in Honolulu are almost that big. Their trunks are like this big. The trunks.

Atreya Rsi: How many years?

Prabhupada: About three years. Two years, not more than that.

Siddha-svarūpa: In the beginning there was..., hard, trouble. There are so many.

Atreya Rsi: They're in the ground outside.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Syamasundara: Some madman cut them down, the big ones?

Siddha-svarūpa: He cut a few, but he couldn't kill them. He cut a few, cut some limbs. They moved out. Those neighbors have finally left. They're lucky. They almost… [break]

Prabhupada: How long you are here?

Professor Kulshrestha: I came here September, Swamiji, and...

Prabhupada: Last September?

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: What you are doing?

Professor Kulshrestha: I've come to do some research work here.

Prabhupada: Oh. [japa] Krsna is very kind He has come here.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Krsna's very kind, and you are here. You have got His blessings here.

Prabhupada: Here is Tulasi.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the sacred plant.

Prabhupada: [japa] [break] ...saba mithya. This is Bengali.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Krsna-nama... You understand Bengali?

Professor Kulshrestha: Very well, Swamiji. Very well, yes.

Prabhupada: Oh. Krsna-nama kara bhai ara saba miche, palaibara patha nai yama ache piche.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Take to Krsna, Hare Krsna mantra. Don't neglect. Anything else, that is all nonsense. This is the only essence of life. If you want to avoid it, then Yamaraja, the superintendent of death, will not excuse. Palaibara patha. What is your subject matter of research?

Professor Kulshrestha: My subject matter of research is Indians, see, their emigration from India and the assimilation in various countries, you see. And message of India, which is spreading around the world.

Prabhupada: So you are taking an interest in our…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, Swamiji. I've been here quite frequently. And I've been actually waiting for you to come. And as Lord Krsna wills, you see... Well, yesterday one of your disciples went to my place of his own, you see, and told me of it, you see? It is Lord who wished to see and who desired it to see.

Prabhupada: So you are deputed by government?

Professor Kulshrestha: No. You see, I am a retired professor from India.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Professor Kulshrestha: And on my own, you see.

Prabhupada: Government is not interested.

Professor Kulshrestha: No, no.

Prabhupada: That is the… They're assimilating this culture very nicely.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. I want to talk to you for some time on this topic, actually.

Prabhupada: You can talk now.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Professor Kulshrestha: 'Cause I have worked, you see, from 1949 to 1952. I was a professor in the University of London, you see.

Prabhupada: I see.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Then, you see, that was almost the beginning of my career. You know some [indistinct] was there in the university. And I was working in the university at the time. And…

Prabhupada: London University, when you there at that time?

Professor Kulshrestha: '49 to '52.

Prabhupada: Oh. We have got our temple near London University.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Seven Bury Place.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: London University, that is Russell district?

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Russell Street, yes. Russell Square, Russell Street.

Prabhupada: There is a Square, Bedford?

Professor Kulshrestha: Bedford Square, yes. That's right.

Prabhupada: Another Square, Boomsbury?

Syamasundara: Bloomsbury.

Professor Kulshrestha: Bloomsbury, yes.

Prabhupada: Bloomsbury. And the museum…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: The museum is just one block after.

Professor Kulshrestha: I see.

Prabhupada: Bury Place, then you must know.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So in the beginning of... What is that street?

Syamasundara: Montague Street?

Prabhupada: No, no. That main street…

Syamasundara: Oxford Street?

Prabhupada: Oxford that side. Bloomsbury…

Syamasundara: Bloomsbury Way.

Prabhupada: Bloomsbury, huh?

Syamasundara: Bloomsbury Way.

Prabhupada: Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury. From Bloomsbury, Bury Place is there on the corner, exactly on the corner in the beginning. It is a very important place.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, it is a very thick of town area. Thick of the town area.

Prabhupada: So all Indians, Englishmen, they come to our temple. Yes

Professor Kulshrestha: You have brought the wonderful message in the wonderful way, you see. Really. And what do you need is further expansion. The message should spread out.

Prabhupada: It is spreading. These boys are spreading.

Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, they're working very hard. Yes, yes, yes. They're working very hard. Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: They're all qualified.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. And I have, believe, seen some of the books now you are mentioned, but you are mentioned Hare Krsna chanters. You see? They often mention you "Hare Krsna chanters," you see, "those who are recite Hare Krsna," like that.

Prabhupada: We have published so many books. Big books.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know. No, English authors, other authors have mentioned it, you see, when they talk about American society, when they talk of those society, religions, and various groups in the society, they talk of you as Hare Krsna chanters.

Prabhupada: They say sometimes "Hare Krsna people."

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. [laughs]

Syamasundara: What do they say?

Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, all this crazy [indistinct]. Oh, it is a great message, you know. It is a great blessing, great message.

Prabhupada: Aiye.

Professor Kulshrestha: Swamiji has served, you see, mankind that way, you see.

Prabhupada: What about you? It is the message of Lord Caitanya...

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know, I know.

Prabhupada: ...He says paropakara. He says,

So actually we Indians, we have got a privilege for paropakara, for doing paropakara. We have got the privilege. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's word, that anyone who has taken birth as a human being in Bharata-varsa, he can fructify, he can make his life successful, fruitful, and do welfare activities for others.

That means those who are Indians, they have got the advantage of Vedic culture, so they should assimilate this Vedic culture in life and go outside and spread this. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. But we have neglected.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. That is what I was going to say, you see, this is message for all. And how many…

Prabhupada: People are so anxious to receive this message…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: … and our people, our government, callous. This is the misfortune.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Our leaders, they don't care.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: They say "Throw away these Vedic knowledge in the water." I have heard, lecturing.

Professor Kulshrestha: And they're having the trouble, Swamiji.

Prabhupada: They must have.

Professor Kulshrestha: They're having trouble so deep. They're having troubles.

Prabhupada: Still India's so much fallen condition, still people are hankering after India's message.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: We have received letter from Cox and Kings…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the traveling [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes. That many travelers, they're very much inquisitive to know about India's spiritual message, whether we can take care of them.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: They've written us. And they are preparing... We are constructing a temple in Vrndavana, in Mayapur, in Bombay also to receive these tourists and give them… We are giving here also the same thing.

So we are arranging, but we are not getting full support, either from government. Public, Indians, they are giving little support, but they cannot send their money. This government has got a cultural department…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: …that they'll send some dancers.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Guest: We have to pay the taxes…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: We have to pay the taxes if we belong to religious group, and we don't have to pay if we belong to the national group. There are the taxes like that.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, taxes, yes.

Guest: If you donate any money to a religion, then you have to pay taxes. But if you pay, donate any money to a national activity, then you not have to pay any taxes for that.

Professor Kulshrestha: Either for religions not national? [laughter]

Guest: Just religion is like, that because Nehru was a nonreligious person at that time. Seventeen years. He didn't believe in God.

Prabhupada: But this is not a religion; this is a culture.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness…

Professor Kulshrestha: And what is culture? Culture has the full [indistinct] aspect, and religion is the most important one.

Prabhupada: Our culture, our Vedic culture, is on religion, on God consciousness, everything. The whole social structure, political structure, philosophical structure, scientific structure, everything is aiming on Visnu. Tad visnoḥ paramam padam sada pasyanti sūraya. Visnu, God. And in the Visnu Purana it is said,

So our cultural aim, Vedic cultural aim, is tad visnoḥ paramam padam. How to satisfy Him. But they do not know about Visnu. They have forgotten Visnu. Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. Our self-interest is there in Visnu. Na te viduḥ. These foolish men, they do not know. Durasaya bahir-artha-maninaḥ. They are uselessly hoping that they will be able to adjust things by material advancement.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: That is their mistake. So-called scientists, so-called religion, that "We shall make you happy. We are discovering now new methods, new interpretation." That will not..., that will not help.

Professor Kulshrestha: The rate of those persons who are having blood pressure and such diseases, Swamiji, is rising like anything in America. Why? Because they are going away from God, you see.

Prabhupada: Anxiety.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, anxiety.

Prabhupada: Blood pressure is a disease of…?

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Just anxiety.

Prabhupada: And anxiety is the material disease.

Professor Kulshrestha: That's right.

Prabhupada: That is not new; it is always. Prahlada Maharaja explained this disease to his father.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: He asked from his son, "What you have learned, best thing, explain." So he said,

This is samudvigna, anxiety.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: So, Prahlada Maharaja said, "In my opinion," tat sadhu manye "I think that this is the best thing." What is that? That "These people who are materially entrapped, they are full of anxieties."

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: "So, for them it is better," hitva andha-kūpam..., hitvatma-patam grham andha-kūpam. Just like one is fallen in the blind well, so this so-called materialistic way of life is just like one man fallen in the blind well.

So one should give it up and take shelter of Krsna. Vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta. That is first class. So this Krsna consciousness movement is preaching people, educating people, that "You take to Krsna and everything will be solved."

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is our message.

Professor Kulshrestha: "Leave everything, come to My repose."

Prabhupada: There is no question of leaving. We cannot leave.

Professor Kulshrestha: Leave is dedicate.

Prabhupada: Dedicate, yes.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that is the meaning.

Prabhupada: That, ah, this philosophy I was explaining this morning, that we don't leave anything.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Just like Mayavadi philosophers, they are completely disinterested in material things. Brahma satyam jagan mithya. But we don't say mithya. Why should we say mithya?

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is God's creation. God is truth.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So He will create truth.

Prabhupada: So how... Pūrnasya..., pūrnat pūrnam evavasisyate .

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So it is not useless. So therefore we are utilizing everything for Krsna's purpose.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Nirbandhe krsna-sambandha [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255]. We dovetail everything in Krsna's service. That is our philosophy. We don't say this is false. This is not false. How it can be false? It may be temporary, anitya; not false. We exactly use the word anitya.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Anitya means temporary.

This body is antavata. It is to be finished, exhausted, not inexhausted. But it is not false.

Professor Kulshrestha: Swamiji, I get the feeling sometimes, after living here for so many months, that you can have a lot of money from this country, that's a fact, you see. The whole thing is you are so busy, you have got so many bases to look after, the entire universe, that sort of thing is yours…

Prabhupada: Universe is mine? Nobody cares for me. [laughs]

Professor Kulshrestha: No, obviously I was joking, Swamiji. They all remember you like anything.

Prabhupada: That is their kindness. But universe is Krsna's, and we are Krsna's servant, therefore we have right to say that it is our. [laughter] Īsavasyam…

Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem in America.

Prabhupada: No, we have no money problem. Actually we have no money problem. We are spending in all our branches about seventy hundred thousand dollars.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: That means in Indian exchange that is seven lakhs.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: And money is coming. We have no fixed income.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: We are depending on selling of the books, incense. There is no certainty. But we are maintaining. In this building we have to spend about... How many thousand dollars?

Atreya Rsi: A month, about six thousand dollars.

Prabhupada: No, more than that.

Syamasundara: Here it's ten.

Prabhupada: Ten thousand dollars. Similarly in New York. So all our branches are very expensive. So Krsna is supplying.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: This boy came to us, he contributed $38,000-whatever he had. So through somehow or other…

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: …coming. After all, money is Krsna's.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Laksmi. Laksmi is Narayana's property.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: When Narayana is there, Laksmi must be there. Because Laksmi is not unfaithful. She cannot live alone. Rather, those who are materialistic persons, they are trying to capture Laksmi without Narayana.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So it is cancala. [laughter]

Prabhupada: It is. Just like Ravana captured Laksmi.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Defied Rama, Narayana, and captured Laksmi. He thought, "I don't care for Narayana; I care for Laksmi." The result was that he became vanquished. Life, property and everything-sons, daughters, all family.

So that is going to happen. If they do not take to Krsna consciousness, then the whole world will be finished like Ravana. That's a fact. The atom bomb is there already. So they must take to Krsna consciousness; otherwise they will be finished. Their so-called science will not save.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: What science will save? There was inundation in the eastern part.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Similar things-the Pacific Ocean can finish all this California in a second. How the science can protect?

Professor Kulshrestha: Science has got more means for destruction, I believe.

Prabhupada: They can use, that's all.

Professor Kulshrestha: And what is destruction? Changing for.

Prabhupada: [sounds of lecture over loudspeaker] What is that?

Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Broadcasting it over the speakers.

Devotee (2): Right now? [laughter]

Professor Kulshrestha: Competition.

Prabhupada: Our students are now speaking.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: Some universities are… What is that? Don't stop that.

Devotee: I am just going to have to turn the speaker down here; no one can hear.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee: …[indistinct] in the temple listening. Hare Krsna? [indistinct].

Prabhupada: The other day one scientist came. What is his name?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. Doctor of science. So he was speaking very, what is called?

Syamasundara: Bombastically? [laughter]

Prabhupada: And after all, he admitted that we are controlled by the laws of nature. As laws… There must some controller of the laws of nature. That the scientists do not know. We said, "Yes, we know." That is the difference.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that's right. That's right.

Prabhupada: That is the difference. So our conclusion was that they do not know, but we know.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is the difference. Everyone will admit that he is controlled by the laws of nature. Nobody can deny it. Now as soon as we speak of laws, there must be there, somebody, law-giver.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Law cannot spring up automatically. As soon as there is law, there must be some law-giver. And that information is there in the Bhagavad-gita.

"Under My direction the laws of nature are working." In the Brahma-samhita also there is,

Durga is not working independently. She is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. So Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita mayadhyaksena: "under My superintendence." So for us it is not difficult; we accepted Krsna, and it is acting for practical purposes. Therefore, we are more than scientist.

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: They do not know who is behind these laws of nature, but we know. You may disagree; that is a different thing. But as we say "We know," it is working practically. And you do not know, neither you have any program to know, neither you can…

Professor Kulshrestha: That's right.

Prabhupada: Neither you have got the capacity to know. That is not possible. You cannot know. You are… Just like a person who is suffering from some disease, he cannot diagnose himself. He cannot find out what is the cause of the disease. He must go to a physician who is not diseased.

Even a medical man when he falls sick, he entrusts himself in the care of another physician. He does not treat himself. Therefore if you are under the clutches of maya, you cannot understand what is beyond maya. That is not possible. Maya will not allow you to understand. Just like if you want to enter in a big man's house, there are so many doorkeepers.

So you cannot go by force to see the proprietor. You have to remain under the control of the doorkeepers. They will not allow you unless you are submissive.

Maya will not allow. So this method, speculative method, to know the Supreme, will not be successful.

Professor Kulshrestha: Swami, these scientist don't know what is nature also. Ask them what is nature, and they can't tell you what is nature. They can't define nature, you see.

Prabhupada: What is..., what is their definition? Here is a scientist. Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Nature..., we also think nature is controlled by some supernatural power. Of course, there is somebody behind nature who is controlling the necessary self.

Professor Kulshrestha: No, what is nature they can't see. What is nature.

Svarūpa Damodara: Nature is the energy of the Lord.

Professor Kulshrestha: Those scientists who don't believe in God, you see. One scientist I met, to say, he asked me, "Can you give me empirical evidence of God?" I said, "You don't need one." He said, "No, I need to believe." I said, "The entire world is empirical evidence," you see? "You see a flower, you see a plant, you see a man, you see a [indistinct]. Everything is just evidence of God," you see.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Professor Kulshrestha: He said to say evidence of nature. I said "Define me nature," you see. He said he couldn't define nature, you see.

Prabhupada: Krsna is giving the chances…

[aside:] You have got the wood? You have brought the wood?

Those who cannot understand what is God, Krsna is giving them instances how one can understand God in their own ways. He said,

"I am the taste in the water."

Professor Kulshrestha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, you are scientist, you know how to create water. But the taste you cannot create. That is not possible. Now He says that prabhasmi sasi-sūryayoḥ: "I am the light of the sun…" [end]