Tamala Krsna: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So, what do you think?

Tamala Krsna: I haven't had an opportunity yet to speak with Bhakti-caru, so it was not possible for me to understand the conversation that transpired.

Prabhupada: No. My...

Tamala Krsna: I like him. He has fine features. He's thoughtful. Nice voice. I mean these kavirajas... The real point is how in this age, how deeply they understand kaviraji medicine, that I can't say. But from general point of view, comparison of doctors, they're the best. They're...

Upendra: More sensitive.

Tamala Krsna: They're the most devotional and refined people of the doctors. How much they know kaviraji, that I cannot say. But he's not a bogus man.

Prabhupada: Visvambhara? (Bengali)

Bhagatji: If actually comes here in and it is done, there will be systematic treatment according to the physicians (Bengali).

Tamala Krsna: What was that?

Bhagatji: If it is kidney troublethey are doubtful whether it is kidney trouble or lungs trouble. If it is a kidney trouble, they cannot come so fine. So they are about the appetite also. They say appetite must increase, then they will treat in the same way.

Tamala Krsna: What about the urine?

Bhagatji: Urine today is very good. No pus, no blood.

Tamala Krsna: But it's been like that for seven months.

Bhagatji: So I'll take it tomorrow again...

Tamala Krsna: No. What I'm saying is that the urine has always been yellow.

Bhagatji: But that is the thing, that why sometimes pus and blood and comes out of urine?

Tamala Krsna: Only for two or three days.

Bhagatji: Why is it? They have to test it. They have to find out. That is the reason of all this.

Tamala Krsna: No, but all along, all of the doctors say it is a kidney trouble. All of the doctors, allopathic and kaviraji agree kidneys are defective. And the surgeon in London, he also said so. Even when the urine was normal, still they said the kidneys were not in order. Just because the urine is yellow doesn't mean kidneys are functioning properly. That is not the only sign. They all agree that the kidneys are not properly functioning. I don't know why this doctor says no. Just because the urine became brown and then it became yellow doesn't mean it was not functioning, now they are functioning. At least not according to the other doctors. This doctor is guessing. That I can clearly see. He is guessing.

Bhagatji: No. Doctor also said that there should be an x-ray. But Prabhupada will oppose.(?)

Tamala Krsna: I'm saying their actual science at this point...

Bhagatji: That may be, sir.

Tamala Krsna: And he gave prescription for medicine, according to Svarupa Damodara and Adi-kesava Maharaja who know that medicine, which is very strong medicine and is anti-tubercular medicine. But he doesn't know whether Prabhupada has that tuberculosis. He is guessing, and he had already prescribed a medicine which is very strong. So that... There shouldn't be any guessing. We can't experiment with Prabhupada.

Bhagatji: No, x-ray, x-ray...

Tamala Krsna: X-ray is different. That's different.

Bhagatji: I'm talking about x-ray.

Tamala Krsna: But the medicine he prescribed was a very strong medicine.

Bhagatji: And very little quantity or more(?) quantity.

Tamala Krsna: Whatever the quantity, it was very strong medicine. Prabhupada hasn't gotten it yet.

Hamsaduta: Svarupa explained that these doctors generally don't know the composition of these medicines. In other words, they don't know exactly what the ingredients are and what the side effects are. He was explaining that that one medicine which Svarupa himself took for a year, he said it causes dizziness, one medicine that doctor prescribed.

Tamala Krsna: X-rays...The thing is this, to take an x-ray is not bad. But after x-ray then what is the next program? Just like you were mentioning the man is the head of the tuberculosis sanatorium. So supposing he takes an x-ray...

Bhagatji: No, he'll not take the x-ray.

Tamala Krsna: But supposing an x-ray, then... Supposing there appears to be something which they suspect. Then what will they do?

Bhagatji: They will treat for that.

Tamala Krsna: How do they treat?

Hamsaduta: They'll want to operate.

Tamala Krsna: First of all they either operate or they take you to their sanatorium.

Bhagatji: No, he will not take.

Tamala Krsna: Then?

Bhagatji: And x-ray can come here.

Tamala Krsna: Not for x-ray.

Bhagatji: No, medicine also can be, they can make it also they will treat both the trouble(?) and the trouble.

Tamala Krsna: We had a big discussion, so many devotees. And everybody related all of the different discussions regarding these allopathic doctors, how they are speculating. I mean factually the man came for one week, and you can see that he got nothing accomplished.

Bhagatji: What do you mean?

Tamala Krsna: I mean to say there is no change after his week's treatment. He himself is puzzled. Dr. Gopal is puzzled. He can't figure out what is wrong. He's saying, "Now let us take x-ray." He knows Prabhupada won't give in to a blood test. So he's saying "Now let us take x-ray. Perhaps it is something in the lung." Now Prabhupada's lungs have been the same for the last week. For one week the lungs have been the same. But he never mentioned anything about lungs until today. I mean now... He was thinking his kidneys. But we gave his kidney medicine and still it didn't change his appetite. So now he's thinking, "Perhaps it's the lungs." This is speculation. "It's not this, then maybe it's this. It's not this, then maybe it's this. It's not this..." In other words, this is not science.

Hamsaduta: That's their treatment.

Tamala Krsna: This is not science. This is speculation. It is not scientific. He's puzzled.

Bhagatji: And what is scientific? (?)

Tamala Krsna: Scientific mean just like Ayurvedic should be scientific. Should be. I don't say they are, because they're not so expert, some of these vaidyas. But Ayurvedic is like this. You take the pulse, and according to what the pulse is, then you can ask the patient, "You must be feeling like this, like this, like this," and the patient says, "Yes, yes, yes." Then you go into Vedas and you read, "This is to be done, this is to be given, this is to be given." Then you go to the patient and you give this, this and this, and the patient takes it and he gets better. That's science. It's sure. It's not, "Well, maybe it's like this, maybe like that, maybe if you take this, this..." That's not science. He's guessing. So Prabhupada is not very confident of that kind of treating. The fact is he was puzzled, Dr. Gopal.

Bhagatji: So should we look for some good Ayurved physician?

Tamala Krsna: Well, Prabhupada had a dream this morning, and in this dream, he saw one ramanuja-vaidya preparing this makara-dhvaja medicine. So Prabhupada's dreams are transcendental. So that means Krsna has given some idea how to get Prabhupada treated. So we called one ramanuja here tonight. I don't know what the discussion was. I couldn't follow the meaning. But in any case, Prabhupada gave us an opportunity to try this allopathic medicine. He was never in favor of allopathic medicine, but all of his disciples were in favor to let us try it. So Prabhupada subjected himself to our treatment. And factually you saw he was vomiting, dizzy, and losing sleep. Then yesterday we didn't give any medicine, and he was much better off. You heard how he was speaking strongly. So we already got indication. Finally we spoke with Srila Prabhupada that "We want you to direct us." So Prabhupada said, "So you are ready to follow whatever I direct?" So we said, "Yes." He said, "Then no more allopathic. It is finished." We're trying allopathic from our side, but it didn't work. Factually it didn't work. This Dr. Gopal promised in four day he will sit up. And Dr. Ghosh, afterwards he told me, "That is rubbish." He said, "How could he... He wants to gain the confidence of the patient." But this kind of promising, it's childish to say like that. Anybody could know Prabhupada was not going to sit up in four days. Dr. Ghosh is a very competent, confident doctor, there's no doubt. But that whole science of Western medicine is very speculative. It's guessing work. Anyway, so many devotees were telling their stories. I told that my father, a half a year ago, he had arthritis of the hip, so they put a new hip. Then it came on this side, they gave a new hip here. Then eight weeks he was in the hospital. They said, "Now you're better. Let's get you up and you can walk." After eight weeks, so many operations. They stood him up and immediately he had heart attack and died. They're so expert that that's how they killed him. Then we know one devotee, he is in New York temple, he was a nurse, head nurse assisting one of the biggest surgeons who was operating on the presidents. She said that during the operation they would joke with each other. One day one man came in and complained, "I have a pain in my side." They took x-ray and found that during the operation they had left a scissors inside. These are the mentalities of these people. The whole science is very...

Hamsaduta: Dubious.

Tamala Krsna: Doubtful. Dubious. So Prabhupada has more faith... Another thing, kaviraji medicine is not dangerous. Whereas these men, you can see how many side effects they have, these Western medicines. Prabhupada becomes dizzy, he cannot sleep, he vomits. And as soon as we agree to x-ray, x-ray is only the first step, then there'll be more and more and more. When you call in a doctor it means you are ready to take his treatment. When you ask for an x-ray it means that after the x-ray you're ready to accept whatever they advise. Otherwise why do you call for x-ray? That's the whole point. So the real issue we have to decide is whether Prabhupada wants to take the allopathic medicine or not. If he says, "I don't want allopathic medicine," what is the use of taking x-ray? Because the kavirajas don't care for x-rays. They say that simply by pulse they can see everything. Just like this man, he took the pulse and immediately he reached for the kidneys. We did not tell him anything, but he took the pulse and immediately he reached for the kidneys and the stomach. And he said, "Kidneys are completely malfunctioning, and the fire of digestion is nearly extinguished." I think that's a very practical statement if you think about it. Prabhupada, he's passing urine, he can pass stool, but what is the real problem, the biggest problem? There's no taste, no appetite. And that you have to admit, he has no idea how to get appetite, Dr. Gopal. He has no idea. He's thinking this and this. He doesn't even understand there's a fire of digestion. Where does it mention that Krsna is sitting as the fire of digestion in the stomach? Where does it say that in the allopathic books? (laughs) It doesn't. But Prabhupada has said it from the very beginning: "I have no digestion." So the question is how to wake up that fire. And they can't do this, these allopathic doctors. Maybe the kavirajas can do it.

Bhagatji: So there is one Vedic kaviraja in Mathura. Should I bring him?

Tamala Krsna: Well I don't know. First of all there's now already two kavirajas involved. Maybe we should first let this ramanuji do his work.

Bhagatji: Today, he came today.

Tamala Krsna: He's a kaviraja. Oh, yeah. And Vanamali is coming tomorrow. So I think before you call a third man...

Prabhupada: No, Vanamali is no use.

Tamala Krsna: No use. Don't even bother calling him. The only question is that we have given him such expensive ingredients to make that medicine. The musk is worth many hundreds of rupees. Gold and pearls. So the real question in our minds is if this medicine is genuine. We want to know whether the medicine he has prepared is genuine or not.

Prabhupada: He said it is not.

Tamala Krsna: One thing is that Bhakti-caru should have... When we gave these ingredients... It's just like when you mentioned about the ring. When you give the stone, in front of you it must be made. So with such valuable ingredients... In any case we can find out if it is genuine or not. But if it is not genuine, then the man... Bhakti-caru?

Devotee: This kaviraja mentioned that you get it tested in front of you. I want to make here. He said that "I don't want to make here." This kaviraja said makara-dhvaja.

Tamala Krsna: My only interest in Vanamali is if by some chance he has done some trick, that I want to find out. Because then I want back the ingredients or the money. That's my only interest. Because we've given him very valuable ingredients.

Devotee: I myself gave the golden powder.

Tamala Krsna: So this kaviraja said it's not makara-dhvaja.

Devotee: He said it's not.

Tamala Krsna: This Ramanuja. He looked at it, he said, "This is not makara-dhvaja." Now let us wait. There may be some confusion over the name or something, Srila Prabhupada. I'm not jumping to conclusion yet. But my interest in Vanamali in only that since we gave these valuable ingredients, I want to know that what he gave us is the same thing. I'm not saying that he has played any tricks. Better that we should be patient and check carefully everything. There's no reason to jump to any conclusion yet. It may be that the name he has given is a different name.

Prabhupada: Then why he did not come?

Tamala Krsna: I also was wondering. Did anyone ask Bhakti-caru? Cause I didn't... I couldn't speak to him. He left just now to take the...

Devotee: You called him?

Tamala Krsna: We wanted Vanamali to come, but for some reason he didn't come. So these things have to be looked into, and we'll do that. Anyway, I think that this is very important that you had this dream, Srila Prabhupada. And your dreams are not ordinary in any way. They're definitely Krsna's directing, so I'm sure that there's a significance to the dream. We should follow it through.

Prabhupada: Where is Bhakti-caru?

Tamala Krsna: He's taking the ramanuja-vaidya back.

Devotee: He's from Vrndavana?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. I think from Sri Rangam temple. I haven't talked with him yet. He left very quickly. Srila Prabhupada? One good news, the fixed deposit receipts have been transferred finally. We got them back now endorsed from the head office, so they are officially now with the Parliament Street office. That was Giriraja's very good work. He said he would do this, I remember, and he did it.

Prabhupada: What is the amount?

Tamala Krsna: Total amount? Total amount is ten lakhs, sixty thousand. It's now transferred. I have the receipts locked as before. And they're duly endorsed.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: They're endorsed to the head office, Parliament Street, Delhi.

Prabhupada: Now what you have got?

Tamala Krsna: The fixed deposit slips. The actual receipts. See, but they've been stamped now. They've been handed over. We handed them over to this office here. We did everything according to letters and everything, and this office here in Vrndavana sent them by registered post to the head office. The head office got them, stamped them, and Giriraja went today to Delhi, collected them with Hari-sauri, and then Giriraja went to Bombay and Hari-sauri brought the receipts back. I took them and locked them away. Same receipts, simply stamped now with the head office stamp, entered in their accounts. So now the fixed deposits are officially held. We have them, but I mean to say they are with the Parliament Street Punjab Bank. Not Vrndavana branch.

Prabhupada: So, they have issued any covering letter?

Tamala Krsna: More or less a covering letter. I mean we have certain correspondence, but on the receipt itself it says transferred... The whole thing is done pakka. When we gave the receipts to Vrndavana branch they signed that they received them. When we gave the letter to the head office originally telling them what we wanted to do, they gave us back in writing, "Take the receipts, give them to the Vrndavana branch. They will be transferred, then you will collect them in Delhi." Everything is in writing, documented.

Prabhupada: And no new receipt issued?

Tamala Krsna: No. Not a new receipt issued. We wanted a new receipt, but they did not issue a new receipt. I was expecting to get a new receipt, but they didn't give. They simply noted on these receipts.

Prabhupada: Do you think that is sufficient?

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes, definitely.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Tamala Krsna: I can find the... See, I didn't get to speak with Giriraja, 'cause he's gone to Bombay. He was quite eager to return to Bombay. He's been gone for awhile. So we were expecting to get new receipts. But anyway, these receipts will do. They have a new branch number marked on them, they have the stamp of the New Delhi bank stamped on them. They have the stamp, rubberstamp of the New Delhi Parliament office stamped onto the receipts now.

Devotee: And there are the signatures of the...

Tamala Krsna: This manager signed, and I believed the Parliament Street man... I mean they're very...I can check, but they're very... It's done properly. Giriraja doesn't get tricked. They're not trying to cheat us. They transferred Gupta.

Devotee: By telegram, yesterday. They transferred by telegram.

Tamala Krsna: Where is he?

Devotee: In Agra.

Tamala Krsna: See, Gupta has been transferred to Agra now. He's no longer with this bank.

Devotee: He said "By your negligence we have lost ten or eleven lakh of rupees."

Tamala Krsna: The head office is very angry.

Devotee: Very angry. That man was telling yesterday.

Tamala Krsna: Who was telling?

Devotee: One of the clerks in...

Tamala Krsna: The head office man, when he came here he became so much upset to see how they have been given a big room and instead they have made a little cubicle. There's no waiting seats for any people who come in. There's no facilities. He said this has never seen such a thing in the history of Punjab Bank, that such good clients have been dealt with like this. And he said, "I will bring a new manager, a new man here and I will completely redecorate this whole room" that we've given them. He said, "You will not have any complaints." Giriraja requested, "You must send a younger man who's trained in Delhi at the head office. We don't want one of these people who cannot speak English, who cannot deal with international customers." And we gave a whole list of complaints.

Tamala Krsna: He said he'll send him this coming week. We are expecting. He's coming again. He said, "When I come next time you will have no more complaints."

Devotee: This man.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, he is the same caliber. No, they are sending a different man. He is here only until the new man comes. So in... They realize at the head office that to them this ten lakhs is nothing, because they think that we can give much more. So there's no question of them thinking how to steal this money. They want more business. Ten lakhs is nothing. Another thing is that we have amongst our life members, some of them are former... Two of our members in Delhi were formerly the chairman of the Punjab Bank and the second man in charge of Punjab Bank. So our connections are so strong that no one could ever do anything. Tejiyas is very intimate with those members. When Giriraja went to Delhi to begin this, the first person he met was one of the former chairmen who happens to be our member. Giriraja took instruction. The man said, "You'll do like this, you do like...," you know. No one could... A man who's a former chairman is also still very powerful and respected. So no chairman or anyone will play any tricks. It's very good that this was done. Now they understand that they cannot deal with us with harassment tactics. Anyway, the real benefit will come when the new man comes here locally. Then we can start to deal properly. Until then it will always be difficult, because they are so...

Prabhupada: Now who is...?

Tamala Krsna: This Trivedi. He is very bad also.

Devotee: He's worse than Gupta.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, he's worse. I mean the whole group of them is worse. There's a whole clique of them. The real thing that was happening is that without the knowledge of the head office they were doing so many things here locally. When it became known to the head office, then the head office became very angry. I can now understand that they had a whole plan in mind. They had it very planned, what they were doing. The plan in my opinion was that they felt here is a sannyasi, old sadhu, and he has many foreign disciples...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: They were planning, in my... I talked with Giriraja about this. They were thinking "Here is an old sannyasi, Prabhupada. He has many foreign disciples, he has money. Let us get the money in fixed deposit. Then if he should pass away, then somehow by trick the money will be kept here and we'll never let them take it out." That was their plan. Therefore whenever Prabhupada suggested that Gurukrpa would sign, co-sign, "No, no," they would never allow. Their plan is that Prabhupada would pass away, and all the foreigners would be there, and they'd never let them take it. When I showed them this power of attorney, they had a great shock. They were shocked how this had happened to them. I think this was their plan. Very deceiving type of people. Because they are here in Vrndavana. All their money is from fixed deposits from asramas. So they know how to do this business of keeping the money. Now everything is clear. The money is there in Delhi. The Delhi office is not like that. They're businesslike. And we can keep dealing them, but on regular accounts. None of these fixed deposits. Not now. They "Now you must gain their confidence again." We told them, "We have nothing against you. But you deal properly, then again we'll deposit. But deal properly in a businesslike way." We have nothing against them. Punjab Bank is a good bank. Anyway, it's settled now, Srila Prabhupada. It's finished. I wanted you to know that it's been successfully completed due to Giriraja's good efforts. Giriraja went to Bombay. His parents went with him.

Prabhupada: You said this Trivedi is worse than him?

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Devotee: Prabhupada, I've seen his treatment. He's the...

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Tamala Krsna: He says that he is very rough, this Trivedi. He'll be taken away. This is just temporary. Immediately they got rid of Gupta because they knew that we were very much dissatisfied. And Trivedi is just a temporary replacement for Gupta. As soon as the man is sent from Delhi, then this Trivedi will be taken away.

Prabhupada: So they're going to send a ma...

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Oh, yes. They said that they'd be sending him this coming week. I mean they're quite serious about this. The fact that they have transferred Gupta within twenty-four hours shows that they're quite serious in wanting to please us. The man said it: "We want to please you."

Prabhupada: Huh? Dugal. What about him?

Tamala Krsna: He's a rogue. I said it from the beginning, he's a rogue. Anyway, they couldn't throw the manager out. They had to throw the... That would have been a disgrace. They couldn't do that. This Dugal was president formerly of Hrishikesh for twenty-five years. I mean, how is that to deal with... (talking softly to someone else) Srila Prabhupada, you haven't had anything to drink for awhile. Would you like something? It's been quite awhile since you last took. Upendra is here. He could make something for you.

Prabhupada: Fruit juice?

Tamala Krsna: Fruit juice? Yes. What kind do you have, Upendra, that you could make? Some grape juice? Or do you have that pomegranate? Would you like some pomegranate, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: I did not like that.

Tamala Krsna: It's bitter.

Upendra: That's because they mixed it with honey.

Tamala Krsna: They made it with honey, Srila Prabhupada, instead of misri-jala. What kind would you like to have?

Prabhupada: That other fruit?

Tamala Krsna: Sweet lemons? Do you find that you have a good result with drinking that kind of juice at night? You don't have any reaction in any way? Causing mucus or something? It's okay?

Devotee: We could make an ice cream shake.

Tamala Krsna: So Upendra will make it? All of the devotees are very excited about your travel plans, Srila Prabhupada. (laughter) Maybe Bhagatji will come also.

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) He likes the Mayapura.

Tamala Krsna: Bhagatji had not heard yet, Srila Prabhupada. Bhagatji had not been informed yet of your traveling plans.

Prabhupada: No, you are proposing. (Bhagatji and Tamala Krsna discuss quietly)

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: We're just discussing your traveling. Because it is cold in the wintertime.

Bhagatji: (indistinct)

Tamala Krsna: There's another reason though. The main thing is that this room, the rooms in this house don't have so much ventilation like Mayapura does. Very good. Prabhupada is always laying in one room, if he gets air then it's good. Passing air, you know, ventilation. He's been in the same room now for a long time. Change of place is nice. Plus all of the things are grown fresh there, so Prabhupada might get some appetite. Very nice vegetables grown there, fresh. Anyway, he's thinking about it. He said you will come with him. Prabhupada quoted that verse. You were quoting that verse that Mayapura and Vrndavana are..., are the same. Gauda-mandala-bhumi? What is that verse?

Prabhupada: Gauda-mandala-bhumi jeba jane cintamani tara hoy braja-bhumi bas.

Tamala Krsna: You want a little brahmi oil, Srila Prabhupada, on your head? Will it relax you a little?

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Once one man asked why Krsna Himself comes in India only? Why not American countries?

Prabhupada: What did you answer?

Bhagatji: I heard the answer forty years back, Prabhupada, from one professor. He brought the map of the world, and he showed the India position. Like this. That suppose one is sick. Someone has some cut. Then he's a very good man, and he sends the information to the hospital. He said "It is a small cut. Let me send my compounder(?)." The compounder(?) goes and makes a powder(?). And sometimes he has got... Then he says "Let go." Then a big, more serious disease he sends. And suppose he gets heart attack, so then himself goes, because it is a very serious disease. So he got the world map, and he showed that India is the heart of the world. So Krsna comes Himself. And U.P. is the heart of India. (laughs)

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes Krsna comes to Bengal. (laughter)

Bhagatji: But in a devotee form.

Prabhupada: Just like government has got a house. So when the governor comes, he comes in that house. Similarly India is the bhumi, and whenever incarnation of God or God Himself comes... [break] ...discussion.

Svarupa Damodara: We didn't discuss last night, but it was agreed that it was a good idea. In about three weeks it's cooler here. In Mayapura there is nice weather. (indistinct) (end)