Room Conversation

June 18, 1977, Vrndavana
Yasodanandana: ...pattern of the Bhagavatam and follow the description. In the Chapter Sixteen, where it is expressed that "Bhu-mandala extends as far as the sun spreads its light and heat and as far as the moon and all the stars can be seen," that was the first verse. Then it describes that "The roving wheels of Maharaja Priyavrata's chariot created seven ditches in which the seven oceans came into existence. Because of these seven oceans, which are described here..."
Tamala Krsna: This was done before we began by another artist.
Yasodanandana: This is the Jambudvipa planetary system. The complete is the Bhu-mandala. This is Jambudvipa. This is the salt ocean, and these various oceans here, they correspond to the oceans which are described in the Bhagavatam in that Chapter Five, Sixteenth Chapter, second verse. "Because of these seven oceans, Bhu-mandala is divided into seven islands." Then, in the third verse, it describes that this universe is the universal form of the Lord. The fourth verse describes... Sukadeva Gosvami says he will explain the Bhurloka. In the fifth verse he starts to be more precise about the Bhu-mandala planetary system. It says, "It resembles a lotus flower." It has the shape of a lotus flower. "And the seven islands of Jambudvipa resemble the whorl of that flower." Then "The length and breadth of that island known as Jambudvipa..."
Tamala Krsna: This we did.
Yasodanandana: This one. "...which is situated in middle..." This Jambudvipa corresponds to this one here in this big map. "The length and breadth of this is 100,000 yojanas." That means from its north to the south and from the west to the east it's 800,000 miles, according to this fifth verse.
Tamala Krsna: So our map here, Srila Prabhupada, one centimeter equals 2,000 yojanas. So this is fifty centimeters, so it equals 100,000 yojanas. It also... For anyone who is counting, four of these boxes equal one centimeter. So simply by counting this, one can understand how many yojanas each thing... This is exactly to scale. It's done very precisely to scale.
Yasodanandana: And it describes, "In Jambudvipa there are nine divisions of land, each with a length of 9,000 yojanas, 72,000 miles: Bharata-varsa, Kimpurusa-varsa, Hari-varsa, Bhadra-varsa, Ilavrta-varsa, Ketumala-varsa, Ramyaka-varsa, Hiranmaya-varsa, and Kuru-varsa. There are eight mountains that mark the boundaries of these divisions and separate them nicely. Starting with the Himalayas"that's the first mountain"Hemakuta Parvata"second mountain"Nisadha Parvata"third mountainit goes... This... "Gandhamadana Parvata, which is the east side of Sumeru, and then Malyavan Mountain on the west side..."
Bhakti-prema(?): Nila mountain, north; Sveta mountain, next; and Srngavan Mountain, north.
Yasodanandana: Maybe you can explain that Sanskrit purport also?
Bhakti-prema: (Sanskrit) It is bow-shaped. Bharata-varsa is bow-shaped, and this Bhadra-varsa is again bow-shaped, Kuru-varsa, again bow-shaped, and this Ketumala-varsa, again... So they were shaped. (Sanskrit) That means thirty-four yojanas...
Prabhupada: Thousand yojanas.
Bhakti-prema: ...square. Thirty-four thousand yojanas in..., in this. This is Kimpurusa-varsa. That is between Himalaya and Hemakuta mountain. And again Hari-varsa is between Hemakuta Mountain and Nisadha Mountain. And this Ramyaka...
Prabhupada: Where is geographical description of this?
Tamala Krsna: They don't even know they exist.
Prabhupada: Little description of the Himalayas.
Tamala Krsna: That's all.
Prabhupada: That is also not sufficient. In Europe, when we go over the mountain, huge mountainous tract, who knows about it? We are passing just like on a roof, aeroplane. You have seen? Huge. They have no information of what is there. And Switzerland...
Tamala Krsna: Switzerland.
Prabhupada: I have seen mountain goat. Where it has gone, nobody knows. Still.
Bhakti-prema: In Srimad-Bhagavatam it is described more or less. Himalaya Mountain is 80,000 miles high and 16,000 miles wide. So each of these mountains are 16,000 miles wide and 80,000 miles high. And that means it is start from Badrinath up to Siberia. That is 60,000 miles, er, 16,000.
Prabhupada: But height, they have no...
Bhakti-prema: 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupada: 80,000.
Bhakti-prema: We cannot measure. Aeroplane cannot...
Prabhupada: You have measured only 28,000.
Tamala Krsna: Feet.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasodanandana: Feet.
Prabhupada: It is feet only.
Yasodanandana: That is only three and a half yojanas, and we say it is 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupada: Read something.
Bhakti-prema: And they can travel only 800 miles high, the birds in the sky, but according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, after 800 miles there is air to breath for a human being. But there is air for ghost and pisaca and other different species. But if we move... There are Siddhas and Caranas. They are also living there. And above that, there is Rahu planet. That means 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupada: That means Rahu planet we have connection.
Bhakti-prema: Yes. Rahu. And above that Rahu there is sun planet, and Sumeru mountain has connection with that because it is hurling again...
Yasodanandana: It says right here.
Prabhupada: Do it nicely.
Yasodanandana: It is mentioned that this Sumeru Parvata, the mountain's height is the same as the width of Jambudvipa. So this mountain comes up to here, the same distance as this, 100,000 yojanas. So it's perfectly... This is the same length on this side and also like this. It's made like a big, a big cone on top. It describes, "Of that mountain, Sumeru Parvata, 16,000 yojanas, or 128,000 miles, are within, under." So Sumeru is like this, and it also goes under the Jambudvipa planetary system. And therefore the mountain's head above the earth, above here, there is 84,000 yojanas, 672,000 miles above the level. And the mountain's width, the mountain on top, is considered to be 32,000 yojanas, or 256,000 miles. And in the bottom it's 16,000 yojanas. Scientists cannot conceive of this. Their estimation of a mountain is that it must be bigger in the bottom and end up smaller at the top, but Mount Meru is twice as big in the top than it is in the bottom. They cannot understand. Next verse, it describes the different divisions. "Just north of Ilavrta-varsa and going further northward, one after another, are three mountains, namely Nila Mountain, Sveta Mountain, and Srngavan Mountain. These mark the borders of the three varsas, namely Ramyaka, Hiranmaya, and Kuru, and separate them from one another. The width of these mountains is..."
Prabhupada: And it was not possible for me to digest. (laughs) Somebody else helped me to... I am a layman. I do not know.
Tamala Krsna: How did you write it?
Prabhupada: That somebody, Krsna, helped me. That He manufactured.
Yasodanandana: And these mountains, they extend to the beaches. "It is considered, according to the Bhaga..."
Prabhupada: When I was writing, I was praying Krsna that "I do not actually accommodate all this knowledge. Please help me." Yes. That's all right.
Bhakti-prema: It is mentioned that all other worlds are there only in Treta-yuga all the time. No Kali-yuga, simply Treta and Dvapara. Only the Treta-yuga is all the time.
Prabhupada: Oh. Yajato makhaih.
Prabhupada: They are always engaged in ritualistic sacrifices. How present life... Tretayam yajato makhaih.
Bhakti-prema: So they lived for ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Ten, they are...
Bhakti-prema: Thousand years.
Prabhupada: Ten thousand years. Our six months equal to their one day.
Bhakti-prema: That is called demigod.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are demigod.
Bhakti-prema: No, they are not demigod.
Prabhupada: No, they are not demigod.
Yasodanandana: Then it prescribes in verse number nine that "South of Ilavrta-varsa and extending from east to west are the great, three great mountains named Nisadha Parvata, Hemakuta Parvata and Himalaya. Each of them is 10,000 yojanas high, 80,000 miles high." That means... The scientists have understood that the Himalayas are three and a half miles high, but we say... How much the Himalayas? Twenty-eight... Five and a half miles high. We say it's 80,000 miles high. The Bhagavatam says.
Prabhupada: They could not measure the whole thing. That is not possible.
Yasodanandana: Then it describes here that "On the west and east of Ilavrta-varsa are two great mountains named Malyavan and Gandhamadana respectively. These two mountains, which are 2,000 yojanas, 16,000 miles..." [break] "...in the north and Nisadha mountain in the south. They indicate the borders of Ilavrta-varsa and also the varsas named as Ketumala-varsa and Bhadrasva-varsa." Then it gets into more details regarding Mount Meru. "Text number eleven. On the four sides of the great mountain known as Sumeru are four mountains," these Mandara Parvata. This is the mountain.
Prabhupada: So how you'll show actually?
Bhakti-prema: This is according to Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: No, that's all right. Now, that doll, that you have to make.
Yasodanandana: We are calling one artist from Mayapura. Tamala Krsna Maharaja has arranged to bring one artist, so we're going to draw perspectives. We're going to draw this and all... [break]
Prabhupada: We have some artist. We have... That's all. That is perfect.
Bhakti-prema: It is also repeated in Upanisads, iti susruma dhiranam.(?)
Prabhupada: This...
Bhakti-prema: From the intelligence...
Yasodanandana: This knowledge will actually destroy their misconceptions, 'cause most people think that previously, to five thousand years ago, people used to be barbarians. But if they were barbarians and they knew the whole description of the universe, they must have been very advanced.
Bhakti-prema: This is Lokaloka Mountain. We're drawing that.
Tamala Krsna: We're simply following your Bhagavatam description, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Not that... Iti susru... [break]
Bhakti-prema: Except this Kimpurusa-varsa and other varsas in the mountain area, these are part of subtle world. So how we will mention it?
Prabhupada: Mention by picture.
Bhakti-prema: So how we will expose it before scientists?
Prabhupada: We do not require to satisfy the scientists. We have to describe according to our book. That's all. If they can understand, let them understand. Otherwise... It is not our business to satisfy the so-called scientists. We are giving the real description. [break] That Sokimala.(?) [break] (indistinct)
Upendra: Not like that, no. There have been some clouds.
Prabhupada: Something in the sea turns right, and the whole thing becomes (indistinct). [break]
Tamala Krsna: ...the original Lanka. Ceylon, of course, is there, but it is not Lanka.
Prabhupada: Ceylon is different.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Who knows what else we will discover today. These things... When we are actually...
Prabhupada: The Andaman, Nicobar Islands...
Tamala Krsna: What did you say, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: There are other islands.
Prabhupada: Andaman, Nicobar, like that.
Tamala Krsna: Oh. But we're not... Bhakti-prema Maharaja said that yesterday he was going to look through the commentaries to try and understand which these referred to in present-day geography. He wasn't certain about. He only knew that one was...
Prabhupada: There are nearby islands. I don't know whether it is... Andaman, Nicobar Islands. So those islands similarly from India were sent. Now it is inhabited. [break] ...work is stopped on account of your (indistinct)?
Tamala Krsna: No. [break] No, I mean in terms of our drawings and things, will we be... Will you be staying here for a little while still, in Vrndavana?
Prabhupada: Why not?
Tamala Krsna: I mean, you have no... I'm just trying to think in terms of pacing ourselves, what the schedule...
Prabhupada: No, we can stay here unless business is finished. There is no other engagement.
Tamala Krsna: No. The only other engagement is the opening of Bombay temple coming up. But that's not until the end of October.
Prabhupada: So time is up? Not yet.
Tamala Krsna: Well, any time... [break] Did you get a little rest? The sun wasn't disturbing? [break] Always you came out victorious. Always. I have never seen you ever defeated. In Bombay it was absolutely impossible. It seemed to be impossible.
Prabhupada: Nobody encouraged.
Prabhupada: Nobody, not a single man. Who could see that a big project would come out?
Tamala Krsna: Only you could see that, you and Radha-Rasa-vihari. I was...
Prabhupada: Nobody... Still, I was determined: "No, this place is very nice."
Tamala Krsna: They should write a book about that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is worth writing, history book. Mayapura also. Madhava Maharaja will not allow, allow.
Tamala Krsna: So many tricks he played through that...
Prabhupada: Similarly Tirtha Maharaja was no wanted me to... Here also there is one ring.
Tamala Krsna: Right.
Prabhupada: This girl had to introduce line(?).
Tamala Krsna: And she didn't give the front piece. At first, she didn't give...
Prabhupada: Didn't give.
Tamala Krsna: Now she has given, but at first... But still, you said, "Build a wall." Hyderabad also there was a little dispute. Everything was a struggle. [break] Our temple is the bestin Mayapura, Vrndavana, Hyderabad, Bombay.
Satadhanya: All the people think that our Deities are made of gold. They've never seen so shiny and such srngara before.
Tamala Krsna: Here?
Prabhupada: In Mayapura.
Satadhanya: In Mayapura especially, yeah. [break]
Prabhupada: ...wanted to see our. Is it not?
Satadhanya: Yes.
Prabhupada: All inhabitants of Navadvipa were...
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said we should get some launch. Just like in Hrishikesh there's some launches and they take people free of charge back and forth, Prabhupada said we should do that, take people back and forth from Navadvipa Ghata.
Prabhupada: Not Navadvipa Ghata. Others, from...
Tamala Krsna: Oh, Svarup Ganj?
Satadhanya: Navadvipa.
Prabhupada: Navadvipa side.
Tamala Krsna: From Navadvipa side?
Prabhupada: Where you take bath, just opposite.
Tamala Krsna: Oh. Right now there's nothing over there on that side.
Prabhupada: So you have to arrange for that.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, I see. We could buy... Actually there was some land being offered to us. It went right from the road all the way to the river. There was a strip of land belonging to that Gaura Maharaja. Remember Gaura Maharaja?
Prabhupada: Ha, ha, ha.
Tamala Krsna: So there was one piece of land he had. There's a little temple there. And it goes all the way from the road right up to the Ganga. So we could have a little ghata there, and the boat would dock. Yeah, that's a very good idea because if it goes from where the other boats go, then the boat wallas will cause trouble. But now they... They could not protest if we make our own place.
Prabhupada: Arrange like that. You have understood?
Satadhanya: Yes, Prabhupada.
Tamala Krsna: (whispering to Satadhanya)
Prabhupada: Next get the two boats like that.
Tamala Krsna: Two boats. At Hrishikesh they have boats. The boat is about the length of this...
Prabhupada: Now it is half past nine.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: See how they are satisfied. [break] ...so small fly, and they can come so far only for that light.
Tamala Krsna: What do they see in that light? Their death.
Prabhupada: That is material world. [break]
Tamala Krsna: Actually, as I could see in that building, the kitchen is nearly completed, so even if they have not completely opened that building, still, if the kitchen is completed, they can begin to cook there immediately. Why should they wait two or three months? The storeroom is a storeroom. That can be used immediately and put strong locks, and one man is in charge, and he has a register, coming in, going out.
Prabhupada: No different store, no different...
Tamala Krsna: No different store?
Prabhupada: Two servants always cleansing. As soon as somebody eats, the servant cleanses the place, take the plates and washes, return to kitchen. You have seen cut rows, wood. Devotees have seen. You can purchase. Engage one wood cutter. Then that will be... Everything can be arranged. Simply good management. Sleeping management will not help. And everyone... Such a big hall. Everyone should eat.
Tamala Krsna: What, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Such a big dining hall. The other day they were showing, "Here is the sign. Here is the si..." So let them be utilized. Simply showing?
Tamala Krsna: (loud clanking in background) This kind of sound spoils the whole peacefulness of this guesthouse, this kitchen. And it starts from early in the morning, at 5:30.
Prabhupada: No, it is disturbing to me. Where is guest?
Tamala Krsna: Actually they do have a number of guests here. They're having about twenty...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Welcome. But no cooking there.
Tamala Krsna: No. No, that's cleared up. Immediately we can start using that hall for feeding our meal. Actually there's no reason why certain parts of that building can't be utilized now, not just sit. On one day there has to be some, you know... We may have that to show opening ceremony, but still, certain places can be utilized at a time. Just like they're using some of the...
Prabhupada: No, opening ceremony... Gurukula is going on.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Some of the offices are already being utilized. So the dining hall can be utilized and the kitchen floor.
Prabhupada: That offices I cannot understand. There is no management; then office. Big, big office, but no management. All bogus. Office means management. But there is no management, and the office. Office, what does it mean, office?
Tamala Krsna: Good management.
Prabhupada: That's all. But if there is no good management, where is the use of office? Simply occupying seats? Management is... I have told him that. And he has brought some management. But there is no one. Just like government, the Filing Center, the Filing Center. Where is the file? Nobody knows. This is going on. What can I do? How the things are being done finally, nobody knows. But it is informed. "I am informing." Is it not? Anyway...
Tamala Krsna: I was... Actually I was also thinking about this management this morning. That's why when you called me I didn't come immediately. I was with Aksayananda Maharaja.
Prabhupada: Aksayananda waiting for another man, and he is waiting for another man. And nobody comes. That's all. You are finished: "I am waiting for another..." And he'll be finished: "I am waiting for another." And he's finished: "I am waiting for..." Bas, finished business. There is no such arrangement that things are going on very nicely, automatically. That is not... Anyway... Every dining, every cooking should be there. First of all manage this. And cooking should be done in good place.
Tamala Krsna: This dining hall has been built here. They have a dining hall...
Prabhupada: That can be used for other purposes.
Tamala Krsna: It shouldn't be used for the...?
Prabhupada: No, one dining... That.
Tamala Krsna: Devotees and paying guests...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. No separate. One dining hall.
Tamala Krsna: 'Cause in Mayapura the people who live in the guesthouse, they get served in the guesthouse.
Prabhupada: You have dining place here(?).
Tamala Krsna: You said that a high-class person should be served where he's...
Prabhupada: No, who is high class, low class? Everyone...
Tamala Krsna: If they can bring the prasada from the cooking arrangement there to over here, it's all right if they serve them here? 'Cause I think the guests prefer that they can eat in this guesthouse.
Prabhupada: Yes, that plates can be brought.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. So we'll see to that first of all.
Prabhupada: One store, one kitchen, one dining room. Bas. Not separate.
Tamala Krsna: Not separate dining room.
Prabhupada: That is not management. Such a big hall, such a big kitchen, sufficient. If some special per..., it can be done in that kitchen.
Tamala Krsna: In that big kitchen.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Prabhupada: After all, a man will cook. So he'll cook there.
Tamala Krsna: What about the fact that the guests eat different prasada than devotees?
Prabhupada: Then go there.
Tamala Krsna: And we'll serve them different types of foodstuffs.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: Devotees will get one kind of food and the guests will get a different kind.
Prabhupada: Yes. They can prepare there. What for that separate kitchen?
Tamala Krsna: No, there's no reason.
Prabhupada: Separate cooking may be... [break] ...cannot. Simply they have... Every cheap people goes there. What they have done? Tell me that "This they have done, very beneficial to the human society." What they have done?
Satadhanya: They say that they are curing disease.
Prabhupada: Disease? So what is the benefit? One disease after another disease...
Satadhanya: They say that the life-span is getting more years.
Prabhupada: That is another bluff. Formerly people used to live very long. Actually in this Kali-yuga the limitation is one hundred years. But who is living one hundred years?
Satadhanya: Even less.
Prabhupada: Fifty, sixty... Average India, thirty-five years. In your country a little more. Nobody lives hundred years. That is also another bluff. But even if you live for hundred years, does it mean that you have stopped death? Then what is the benefit? You are eternal. Na jayate na mriyate va, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. You are eternal, but why you are dying? What the scientists have done? Na jayate na mriyate. Eternal means one who has no birth, no death. But you have birth and death, so where is your scientists' help?
Upendra: The reason the original faith was placed in the scientists was because radio, airplanes, tape recorders have been manufactured, and people are impressed by these originally.
Prabhupada: So what is the benefit? Without radio, people were dying, or with radio they are not living?
Upendra: They say they are living more comfortably.
Prabhupada: Nonsense comfortably... They have changed the season? Is it comfortable? We have to take this cooling machine. What is the practical benefit? You can say that it is comfortable. That's all right. But that does not mean that you have moved the uncomfortable situation. You are struggling against. That much you can take credit. Real benefit is not there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Real unhappiness is this, that you are: "Why I am struggling? I don't want death." Actually why I am taking massage and so on, so on? So that I may not die. So where is the scientists' guarantee, "No, you'll not die"? Has he any...? You'll struggle only. That's all. The scientists cannot guarantee, "No, you'll not die." That is real guarantee. "You'll die comfortably." Hm? Die comfortably? Now there is no appetite. Where is the scientist, assuring, "Take"? What actual benefit they have done? They are giving some... Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff. Things without which we could do, such things are there. There were no motorcars. There was horse carriage and bullock carriage. Things were going on. Not that without this horseless motorcar society would have been vanquished. No. There are other alternatives. Rather, they were complicated. As soon as you ride on a car, there is anxiety, especially in your country, so many cars. When you ride on a car, full of anxiety... At any moment there may be accident. It is not comfortable. If you are full of anxiety. Aeroplane may be. At any moment you can die. It is your time only. They're going in good faith: "I shall go there." But before rising to the sky, finished, crash. So many airplane has been... So where is the comfort? As soon as you get on the aeroplane, you are in full anxiety that at any moment there may be crash. Is it not? Then where is comfort? Real comfort is without anxiety. That is real comfort. Canakya Pandita has given, real comfort means, arni akyavad(?): "One who is not out of home and one who has no debts, he is happy." Nowadays people are going out of home, and everyone is debtor to the bank and so many... The economic machine is so made that one is put always in debts for some so-called comforts, and he's full of anxiety. The whole month he has to work to pay debts. (end)

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