Bhu-mandala Discussion

July 3, 1977, Vrndavana
Prabhupada: And you think it is religion.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, and he's an animal. What does he know?
Satadhanya: And he's limited to a certain atmosphere.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. He is animal. Know that. What is his idea? And he has not correctly estimated that how high is Himalaya.
Tamala Krsna: No. A gross underestimation-five miles instead of eighty thousand. Not even close. That means he has no idea.
Prabhupada: There are... I have seen many places by aeroplane, hilly tract. Perhaps you have also seen. They could never go there. Hundreds and thousands of miles, simply stone.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, that we've seen.
Prabhupada: Who is going there?
Tamala Krsna: Yeah...
Prabhupada: You have seen from aeroplane?
Satadhanya: Some. Some mountains.
Tamala Krsna: In the Alps no one can go there. There's places in the Alps. There's simply so many mountains, no one can go there. The map as the modern people show itIndia, Africa, Europe, America, North America, South Americado we accept that much?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Do we accept the contour of the continents? Do we accept the general continents?
Prabhupada: We accept nothing of their theory. They are prejudiced and nonsense. Formerly they were speaking that the world is flat. Now they have changed: "It is round." So what is the value of his estimate? And you'll find in that book, "probably."
Tamala Krsna: That was the most frequent word used.
Prabhupada: Yes. So what is the value of their knowledge? Besides that, they'll insist that life is combination of chemicals, and they cannot produce it. Simply useless. So it is, what is called, childish obstinacy. So why shall I believe them? Just like a child cries, "I want. I want," it is like that. There is no science. Still they will say it is science.
Tamala Krsna: It's nescience.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: Nescience.
Prabhupada: Where is the proof that you produce life from chemicals? We say it cannot be, and they say, "Yes, it is..."
Tamala Krsna: Everything in life comes from some other life.
Prabhupada: We say that "You have never gone to moon." They will say, "Yes, we have gone." Now they have mentioned, "It is hoax." So how we can believe them? What is the value of their statement? And they promise future, "Yes, we are trying."
Tamala Krsna: Post-dated check.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: So something's wrong with their instrument. When they fly from Los Angeles and their compass...
Prabhupada: Nothing is wrong. From their estimate it is all right. But there is superior power.
Tamala Krsna: They go due west and they hit India from Los Angeles, but according to our calculation, that's not possible.
Prabhupada: You can go further, but you cannot go. That is condition. You are restricted. The same, that you are bound up. If an animal can go further... But he cannot, because he is bound up. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He is thinking, "I am free." He is not free. So what is the value of his education? This is the real point.
Tamala Krsna: They'll want to talk about another point.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Tamala Krsna: They'll want to talk about the point that the point on their compass that points west while they're flying in the airplane, and they keep it going west, and they eventually land in India from Los Angeles.
Prabhupada: You are flying west or eastyou do not know. You are controlled.
Tamala Krsna: They say, "No, our compass shows it. And you accept the compass."
Prabhupada: That's all right. You are going west, but do you think where you think that the west is end, that is not end. You can go further.
Tamala Krsna: They say it never ends because we're going around the planet.
Prabhupada: No, that is his dog's mentality, going round. That is dog. He is thinking that "This is the area. Now I..." He's controlled by superior power, that "You cannot go." An example is... There are so many. There are so many stars, moons, and we'll go there. But he cannot go.
Tamala Krsna: They say, "We accept this premise, that we are limited."
Prabhupada: But then limited, you cannot say final.
Tamala Krsna: "But we say within our limited means we can understand that..."
Prabhupada: And limited means if you understand that "I am bound up. I am going round the law," that is all right. But don't say that "Beyond this limit there is nothing."
Tamala Krsna: No, they don't.
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: But supposing that within this limit we accept that we are limited.
Prabhupada: That is all right.
Tamala Krsna: But we say that we're going west and...
Prabhupada: That's right, west up to this point, rascal, not more than that. Why don't you understand this? West you have gone. That's all right. But up to this point, no more. You cannot go. You don't say that there is no more after this western... They are saying that.
Satadhanya: Yeah, they say, "Then west becomes east."
Tamala Krsna: Right, they say.
Satadhanya: They say.
Prabhupada: No.
Satadhanya: But why? Just because it is finished for them...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satadhanya: ...'cause they are limited.
Prabhupada: Unlimited.
Tamala Krsna: But how do they fly direct to India?
Prabhupada: Unlimited way.
Tamala Krsna: This question they're still going to put. They're still going to put this question, that they... We say, "Here is Jambudvipa, and this is Bharatavarsa on the bottom, and you cannot go beyond Bharatavarsa because you're conditioned. You're limited. That is our position. And within Bharatavarsa there is India. We accept that. Even we accept that. There are oceans. There are continents, seven continents, as described in the Bhagavatam." So their question is: "Okay, but then how do you explain that you can go this direction and you come out in India, over, back here?"
Prabhupada: We don't say that, that this direction, what you are saying, it is end. That is not. We say that.
Tamala Krsna: That it doesn't end.
Prabhupada: That you can go further, but you cannot go. Therefore you are thinking, "This is end of the position." The same dog mentality. He is within that small area. He is thinking, "There is no more, other space." That example is another, that bull. His eyes are closed, and he crushes the oil mill, going. He's thinking he is going three hundred miles.
Tamala Krsna: They keep the eyes blinded so he won't...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: ...understand what's going on.
Prabhupada: Because in one place, simply going round, going round, it makes one mad. So those eyes are closed. He is thinking, "This is the end of world."
Tamala Krsna: So you have said that, but still you have not given the solution.
Prabhupada: This is solution.
Tamala Krsna: You've explained it...
Prabhupada: Solution is that you are thinking, "This is this." You are making solution. You are making solution.
Tamala Krsna: We're trying to make.
Prabhupada: But I say, because you are limited, this is not this. What you are thinking, "This is this," that is not.
Tamala Krsna: So what is it?
Prabhupada: Kupa-manduka, the frog in the well, he is thinking that "This is the whole water area."
Tamala Krsna: Then what is it? If it is not what I am thinking, then what is it?
Prabhupada: That I am explaining. Take it.
Tamala Krsna: But we can't explain it. That's the problem.
Prabhupada: No, no, why cannot explain?
Tamala Krsna: That's the problem.
Prabhupada: It is there, given in the book. What you are doing?
Tamala Krsna: According to the book, according to Bhagavata and the picture that we have drawn, there's only one way to go from America to India.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: There's only one way to go from America to India, not twoat least to our vision. So far, we have not been able to explain it. That's our problem.
Prabhupada: I do not... What...
Tamala Krsna: Well, I'd better... I can bring our diagram.
Prabhupada: Here is America. Here is India. If you go immediately, then one way, that's all.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, only one way. But they go two ways.
Prabhupada: Two way?
Satadhanya: From New York or from San Francisco.
Tamala Krsna: They can go from New York, that direction, or they go from Los Angeles, the other way. Either way, they come to India, and they say, "That proves the world is round 'cause we can go like this or we can go this way." But we say, "No, you can only go this way." But the compass shows I am going due east...
Prabhupada: So we don't say differently. You can go this way.
Tamala Krsna: But we don't say that. Because there's no round, we say... Simply it's a lotus. It's not...
Prabhupada: No, I... It is the same example. Just a animal is bound up, so he's going this round or this round, the same thing. But you cannot go beyond that.
Tamala Krsna: That they'll... "We accept." I take the view of the scientists.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes. We don't say. Suppose you are going round, you'll go this round or this round, but within the round.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. But the whole question we're saying is that we say, "No, you can only go one way."
Prabhupada: No, I don't say.
Tamala Krsna: But according to our...
Prabhupada: If you are going round, you can go round this way or that way.
Tamala Krsna: But there is no round.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is round. You are thinking round. You are going round... (end)

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