Room Conversation
with Svarupa Damodara

January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
Prabhupada: Putrika. Putri, then ka, go together.
Indian man: (Bengali)
Svarupa Damodara: Accha. Prabhupada was reading in Manipur.
Gargamuni: Two of our men tried to go to Manipur from Shillong. Do you know Prabhavisnu?
Gargamuni: But they could not... You have to get special license for foreigners.
Svarupa Damodara: Here's the letter. We can get it.
Prabhupada: We shall get it. He will arrange. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: The letter.
Prabhupada: (Bengali)
Svarupa Damodara: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: So you can arrange. We shall go.
Svarupa Damodara: I gave a lecture last Sunday in that Gita Mandala. I gave a lecture. So they're very anxious to receive Srila Prabhupada and the American devotees.
Prabhupada: Make Manipur a big nice center of Vaisnava. You are descendants of Babhruvahana. There is no doubt about it. Vaisnava raja. Make Manipur a strong center of Krsna, and it will be easily done, strong Vaisnava center, ksatriya. I would like to see this.
Svarupa Damodara: I think the government, the Manipur government, they are willing to even donate land.
Prabhupada: Yes, let us cooperate.
Svarupa Damodara: It will be very easy.
Prabhupada: Let us cooperate. The Manipur is already... For the last five thousand years at least, their name is in the Bhagavatam, Manipur. And still they are Vaisnavas. They have got temple in Navadvipa, in Vrndavana. So Manipur have cele...
Gargamuni: The chief minister also came, Karan(?) Singh?
Prabhupada: The governor of Punjab is Manipuri. He's so kind, he came to see me with his full staff. That governor is so respectful to me. So he came to see me. You know?
Pradyumna: Yes. At Chandigarh.
Prabhupada: Chandigarh, yes. In his state way-eti khan,(?) secretary, everythinghe came to offer me respect. So Manipuri people are very nice. So why not organize? Rejuvenate them. So you are the Manipur's son. Now you are perfect Vaisnava. Now let us make Manipur a Vaisnava ksatriya center, very nice. Then make relation with Nepal. Nepal, they are ksatriyas also.
Svarupa Damodara: They have intermarriage within the kingly families. The Manipur and Nepal. There is marriage.
Svarupa Damodara: They have intermarriage.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are ksatriyas. Manipur, they are ksatriyas, and Nepal is also ksatriya. Is also? Bopal? Bopal.(?) They are ksatriyas?
Prabhupada: Bhutan. Bhutan, yes. Not Bopal. Bopal is in... In Bhutan.
Svarupa Damodara: Nepal, Bhutan, and Manipur.
Prabhupada: So make Manipur a strong center and preach. The other side, Manipur, next is Burma?
Gargamuni: Burma.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. They used to fight. The king of Manipur and the Burmese, fighting.
Prabhupada: Still?
Svarupa Damodara: They used to fight long ago.
Prabhupada: Fighting between king and king, there is always. But what is the cause of fight? Vaisnava should fight with the non-Vaisnava. So I have already written you?
Prabhupada: So you can arrange when it will be suitable to go there.
Svarupa Damodara: Any time will be suitable. This is pretty cold at this time.
Prabhupada: Then it is not so good.
Svarupa Damodara: After Mayapura I think it will be best, this Mayapura festival. Then it will be very nice. It's getting warmer. Actually it was seven degrees this morning, but they have very little snow.
Prabhupada: So...
Hari-sauri: Very little? (laughs)
Gargamuni: We should go after Mayapura.
Prabhupada: You came directly here by plane?
Svarupa Damodara: No. I came to Calcutta. (Bengali) So I was planning to go to Bombay. Then I went to the temple. Last night I came, and I called the temple, but there was nobody, so I didn't know where Prabhupada is. So I was trying to go to Bombay today. Then I learned from the temple that Prabhupada is here, so I was planning to go by train. Then I found out there is an airplane also available, so I came by plane.
Prabhupada: Yes, from Calcutta to Bhuvanesvara there is plane.
Svarupa Damodara: I have never been here before in Bhuvanesvara.
Prabhupada: Bhuvanesvara, Jagannatha Puri. They are important places. So give him prasada first, and then come.(?)
Svarupa Damodara: We had a meeting before I came here...
Prabhupada: Ah, ah.
Svarupa Damodara: ...in Washington with Rupanuga Prabhu and the other scientists in our group for the Institute. So I have some papers to be signed by Your Divine Grace. So you'll read in the morning? Tomorrow?
Prabhupada: Yes. We have started one institute, Bhaktivedanta Institute?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. And I want to show several aspects of our journal, Sa-vijnanam. We have almost completed the first volume.
Prabhupada: They are publishing one paper, Sa-vijnanam. How do you like this name? Sa-vijnanam. This is picked up from Bhagavad-gita. Jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam idam vaksyamy asesatah. Sa-vijnanam [Bg. 7.2]. Sa-vijnanam means according to science. So did you see...
Svarupa Damodara: I have some designs about the covers of the first issue. We wanted to show to Srila Prabhupada. I think I have here.
Prabhupada: We are challenging scientists that "Life cannot be produced by chemicals only. Life comes from life." They're all big, big chemists. There is another Ph.D. Another M.A.C., M.A.C., this Oriya, Faree(?). He can also join.
Gargamuni: Srila Prabhupada? I would like to see Tarun Kanti Gosh. He once told me any time you wanted to go to Manipur he would give an official letter.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Gargamuni: So if I can show him this letter I can make arrangements now so that after Mayapura we can go.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Gargamuni: I can give them the names and our passport numbers.
Svarupa Damodara: I have the forms I brought from Manipur.
Prabhupada: So you arrange it.
Gargamuni: Yes. 'Cause he will give this letter of recommendation for us to go.
Svarupa Damodara: I brought some samples that we want to do.
Pradyumna: This is like Scientific American.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, that is designed by Sadaputa.
Prabhupada: Who is he?
Svarupa Damodara: That's Darwin.
Prabhupada: Oh. The nonsense. (laughter) Nastika vana eka sab duniya(?). [break]
Svarupa Damodara: ...cover, with this Mayapura background. The idea is that at the bottom is the molecules, and...
Prabhupada: This will be a revolution, science and Bhagavad-gita.
Gargamuni: He's our member. [break] ...three times to our temple in Calcutta.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Gargamuni: And through another member, Mr. Mahesvari, he became one of our members. [break]
Prabhupada: Rich man, poor man, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, American, Ind..., sab combined. (Hindi) This is really United Nation, our organization. (Hindi) So? What other pictures?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, I have many pictures. I gave a lecture, seminar, just before I came here at the university, about the nature of the Absolute Truth in terms of science and in terms of Bhagavad-gita, a comparative study of the concept of the Absolute Truth. And there were many professors from physics, chemistry, mathematics, from philosophy, from biology, and from sociology. It was... Balavanta Prabhu was also there, and a few other devotees. It was quite interesting. And there was a slide show.
Prabhupada: Balavanta was in Manipur?
Svarupa Damodara: No. This is in the United States.
Prabhupada: United States.
Svarupa Damodara: America. Just before I came. So we made several slides and these, called transparencies. We are going to make all these things as illustrations in our book as well as in the journal. These are some samples that we have.
Prabhupada: So what these big, big scientists said?
Svarupa Damodara: The chairman gave me a nice letter saying that this is the first type of seminar that he has ever heard in his life. (Prabhupada chuckles) We made the presentation sound very scientific. We had the slide projection on one side, and this overhead projection on the other side. So it made a good presentation so that people can be attracted. It was quite effective. In fact, it was the most effective so far we have seen, because it was very colorful, the pictures, and we were comparing the fundamental concept of the Absolute Truth as it is understood by modern science and the defects of it, and then what is the alternative, the alternative view. We call it the other alternative scientific view. That is from... We speak about the Second Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, about the nature of life, about the nature of the self. We've taken that it's nonchemical and nonphysical. Then we try to explain it in terms of scientific terminologies and scientific language.
Prabhupada: The, that verse, that "It does not burn, it does not..."
Prabhupada: That is...
Svarupa Damodara: Nainam... Yes.
Prabhupada: Nainam chindanti... That is the nonphysical.
Hari-sauri: Like a comparative study chart.
Prabhupada: We are presenting sastric version in modern scientific symbolic representative. So the chairman said that he never...?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Here's the letter with me. These are the... That's a comparison between Bhagavad-gita and science. On the left side is the modern scientific view, and the right side is from Bhagavad-gita about the nature of the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada: "Two alternative views of the laws of nature. These laws exist, but they are inconceivable to the human mind. The view of modern scienceyes. They exist invariantly throughout spaceyes. They do not change with timeyes. They control all manifestationno." What that is, mean?
Svarupa Damodara: Modern science. On Bhagavad-gita... On the right column is from Bhagavad-gita, the right-hand side, the alternative... We do not call Bhagavad-gita directly, but we say "the alternative view," so that they do not immediately be offended. We call "alternative scientific view." [break]
Prabhupada: Now some person...
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. It's very interesting that science says that those equations at the bottom are the... Those are the ultimate truth, the modern science, about these mathematical equations. So if we analyze this on the analytical basis, they are like thisthose mathematical equations. So this is the concept of Absolute Truth in terms of science. And these are atoms and molecules or, we call it, fundamental particles. And so the spring between the two is some sort of electromagnetic force in the different..., among different particles. So this is the concept of Absolute Truth in terms of science. And we analyzed this in terms of our practical experience, from our day-to-day experience, and we gave some nice examples like this. This is a crocodile from... It's a male crocodile from South Africa in Scientific American a few months ago. There he's trying to break an egg just to come out, that little young one, the small baby crocodile. And what he does is...
Prabhupada: They come out from egg?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. They lay eggs.
Prabhupada: Oh. How big it is?
Svarupa Damodara: I don't know how big it is.
Prabhupada: Not very big.
Svarupa Damodara: I don't think it's very big.
Pradyumna: Not very big. Because they have baby crocodiles at home. In the United States it used to be the fashion to get a baby crocodile and keep him in a tub. Then he would get too big so they would flush it down the toilet, and then in the sewers in New York many crocodiles.
Hari-sauri: Yes. They're all living in the sewers. (Prabhupada laughs)
Pradyumna: If one goes in the sewers it's very dangerous, because crocodiles have grown up and they are in the sewers. So they get them small size and they keep them at home.
Prabhupada: And when it is bigger it is thrown into commode?
Pradyumna: Thrown in the commode. And it goes to the sewer. And in the sewer in New York are big underground, big, big tunnels, and in there big, big crocodiles. The men who work in the sewers..., very dangerous for them because there're all big things there, crocodiles, snake, big cats.
Prabhupada: Big cats?
Pradyumna: And big rats.
Prabhupada: So the crocodile, they do not eat the rats?
Pradyumna: There are all kinds of many living entities there in the sewers of New York. In all sewers in big Western cities. There's once... There's a very famous French novel, and it describes how a prisoner was escaping from troops, so he went in the sewer. And in the sewer there was all kinds of so many things. Once an article about New York sewers...
Prabhupada: They can live in that nasty water?
Hari-sauri: It's warm. The reason why they're down there is because the sewers are always very warm. So it's very conducive for the alligators. So they grow very big.
Prabhupada: And what they eat?
Hari-sauri: Rodents. Rats and different things.
Pradyumna: London sewers also.
Svarupa Damodara: The idea behind this is that the jaws of this crocodile is so big and so powerful that they can crush, they say, the femur of a buffalo, the thigh, a big all at once, they can crush it immediately. But in the case of the egg, he has this loving tendency, tender care, so that the little one is not hurt, the feeling, their conscious feeling.
Prabhupada: Affectionate.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. How that can come about by this..., those pushes and pulls? That is our question. We inquire how can this be explained just in terms of atoms and molecules? If we assume that life is nothing but a manifestation of these pushes and pulls of these molecular interactions, then science has no explanation. Then we take example from Darwin himself, his own words.
Hari-sauri: Did you read this caption, Srila Prabhupada, for this crocodile? 'Cause it explains how the male crocodile, he takes the egg underneath his tongue and he rolls it backwards and forwards very gently until the young crocodile hatches, and then he leaves his mouth open, and the little crocodile jumps out and swims ashore.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Hari-sauri: So the point they were making was that if it was simply a question of chemical reaction, that tendency...
Prabhupada: How it is... How would that..., eggs.
Hari-sauri: Yes. How would he have that loving feeling to hatch the baby?
Gargamuni: After all, they are man-eaters. They would immediately eat.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: But he is not eating.
Prabhupada: No, that the other day we saw, the lions. There was quarrel, baby lionsnot baby, very bigbut there is no attack. There is no attack. The feelings of affection is there in the animal, ferocious animal. So what is the scientists' reply?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, they are fascinated with this concept, but they cannot explain. They are failing those aspects.
Prabhupada: So you are attacking them like this. Choke. (laughter) That is good.
Svarupa Damodara: That's Darwin again. The Darwin... His own words. We are quoting his words, and we're going to use it as illustrations in the book as well as in the journal.
Prabhupada: "I remember well the time when the thought of the eye made..." What is that? "...eye(?) made me cold, when the eye(?) made me cold all over, but I have got over this stage of the complaint, and now a small trifling, particulars of structure, often make me very uncomfortable. The sight of a feather in a peacock's tail, whenever I (sic?) crease at the neck..."
Svarupa Damodara: "Make me sick."
Prabhupada: "Make me sick." What does he mean by this?
Svarupa Damodara: He says... See, his theory of evolution cannot explain how these eyes are evolved, our eyes. So he felt very uncomfortable just seeing in the beginning these eyes, our eyes. But he says that stage he has overcome to some extent. But still, one particular phenomenon is bothering him very much. That is the eye in the peacock's tail. It is the delicate, nice design with is colorful structure.
Prabhupada: How it evolved.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, how it evolved. He cannot explain by his theory. So he said whenever he gazed at it, that makes him sick.
Pradyumna: It's the opposite of the devotee.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) Rascal. Artificially how long you'll stand?
Svarupa Damodara: Actually he has... He has remarked many important things for us also, especially in his autobiography. We are quoting some of his words saying that when he was young, in his childhood, he was very fascinated by works of art like reading literature, like works of Shakespeare and poets like Byron, Keats, and Shelley. He said he was very fascinated in his childhood.
Prabhupada: No, he was a thoughtful man, undoubtedly.
Svarupa Damodara: But when he finished his book, The Theory of Evolution, in his old age, he said he lost all the taste. He said whenever he starts to remember his youthful days, he said, he's almost at the point of nauseation, almost vomiting. Whenever he remembers Shakespeare, Byron, and all these things, he says he begins to vomit.
Prabhupada: He became too much prosaic. He became prosaic. He could not appreciate poetic.
Svarupa Damodara: He said he lost all taste in life. He said it's..., no meaning. He said life becomes no meaning, has no meaning and no purpose. He said he lost all his taste.
Prabhupada: He regrets.
Svarupa Damodara: He regrets.
Hari-sauri: Became hopeless.
Svarupa Damodara: So actually that is the result of that theory, because the theory says that we are just combination of some molecules. We come from molecules, and when we finish, we will also go to molecules. So that very philosophy, that very concept, makes people think that way.
Prabhupada: He was a scientist?
Svarupa Damodara: He was called naturalist. Yes, he was... He had some background in biology. And to counteract his statement we have also another statement from... This is from Einstein, but another, from Pasteur, this is very suitable for our purpose. (pause) Einstein was against the..., what they call the laws of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is the most advanced stage of modern physics or modern chemistry. But they are..., says that there must be chance. They must introduce a concept of chance in order to explain the nature of the Absolute Truth. In other words, these physical laws, the laws of nature...
Prabhupada: The Absolute Truth is also chance?
Svarupa Damodara: In order to write down in the form of mathematical formulas or equations in quantum mechanics thisthey call probabilitythe theory of probability or chance should be introduced. But Einstein was against that. That's what he's saying. It says, "The Heisenberg all-tranquilizing philosophy or religion is so delicately contrived that for the time being it provides a gentle pillow for the true believer from which he cannot very easily be aroused. So let him lie there." In other words, those who believe in chance... The main concept in quantum mechanics or quantum physics is mainly from this Heisenberg and Borg. They are well-known physicists. There is a chapter called "Copenhagen Interpretation." There was a great meeting in Copenhagen about this concept of quantum mechanics, and so they call it "Copenhagen Interpretation." And there the names which were..., this Heisenberg and Borg(?). And they were saying that "Yes, we must accept that there must be chance." So the argument was put forward by these people, but Einstein is against, to that idea. So he's saying that "Those who believe, let them lie there, because the philosophy made by these people serves as a very gentle pillow, very soft. So once people lie there, they cannot be very easily aroused." That's the idea. "But," he said, "that is not a fact."
Hari-sauri: That's like... He means it's an easy way out for them to say "chance."
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. "Those who don't understand, those who want to be just satisfied with that concept, let them lie there for the time being. But," he said, "that is not a truth."
Prabhupada: So why the scientists die?
Svarupa Damodara: Why scientists die?
Prabhupada: Yes. Why do not make some arrangement so they'll not die?
Svarupa Damodara: Well, they are making, today they are making an attempt. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Same thing. All the scientists, past, presenteveryone is dying.
Indian (1): They will not die then they will make themself to society, you know.
Svarupa Damodara: Here is the... Here is our last counteracting statement from Pasteur.
Hari-sauri: Shall I read it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: It's a long one. "I have been looking for a spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. Now I do not judge it impossible, but what allows you to make it, 'the origin of life'? You place matter before life, and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life?"
Svarupa Damodara: That is exactly what we say, what Prabhupada says.
Hari-sauri: Louis Pasteur.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter has come from life.
Svarupa Damodara: We conclude our lecture with this. So they are all silent, (laughter) because a famous scientist said that.
Prabhupada: So we first of all protested that matter comes from life, not life comes from matter. So when you concluded, they were silent.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, they were almost pindrop silent, all of them. Normally they ask many questions, this type of lecture. But not this time. There were some at the beginning.
Prabhupada: So our triumph is ahead.
Svarupa Damodara: So Sadaputa told me that he's going to give lectures in these coming few weeks in Boston.
Prabhupada: Who?
Svarupa Damodara: They are together, the two scientists. Our two scientists.
Hari-sauri: Sadaputa.
Prabhupada: Organize...
Svarupa Damodara: They'll do the same thing, same lecture as I gave, similar style. He had all the copies. We made very many colorful slides and transparencies. So that we speak just like any other professional speakers in science.
Prabhupada: No, you can..., every right to speak. You are qualified scientist. All doctor, they must agree to hear you, cannot deny.
Svarupa Damodara: And our mathematician is very good. He's also got some good artistic ideas. He told me that he started some arts.
Prabhupada: So he's a mathematician and another (sic:) physist, and you are chemist. So complete science. The pure science is mathematics, physics, and chemistry. So our three Ph.D.s, they are combination of pure science. Nobody can defeat. Mathematics is there, physics is there, chemistry is there. And my sentiment is this, (laughs) I challenge them, "No. Life from life, not matter." So perhaps I challenged first. Or anybody? Then life from life, not from matter?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, Srila Prabhupada did it.
Gargamuni: I think we should make maybe a few plates just like they have shown the scientists, but a few plates of yourself with some quotations challenging these men.
Prabhupada: Our another challenge is they have never gone to moon planet. (laughs)
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, that's a problem now, Srila Prabhupada. (laughter) See, sometimes when we give lectures... Some time ago we gave in Gainesville. We were talking about life and matter. Then some people came, and they asked that question about the moon thing. So we said we were working on it. And...
Prabhupada: Another my challenge is that moon is beyond the sun. First planet is sun, and then moon. So if the sun is 93,000,000 miles and moon is above the sun 1,600,000, then how they can go to the moon planet in four days? It requires seven and a half months. That is my challenge.
Gargamuni: You mention also that "Sunday, Monday."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: Sunday is first. It is the sun. Then Moonday, Moon.
Prabhupada: That is all over the world, Sunday first, Monday second. Ravi, Soma.
Prabhupada: In arcana also the...
Pradyumna: Om anvahni-mangalaya dasa-kalatmanenava om an arka-maangalaya dvadasa-kalatmanena va om an soma-mangalaya sodasa-kalatmanenava.(?)
Prabhupada: Surya-mangala above.
Pradyumna: Before, below. Then comes Soma-mangala. Soma-mangala, last.
Prabhupada: That's...
Prabhupada: So let us do something, (laughs) Krsna consciousness movement, we can meet the any scientist also.
Hari-sauri: We need a Krsna conscious astronomer now too.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Then that will be complete.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually we started looking some on this astronomy thing. About this Surya-siddhanta. Sadaputa is especially interested because he's a mathematician. So normally astronomy is subject of mathematics. So he found this copy in Princeton just recently, last month or so. There we found that the idea is very similar to modern science in the Surya-siddhanta. But we heard that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada translated Surya-siddhanta, but we are not getting a copy of it. So he asked me to look in Calcutta, and some astrologers.
Prabhupada: He had some disciples, some astronomer. His name can be had from Calcutta.
Prabhupada: Ah! Mohini Sastri. Mohini Sastri. He was his disciple.
Pradyumna: I went to try... He's dead now.
Prabhupada: He is also. He's passed away.
Pradyumna: And I saw his son. I saw his son. I asked if he had any of Srila Prabhupada's books on jyotir, but he did not... He is practicing jyotir, but not...
Prabhupada: Mohini Sastri's son?
Pradyumna: His son. Samba...
Prabhupada: My Guru Maharaja was a great astronomer.
Svarupa Damodara: I think that would be our proper research, to look into it.
Prabhupada: From Surya-siddhanta he got the "Bhaktisiddhanta." He got this title Surya-siddhanta. So when he became Vaisnava... A Vaisnava he was as a Bhaktisiddhanta.
Svarupa Damodara: We saw some translations in English, Surya-siddhanta. That was in Library of Congress in Washington. But the translation there was very... Was not good. It was all wrong interpretations.
Prabhupada: Who translated?
Svarupa Damodara: Some English authors, outsiders.
Prabhupada: He was also astronomer?
Svarupa Damodara: I think he was from Germany. He knew something about Sanskrit, but translation was just like to criticize those Indian, old Indian astronomers. Something like, very..., not even using even respectful words, but offensive sometimes, so we didn't bother to go through those books.
Pradyumna: There's copy of Surya-siddhanta by Bhaktisiddhanta in London at India Office Library. They have a copy in Bengali.
Svarupa Damodara: In Bengali?
Pradyumna: Yes, they have original, these. But they do not let... They have a funny... You cannot copy the whole book with a xerox there. You only can see it and copy by hand. They won't let you do it. But there's a copy there, Samadhi Press.
Prabhupada: It must be very old paper.
Pradyumna: Yes, very old.
Prabhupada: To copy in hand, how long it take? Very big book?
Pradyumna: No. Not so big. And they also have that pandita who used to live with Bhaktivinoda? They had that tall Sarasvati, that Sararati Satuspati... Bhaktisiddhanta... His name was... His books are also there, two, three books. They have published jointly from Saraswati Bhavan. Bhaktivinoda Thakura...
Prabhupada: So the scientists could not say anything.
Svarupa Damodara: Well, we said, "We are working on it." We were not giving a definite..., 'cause we need some proof to satisfy them. So we are...
Prabhupada: Anyway, you are meeting big, big scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: But we are saying that our senses are very incomplete, very limited. So how can we...
Prabhupada: That is our basic principle of knowledge, that every one of us is defective. So you cannot give us complete knowledge. It is not possible. We must receive knowledge from the perfect without defects.
Svarupa Damodara: So we were bringing that and answering, not answering directly, but saying that whatever we see, whatever we find by experimental science, by these instruments, we see something, but how do we know that... Our matter of receiving knowledge is by itself defective.
Prabhupada: Defective, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Because actually there are many defects in science.
Prabhupada: So they do not challenge you that "How your knowledge is perfect?" They do not challenge that?
Prabhupada: No, then they can challenge like that, that "If our knowledge is imperfect, how your knowledge is perfect?" If they challenge like that, what you will answer? [break] ...child is imperfect, but when the child says, "This is spectacle," and if we ask the child, "How do you know?" "Father told me," then it is perfect. He received the knowledge from the father, that "This is spectacle," so although he is imperfect child, he speaks perfect. That is our method. That statement is not imperfect. We cannot be perfect. That's not possible. But if we receive knowledge from the perfect, then our knowledge is perfect. So all right. Take prasada. It is now... [break]
Svarupa Damodara: ...was giving us so much difficulty.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Svarupa Damodara: Ah, but finally I got it.
Prabhupada: Yes, I have received. Got the blue card?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. They gave me all kinds of trouble in Washington.
Prabhupada: What is the reason?
Svarupa Damodara: Ah..., there is no reason. They're just not...
Prabhupada: Because you were challenging, maybe? But one thing is... I have got experience. Because you took immigration from America, it was so difficult. If you had taken immigration outside USA, then it would have been easier. That was my case. When I was trying to get immigration from America, it was practically...
Svarupa Damodara: It was easier a few years ago, Srila Prabhupada. Nowadays it is very difficult for anybody.
Prabhupada: Oh, to get immigration?
Prabhupada: Oh.
Svarupa Damodara: About four or five years ago, since.
Prabhupada: But when we tried to get immigration from Montreal, I got it within three months. Of course, the Consulate General was a black man, and he appreciated my books very nicely. He immediately he accepted.
Svarupa Damodara: In my case, the university sponsored me saying that nobody in the United States that can do the job as I do, which is not true.
Prabhupada: What is that job?
Svarupa Damodara: My job, my work, chemist, the instrument I work. Saying that... Must be written to the Federal Government, to the Labor Department, saying that there's nobody who would be able to do my job in the United States, qualified. Then the second condition is that by being employed myself, then nobody will be displaced. Any U.S. citizen will not be displaced by my employment. So those two conditions. And it has to be written by the university sponsor.
Prabhupada: So very difficult, that.
Svarupa Damodara: But they did it. After that, I have to get from India government saying that Indian government has no objection for me to be in the United States. So I have to get from Central Government, from the Minister of Education, and I have to get one certificate from the passport office in Calcutta, Regional Passport Office. And I have to get one from Manipur Government saying that Manipur Government has no objection for me to be in the United States. And the Manipur Government objected, that they want me back to Manipur. So there was some difficulty at the beginning. So I told them that "No, no, don't say that. Just say that you don't need me." (laughter) So they did it, letter, and I got all those letters. And that letter has to go to Indian Embassy. First of all it has to go to Indian Consulate in San Francisco. And San Francisco has to send a letter of recommendation to Indian Embassy in Washington. And then the Embassy has to send to Federal Government to the Labor Department in Washington, State Department, saying that "Such and such has this letter."
Prabhupada: So made it very complicated.
Svarupa Damodara: And (laughter) they have to send to Atlanta to the Immigration Office. And finally the Immigration Office has to get the final word from Federal Government, from the State Department. Then the interview has to come. So it took almost two years. So I thought that I'll not get it.
Prabhupada: They made it so complicated.
Svarupa Damodara: It's very difficult nowadays. So Rupanuga Prabhu was telling me that... Rupanuga was telling me in Washington when we had meeting that I will never get it because they know that I am in Hare Krsna. So they're against Hare Krsna, the Federal Government, at this stage. So they're thinking that just because of that, I'll never get it.
Prabhupada: So our... The opposition is very strong now?
Svarupa Damodara: Ah, yes. They're trying their best. And personally also from outside, there are some friends, outsiders, but not in the movement, but those who are slightly favorable to the movement. They also have some comments about some of the techniques that we use, some of the methods that we use in sankirtana, in book distribution, things like that.
Prabhupada: They do not like it?
Svarupa Damodara: Some of them don't. The technique that we use especially during the Christmas time.
Prabhupada: Why? We cannot invite friend to join?
Svarupa Damodara: No, they are saying that we go in disguise.
Hari-sauri: Santa Claus suits.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, things like that. In fact, some Indians, they telephoned. In Atlanta there are many Bengalis. They telephone me, and they are saying that "Why do you do that? You are already well known, and you can sell as you are. You don't need to be disguised. People appreciate that way better than going something hidden, sort of cheating propensity idea." There's some truth in it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: No, but many groups, they are dressing as Santa Claus.
Hari-sauri: It's traditional.
Gargamuni: And people are more inclined to take your book or gift if it is Santa Claus during that time.
Prabhupada: So for selling we can take any trick.
Gargamuni: Yes, they all do it. In Macy's department stores...
Prabhupada: It is a salesman's trick. That is allowed everywhere. If I can sell more books by some trick, I must take that. That is salesman's trick.
Hari-sauri: All the big department stores, they have Santa Claus.
Gargamuni: They bring their own Santa Claus, and they give away small gifts just to encourage the people to buy big gifts. It's a big racket they have inside the department stores.
Svarupa Damodara: In fact, Rupanuga Prabhu abandoned completely the idea of this Santa Claus in Washington while we were having our meeting. Stayed about a few days. And then he had this telephone call from distance, from outside saying that "Tomorrow I'll shoot you. I'll kill you," things like that. They get this telephone call in the temple from outsiders, "If you come like that, in Santa Claus, we'll give you a bullet," like that. So Rupanuga completely abandoned this idea. So he said, "Tell what we are, be honest, and do as we have been doing." And in fact, devotees are doing, and they got more the next morning, got more books sold just going as Hare Krsna, in Hare Krsna dress, instead of going as Santa Claus. So I think...
Prabhupada: So now it is stopped.
Hari-sauri: That was just Christmas time.
Gargamuni: That Santa Claus is only used for two weeks.
Prabhupada: So from next year we shall not do that.
Hari-sauri: No, if it becomes controversial then there's no point.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, there's many, especially in the newspaper.
Nanda-kumara: Terrible publicity in the newspapers.
Gargamuni: It came in the Calcutta newspaper, but it was not bad. It was not bad article. It was good article.
Prabhupada: And what is the...? "Do you believe that the Hare Krsnas, they are in...?"
Hari-sauri: "Would you believe three Hare Krsnas dressed in Santa Claus suits?"
Prabhupada: "...in Santa Claus?"
Gargamuni: I think people were more amused than they were angry.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is amusing.
Gargamuni: At least the newspaper article in the Statesman was very amusing. It did not criticize, because it mentioned that by wearing these suits we are able to distribute many literatures on God consciousness, which is the real meaning of Christmas. They wrote this in the States... So it was favorable.
Nanda-kumara: In Los Angeles there was some controversy, some trouble. So they had big signs that said "ISKCON," and they had a thing printed up that they put on the bucket that they were collecting with. It said, "Help us put the real spirit of God back into Christmas." And people appreciated that. It stated who we were and stated that...
Hari-sauri: Whenever there's some controversy there's always somebody that was dead against and there's always someone who's for you, but the general public, they just observe.
Svarupa Damodara: It makes a better point for them instead of making a better point for ourselves.
Prabhupada: Against party, they take it.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So they take that advantage, that's all, because so many people are trying to find out the defects here and there, just little bit, and they want to amplify if they find little.
Prabhupada: So on the whole, our temple activities are going nice?
Prabhupada: There is no hindrance on account of this counter propaganda?
Svarupa Damodara: So far, I know only in Atlanta and Washington.
Prabhupada: No, what is the position, Atlanta and Washington?
Svarupa Damodara: Atlanta also, they have difficulty. Balavanta told me just before I left that...
Prabhupada: June.
Svarupa Damodara: We lost an airport in court, book distribution. That was just before I left. So people are trying to be very critical, especially in these different circles, with the New York problem and all these symptoms, becoming very critical.
Prabhupada: Critical means they are taking this movement now seriously.
Gargamuni: Yes. It is coming up because their sons and daughters are joining.
Prabhupada: Yes. Critical means our triumph.
Hari-sauri: Yes. They know we have some substance now.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: But I think we can pretty much convince the academic circles rather easily. Our philosophy is so strong and powerful that I think we can make a good presentation in the educated circles, especially colleges and universities.
Prabhupada: Hm. That is nice. So that we are trying. We have got already books in the educated circles.
Svarupa Damodara: Not only books, but good solid presentation, to make...
Prabhupada: That is... That you are. In our Institute you lecture.
Svarupa Damodara: I think our journal, the Sa-Vijnanam, will be...
Prabhupada: Able to...
Svarupa Damodara: By Prabhupada's mercy, I think, it will be very useful in making contact with the...
Prabhupada: Yes. So when you are going to publish?
Svarupa Damodara: We wanted to print this in about three months, the first volume.
Prabhupada: And not yet finished?
Svarupa Damodara: I have the draft, the manuscript here. It needs to be revised. And then we have to contact with the...
Prabhupada: How many pages? How many pages it will be?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, it's going to be big. First... It's little too big for the first volume. I have a draft here. (gets out draft-groans as if it's heavy)
Prabhupada: Oh! (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: It's going to be the first volume, but... We're going to put a lot of illustrations.
Prabhupada: This is wanted.
Hari-sauri: It's like an encyclopedia. (laughing)
Prabhupada: Three big scientists' working. (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: Ah... Rupanuga Prabhu is writing an article. This is all about this life and matter mainly. And there will be an article by Rupanuga Prabhu called the..., from psychology. He said the..., some sort nature of consciousness from psychological point of view.
Prabhupada: He was a student of psychology?
Pradyumna: Yes. Rupanuga was...
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. And...
Prabhupada: Our Giriraja also.
Svarupa Damodara: Psychology is very important.
Prabhupada: Giriraja can also write one article.
Svarupa Damodara: Satsvarupa Maharaja and everybody can contribute articles, some sort of academic article, so we can reach the intellectual class with their format. But I talked about this with several Indians, the Indian scholars. They are... They think that it will be very powerful, especially in Krsna consciousness movement. If we add that, then said it's going to be very much more powerful.
Prabhupada: Yes. When we bring, present scientific basis, it must be powerful. All right, let us...
Gargamuni: I think in America that we cannot say that the general public is against us, because the book sales are increasing. It is only when the book sales decrease...
Prabhupada: No... So how many pages these are?
Svarupa Damodara: We plan to print up to at least hundred pages each volume. But this is already about two hundred pages. So we are going to reduce it little bit so that we can print it in next volume.
Prabhupada: Life From Life, we are already advertising in our BBT list.
Hari-sauri: Yes. It's already listed there.
Svarupa Damodara: We plan to have our book about five hundred pages. And we should finish it by fall. We feel it's major work. The difficult part is that establish from science, comparative study... And we have finished that. Next stage is... It's not very difficult. It's about, they call, fossil, these bones... We're going to say something about it, but that's not much. Then conclusion...
Prabhupada: So you are scientist, devotee, and ksatriya. As ksatriya you'll force: (laughing) "You must believe this, or I will kill you." (laughter) And as scientist, the convincing argument... And as devotee, Krsna will help you. That's all Yuddhyasva mam anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. That is Krsna's word, "Fight! And remember Me." That's all. Combination ksatriya, devotee, and scientist. Very good combination. Ksatriya does not know beyond two thingsvictory or death. No third thing. That is ksatriya. In a fighting, if I do not gain victory, then I must die. Two things. That is ksatriya spirit. Whenever there is fight between the two ksatriya, one must die. That is last word. No compromise. Jarasandha and Bhima, fighting for twenty-eight days, in the evening they were friends, but the fighting went on until one is dead. That is ksatriya's fighting. Where is that spirit now? I think in Europe also there was the knights.
Gargamuni: Chivalry.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Well known for chivalrous behavior. Very gallant.
Prabhupada: Hm. One of them must die. That is ksatriya spirit. No compromise. And it will go on until one is dead. That is chivalry. Chivalry?
Hari-sauri: Chivalry, yes.
Nanda-kumara: Some of our devotees have got that spirit, some of our men. Kesava has sometimes taken ten men at a time. Once in San Francisco at Ratha-yatra some men were attacking the Deity, throwing rocks.
Prabhupada: Accha? When?
Nanda-kumara: Kesava was picking... In San Francisco about four years back.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Nanda-kumara: Black men.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Nanda-kumara: Kesava was picking them up over his head and throwing them across cars. Ten men. He took all of them, only himself. Finished all of them. He didn't kill them, but he stopped them. He said he felt Lord Nrsimhadeva helping him. But he was fearless.
Prabhupada: He is robust also, like ksatriya, Kesava, Karandhara's brother. All right, you may go. So that...?
Gargamuni: In this letter they have asked for six persons, five including yourself. I think if we send a few more by vehicle, by car, vehicles, then we can bring maybe ten or twenty more, and we can have big programs. Five men are not enough.
Prabhupada: So do that. He'll do.
Gargamuni: So I can give the names.
Svarupa Damodara: Okay. Give me the names and passport numbers so that we can get the inner pass.
Prabhupada: So immediately do it.
Gargamuni: Yes. And you can say, "Five, plus one by plane." 'Cause even if we go, we have to bring books, and you cannot bring so many books on the plane.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, no.
Gargamuni: So we can bring these by road. There is a road there.
Svarupa Damodara: That will be nice, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So arrange for this.
Svarupa Damodara: As many devotees...
Gargamuni: From Calcutta to Imphal by road we can go.
Prabhupada: So he'll take the party. So manage tomorrow.
Gargamuni: And we can carry all the books and everything by road.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Do that. [break].
Svarupa Damodara: So about a week will be all right, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: That will be nice.
Prabhupada: Our Mayapura program finishes when?
Gargamuni: The last day is the eighth. And then to Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: Eighth March?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: So when you expect to go there?
Svarupa Damodara: Right after Mayapura festival, whenever Srila Prabhupada is ready after Mayapura festival. Any date will be suitable.
Prabhupada: So Vrndavana we may not go? What is the wrong there?
Hari-sauri: About a week.
Gargamuni: Yes. 'Cause when does monsoon start here? In June? Starts very early.
Svarupa Damodara: Ah, yes. In June.
Gargamuni: So we have to go before. That gives us...
Hari-sauri: We don't have to be in Bombay for any reason though, now, because the opening is not going to take place till late.
Prabhupada: So if just after Mayapura festival, if you go to...
Gargamuni: From Calcutta.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pradyumna: You're going to go to Haridaspur after that? Or no?
Prabhupada: That we can go later on. This is very important. Manipur we want to make a very strong center, because it is Vaisnava state.
Gargamuni: And ksatriyas.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas.
Gargamuni: We can raise an army over there.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Gargamuni: To protect the temples from the demons.
Prabhupada: So in March, if we go...
Svarupa Damodara: It will be nice in March.
Prabhupada: By the middle?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, sometime in the middle.
Prabhupada: Then we can arrange.
Svarupa Damodara: The climate, the weather, will be very nice.
Prabhupada: Very nice. So make that arrangement
Gargamuni: All right. And we can go by road.
Prabhupada: Yes. You go by road, and we go by plane. Or all of us, we can go by road. Is it possible? No.
Gargamuni: Well, the roads are not so good.
Svarupa Damodara: A flight from here is only 220 rupees. And they're paying for six people, round trip.
Prabhupada: Five hundred per head.
Svarupa Damodara: Ah, yes. About five hundred, a little less.
Hari-sauri: That's very nice.
Prabhupada: So make that arrangement. We shall go. Very good.
Gargamuni: And maybe from there, on our way by road, we know some people in Shillong. And maybe from Imphal you can go to Shillong for some programs, in Shillong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: 'Cause that is important city, very big city.
Prabhupada: Shillong is Assam.
Gargamuni: In Meghalaya
Svarupa Damodara: It's now Meghalaya. Yes.
Gargamuni: Now Meghalaya. But it used to be a British capital. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the children. They're not attacking the children. Otherwise they cannot keep four ferocious animal in a place. They'll fight and they will kill one in order to... You were at that time there?
Nanda-kumara: No. I was in...
Prabhupada: So you keep this later on, do the needful. (end)

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