Conversation on Train to Allahabad

January 11, 1977, India
Ramesvara: We are going out to sell our books, and even if the person does not want to buy, we are insisting that they buy.
Prabhupada: This is our duty. That is our duty.
Ramesvara: He thinks it is too aggressive.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, that is your temperament, because everything has got degree according to the man. So we should not worry. This is very nice, that we are imploring.
Ramesvara: So his conclusion was that all the people who we are selling books to, they do not like us. That was his conclusion. So I said that if they do not like us, then why is our book sales increasing? We started off selling two hundred thousand magazines a month. Now one million a month. So if you say that people do not like us...
Prabhupada: Not two hundred thousand.
Trivikrama: Twenty.
Hari-sauri: Ten thousand.
Prabhupada: Began with five thousand.
Ramesvara: And we said that people are writing us so many letters ordering our books by mail. So you say do not like us, but we say they love us.
Prabhupada: What was his reply?
Ramesvara: On every point he was defeated. Then this Reverend from the Lutheran Church, he said that we have invented this Krsna religion. He said that Krsna is an ordinary man who is a sex symbol, having so many women, gopis, wives, and that we are saying that He is God. And this is heresy, he told us, a concoction. So he was defeated in different ways also. And at the end he had to admit that "The only way to find out is if you buy their books, so everyone go buy their books and see for yourself."
Prabhupada: No, even taking it that Krsna is after sex, then if sex is bad, then why you are after sex? The whole world is going on after sex. How you can deny it?
Ramesvara: He says that sex is not for God.
Prabhupada: Why? If sex if not there in God, then how it comes? If God created everything, so God did not create sex?
Ramesvara: They think it means we are saying God has a material body, because they associate sex with material body.
Prabhupada: Material body has no sex. A dead man does not enjoy sex. Do you think that a dead man enjoys sex? Suppose a beautiful girl-dead. Will you accept for sex? Then why do you take that sex is for the body? (train noises) "Sex if for the material body" is not the fact. When the soul is not there, where is sex?
Ramesvara: They consider sex to be his lower nature, animal nature.
Prabhupada: No. Everything is..., becomes animal nature when it is perverted, when it is contaminated.
Ramesvara: They do not have any conception of the positive.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Ramesvara: They have no conception of pure life. So they think that it's just...
Prabhupada: If they have no conception, we should give them conception that the body is dead, decomposed, then where is the sex? Where is the inclination? Similarly, the soul originally... As it is said in the Vedanta-sutra, that "Everything is coming from Brahman." Athato brahma jijnasa: "Now let us talk about Brahman." This is the meaning of athato brahma-jijnasah. Then next verse is..., sutra, code-janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. And Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. So unless sex comes from God... It may be perverted in the material world. That is another thing. But originally, pure sex must be there in God. Otherwise how it comes? Everything is emanating from the Supreme. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So how you can say there is no sex? Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains that janmady asya, adi-rasa. Adi. Adi-rasa means sex enjoyment. So he has explained that sex has come from... Because we have used perverted sex, we have got a very bad idea. But actually sex is there in the original. Otherwise there is no question of madhurya-rasa. Hladini-sakti. There is no question of sex. You do not understand Absolute. The opposition party will inquire you, but sex is originally from Brahman. That is why...
Ramesvara: His argument was that when Krsna was here, He was having friendship with the gopis, who were married to other men.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: This is immoral.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: God never acts in an immoral way.
Prabhupada: So that you have made, immoral. Because if He is the proprietor, then He is the proprietor of everything. You have accepted one woman who belongs to Krsna. You are immoral. He is the original proprietor of everything, and everything belongs to Him, but He has given you one woman. Tena tyaktena. But no woman belongs to you. So you should stop connection with women. It is immoral. Otherwise every woman belongs to Krsna. How you can use Krsna's property? That is the disease, that we are trying to enjoy Krsna's property. Krsna's the proprietor. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva... [Bg. 5.29]. He's the bhokta, He's the enjoyer. How you can enjoy Krsna's property? That is immoral. And therefore you shall be punished. You are being punished. Because we are encroaching upon Krsna's property illegally, therefore we are suffering. Krsna is moral, you are utilizing unauthorized, using this material...
Ramesvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women.
Prabhupada: No. Because they have not studied Krsna, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Krsna comes to show you that in the Vaikuntha, Goloka Vrndavana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been found. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?"
Ramesvara: They say that when one man has many different women, then that is immoral.
Prabhupada: No, first of all answer. Suppose you are a big man, but you are product of sex. Are you born differently or through sex? What is the answer?
Ramesvara: Sex.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sex is not bad. When it is misused, that is the defect. Otherwise, sex is not...
Ramesvara: The Western conception is that one man can only have one woman.
Prabhupada: Why? If he can produce many big men, he can have hundreds of women. But you cannot do that. Therefore you are restrained. You are bad. You better restrain. Don't have sex, because you'll produce cats and dogs. But one who is able to produce great brain, great philosophers, he should produce hundreds. You do not know how to produce good brain. Therefore you stop! Don't produce cats and dogs. For you it is "Stop." You do not know how to use sex. Therefore you should stop. [break] You should not any more use sex. But one who can produce better brains should have hundreds of times. You must know how to produce. That is Vedic civilization, dharmah samskara idam...(?) It is not a secrecy, how to produce brain. And because brain is not produced, therefore there is agitation, that they have no brain. They do not know the value of this Krsna consciousness movement. You have been produced like cats and dogs; therefore you cannot appreciate. Therefore you should stop. But one who has power to produce brain, to produce Krsna conscious children, they should be use. Foodstuff is forbidden for a person who cannot digest. One who can digest food, he must eat sumptuously. There is no restriction for him. Food is not bad. One who cannot digest, it is bad for him. This is the conclusion. What is food for one is poison for another. If you cannot use sex power how to use it for better purposes, you should not use sex. What is that verse that Krsna says? Sarva-yonisu kaunteya... [Bg. 14.4].
Prabhupada: Aham bija-pradah pita. Tasmin garbham vadamy aham. Garbham vadamy aham. [break] ...further condition, one who thinks there is no good or bad. Everything is bad. He is thinking, "I am your friend..."
Indian man: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Good explanation-stool. Stool, this side or that side... [break] More opposition there will be, more we have to defend.
Ramesvara: It's forcing us to become expert in different fields.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: You said, "Take the opportunity to be well advertised."
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Ramesvara: So we have to scheme in so many different ways to take advantage of this. (train stops) [break] ...friends with all the newspaper, television and radio people. Already in Los Angeles they know us by our first names, and we know them by their first names. There is some familiarity.
Prabhupada: Intimate with...
Ramesvara: And there's also a chance to meet government leaders.
Prabhupada: Someway or other, it is becoming popular. (chuckles) Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Krsna consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of...
Prabhupada: No, no. We shall... If people become Krsna conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.
Hari-sauri: Simplified.
Prabhupada: Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple.
Ramesvara: Completely?
Prabhupada: No, at least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...
Ramesvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem—unemployment.
Prabhupada: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts)
Ramesvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs(?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. [break] ...their so many departments will be closed.
Ramesvara: It's possible in India but not in America.
Prabhupada: Why?
Ramesvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards. Prabhupada: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.
Ramesvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world...
Prabhupada: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom?
Ramesvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time.
Prabhupada: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?
Ramesvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day...
Prabhupada: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brahmanas, ksatriyas, not for anyone, sudras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.
Ramesvara: But in America...
Prabhupada: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brahmana class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, ksatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brahmanas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brahmana class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. [break] It has become very much complicated.
Ramesvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? Anarthas. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things.
Ramesvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.
Prabhupada: "What we'll do?" (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Krsna and dance here. (train stops) What is this nonsense?
Ramesvara: It seems that if one day the Krsna conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America...
Prabhupada: That we want.
Ramesvara: ...we will have to tolerate all these things—cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things.
Prabhupada: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.
Ramesvara: Very gradual.
Prabhupada: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education.
Hari-sauri: We have to make them devotees.
Ramesvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take prasada.
Jagadisa: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kirtana and prasadam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That's why they...
Prabhupada: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.
Ramesvara: But they will not give up sex life.
Prabhupada: No, no. I don't say that you give up sex life.
Ramesvara: That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They're thinking like that, "We require," naturally. First of all they'll be... If they advance in Krsna consciousness, they will stop sex life. Yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna... If they're really Krsna conscious, they'll have no more taste for sex life. That is...
Hari-sauri: But that position is not very easily attainable.
Prabhupada: No, that is not easy. Therefore we say, "Restrict this." And this will be possible if he follows our program.
Ramesvara: You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Krsna conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmis still.
Prabhupada: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasada distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular. Everything will be... Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].
Jagadisa: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Krsna consciousness will be widespread.
Ramesvara: That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be...
Jagadisa: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician?
Ramesvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions.
Prabhupada: That's a fact.
Ramesvara: In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia.
Jagadisa: But Krsna consciousness knowledge...
Prabhupada: In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory.
Hari-sauri: They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small.
Prabhupada: Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism.
Ramesvara: So when the Krsna consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?
Prabhupada: It is due to quality of the leaders.
Ramesvara: But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Krsna conscious?
Prabhupada: No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.
Ramesvara: So that means the whole mass population...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Only then will Krsna conscious government...
Prabhupada: No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see.
Hari-sauri: The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jagadisa: Krsna consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it's very simple.
Prabhupada: Simple and it is natural also.
Hari-sauri: The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they'll naturally take.
Prabhupada: Our leaders must be very good.
Hari-sauri: That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there.
Prabhupada: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone...
Ramesvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.
Prabhupada: It is not church.
Ramesvara: But they think of us...
Prabhupada: Not stereotyped church.
Ramesvara: But they think of us as a religion.
Prabhupada: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture.
Ramesvara: For example, this group, this new record, Golden Avatar record...
Prabhupada: That may be for a certain class.
Ramesvara: It can become very popular, but if they find out it is Hare Krsna, they will think it is religion and they will not buy it. But if we do not mention that it is Hare Krsna right at the beginning...
Prabhupada: Either you mention or not mention, unless they realize that it is good...
Ramesvara: Well, that they'll realize when they hear it. Just like our book distributors. They're not dressing as Hare Krsna devotees; therefore they are successful. As soon as the people see that they are Hare Krsna devotees, they do not want religion.
Prabhupada: No... Suppose a military dress... Then there are different dresses. When it is understood properly, dress is immaterial. The military dress... Everyone knows that their business is to kill. That does not mean they are hated. Similarly, people see, and when they understand, that is the process.
Jagadisa: In the Krsna book, when Kamsa was being a little lenient with Vasudeva, Narada Muni thought to speed things up, so he instigated Kamsa to become frightened about Vasudeva and Devaki and their children. So similarly, it appears that in order to speed up Krsna consciousness's infiltration and overtaking this materialistic society, that all of these brainwashing charges and...
Prabhupada: It has got... The chanting has got spiritual power. That will rectify everything. Even there is misunderstanding, it will be rectified. That is spiritual power.
Ramesvara: The chanting for the mass of people is by reading your books.
Prabhupada: That will rectify everything. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. All misunderstanding gone away.
Ramesvara: We have to be very clever.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Ramesvara: In America it requires being very clever to get them to read your books. Even if they buy millions of books, there's no guarantee that they're reading it. So we have to make other kinds of propaganda.
Prabhupada: No, at least it is expected they will read: "What is this book I have purchased? Let me see." Reading, of course, meant for intelligent class.
Hari-sauri: Well, just like this radio show, there were so many things said, but at the end, even the man who was blaspheming said, "Well, I guess we'll just have to read your books and find out what it's about." So if people hear a (sic:) controvity and we're arguing one way, they argue another way, then if the book's there, they'll naturally want to read it just to see actually what's the fact.
Ramesvara: We are starting a new radio show again in America. Formerly we had a show called "The Krsna Show." So we're starting it again, and it will be nationwide. And there will be a lot of controversy.
Prabhupada: Yes. We have to take advantage of the modern medium of publicity.
Ramesvara: Radio and even television.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Everyone watches television. If they see it on television it is—"That's a fact."
Prabhupada: We have to show how we are eating, how we are sleeping, how we are talking. Hare Krsna. (japa)
Ramesvara: The only hope is if Krsna gives us the intelligence—because we're so stupid.
Prabhupada: Krsna has already given you. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is simple truth. Believe in Krsna. That means Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says is truth. That's all. This is intelligence: "Whatever Krsna says, that is truth."
Hari-sauri: Even if one is not so clever, still, if he simply repeats and presents Krsna, then that's enough.
Prabhupada: Firm faith. Firm faith: "Whatever Krsna says is all right."
Hari-sauri: Because ultimately Krsna is the doer of everything.
Prabhupada: Sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrdha niscaya. This is basic platform, that "What Krsna says, that is truth." Krsna bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya: "If I follow Krsna, then my business is complete." This is intelligence. Now... We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas-hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice.
Hari-sauri: To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness.
Prabhupada: Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in... Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm. (background talking)
Hari-sauri: He's just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive. And also we have to use modern farming techniques because we have so few men to run the farms.
Prabhupada: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.
Hari-sauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it's ready to do that?
Prabhupada: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Krsna. (japa)
Ramesvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.
Prabhupada: Therefore I am... Farms.
Ramesvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Krsna consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.
Prabhupada: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindaban.
Ramesvara: Many people... Most people in the world, they are grhamedhis, and they cannot give it up so easily.
Prabhupada: "No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain grhamedhi."
Jagadisa: New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Jagadisa: There has to be some modern convenience.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Then we shall do that.
Ramesvara: But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don't want to give it up.
Prabhupada: (train slows down) What is the nonsense? No, there is a station? No station.
Jagadisa: Why does this train keep stopping? (train stops)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Jagadisa: Why does the train keep stopping?
Prabhupada: Who is this gentleman?
Prabhupada: Oh, Pradyumna.
Ramesvara: Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways.
Prabhupada: But you said that there is unemployment also.
Ramesvara: To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them...
Prabhupada: So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.
Ramesvara: Yes. But for the mass population...
Prabhupada: Well, gradually you will increase and...
Ramesvara: We have to give them something that they can do in their home.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple.
Prabhupada: No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.
Jagadisa: On the farm.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: For those who are unemployed, that's attractive.
Jagadisa: But for those who are already employed...
Ramesvara: But most people have jobs.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Ramesvara: Many people already have their jobs and their families.
Prabhupada: All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come.
Ramesvara: But what...? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of...
Prabhupada: That job... They will be very soon jobless. Don't worry. (laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come. Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they'll be jobless.
Hari-sauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this.
Prabhupada: They may come or not. We don't care for it. Let us establish an ideal society. That is the...
Jagadisa: If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Krsna conscious?
Prabhupada: And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train... And as soon as there is—what is called?—bottle-neck, they become very much disturbed: "How to go to the office?" Where is well-being?
Ramesvara: Say, the Christian religion... The Christian religion has millions of followers.
Prabhupada: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower.
Ramesvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.
Prabhupada: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you'll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It's not at all religion. It's simply rubber-stamp.
Ramesvara: No. But if we had many people, then gradually we could help them become Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: But I think they all... One thing that scares people is that we ask too much...
Prabhupada: Oh, that is...
Ramesvara: ...at the beginning. We are asking too much.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So if we ask just a little bit, then gradually we increase.
Prabhupada: No, little bit we say, that "You come, chant Hare Krsna and take prasada."
Jagadisa: "And read our books."
Prabhupada: Suppose you are illiterate, you cannot. But you can do this—"Come here, chant Hare Krsna and take prasadam."
Ramesvara: That is a big misunderstanding in America. People think that to be a Hare Krsna you have to give up everything.
Prabhupada: That... Yes, you have to give up everything which is bad. Do you think drinking is very good?
Ramesvara: (chuckling) No.
Prabhupada: So if I say, "You have to give it up," so what is the wrong there?
Ramesvara: But they feel that unless they give up everything all at once, they cannot become members of the Krsna movement.
Prabhupada: No, you'll automatically give...
Ramesvara: Gradually he'll automatically...
Prabhupada: He'll give up.
Hari-sauri: (train starts to move again) First thing is to begin the positive process. Then the negative process will follow along.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. If he understands it is very nice to chant, dance, and take prasadam, they'll give up.
Ramesvara: Many people think that if you become a Hare Krsna you have to shave your head.
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Ramesvara: But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us.
Prabhupada: No, you save so much barbers' expenses. (laughter)
Hari-sauri: So much inconvenience for washing.
Ramesvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people.
Prabhupada: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life.
Ramesvara: But we want them to chant Hare Krsna. That's the main thing.
Prabhupada: Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that "These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely."
Ramesvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: We say... We say that, that we simply say, that "You change your consciousness."
Ramesvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness.
Prabhupada: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.
Ramesvara: It's our choice.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: As a person becomes more purified, then he'll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to...
Prabhupada: Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.
Ramesvara: Ultimately, it is the best thing.
Prabhupada: If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in.
Ramesvara: I have been studying this record business in the last month or two.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Ramesvara: I've been studying the record business in America. People spend more money on records than they do on books. In general people are buying more records than books.
Prabhupada: (aside:) Give them some seat. Is there any carpet? Bring something.
Hari-sauri: What time do you want to take prasadam, Srila Prabhupada? It's 8:25 now.
Prabhupada: Whenever... You take?
Hari-sauri: Well, we'll all take in that other carriage, and you can eat undisturbed. I'll remain here or whatever you want.
Prabhupada: I may take little later.
Hari-sauri: Well, we can take later on.
Ramesvara: So I found out that people spend more money on records than on books in America. That means that if we sell our record in the store, it can bring us a lot of income. In general, people spend more money on records.
Prabhupada: So you get more income. For using it, let them come and take prasadam. Don't accumulate money.
Prabhupada: Get money and spend it.
Ramesvara: Prasada distribution is the best thing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: There was a big parade in Los Angeles called the Rose Bowl, one million people. So we made ten thousand bags of peanuts and raisins and called it "Govinda's Nuts 'n' Raisins." We were tossing it to the crowd, and they were going, "Hare Krsna! Here! Krsna!" They were begging for it.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Ramesvara: We could have passed out prasada for one million people if we had had enough money.
Prabhupada: Yes. Earn money like that.
Ramesvara: It costs a lot of money.
Prabhupada: Either produce food in the farm or earn money and purchase, but give prasadam.
Ramesvara: We saw it, that they know it was Krsna prasada, and they were standing up in the crowds, "Krsna! Here!" and begging for it.
Prabhupada: (laughs) So they have at least chanted "Krsna." That is our profit.
Ramesvara: And everyone liked it. And we were giving it out for free. That they very much appreciated.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Everyone else is taking their money, but when we give them prasada for free, they very much appreciate it.
Prabhupada: So do that. There is no need of accumulating money and pay income tax and botheration. Spend it. Always remain empty pocket.
Ramesvara: So I was thinking to develop this record group so we can make lots of money.
Prabhupada: You make lots of money and spend lots of money. Don't keep it in the pocket. What is the use of keeping? No income.
Ramesvara: So our only interest is to spend it as fast as we get it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spend it for distribution. They'll say, "Krsna, give us prasada!" And that is our triumph. They chant and "Krsna." That's all right. "Take prasada."
Ramesvara: So I'm encouraging them to make more records like the "Change of Heart."
Prabhupada: We are not dry, simply talking philosophy. "Take prasada. Eat sumptuously."
Ramesvara: In America, Srila Prabhupada, if people become followers of a particular music group, then they take their message and their life-style very seriously. Just like when the people were following the Beatles, and then the Beatles became involved with meditation, so this made it very popular in America. If the group becomes... If the music group becomes popular, then whatever they do, everyone follows. So I am thinking that we can make this music group, Golden Avatar, very popular. Then everyone will find out that they believe in reincarnation and chanting Hare Krsna, and everyone will follow.
Prabhupada: Yes, something "Krsna, Krsna" music must be there.
Ramesvara: Now, to make this group very popular, they have to have Western dress.
Prabhupada: Never mind.
Ramesvara: That's no problem.
Prabhupada: No.
Ramesvara: And they have to have long hair or wigs, or else they grow it. But somehow or other, they cannot be shaven-headed Hare Krsnas.
Prabhupada: Long hair is not... We should not do that.
Ramesvara: They have to have wigs then.
Prabhupada: Why wigs?
Ramesvara: Because in America all the musicians have hair, because that way people become attracted to them.
Prabhupada: No, we cannot take hair. That is not possible. We cannot become hippies.
Ramesvara: No, not hippies. So then, rather than growing their hair, they should wear wigs. Just like our book distributors do not grow their hair long, but they wear wigs.
Prabhupada: But do you mean to say unless you have long hairs, they will not hear your song?
Ramesvara: Medium.
Prabhupada: That's not. If they like your song, it doesn't matter whether you have long hairs or not.
Ramesvara: The main thing is they cannot be wearing sikha and shaved head.
Prabhupada: That must be there.
Ramesvara: But when they make public appearances, they have to be in disguise.
Prabhupada: Make public to become gentlemen. Formerly they had no long hairs. They dressed like gentlemen. That we cannot do.
Ramesvara: So it doesn't have to be very long. But I don't think it will become popular unless they are in disguise, wearing Western clothes and a little bit of hair.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. But formerly your father, grandfather, they had no long hair.
Ramesvara: No, they will not dress like hippie. They will dress nicely.
Prabhupada: Then that is allowed. But we cannot imitate the hippies.
Ramesvara: No. I'm just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhoti.
Prabhupada: No, dhoti, I don't say. You have nice coat-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that "You put on dhoti." But those who are sannyasis, brahmacaris, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyasi.
Hari-sauri: The wigs he's suggesting are just short ones, short hair wigs.
Ramesvara: Yeah. As long as it's not hippy, it is all right. It has to be attractive. Gentlemen. I have taken this record, "Change of Heart," to the biggest record companies in America, and they are very encouraging. They think that we have got a very wonderful message.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact.
Ramesvara: They are astonished at the..., the words to the songs.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.
Ramesvara: I think if this group is... If this is done...
Prabhupada: Enechi ausadhi maya nasibara lagi. Our message is to kill the maya. This is wonderful message, undoubtedly. Enechi ausadhi maya nasibara lagi, hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi: "Take this hari-nama." It is very important message.
Ramesvara: In America, say a music group becomes popular, very popular. Then automatically, every time they make their record album, one million people will buy it in the stores without any salesmen. Automatically one million. It's considered very popular.
Prabhupada: Yes. So make records "Krsna, Krsna."
Ramesvara: And for each record our profit is $2.50. So $2.50 times one million records becomes millions of dollars.
Prabhupada: Spend it for prasada distribution. Don't squander it. Every cent should be utilized for Krsna, not for sense gratification.
Ramesvara: Now, some of the money could be sent to India for ISKCON Food Relief.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: That would be very good.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That will make our movement very popular in India.
Ramesvara: They're always complaining that there's not enough money for food distribution in India.
Prabhupada: So kindly send me as much as possible. Therefore these farming projects will be very nice.
Ramesvara: That'll be great, if we can use the money... Do you think I should set up a separate account for the records, so that all the profit is used for food distribution?
Prabhupada: Why not? Very good idea.
Ramesvara: So that will be a special means of raising money for prasada.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: This idea will be very popular with the devotees.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So now you can distribute...
Hari-sauri: Take prasada... (indistinct) [break] (train stops)
Ramesvara: That's the British propaganda, that they came to India and made India more civilized.
Prabhupada: This is civilization, that running, congested, hanging on. These rascals...
Ramesvara: Their famous phrase was "The white man's burden."
Prabhupada: Unless they made such propaganda, how they could stay? They must give some plea that "I am staying for their benefit." That was the propaganda all through. And any Indian who would agree to say in the League of Nations and when there is conference, "Yes, we are so much benefited," he would be made secretary, governor. The flatterer, he would be made governor.
Ramesvara: So they kicked the British out, but they still have the British system.
Prabhupada: They have learned this. They have been accustomed... And by nature they are not, I mean to say, dovetailed to this system of life.
Hari-sauri: Somehow or another, they just can't do it. They can't live like that.
Prabhupada: And now we are going to Kumbha Mela, a religious assemble. In the Western countries you don't find so much.
Ramesvara: No. In the 1960's in America they tried to have such assemblies, but they simply were becoming naked and having drugs—LSD, marijuana—in the name of spiritual festival. I remember very prominent festivals in America, but everyone was simply naked. They thought that was spiritual.
Prabhupada: Naked? Fully naked?
Ramesvara: Yes.
Hari-sauri: They would hold the festivals sometimes in the hills with a stream. It was very popular; everybody would go to the stream and bathe naked. And then the TV would come and film. There was one big one that they had in England, and the front pages on all the newspapers was one hippie couple that... Someone had spread some foam everywhere, and in the middle of the foam this hippie couple were naked having sex, and they put the picture in all the papers. This was love and peace.
Prabhupada: I have seen John...
Hari-sauri: John Lennon.
Prabhupada: ...naked.
Ramesvara: Naked. With his wife.
Prabhupada: That picture is in his sitting room. I was talking with him in his sitting room, and fireplace and... Of course, that Chandler Place(?), a very big and glorious picture.
Hari-sauri: Cats and dogs.
Ramesvara: That's changed. America has given that up a little bit. They do not have these big gatherings anymore. The hippie movement in America is stopped.
Prabhupada: What is the next movement?
Hari-sauri: Hare Krsna. (laughs)
Ramesvara: Hare Krsna. They're just waiting now. They are waiting for something to happen.
Hari-sauri: All these religious, what they call the religious cults, came immediately after the hippies. That's the big thing now. There was the growth period for those. Now they're trying to destroy them. Of course, they won't destroy us, but they've succeeded in one or two other groups. [break]
Prabhupada: ...below one person.(?) In the name of religious men, because they are not civilized even, it is further, further. This is going on. Actually there was no such...
Ramesvara: And another thing that came out of the hippie movement is this abortion. Because the whole thing... The slogan was "free sex." So now they have free sex.
Hari-sauri: Women's liberation was another thing.
Ramesvara: All based on sex. Abortion, divorce—everything related to sex has increased.
Hari-sauri: They used to carry signs, "I want the control of my body," the women, the women's liberation.
Prabhupada: That is woman's liberation.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. "I can do with my body whatever I like. Nobody can tell me what to do. If I want to kill my child, I can kill." [break]
Prabhupada: The child has father's..., the life from father's property, and the mother is only giving you shelter. She is not the proprietor. Even in other's, womb of other's wife, a child is born... I give birth to a child in other's wife, that is my child. Mother is considered the field, ksetra. But when I till the ksetra, field, the production is mine. This idea. The land may be yours, but if I plow on it and produce food grains, that is mine. That is not yours. This is the... Even in other's wife, if somebody begets child, the child belongs to the father. There are many instances. [break] Mat-prana-nathas: "Still, you are My Lord." That is love. "My love is conditional. If you do to my liking, then I love you"—that is not love. That is not love; that is business. That business is going on under the name of love. A man and woman—"If you have got pocket filled up with money, I love you. If you have got beauty, then I love you." That is not love. That is lust! They do not know what is love.
Hari-sauri: They have no idea of actually who is God or what is God. They don't know...
Prabhupada: Yes. They make God under his condition. That is not God. God cannot be under your condition.
Hari-sauri: God cannot have sixteen thousand wives. God cannot appear at all.
Ramesvara: They say that if God had all of these things, then He would have revealed them in the Bible.
Prabhupada: Because you cannot, rascal, manage that. That is the difference between him and God. Krsna had sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palaces. You cannot maintain one apartment.
Ramesvara: In the Bible...
Prabhupada: You tell them like that: "You are so poor that you are afraid to maintain even one wife. So how you can be equal with God?"
Hari-sauri: His argument was that...
Prabhupada: No argument! This is fact!
Ramesvara: Yes, this is fact.
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: There is no question of argument.
Ramesvara: No. He's not arguing that.
Prabhupada: You cannot do. You are so poor that you are afraid to marry because you have to take so much responsibility.
Ramesvara: He wants to know, then, why didn't Jesus Christ say all these things about Krsna?
Prabhupada: Jesus may be fool. That doesn't mean everyone should be fool.
Ramesvara: They believe Jesus came to this world to teach people about God.
Prabhupada: "Jesus... Jesus had to speak to rascals and fools like you. Therefore he did not speak." This is the argument. "Because you are such a fool that Jesus said, 'Thou shall not kill'—your first business was to kill him. So you are so nice, advanced men. Now, what he'll speak to you? He knew that you are all rascals. Even the one word you cannot understand, 'Thou shall not kill.' So what you will understand? Therefore Jesus Christ did not say." Give them this answer. Jesus Christ was perfect, but because you are rascals, he did not say, because you could not understand even his one word. You are so intelligent. His commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but your business is to kill him first. How far you are advanced and civilized, just imagine. And you want perfect instruction. You cannot follow even one instruction. That is your position. In this way try to understand. "Jesus had to deal with rascals like you. Therefore he... Even ordinary moral principles, you could not, what to speak of other things." Actually that is the fact. Actually that is the fact. He had to deal with rascals and fools. Is that civilization, that first of all argue, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you were all rascals engaged in killing business. Is that civilized men? Why he said like that? Is that very good philosophy? Mean they were so low class that they had to be stopped first of all, these sinful activities. That also, they could not. This is their position. And for the last two thousand years they could not. Such nice brain. They could not understand even one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are proud of becoming Christian, rascals. "You do not know what is Christianity, what is Jesus Christ. You are all rascals." Tell them like that. What do you think?
Ramesvara: That's indefeatable, undefeatable argument.
Prabhupada: Yes. You could not understand.
Ramesvara: "Thou shall not kill..."
Prabhupada: Although he spoke very cautiously, still you could not do it.
Ramesvara: "Thou shall not commit adultery."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: It's a very good counterattack, that "You try to criticize us, but actually what is your position?" They have no position. That man, he was trying to criticize Krsna as being a concoction or whatever, but we can practically see that his own religion is completely useless.
Prabhupada: No, no, that also I have given. Krsna might have hundreds and thousands, but where is the pregnancy and contraception?
Ramesvara: And abortion.
Prabhupada: So if sex life without this botheration, it is welcome. We welcome that. Sex is enjoyment; that is all right. But here it is condemned because it is entailed with so many botherations.
Hari-sauri: We can practically establish both points.
Prabhupada: Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis—his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. "So it is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied, your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yesam tv anta-gatam papam [Bg. 7.28]. Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years the rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul.
Ramesvara: That is their excuse.
Prabhupada: But who cares for this excuse? It is not scientific. Is there any difference, anatomy and physiology, of the animals and the...
Ramesvara: They do not know what the soul means.
Prabhupada: That's it. Now, when there is opportunity, condemn them like anything. It is opportunity to expose them.
Hari-sauri: We should do that, expose them?
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? When they are attacking, you must attack.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Attack them.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is very practical: "Yes, Krsna enjoyed sex. But where is abortion? Where is contraceptive pill?"
Hari-sauri: Actually, by practical example we can show that by following Krsna, so many people are giving up intoxication, giving up so many sinful activities. But by following your Christian religion, it's not done them any good whatsoever. It's not changed their lives whatsoever. This man, he described our movement as very dangerous. On the radio he said, "This is dangerous," because we're trying to establish Krsna as God and He's not stated in the Bible, and therefore we are very dangerous.
Prabhupada: Christ is described as son of God, but where is the father? That means you are so rascal, you do not care to understand the father. And we are presenting the father, the father of Christ. And you are condemning. You do not know who is the father of Christ.
Ramesvara: His argument was that if God wanted Himself to be known as Krsna, He would have...
Prabhupada: But you do not know the meaning of Krsna. Krsna means "all-attractive." That is God. That is God.
Ramesvara: Yes. I tried to explain. But he said Krsna means that person who appeared in India five thousand years ago. That is Krsna. So he said if God is Krsna, then there would be some evidence in the Bible, but there is no evidence.
Prabhupada: There is ev... There is evidence. Because... But you are so fool that you do not inquire, "If the Christ is son of God, who is God?" They never inquires. Why did you not inquire?
Ramesvara: He said that God spoke to Moses. God did not tell Moses that He was Krsna. He told Moses that He is Jehovah.
Prabhupada: Did Christ say that "Jehovah is my father"?
Ramesvara: That makes it very clear.
Hari-sauri: I can't remember ever seeing... Jesus never used a name. He only spoke about "my father."
Prabhupada: And who is that father? Why did you not...? So here is the father. You should be obliged to us that we are bringing...
Hari-sauri: There are so many names anyway.
Prabhupada: Then why not Krsna?
Hari-sauri: Yes, exactly. Just like Allah means "the great one," so Krsna means "the all-attractive one." It's the same God.
Prabhupada: Krsna was proved, and still He is proved. Who is reading others' book all over the world? Therefore He is God. Where is that book so respected as Bhagavad-gita? Who is printing so many books? Not even Bible. They respected Bible. Why the foreigners are reading Bhagavad-gita? That is the proof that Krsna is God. During the Christmas festival we sold our books greatest number in the history. How many copies Bible you have sold? That is the proof. Here is God. Otherwise why Christians should purchase Bhagavad-gita during Christmas holiday? And because Krsna is God, therefore you have come to fight. Who is going to fight with Jehovah? Who is going to fight with Jehovah movement?
Hari-sauri: Well, just like in the Middle East area, if they want to describe God or if they want to glorify God, they refer to Him as the Almighty One. And that word that means "Almighty One" is Allah. So if in India they want to glorify God by calling Him the All-attractive One, and that word is Krsna, then what is the wrong?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: This is a problem. Because they're such mudhas, as soon as there's a name and a form, they immediately associate with material nature, material personality.
Prabhupada: Give me little tangerine.
Hari-sauri: Tangerine?
Ramesvara: I was just telling Jagadisa that you said you were confident that the Indian government understands that this movement is turning the whole world towards Indian culture. So it seems logical that one day it will endorse us.
Prabhupada: They are endorsing. They stopped cow-killing.
Ramesvara: They are endorsing?
Prabhupada: They have stopped cow-killing.
Ramesvara: They stopped cow-killing. Prabhupada said that it is directly our movement...
Prabhupada: It is not Vinobha Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped.
Ramesvara: They have stopped it because they see we are getting so much support?
Prabhupada: Certainly. (pause) (aside:) No, no. One skinned. (pause) So you have all answers?
Ramesvara: Many answers. You have all the answers.
Prabhupada: No. Therefore I am speaking you how to answer. (long pause) So much land lying vacant. Yajnad bhavanti parjanyah. There is no yajna. Therefore there is no rain. [break] ...and it will increase. Because the people will increase their godlessness, so the rainfall will stop. Now lick up your motorcar. This is going on. Anavrstya durbhiksa dara-piditah. One side, anavrsti, there is no food grain, and government taxation. People will be so harassed, they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. Cannot manage. [break] ...God awakening your country to Krsna consciousness. Someway or other, there is agitation. This agitation must go on and then turn it towards favorable time. Agitation is there. That is good. (japa) [break]
Ramesvara: They say that in the Vedas, Visnu comes first and Krsna is expansion of Visnu, and we have concocted that Krsna is the adi-purusa.
Prabhupada: But he accepted that?
Ramesvara: No, we defeated that argument.
Prabhupada: No, no... [break] The man who says that, so ask him that "You accept this, that Visnu, there is, Supreme, and Visnu's incarnation is Krsna?"
Ramesvara: He accepted it.
Prabhupada: Then I accept you. Then you accept Visnu, Krsna, or this Veda.(?) Then I accept you. So there is no fight. You accept Visnu, Krsna. We accept. That's all.
Hari-sauri: Another one was that even the president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he commented in the Bhagavad-gita that you should not worship Krsna, that the Bhagavad-gita is not for worshiping Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is..., that rascal, Radhakrishnan says. Vyasadeva does not say. Arjuna does not say.
Hari-sauri: But he was the president of India.
Prabhupada: President was therefore kicked out. maya has kicked out on his face. (laughter) Who cares for Radhakrishnan? In India, who cares for Radhakrishnan? They worship Krsna. So therefore they have urinated on the face of Radhakrishnan. Say like that, (laughter) that "Indian people have passed urine on his head, and they are worshiping Krsna. This is Radhakrishnan." Tell him like that. "Who cares for Radhakrishnan?" Do you mean to say they have stopped worshiping Krsna in so many millions of temples? That is the proof: they have passed urine on the face of Radhakrishnan. Is that all right?
Hari-sauri: (laughing) Yes.
Ramesvara: And I found an article in the Time magazine about another translator of Bhagavad-gita, Christopher Isherwood.
Prabhupada: He is rascal, another rascal.
Ramesvara: They have reported that he is a homosexual.
Prabhupada: Just see. Now, who cares for all these nonsense?
Ramesvara: In regards to brainwashing, they claim that our life-style tends to take the devotee and isolate him from the world.
Prabhupada: Yes. We hate to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. In England still, the rich quarter is different from the poor quarter. Is it not?
Hari-sauri: Not so much. It was though, formerly, very strongly.
Prabhupada: Yes. Aristocratic will never live... Even in America, they don't like to live with the blacks.
Prabhupada: (aside:) That child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together."
Jagadisa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gita. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.
Jagadisa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sangat sanjayate kamah.
Ramesvara: They have a list of five or six conditions, and they say if all those conditions are there, then it is a suitable atmosphere for brainwashing. And they say we are imposing those conditions on our members.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are brainwashing from bad to good. That is our business. We are washing the brain from all rascaldom. That is our business. You are... Your brain is filled up with all rubbish things: meat-eating and illicit sex, gambling. So we are washing them. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah-stho abhadrani [SB 1.2.17]. Abhadrani washing. Abhadrani means bad things. The bad things should be washed off. Don't you cleanse your home? Don't you cleanse your room? Is not that brainwashing? So if you wash your room very cleansed, who blames you? But you are so rascal that "Why you are washing this garbage?" you are protesting. You are such an intelligent man. We are washing the garbage; you are protesting, "Why you are washing the garbage?" This is your intelligence. But intelligent men wash the garbage. That is the law of nature, cleanse. That we are doing. According to Vedic civilization, you are actually untouchable. Now we have come to touch you; therefore wash you must first. You are untouchable. In Indian civilization, dog is untouchable, and that is your best friend. So you are not touchable. Therefore we have to wash you. And unless your brain is washed, you cannot understand Krsna. So it is necessary. Is that all right? Dog is your best friend. In India dog is untouchable. So "Man is known by his company." If your best friend is dog, then what you are? We can understand your position because you sleep with dog, you eat with dog, your best friend is dog, so what you are? You must be washed. It is a fact. Every woman, every man, has some dog.
Jagadisa: Dog or cat.
Prabhupada: Mostly dog. So "Man is known by his company." Your constant company is dog, so what you are? These are the way. Actually, according to Vedic... Why they do not allow Europeans in the Jagannatha temple? Because they are untouchable. According to Vedic civilization, Europeans are untouchable. Muslims and..., untouchable. Not only foreigners, even in their own country, those who are not very cleansed, they are untouchable. Another's eatable things, they're untouchable. Just like hog. If you give him halava, he will not take it. He will eat stool. Therefore hog is so abominable. Similarly, in your country there are so many nice foodstuffs. Milk is so abundant. You do not know how to utilize milk. You are cutting the poor animal and the rotten flesh you are... You do not know how to utilize the milk. Milk is nothing but blood. Those who are eating, drinking milk with different varieties of preparation, they are also utilizing the blood. But you are drinking blood and flesh directly. You do not know how to keep the animals alive and supply you constantly the blood and eat it.(?) (Utilize?) That you do not know. You are so uncivilized. The man in the jungle, they eat meat because they do not know—they are not civilized—how to utilize the by-products. So you're now in the same position. You do not know how to utilize the blood of cow scientifically. You are so uncivilized. You become... What is milk? The milk is nothing but blood.
Jagadisa: Even in the Bible...
Prabhupada: No, no. Apart from Bible, I am speaking from practical point of view. What is milk? Milk is blood. If the mother is unhealthy, anemic, you cannot keep. It dries away.(?) Milk is transformed from the blood. That's a fact. Now our cows in New Vrindaban, they are supplying more milk than in other farms. So you do not know how to utilize blood. You are so uncivilized. And you are claiming to be civilized. You are untouchable. You do not know what is the... Yes, in our New Vrindaban the men from other farms, they come. They are surprised. "Milk can give, this much?"(?) You know that? They are uncivilized, cutthroat. And therefore they are now eating better. You are not civilized. Don't talk of anything. First of all be civilized. Give up sin, sinful activities. Then come to understand what is God.
Jagadisa: In the Krsna book you describe that the only person who can't understand Krsna consciousness is the killer of the cow.
Prabhupada: Yes. Animal. Why cow? Any animal.
nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad
bhavausadhac chrotra-mano 'bhiramat
ka uttamasloka-gunanuvadat
puman virajyeta vina pasughnat
[SB 10.1.4]
Unless one is animal-killer, everyone welcomes God. This very word is used, vina pasughnat. Excepting these persons who are animal killers, everyone will welcome Krsna. It is so nasty thing, animal-killing. So you require thoroughly to be washed. Then you'll understand. Actually it is brainwashing. Civilized man, in the presence of so many nice grains, fruits, flowers, vegetables, milk, so many things, and you are eating meat like the man in the jungle? Are you civilized? Does it mean that the fruit, flowers and grains is meant for animals? It is meant for human beings. You do not know how to utilize it. You are in the state of the animals. You kill animals and eat. Don't claim that you are civilized. Therefore your brain requires to be thoroughly washed to become civilized. Therefore your brain requires to be thoroughly washed to become civilized, Krsna conscious. Then talk of civilization. Therefore Jesus Christ first of all requested you "Don't kill." That is also brainwash, cleanse your brain. But you could not take the brainwash. Your brain is congested with so much dirty things that you could not take the instruction of Jesus Christ, and you claim to be Christian. Be ashamed. Don't come forward. Be ashamed. You have no shame even. You are so—what is called?—fool that you do not know what is defective. What is that English proverb? "Fools rush in where angels dare not." You are such a fool that you are running in to obstruct Krsna consciousness, which is... Even the demigods, they aspire after it. You are such a fool. You are rushing in. So we take pity upon you, and therefore we are trying to expand Krsna consciousness. But be sane; don't talk insanity. [break] And here you see big, big scholars that "Yes, here is Indian statement for the whole..." There are many saintly persons. Who cares for your Bible? And Bhagavad-gita all over the world... Even if you take Dr. Radhakrishnan, elected as authority, he has tried to comment on Bhagavad-gita, not on your Bible. Has he done? Who cares for your Bible? He may speak favorably or unfavorably, that is Bhagavad-gita. But he has not spoken a word upon the Bible. Who cares for you? Not only here, all over the world, who is going to take the Bhagavad-gita, er, Bible? And we are selling millions of copies of Bhagavad-gita. That is proof Krsna is God. We can say that we have got at home. Here is God. What do you think?
Ramesvara: When we argue like that, they cannot say anything.
Prabhupada: We must. "No, you have taken Dr. Radhakrishnan authority. Has he commented on Bible? Why not? That is not even worth commenting on." You have to attack like that.
Hari-sauri: If President Nixon had written a commentary on the Bible, no one in America would accept it. Then why should they accept Radhakrishnan's?
Prabhupada: No, Radhakrishnan may say so, but who has accepted? You are, because you are a fool. Same argument, that people have passed urine on his face, and they are worshiping. They have not stopped Krsna worshiping because Radhakrishnan has said, restriction. (?) Who cares for him? Vrndavana, there are five thousand temples. Every day thousands of people are coming. We have started Krsna-Balarama temple very recently, and thousands of men are coming. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? Daye mane napa ni more (?) "Nobody cares for him; he becomes leader." What is the value of such leader? If somebody cares for that person, then he's leader. Nobody cares for him? He's leader for you because you are a rascal. You do not know anything. So he may be leader for men like you, but India... Nobody cares for him. Is it not? Who cares for Radhakrishnan?
Hari-sauri: Nobody mentions Radhakrishnan.
Prabhupada: Who cares for Vivekananda? Who cares for Dayananda? Nobody cares. They are doing their own business. Still, daily two lakhs of contributions in Vaikunthanatha temple, Tirupati, still. Who is paying their money? Ordinary payers. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? India is not so fool that by the words of Radhakrishnan they will stop worshiping Krsna, will not worship Krsna. India, although poverty-stricken, illiterate, but they have got their still... All, millions of people, will come in this Mela. Who cares for Radhakrishnan? There are so many atheists came and gone, things are going on as it is. This is culture.
Ramesvara: Now in the Western countries, the standard of culture and education is coming from the idea of the Renaissance in Europe.
Prabhupada: That is not culture. That is not culture. As soon as you change, that means it is not culture. It is mano-dharma, mental concoction. Culture is never changed, Renaissance and (sic:) Fennaissance.
Ramesvara: This is something that has been constant for many hundreds of years, the idea that a man is learned when he is well-learned, when he is educated in many different fields-literature, art, music.
Prabhupada: That does not mean the original culture will be lost. That is not culture.
Ramesvara: No. But this is their argument, that the standard in America is that you become learned in different fields: science, music, art, literature. But in our Hare Krsna movement we are isolating all these things and simply reading one set of literature-Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And therefore our people cannot speak about art, music.
Prabhupada: Yes. We want to stop your nonsense. That is our mission. Those who are intelligent, they have taken. And you also take. It will take some time.
Ramesvara: Another big argument is regarding the children. They say that "You believe in free choice. So suppose the children grow up and they want to go to college. But you have not sent them to a public school. Therefore they are not eligible for going to college."
Prabhupada: No, it is... They are saved from becoming like you or hippies. You'll become hippie after going to the college, so they are saved. You'll become naked and you'll have, like cats and dogs, sex on the street. But these children are saved.
Ramesvara: But what if they change later on in their life?
Prabhupada: They have become Krsna conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner they are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it.
Ramesvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists.
Prabhupada: First of all you say that we want to stop this nonsense, that is the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dance. You are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But the civilized(?) thing must go on. So we want to stop this. Is that education?
Ramesvara: Now they say if we are thinking of our members to be gentlemen, then why is it when they go to the airports they are bothering so many people?
Prabhupada: They are not bothering; they are educating. You take... A rascal, when he is advised... A thief when he's advised, "Kindly do not become a thief," he takes it botheration, but that is good advice.
Ramesvara: They say it is invasion of privacy.
Prabhupada: Eh? Why privacy?
Ramesvara: They say every man has the right to think the way he wants.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore I have go the right to think like that.
Ramesvara: So if I don't want to hear your philosophy, why are you imposing?
Prabhupada: It is not imposing. It is good philosophy. We are canvassing, "Take it. You'll be benefited." And they are being benefited. Those who are reading, they are being benefited. Just like we are canvassing. We are Americans. You are not benefited. Therefore you are... Our Guru Maharaja, Indian, he is not coming. We are doing, because we are benefited. We know we are benefited. Therefore it must be spread. That is our success. "Good thing must be given." Why you are advertising big, big order(?), "Please come and purchase Ford car," "Purchase Chevrolet car"? Yearly. Why you are canvassing?
Ramesvara: Because we think it is nice. To make money.
Prabhupada: Ah. Why you are imposing your so-called goodness to others and spending so much money? Why you are doing?
Ramesvara: It is not physical. It is just mental.
Prabhupada: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?
Ramesvara: It is a booming business, big business.
Prabhupada: Our business is sai vai manah krsna-padaravindayoh [SB 9.4.18]. First of all is mentality. Man-mana mad-bhakto. Mental cure, then physically devotee. "Always think of Me." This is the cure, Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. Beginning: always think of Krsna. This is the treatment. It is proved. Mentally he'll be cured. And then physically after. Nice (indistinct). They do not know how things are happening. (japa) Thinking, feeling, willing. First of all thinking, then feeling, then willing, then working. [break] ...and spending for military strength. They are not performing yajna, so how there will be rainfall? There will be warfare, devastation. Most rubbish civilization, modern misleading, soul-killing. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Krsna's business. So we have to do our business. Let the dogs bark on. We don't care for it. If we remain sincere to Krsna, that is our victory, not the result. Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana. We have to act according to direction of Krsna, that much. We want to see good result. Even there is no good result, we don't mind. We must be sincere to Krsna that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Krsna. That is our duty. As servant, we shall not cheat the master. Result, no result—that depends on Krsna. We should not be sorry if there is not result. Never mind. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that "I have brought to Benares hari-nama, but here they are full of Mayavadis. So if it is not sold, all right, I shall take it back." Caitanya Mahaprabhu said. So we should not be anxious whether the things are sold or not. But we must do our best canvassing work: "Please take it." That is our duty. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna... [break]
Ramesvara: ...mukta-sangah samacara: "Work done as a sacrifice for Visnu has to be performed. Otherwise, work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage." Should I read the purport? Purport. "Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that the purpose can be fulfilled. Yajna means Lord Visnu or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu. The Vedas enjoin: yajno vai visnuh. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajnas or directly serves Lord Visnu. Krsna consciousness is therefore performance of yajna as it is prescribed in this verse. The varnasrama institution also aims at this for satisfying Lord Visnu. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58] (Visnu Purana 3.8.8.). Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Visnu. Any other work done in this material world will be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore one has to work in Krsna consciousness to satisfy Krsna or Visnu, and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage. This is the great art of doing work, and in the beginning this process requires very expert guidance. One should therefore act very diligently under the expert guidance of a devotee of Lord Krsna, or under the direct instruction of Lord Krsna Himself, under whom Arjuna had the opportunity to work. Nothing should be performed for sense gratification, but everything should be done for the satisfaction of Krsna. This practice will not only save one from the reaction of work but will also gradually elevate one to transcendental loving service of the Lord, which alone can raise one to the kingdom of God." [break]
Prabhupada: The Bhagavad Gita, there are many, but why ours is selling so many? Because we have named "As It Is". Is that the reason?
Ramesvara: The main reason is because our men are pushing.
Prabhupada: That is the reason.
Hari-sauri: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy.
Prabhupada: Canvassing. Canvassing.
Ramesvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. [break] "While we are living, let it be comfortable."
Prabhupada: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect.
Ramesvara: For the colleges, they actually accept the superior quality, but for the general class of men, it is not a book that they would ordinarily buy.
Prabhupada: Canvassing. Canvassing.
Ramesvara: Yes, because we're canvassing. [break] "While we are living, let it be comfortable."
Prabhupada: So, why don't you make a solution that you'll not die? Then it is perfect.
Ramesvara: "We are working on it."
Prabhupada: That's all right. Then kick on your face. "We are working on it."
Ramesvara: But in the meantime, it should be as convenient as possible to live.
Prabhupada: This is all childish. We cannot accept it. Madmen. In the history there is no such thing, and you are trying. And we have to believe it. These things are believed by rascals, and it is proposed by rascals. Rascals believe it. No intelligence at all.
Ramesvara: In America everyone has a very nice house with home entertainment by television and radio.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Then why they are lying on the street? They have got house, then why they are...
Ramesvara: Big car...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Why, in the Bowery Street, they are lying on the street in stool and urine? Why?
Ramesvara: Formerly they were doing that, but now again they are just living nicely.
Prabhupada: Living nicely on the street. They have no nice place even. What is that? Lions? Go pay one dollar and live there?
Jagadisa: YMCA.
Prabhupada: Something like that. They have no place to live. At night... Whole day they lie down on the street and beg and drink, and at night they pay one dollar and live.
Ramesvara: That's a very small minority of the people.
Prabhupada: Well, there is? Why? You are so rich country, why? Why it is happening? Not small minority.
Ramesvara: And we have our vacations. We can travel anywhere in the world and visit, sightsee.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But you cannot say that everyone is very rich. That is not... We admit your contribution, but... The other day I was saying that aeroplane is contribution, but it is not safe. So long it is flying, it is all right, but any moment... Similarly, this civilization will be contribution like that. It is not safe. Because this life, you are enjoying very good house, very good society, but next life, if you are going to be a tree by nature's law, then what is the value of your this life?
Ramesvara: "But I believe in God. I go to church every Sunday, and I confess."
Prabhupada: But you go to church, but you don't do anything what God says.
Ramesvara: "I am taught that God gave us all of these fruits to enjoy."
Prabhupada: Not to follow His advice. You are so great devotee that you simply enjoy God's gifts, but what He says, you don't follow. You are such a great devotee. "I enjoy my father's property, but I don't care for his advice." (aside:) Ask your mother to learn how to make kachoris from Kuladri. Is that all right? (train slowing) Bulahanipur.(?) Somebody wrote me a letter from this place, Bulahanipur.
Child: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: So give him something. You have got fruit? Fruit? Yes.
Ramesvara: Ek minute. Hare Krsna. Bolo Hare Krsna.
Child: Hare Krsna.
Ramesvara: They'll remember that Krsna fed them. I think we should clean up.
Hari-sauri: There should be a sweeper somewhere.
Prabhupada: No, we do our own business. Why do you wait for sweeper?
Hari-sauri: Yeah, we need a broom.
Prabhupada: You take one paper, that black one there.
Jagadisa: Do you want to take rest, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: (to child) Finished? It's too hot? He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot. He can't eat the samosa. It's too hot.
Prabhupada: Oh. So is there any remaining in...?
Hari-sauri: Puffed rice is finished. But he can't eat the samosa.
Prabhupada: So you can eat. He can take this thing. Hand. Keep that paper and apply it in service. (sweeping noise) Yes. (sounds of door opening, closing, train starts again) The bathroom is free?
Hari-sauri: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness is real religion. Religion cannot be "your religion" and "our religion."
Ramesvara: Yes. They were saying in essence that only the Jew or the Christian, he can represent God. Hare Krsna, he does not represent God.
Prabhupada: Now let us talk why he cannot or why you are the only. First of all you have to ascertain what is religion. Then it will be decided who has got the stock. Let the Christian or the Jews answer this question: What is religion?
Ramesvara: They cannot answer.
Prabhupada: Then you have no religion.
Ramesvara: They do not know the answer. They'll speculate.
Prabhupada: Therefore there is no religion.
Ramesvara: The Christian will say, "The Jew has no answer." And the Christian, he will say, "Religion means to accept Jesus Christ as your savior."
Prabhupada: Why?
Ramesvara: "Because he came to earth as the son of God. He died for your sins."
Prabhupada: Therefore religion means what is given by God, either directly or through His son or through His servant. That is religion. So if you do not know who is God and what He has given, then where is your religion? Religion means the law given by God. So you should know who is God and what law He has given. Then you have religion. You say you do not know what is God.
Ramesvara: This man was saying that in the Bible there is a description of God speaking to Moses and Abraham, and He identified Himself as Jehovah, not Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is the main point, that what God said.
Ramesvara: What God said? He told Abraham to go to Israel and to worship only Him. He said, "There shall be no other Gods. Just Me." And then He told Moses the Ten Commandments.
Prabhupada: So God said that... God must say. So you say God: Jehovah; and we say God: Krsna. What is the wrong?
Ramesvara: "The wrong is that Krsna was a man who lived on earth five hundred thousand years ago and..."
Prabhupada: So Jehovah was God.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So that means He was God, you are man, how you are hearing from Him?
Ramesvara: Because it's in the Bible.
Prabhupada: It's in the Bible. Then, that whatever is the... We can say the same way, "It is in the Bhagavad Gita." What is the wrong there?
Ramesvara: What can be said?
Prabhupada: "This is the Bible," and "This is the Bhagavad-gita."
Ramesvara: "But history documents that Krsna came to earth as a man."
Prabhupada: Yes. So do you mean to say God cannot come as man? And Jehovah came as God?
Ramesvara: "But in the Bible God revealed a certain aspect of Himself, and the personality of Krsna seems to be very different from this."
Prabhupada: In which way different?
Ramesvara: "Because He had all these affairs with the gopis. He was very different."
Prabhupada: God will be just like...
Ramesvara: "And He was a king with sixteen thousand wives. That seems to be very different from the God that is described in the Bible."
Prabhupada: So if God... What is described in the Bible, God symptom, that he has no power to enjoy sixteen thousand wives? He's limited?
Ramesvara: No. He's unlimited.
Prabhupada: Then, sixteen thousand, sixteen millions He can have. Why, if He's unlimited? What is wrong there? If He's unlimited, why sixteen thousand? If He marries sixteen million, sixteen billion, still, it is not sufficient. Otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. Why you restrict God to sixteen or one? God is under your restriction, and He's still unlimited? That means you do not know what is God. You do not know what is God. You are mistaken.
Ramesvara: But very often they will say, "It is not a question of religion that we are concerned with. It is a question of brainwashing and mind control. Your chanting so many hours a day, it's hypnotizing."
Prabhupada: So, what is to you? That is my business. Why do you bother yourself?
Ramesvara: "But you are imposing it on so many young people."
Prabhupada: We must impose. You impose they will not chant. That is your business. We must impose. That is my business. If you have power, you stop them.
Ramesvara: "But you're not giving them a chance to think when they chant so many hours."
Prabhupada: Why shall I give you chance? You are thieves. You are coming to kidnap. Why shall I give you chance? You say to them, as we are saying, that "You chant." They are chanting. You make brainwash. You ask them, "Don't chant." That is your business. But that you cannot do.
Ramesvara: "But by this chanting, they develop a kind of blind faith, and they stop thinking."
Prabhupada: So, what is to you and to your father? Let them do that. Everyone has got freedom.
Ramesvara: But they say that that takes away freedom, because it takes away freedom to think.
Prabhupada: So that is a controversy, that you want to take his freedom and still, you are accusing that, that way.
Ramesvara: Yes, that's actually the fact. The want to take their freedom, but they are accusing us.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if you are sane man, let us sit down. First of all ascertain what is religion. Then we shall see whether your religion is genuine or my religion is genuine. First of all ascertain. Let there be an assembly, that "What is religion?" "We say that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute this." Nobody can manufacture religion. "God is one, and whatever He has given, law, that is religion. Now you refute it?" Give them this challenge.
Ramesvara: "Well we may accept that the Krsna movement is a religion, but..."
Prabhupada: Apart from name-name is not very important. In your country you say water. I say jala, paniya. Does it mean that because I say paniya, it will be different thing? In different countries, in different societies, things are... We say am, you say mango. Does it mean the thing, substance, is different?
Prabhupada: Then why do the rascals say like that? Because we say God, Krsna, therefore He's not. Why is... This is nonsense. I can say in my language, you can say in yours, but God is one. That you have to accept.
Ramesvara: One of their standard arguments is...
Prabhupada: Now, this is... First of all defeat that, that "Why do you stress on name? In different countries, in different societies, the same thing may be called by different names."
Ramesvara: Well, they're saying that the substance is different. Krsna is one...
Prabhupada: The substance is different; then God... There is no God. Either Krsna is not God, Jehovah is not God. Just like gold...
Ramesvara: They say that because Krsna displayed His activities when He was here...
Prabhupada: Yes. God will play. That is God. God is not dead. Your God is dead. Our God is alive. That is the difference. God must be alive. Why God should be dead? [break] So you are under God's control. Then you say whether Jehovah is God or Krsna is God. First of all you must know. You must let us know what do you mean by God. If you describe, "I mean God... by the word God, I mean this," then see whether it is applicable to Jehovah or to Krsna. It is not the name. It is the person and the symptom. Just like water is liquid. So you say water, I say jal. But the liquidity of water is the same. So first of all you know what is the nature of God. Then you may say "Jehovah," I may say "Krsna," another may say something else. It doesn't matter. Water is water. That is liquid. That's all. So first of all ascertain what is the symptom of God. Can we challenge them that "What is the symptom? How do you know that here is God?" Just like we understand here is water.
Ramesvara: Yes, but their idea is all nonsense.
Prabhupada: Therefore prove that "You are rascal, nonsense. You do not know what is God."
Ramesvara: They think that God has nothing to do. He does everything by His thinking. Just like in the Bible it says...
Prabhupada: That why do you say nothing to do, rascal? That is doing. He is doing by thinking; that means...
Ramesvara: Yes. It is said in the Bible He created the world just by His thoughts.
Prabhupada: That means—that's all right—that God is so powerful that He can do by His thinking. We also admit. But that does not mean God is not doing. But He is doing in a finer way. You rascal, you do in a grosser way. God does in a finer way. But that does not mean God is inactive.
Ramesvara: And he was criticizing our description of God coming as a boar...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is God.
Ramesvara: ...and God coming as a tortoise...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is God.
Ramesvara: ...and a fish, half man, half lion.
Prabhupada: That means God.
Ramesvara: He was criticizing that this is mythology.
Prabhupada: So that means you do not know what is God. God can come as He likes. That is God. But you rascal, you do not know what is God; therefore you are restricting, "He cannot come in this way." That is your restriction. Why God should be restricted? (knock) Yes?
Ramesvara: Come in.
Indian man: Gurudeva, this carriage foreman is having some message from Gupta Saheb.
Indian man (2): Namaskara.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Namaskara. [break] So rascal... [break] God is unlimited, and you are a teeny man. Why you want to limit God by your dictation?
Ramesvara: He says yes, it's possible...
Prabhupada: How it is possible?
Ramesvara: Because God is unlimited, these things are possible, but...
Prabhupada: Then why do you say that He cannot come as fish, He cannot...?
Ramesvara: Because if He wanted us to believe in these things He would have told us on Mount Sinai, and He would have told us through Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I am the only way..."
Prabhupada: But that I have already answered, that...
Ramesvara: Jesus Christ says, "I am the only way."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. But Jesus Christ did not say to you because you are rascal. You cannot follow even his one instruction. That is the answer. It is not the foolishness of Jesus Christ. Because you are so rascal, you cannot understand it. Therefore he avoided you rascals. Because whatever he has said, you cannot follow. So what you will understand? Therefore he stopped speaking.
Jagadisa: They killed him after three years.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are so rascal that his personal instruction is...
Ramesvara: Three years?
Jagadisa: Three years' preaching and they killed him.
Prabhupada: Why he will waste his time to rascals like you? And I understand that Jesus Christ said that "I have to say many thing, but I did not say..." like that.
Ramesvara: He said, "I have more to tell that ye cannot bear."
Prabhupada: You cannot?
Ramesvara: Bear.
Prabhupada: Means "you cannot understand."
Ramesvara: Yes. He also said...
Jagadisa: Or "you cannot accept. You cannot bear."
Ramesvara: He also said, "Do not cast your pearls before swine." I think he was talking about them also.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You are swine; so therefore he did not say." You quote this: "But you are swine; therefore he did not say."
Ramesvara: New interpretation.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You are swine." Yes, they are swine. Svarka-vaca.(?) In India they say. Tell them like that, "You are swine. You cannot understand things. Therefore he did not say." That's a fact. If you are not swine, then God said, "Thou shall not kill," you killed him, so what you'll understand about God? You did not allow him to live. You are such a great swine. And his disciple...
Jagadisa: Judas
Prabhupada: Huh? Cheated him. He was such swine. He was such big swine.
Ramesvara: And right after he was killed, anyone who followed him, they made the lions eat them. It's common knowledge that the early Christians were dragged into a big arena, and the lions were let out of their cages and devoured them. And the people were cheering. The public was invited to the event, and they were cheering.
Prabhupada: That Rome.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Your civilization is such.
Hari-sauri: Mr. Gupta just sent a big basketfull of oranges from Nagpur.
Jagadisa: This is a tarshi? Are they named tarshi?
Hari-sauri: I'm not sure.
Prabhupada: Hm. [break] Therefore it is mentioned.
Ramesvara: Now, one of their arguments is... Their main thing is to try to pretend that it is not a question of religion.
Prabhupada: So, one thing is that if you have proved a swine, what is the value of your arguments? You have proved that you are a swine. So better stop arguing. What I say, you accept. That is good for you. Because you are descendants of swine, and actually you are doing that.
Ramesvara: Actually, on one television show they directly accused Your Divine Grace. They said that you have got us going out every day collecting money, and we have to send all this money to India, to Mayapura, to build one temple so that you will become famous. And ultimately we will worship you as God.
Prabhupada: Well, already famous. What is that famous?
Ramesvara: That was their argument.
Prabhupada: That's all right. A famous man must be famous. He cannot be famous, famous. What you have done that you'll be famous? You are swine. You cannot be famous.
Ramesvara: They are subscribing to our newsletter. They somehow or other get our newsletter, and they read about our Mayapura city costing so many lakhs and crores. So they became envious. That's all.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right. We are selling books. That is my book. I can spend in such a way.
Ramesvara: It was just envy.
Prabhupada: Envy is envy. But it is my book. I am selling. So I can take the price anywhere. That is my right. You have nothing to say. You stop your men to purchase, that's all. Otherwise I'll sell anywhere and I shall spend anywhere. I have got the right.
Ramesvara: Normally they do not attack you.
Jagadisa: We are voluntarily doing all this.
Ramesvara: We're voluntarily. But one of their main arguments is that before someone joins the Hare Krsna movement he has great affection for his father, his mother, his brothers, his relatives. And after he joins the Hare Krsna movement he has nothing to do with them anymore, and sometimes he even calls them demon.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the fact.
Ramesvara: So they say this is the proof that we have brainwashed them. Because it is natural to have affection for your family.
Prabhupada: Before that, he was accepting a false father. And now they understood that "He is not my father. He's my enemy." Therefore he's going... According to Bhagavata it is said, "One should not become father if he cannot save his son from the imminent danger of birth, death, old age and disease." So the so-called father, they are not father. So after enter into Hare Krsna movement, one understands that "He's my false father." So if he gives up the relationship, that means he's successful.
Ramesvara: So, then they will say, "We do not want this movement in our country because it is breaking up the families."
Prabhupada: You do not want? Who cares for you? We shall go on with our movement. Who cares for you?
Ramesvara: "You are ruining family life."
Prabhupada: What is that?
Ramesvara: We are simply ruining our families.
Prabhupada: That's all right. We are ruining the dog's family, cat's family. That's all right. We are entering into Krsna's family. That is our improvement. What is the use of keeping with the dog's family, cat's family? The dog has also family. So to remain in the dog's family, it is very prestigious position? We have now constructed our own family, Krsna family. We are entering there. What is the use of remaining in the dog's family, cat's family?
Hari-sauri: "But if you're actually followers of God, then why are you breaking up the families? Shouldn't you have love for everyone?"
Ramesvara: Because they say that the Ten Commandments says... One of the Ten Commandments, the fourth one, says "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father."
Prabhupada: Yes, we honor.
Ramesvara: But that means by birth, the mother and father also. That's what it refers to.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So they say, "By your teaching they are spitting on their mothers and fathers."
Prabhupada: No, not spitting. Who is spitting? Everyone... Just like you have got a father and mother. You are not spitting. Whenever father, mother, comes, he honors. That is your version, but his version is different. He loves his father and mother. He teaches him Krsna consciousness.
Hari-sauri: My mother testified to that, that when I was at home I was impossible to live with, and when they saw me afterwards, I was very nice.
Prabhupada: Many. The Hayagriva's father, mother.
Ramesvara: My parents think like that too.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: I could have no relation with them before, but now that I am a devotee, I actually want to help them, so the relationship...
Prabhupada: And there are so many fathers, mothers; they very much appreciate. And the... Our... None of our disciple is disrespectful to father and mother. Why? I never said that "You become disrespectful to your father and mother."
Hari-sauri: The only time there's any argument is if...
Prabhupada: But if the father is demon...
Ramesvara: The devotees sometimes are disrespectful out of immaturity.
Prabhupada: That is a individual fact. But...
Ramesvara: But they cannot condemn the movement because of that.
Prabhupada: We never said that "You be..." I never said. And when Brahmananda was initiated, his mother was standing. I asked Brahmananda, "Take the dust of your mother's feet first. Then you offer me obeisances." Ask Brahmananda. So he first of all offered his obeisances to his mother. I told him like that, "You have got good mother." I told him like that, "Otherwise how she has got a son like you?" I always say like that. I never said, "Disrespect." But in particular case, if the father and mother is demon, he must give up their... It is not our business to...
Ramesvara: The whole controversy centers around this point of breaking up the family.
Prabhupada: We never said. Breaking up the family... So many ways they are breaking up, the hippies are also breaking.
Jagadisa: The fathers and mothers are also breaking. Divorce.
Prabhupada: Father and mother, yes. Why they divorce?
Hari-sauri: Seven out of ten marriages.
Prabhupada: Within two weeks, three divorce.
Ramesvara: That's a very good point.
Hari-sauri: They have no family unit to speak of, anyway.
Prabhupada: It is surprising. If one gentleman lives for life as husband and wife, it is a very surprising thing in your country that they have lived so long as husband and wife.
Hari-sauri: Yes, they become very glorified.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jagadisa: They put them in the paper.
Prabhupada: And so credible. So this is your nation, that if one gentleman and lady remain as husband-wife for long time, it is a wonderful thing. So first of all decide what do you mean by religion; what is the definition of religion. Our definition of religion is this, that the law given by God is religion. Now you refute it. That is everywhere. Just like any state, you... The law given by government is law. That is universal truth. You cannot manufacture law at your home. What is given by your state, that is law. Similarly, religion means what is given by God, that is religion.
Ramesvara: So they say we are making up our own religion because...
Prabhupada: You cannot make own religion. Then it is not religion.
Ramesvara: That is what they accuse us of. They say that we teach our devotees that you can lie for Krsna, you can steal for Krsna, you can even kill for Krsna. So this is immoral.
Prabhupada: But do you say like that?
Ramesvara: No, they are distorting. But that is their ar... And just like they use your Back to Godhead article about Arjuna on the battlefield, that sometimes we may even have to kill our relatives for Krsna.
Prabhupada: So, suppose if God said that "You kill," what you will do?
Ramesvara: Our argument is just that, that in the Bible, God told Abraham, "You must kill your son Isaac." This is a famous story in the Bible. So Abraham took his son and was ready to chop off his head. And God felt sorry and He stopped him. But that story is there in the Bible, that God told Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was ready to do it. It does not mean that the Jewish religion is based on killing your son.
Jagadisa: It was a test of his faith.
Ramesvara: It was a test of his faith. The same story of Arjuna, he had to kill for Krsna. It's actually a good argument when they say that.
Prabhupada: You have got sugar candy?
Hari-sauri: I don't think she packed any. Oh, sugar? She must have packed it. I'll have to find Palika, 'cause she has everything.
Ramesvara: They think that if our devotees are willing to do whatever you say, it must mean that they are brainwashed. They have given up their independence, so therefore they are brainwashed. If they are willing to follow anyone blindly, like a slave...
Prabhupada: That is your instruction also. Jehovah says that you shall not worship any other God. So, Jesus Christ says also that you shall not worship. So that is the way of preaching. That is required.
Jagadisa: That is also required in the military.
Prabhupada: Yes. That also has been described by Professor Stillson? "Charismastic"? What is...?
Jagadisa: Charismatic.
Prabhupada: Charismatic spiritual master.
Hari-sauri: I think whatever was there was either packed in the basket or the cooker, and there was no sugar. So, I'll have to... If you want, I can have one of these men go and find some.
Prabhupada: Sugar? Where you'll find?
Ramesvara: But the... Pradyumna has some sweet mango.
Prabhupada: No.
Ramesvara: What is that?
Jagadisa: Mango candy.
Prabhupada: Mango candy? (Hari-sauri opens door and asks in another compartment)
Hari-sauri: Pradyumna, have you got some mango candy?
Jagadisa: There are grapes also.
Prabhupada: Grape candy?
Jagadisa: No. Fruit.
Ramesvara: So, actually, their arguments are not very... So therefore it is simply a plan of Krsna to help give us some prominence, make us more well known.
Jagadisa: Give us a chance to preach.
Ramesvara: Because their arguments have no substance.
Prabhupada: Defeat them. "God cannot came as fish." "Why? What kind of God He is? He likes, He can do. That is God."
Jagadisa: When I heard the tape of this priest, this minister, and he was trying to cut down our religion, our movement, he was saying that "You believe that God came as a fish, as a tortoise, as a half lion, half man," it reminded me that whenever in the scriptures demons try to blaspheme-like Hiranyaksa-tries to blaspheme against Lord Visnu, Visvanatha Cakravarti turns it around and makes it seem as if he's actually glorifying Him. You can't blaspheme Krsna because whatever you say about Him is simply another glorification. They try to criticize, "Your God had sixteen thousand wives." Actually that's something wonderful. They just take it in the wrong way.
Hari-sauri: (in background) Is Palika in there? Listen, Prabhupada wants some... Have you got any of that mango candy? Can you cut some fruit for Prabhupada?
Jagadisa: They're helping us to spread Krsna's glories.
Ramesvara: Now, they say... Just like in Los Angeles we have sued the family for two million dollars, two and a half million dollars, because they kidnapped their girl. So they say that the girl, she would not have done this, but because we told her to do it, therefore she did it. Therefore there is control. We are controlling her.
Prabhupada: We must because you checked her freedom.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Why did you kidnap? Therefore we must teach him some lesson.
Jagadisa: Everyone acts in such a way to please his friends, anyway.
Ramesvara: Their argument is that this girl who was kidnapped, she still likes her family, but now we have told her, "You must sue them." So therefore she is doing it. So therefore she is not free. She is... We are controlling her.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now you want to control her. We are controlling, but you want to control her. So if you can control, why shall I not control? Why you are poking your nose? We shall cut your nose. (laughter)
Jagadisa: That's what we're going to do too. (Hari-sauri returns with candy)
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Ramesvara: I think we've used up all their arguments. They say...
Prabhupada: First of all, our challenge is "What is your definition of God?"
Ramesvara: They will answer, "Let us first discuss the definition of brainwashing. Do not talk of God. We are not trying to talk of God. We want to talk about brainwashing."
Prabhupada: So first of all you define.
Ramesvara: Brainwashing?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: They say that brainwashing means that when you deprive a person of sleep, of food, you isolate him from the rest of the world, you have him chant something over and over again many times, in this way you can get control of his mind, and then whatever you want, he will do, just like a robot.
Prabhupada: You first of all said that we are depriving with food. Where is this?
Ramesvara: This is their argument...
Prabhupada: This is their argument...
Ramesvara: ...that we only let them eat twice a day, and even then, not only is there no meat, but there is very little protein.
Prabhupada: That depends on him. If he likes to eat that kind of food, you have no right to enforce upon him. Then you are going to enforce upon him. There are different persons; they like different types of food. And food must be according to his own taste. Aguru ohikhanna.(?)
Ramesvara: Only twice a day.
Prabhupada: But if he likes twice a day, why you give thrice? That is his choice.
Ramesvara: And sleeping only four, five hours.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Very little.
Prabhupada: Because it is waste of time.
Ramesvara: This makes his mind very weak.
Prabhupada: You rascal, you have nothing to do. You sleep. Napoleon used to sleep for one hour, two hour. He was such a busy man. So they are so busy in Krsna consciousness, they have no time to sleep. Every great man does not sleep very much. The lazy men... (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi) Accha. Sleeping is simply waste of time. So this is... If he does not sleep more, it is a sign of greatness.
Ramesvara: But they have got these crazy fools in the name of psychologists. And these psychologists...
Prabhupada: We have got our psychologists.
Ramesvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food, torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force.
Prabhupada: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. (laughter) We have made the ground.
Ramesvara: That's what they want! They want us...
Prabhupada: Then why do you kidnap? You say.
Ramesvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him.
Jagadisa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep.
Prabhupada: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief?
Ramesvara: For his own good.
Prabhupada: Then you are thief. Then thief can also say like that, "For my good I can steal."
Ramesvara: "It is the lesser of evils."
Prabhupada: That's all right. But God does not allow.
Hari-sauri: When a person first comes to us he's coming voluntarily and he's not... At that stage he's not deprived of sleep, he's not deprived of eating. But still, he's coming, voluntarily. But when they take him away they have to take him by force.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: To change him.
Ramesvara: They say to break him of the spell. We have got a spell on him.
Prabhupada: But why he again comes back? You could not break.
Ramesvara: Sometimes they cannot break, because we have planted our...
Prabhupada: In most cases they come back.
Ramesvara: Yes. I would say four out of five come back.
Jagadisa: We have given him knowledge.
Prabhupada: It is not a prison house.
Ramesvara: They say, "You cannot deprogram a Christian because Christianity is real. Therefore this is the proof that Hare Krsna is false."
Prabhupada: What is that?
Ramesvara: That there is no record of any Christian...
Hari-sauri: We were all Christians, and we changed.
Jagadisa: There's a record of a Christian deprogrammed, Peter himself. Christ prophesied that "Before the cock crows you'll deny me three times," and he did. He was deprogrammed just by his association.
Ramesvara: That was Peter?
Jagadisa: Yes. (train going again)
Hari-sauri: His own... One of his twelve apostles put him on the cross, Judas Iscariat. He was one of the original twelve. He betrayed Jesus for some money and put him on the cross, killed him. He killed him.
Prabhupada: That's right. This is the history of your religion. You kill Jesus Christ; you deprive him.
Hari-sauri: There's still that point that when a person comes, he's coming voluntarily. We have no chance to deprive him of sleep or food, because he's living outside. He's not living inside.
Ramesvara: They say that when a man comes to join us, immediately we take away all his money and all his possessions, so in this way we are depriving him of his property.
Prabhupada: That is individual surrender. We have not rendered that way. He surrendered individually.
Hari-sauri: When Christ preached, he told them to "Give up your work; give up your family; give up everything. Don't try to earn a livelihood. Don't worry about where your food will come from. Don't worry where your cloth will come from." He said that in his instructions to his disciples. I think it's in the Acts according to St. Matthew.
Jagadisa: His disciples simply...
Hari-sauri: He gave the example that "The birds, they do not try to make a living, but God is feeding them. So do you not think God will help feed if you go out and do His work?" That is what he said to them. (indistinct) And they say they are Christians, but actually the real Christianity is what we are practicing.
Ramesvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God."
Prabhupada: Where is that?
Ramesvara: That's right in the Bible.
Prabhupada: [break] Because there are many fanatics. Hm?
Hari-sauri: Through America it's full of persecutors.(?) These people are very, very hateful towards our men. Europe is all right. Europe...
Prabhupada: Europe? Germany...
Hari-sauri: Germany is bad.(?)
Jagadisa: North America would be... South America?
Ramesvara: Prabhupada, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer, very peaceful.
Hari-sauri: New Vrindaban you could go when the palace is done.
(long conversation at end of tape about deprogramming and psychology—Ramesvara talks most of the time—can be transcribed if the tape is slowed down and the train noise is reduced.) (end)

Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/jan/conversation_on_train_to_allahabad/india/january/11/1977

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