January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
Prthu-putra: ...to show me. They were telling me that "You are going to see the representative of God." And when I came to that vision, I saw the person. At that time I didn't know who (it) was. But I had some doubts in my mind, and I was thinking, "Oh, that's probably another kind of propaganda." This was all in the dream. But when I came to that person sitting on the elevated seat in that forest, surrounded by many, many devotees, that person looked at me and proved to me that he was the representative of God. But after, I forgot. Maybe one year or something like this. One or two years after...
Prabhupada: So there is no doubt about it that I am the representative of God.
Prabhupada: Either you dream or not dream, I claim.
Prthu-putra: Yes. But this thing was just confirming. When I saw you the first time in Amsterdam, you were the same person that I saw in my dream one or two years previously.
Prabhupada: That... You have read Caitanya-caritamrta? Guru-tattva. Guru-tattva. So there it is clearly said that guru is the manifestation of God. So it is confirmed in the sastra. And all the acaryas accept it. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **.
Satsvarupa: But is it possible to also learn spiritual truths from this..., from representatives on the subtle plane?
Prabhupada: There is no question of subtle plane. You are on the gross plane. You first of all study gross things, and subtle, we shall see later on.
Prthu-putra: Of course, that was never a doubt. That's just the way I came to Krsna consciousness. And when I saw you...
Prabhupada: So the guru is the representative of God. That's all right. Then what is your misunderstanding?
Prthu-putra: So then after I had some other things. For example, when I went to Egypt, in these pyramids one day I had some kind of contact on the subtle plane with persons who were supposed to live inside of the pyramids, and they gave me some kind of instructions.
Prabhupada: Inside of the pyramid?
Prabhupada: These are just like we know gold and we know mountain...
Prabhupada: ...and sometimes we mix together and we see golden mountain. So in dream we see like that. We have got hundreds and thousands of experiences in our this life and past life. They are all stocked there, and they can sometimes get like a bubbles. You have seen the bubbles come out? It is like that. We should not give much importance to these things. But it is a fact that bona fide spiritual master is bona fide representative of Krsna. That's a fact. So there is no question of subtle or gross. It is a fact. That's all right.
Satsvarupa: But we've been discussing, and Prthu-putra Maharaja is saying that some devotees are very sensitive about thinking that they're having these experiences. And if we tell them, "Ignore this. It's not important," that will not be good for them, because they are definitely feeling visits from persons from another plane, and if you simply tell them, "No..."
Prabhupada: No, that's all right. You say that "You are fortunate that you're having, but do your business." That's all.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Sometimes it may be fact. There is no wonder. But we have to proceed with the figure. If I dream that I am getting one lakh of rupees, so it is better if I get five rupees in figure. Is that all right?
Prabhupada: Simply dreaming I am getting one lakh of rupees, that is good, or actually, if you get five rupees, that is good? Which is good?
Prabhupada: So don't depend on the subtle thing. See practically what you are getting.
Satsvarupa: What I thought was most dangerous is...
Prabhupada: Most dangerous... Those who are neophyte, they will be always in danger.
Satsvarupa: Sometimes these...
Prabhupada: Always in danger because they are neophytes, just like a child is always in danger. So how you can save them? He's always in danger. So as far as possible, let us try. He's going to the fire. He's going to the water. He's going to the animal. He's eating some poison. So always in danger. That childish age is dangerous. Therefore mother takes care. Danger is already there because he's neophyte, kanistha-adhikari. Therefore we have to abide by the injunction of the sastra and guided by guru. That's all. That is our secure position. And otherwise danger always.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, this is the position. Those who are neophyte, they are always in danger. Therefore their duty is to be guided by sadhu-sastra-guru. That's all. That is our... Now, I'll say from my practical life... It is not pride. Actually everyone knows that my Guru Maharaja had thousands of disciples. So out of thousands of disciples, practically I am little successful. That everyone knows. Why? Because I firmly believed in the words of my guru. That's all. This is the... There may be many other Godbrother, maybe very learned and very advanced, whatever it may be, favored, and... Everyone claims that "I am the most favorite." And practical point of view... So I think sometimes that "Why this wonderful thing has happened to me?" So I search out. I search out only that I cent percent believe in the words of my spiritual... That's all, nothing else. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa **. Don't think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success. You are daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vakya **. You know the meaning?
Prabhupada: This is the instruction. And the child decides it that "Whatever my parent says, that's all I shall do. I shall do nothing," then he's safe.
Satsvarupa: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth."
Prabhupada: Then he's safe. And as soon as he manufactures—finished. So don't do this. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau, tasyaite kathita... [SU 6.23]. This is the secret of spiritual success. Vrndavana, there are so many dangerous. All these babajis, they are... "Oh, I am not going out of Vrndavana." But he has got connection with so many women. So what is the use? Have you experience of this? He's attached to women and doing all sinful activities in Vrndavana, and he's a devotee. "He cannot go out of Vrndavana." This is going on, manufacturing bidi, smoking bidi, in the dress of Rupa Gosvami, loincloth, big tilaka, kanthi, and what he's doing? Bidi-making. Have you seen?
Prabhupada: Not all of them. But they are also claiming they're on the stage of Rupa Gosvami. We are preaching—we are lower stage. That is their opinion. We are preaching all over the world; we are in the lower stage. And because he has imitated the dress of Rupa Gosvami, mala, tilaka, and he's manufacturing bidi-he's higher. This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura has condemned these rascals—that kali-cela—"the disciple of Kali." Ei ota eka kali-cela.(?) Here is a disciple of Kali. Who? Nake tilaka galai mala. And sahajiya bhajana kache mamu, sange lana pare bala.(?) He has tilaka and mala, and sahajiya, with other girls he's making parakiya-rasa-bhajana. Kali-cela. Ei ota eka kali-cela. So we have to guided by our predecessor acaryas. Then we shall be saved. Otherwise we are condemned.
Prabhupada: What difficulty? What is the difficulty?
Prabhupada: We have got everything clearly stated, that we observe these regulative principle, chant, minimum sixteen rounds, and act as far as possible for the service of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?
Prabhupada: What is that realization? This is the prescribed duty. So there is no question of realization. You must do it.
Prabhupada: Then where is the doubt? Let me go on with my duty. That's all. Why I shall be disturbed by so many things? Let me see whether I am discharging my duties properly. That's all.
Prabhupada: Yes. He may be very fortunate that he's dreaming. "All right, keep aside. Do your duty. You are very fortunate, but don't bother now. First of all be strong and follow." Otherwise ei chure paka. Ei chure paka. Ei chure (?) you know? Stunted jackfruit. Jackfruit becomes so big, but one fruit, it is so small and... Taya eka channi sa. (?) And it has become ripened. So it has no taste, neither it can be used for cooking-useless. Ei chure paka. A small fruit ripen, it is useless either for this person or for that. So they are called in Bengali, ei chure paka. Do your duty. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya..., ara na koriho **. That is bhajana. And as soon as he deviates-yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. He is finished. That has happened to Nitai. Ei chure paka. So what these people will do? It is the effect of bad association. That's all.
Prabhupada: Also Caitanya Mahaprabhu has decide..., that decidedly given His version, asat-sanga-tyaga ei vaisnava-acara: [Cc. Madhya 22.87] "A Vaisnava, his first business is to give up the company of undesirable elements, asat." So who is undesirable element? Now, asat eka stri-sangi, who is attached with woman, and krsna-abhakta. So as soon as you mix with these so-called babajis, bhajana, bhajananandis and mixes with three dozen women, you are fallen. Immediately. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's order. Asat eka stri-sangi. And regularly they are parakiya-rasa. Their theory is that you have to select one woman who is not your bona fide wife, parakiya. She must be other's wife or outsider. And with her you may do... You become Krsna, and she becomes Radharani. Then you become happy. This is going on. Do you know that? These rascals are guiding. And Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, asat-sanga-tyaga ei vaisnava. "First of all you have to give up the undesirable company of these rascals." They will show like that in a very advanced and vairagya and taking three times bath and everything, but they have got connection with at least three, four woman. This is their bhajana. Regularly they will lie down with woman. That's a daily program. I know all these things. That is their bhajana. So be careful of these rascals.
Prabhupada: No, this Nitai and others, they have...
Prthu-putra: Oh, no. That was long time ago. Anyway, I was just staying in one place and didn't listen to anyone.
Prabhupada: That Krsnadasa Babaji, he's of the same type. Not only he, mostly. Because their theory is this, to pick up some woman who is not your wife, she must be parakiya, other's wife. And making Radharani, and you become Krsna, and this is parakiya... And pointed out by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, he's a kali-cela. Ei ota eka kali-cela, nake tilaka galai mala, and sahajiya bhajana kache mamur sange lana pare bala.(?) This is... It's not new thing. It is coming since a long time. Otherwise how Bhaktivinoda Thakura... He's our like grandfather.
Satsvarupa: This discussion with Prthu-putra Maharaja and the devotees in Europe doesn't so much concern those babajis as this business of the, when something is visited, when you have a visitation from the subtle plane, whether to take it as important or not. But you've already explained the position, to go on with your duty and not consider the message very important. Sometimes they speak of...
Prabhupada: No, suppose you have seen that a gold mountain has come in your possession. Will you be satisfied with that?
Prabhupada: So this is like that. This is like that.
Satsvarupa: But this was... They feel this was more factual. An actual person came... A person...
Prabhupada: How it is factual? Where is their golden mountain?
Prthu-putra: It's... You have seen gold, and you have seen mountain, and then the association means golden mountain in a dream...
Prabhupada: It is like that.
Prabhupada: It is like that.
Prabhupada: The same, same thing. Where is that actual person?
Prabhupada: Ordinar... He came eye to eye? Or dream?
Satsvarupa: No. They're saying it's not a dream state but actual manifestation. Just like a demigod comes, they are being visited by...
Prabhupada: But he only visited? Nobody else?
Prthu-putra: No, many devotees could see that person coming to the temple, but she spoke to only one, to Adhikarana.
Prabhupada: That's all right, very good. But do your duty. If you get some such person, devata, "Welcome, but I must do my own duty."
Prthu-putra: But they gave similar message, so that means that message was... They were informing that some big disturbances will come in this world and...
Prabhupada: Let them come. What is there? Narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. If you are actually devotee...
Prabhupada: So why you are discussing them? Let whatever calamity may come, let come.
Satsvarupa: In other words, they are taking information from these persons aside from your books.
Satsvarupa: But everything... We should be satisfied.
Prabhupada: That means he is trying to deviate from the path chalked out by their spiritual master.
Prthu-putra: No. On the opposite way, they try to learn more about the books because they feel they have to be spiritual teacher of the future. That is the opposite way.
Prabhupada: That's all right...
Prthu-putra: They don't go away from Srila Prabhupada's teaching. On the opposite, we try to learn more and to be more qualified in order to teach spiritually on the case...
Prabhupada: But no, no..., that, that... They're overintelligent. Just like Nitai has become overintelligent. "Please bless me I may find out a bona fide guru." He has written me.
Prabhupada: He has written me that. He is asking my blessing to find out another bona fide guru. Such a rascal he is. If his present guru is not bona fide, why he's asking blessing from him? Such a rascal. He has written me.
Prabhupada: No, you say, but he is such a learned, overlearned, he's asking somebody blessing who is not bona fide to find out bona fide. Just see his position. If you are seeking a bona fide spiritual master, why you asking the blessing of non-bona fide? (laughs) I could simply laugh, that's all, that such a rascal... He was doing some tangible service, editing work. He left everything. Now he's going to find out bona fide spiritual..., for bhajanananda. Therefore, asat-sanga-tyagi ei vaisnava. The first thing is... It is enunciated by... Whether this man is attached to woman? Then finish, all bona fide finish. As soon as one is attached to woman, either legal or illegal, his all qualification finished. Asat eka stri-sangi. And these rascals have derived meaning that "One who has one stri only, he's asat. One who has more than one stri, he's sat." They have interpreted like that. Asat eka stri-sangi. Krsna mean... Number one asat is stri-sangi, and number two asat is who is not devotee of Krsna. That is the meaning. But they have taken, eka stri-sangi: "One who keeps only one woman, he's asat. One who keeps more than one woman, he is sat. So we are keeping more than one woman." This is going on. [break] Nobody has seen. Somebody came. He... They only saw. And there are other devotees; they could not see. He's so advanced, only he is, he could see. This is bogus.
Prabhupada: They came. Nobody could see. Only he could see. This is bogus. You should never encourage that. This is bogus! That's all. If somebody comes, everyone will see. And "If I see only; nobody can see," this is bogus. Don't encourage these bogus things.
Prabhupada: "Only he could see." He's so advanced, his eyes are only fit to see that and nobody, others. That is bogus. Others have also eyes. But oh, he has got transcendental eyes.
Prabhupada: Why you become authority of understand? That is not good.
Prabhupada: That is not experience. That is only dream. That is not experience. Nobody has seen. Somebody came, (indistinct) only saw. And there are other devotees, he is so advanced, only he could see. This is bogus. This is bogus. They came. Nobody could see, only he could see. This is bogus. You should never encourage it. This is bogus, that's all. If somebody comes, everyone will see. If I see only, everyone... This is bogus. Don't encourage it, bogus.
Prabhupada: Only he could see, he's so advanced, for his eyes only. He could see, and nobody else. That is bogus. Others have also eyes. But he has got transcendental eyes.
Prabhupada: That is bogus. Not only he, there are many. They'll simply repeat that. There are many. They come... Many devotees, our life members, big, big men, they come: "Swamiji, I experienced like this. Some man came. Some boy came." Means real purpose is that he wants to prove that he is already connected with higher planetary system. I have got many experiences. They say like that.
Prabhupada: So simply hear them. That's all. One big barrister, he was my friend. He is dead, M. C. Chatterji. He's a very big barrister. He used to charge sixteen thousand rupees for one appearance. So he was stating about when..., that he came to Vrndavana, and he met one boy, and "He asked me some sweets, I gave him sweet. Later on, when I was coming back to Delhi, I saw that boy was running on the train." He said. Such a big barrister, he said like that. "Oh, he was so..." Posturing like this. What can I say? "Krsna as cowherd boy was running after you in the train?" This is going on. Another friend's wife, she came to Jagannatha Puri. So Jagannatha Puri, those who are rich men, they are allowed to go near the Jagannatha. So that lady said that "While I was circumambulating, Jagannatha was snatching my cloth." Jagannatha became so much attached with that blackish woman that He began to snatch his (her) cloth. So many stories I know. So what can be said? "Why did you not remain with Jagannatha? Why you came back?" This is going on. So I have got experience of many such stories. Krsna as cowherd boy was running with his train. I have to take. And Jagannatha was snatching her cloth. They are very poisonous things. I was never fortunate with such incidences. I am simply trying to carry out the order of my Guru Maharaja. That's all.
Prthu-putra: It was never such story as people having contact with Krsna, anything like this. That never went on. That was never going on.
Satsvarupa: I asked why these visitations are not mentioned in your books, people from the subtle plane. And one answer I was given is that if you wrote this in your books, then too many devotees would try to contact these persons, but that you do approve of it, but you don't want to put it in your books. But I thought, no, you put everything in your books.
Satsvarupa: These are the things I heard.
Prabhupada: Tell them this, that "Whatever it may be, you do your duty. That's all."
Prabhupada: These sahajiyas will come out of so many devotees. What can be done? From my Guru Maharaja's disciples, so many sahajiyas came. These are called sahajiyas. Very easily they capture thing. So my Guru Maharaja used to say, "When my disciples will be sahajiya, it will be more dangerous." He used to say like that. Take things very easily. You know that Purusottama, supposed to be my Godbrother?
Prabhupada: You don't know?
Prabhupada: In Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: He has poisoned this Nitai.
Prthu-putra: Oh. Is it because we have the desire to come in contact with such persons that we contact them, like Nitai contacting that Purusottama?
Prabhupada: You may not desire, but if you are not strong, you'll be misled by these rascals. But if we follow this instruction, Narottama dasa Thakura, ara na koriho mane asa, oh, then you become strong. Then you remain strong. Our bhakti line is anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. We should be completely zero of our material desires. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Sunyam means zero. So our classes are not held here?
Satsvarupa: Bhagavatam class in the morning? No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then? This is not good, so many devotees and there is no class. Where they have gone now?
Satsvarupa: Gargamuni and Gurukrpa Maharaja have gone to a place to look for some land for a possible temple. I'm trying to remember the place. They say it's the place where Lord Caitanya was caught in the net by the fisherman. It is between...
Satsvarupa: Between here and Puri. He said maybe there is some likely sights there, and they went to look.
Prabhupada: Karanak is near Puri?
Satsvarupa: It's near here.
Prabhupada: But He was caught in the net in Puri, not...
Prthu-putra: Karanak is not so near Puri because Bhuvanesvara is like this, Puri is like this, and Karanak is situated like this.
Satsvarupa: That's where they're going, Karanak. It somehow is a holy place.
Prabhupada: Karanak is a holy place. That I know.
Satsvarupa: But I will arrange with Gaura-Govinda Maharaja that we should have classes every morning.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, idle brain, devil's workshop. You should not remain idle. Either chant Hare Krsna or read books. Have class. This is not good.
Prabhupada: Which man?
Satsvarupa: That man who was here last night. He's invited the devotees there at one o'clock.
Prabhupada: Village means here.
Prabhupada: How many men?
Prabhupada: That's all right. He has agreed to...?
Prabhupada: Ask him to have tilaka always.
Prabhupada: No, that man who came. Ask that...
Prabhupada: No tilaka.
Satsvarupa: He does not wear tilaka.
Prabhupada: So he must have tilaka. You ask him, "First of all have tilaka." You see. Otherwise we'll not take.
Satsvarupa: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Jaya. (end)
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