Evening Darsana

September 1, 1976, Delhi
Prabhupada: ...required to kill somebody, he'll do that. If it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means papa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world is (indistinct) is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. "Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification." Bhagavan (indistinct). Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavan, now he wants to become Bhagavan. Yogi, that is also another sense gratification. That if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live, very nicely. Gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motor car. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motor car? This is going on. (Hindi)
Guest: Apnara prasna hai? (Hindi conversation continues for some time)
Prabhupada: But so far you must fix up, what you want.
Guest: What is realization?
Prabhupada: Realization, everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.
Guest: Realization of God.
Prabhupada: Then you, if you want...
Guest: Realization of God.
Prabhupada: Realization of God, (Hindi), bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. So if you want to know me, then bhaktya, bhakti. (Hindi) Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.
(Hindi conversation for some time)
Prabhupada: Find out this verse. (Hindi) Somebody, you can read? (rings bell) (more Hindi) Somebody... Why don't you send? What they are doing? All these rascals, that they cannot read.
Devotee: Someone should come in?
Prabhupada: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain here. Why are there? What they are doing there?
Hari-sauri: Harikesa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.
Prabhupada: Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleso 'dhikarataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam. Klesa. Beginning with klesa. You could not? Klesa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here.
Devotee: Kleso 'dhikarataras tesam?
Prabhupada: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleso'dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam [Bg. 12.5]. (Hindi) Read it.
kleso 'dhikataras tesam
avyakta hi gatir duhkham
dehavadbhir avapyate
[Bg. 12.5]
Prabhupada: Ah. Avyakta hi gatir duhkham. (Hindi) Read it.
Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."
Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jnana-yogis, and persons who are in full Krsna consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jnana-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."
Prabhupada: Krsna personally says bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. (Hindi) If you like to tolerate adi-klesa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavan, sac-cid-ananda...
sri vigraharadhana-nitya-nana-
yuktasya bhaktams ca niyunjato 'pi
vande guroh sri-caranaravindam **
(Hindi) You can accept any way. That is your choice.
tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih
goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.37]
Ananda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ananda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. (Hindi conversation for some time)
Indian man (1): Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying in Vrndavana?
Prabhupada: I'm going to... Oh, Vrndavana, three weeks.
Indian man (1): Where are you spending your...
Prabhupada: Any time in your home.
Indian man (1): Any time (indistinct) which is convenient to Your Grace. I'll come over to Vrndavana on the 15th evening. 15th evening, I'll come over to Vrndavana?
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Indian man (1): And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi? From Vrndavana after three weeks?
Prabhupada: They have made program to go to Chandigarh.
Indian man (1): Chandigarh. (indistinct) The route is almost the same distance from here to Vrndavana. 5 miles, 8 miles difference. Not much difference mileage-wise.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Gopala Krsna: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vrndavana via Aligarh?
Indian man (2): In my opinion you should. That road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six or seven feet and all this is all mud and muck and the car skids. In my opinion you go via Aligarh.
Gopala Krsna: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vrndavana.
Indian man (2): Suggest to go back to Vrndavana and then come. (Hindi) (Gopala Krsna converses with Indians about which road to take)
Pradyumna: Purport: Samadhi means "fixed mind." The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag adhiyate 'sminn atmatattva-yathatmyam: "When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samadhi. "Samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy.
(More Hindi)
Prabhupada: He, her son he is the father and mother, he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband wife, child we have. Baca, ek baca? He's getting very happy, very nice boy. (Hindi) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining, from foreign countries and not from here. (Hindi) Here is Gopala Krsna, he was sales manager in Coca-cola. (Hindi) ...dollar, he has given. (Hindi for some time) You have bought that book? Ah. Stillson Judah's?
Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vrndavana also.
Prabhupada: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one, "Hare Krsna and Counter-culture." "Hare Krsna and Counter-culture." (Hindi)
Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion... In their set of volumes on different religions.
Indian woman: Prasada (Hindi)
Prabhupada: I am going to Vrndavana tomorrow. (Hindi) I'll be three weeks there. (hindi) Still, it is Vrndavana. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam. (Hindi) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vrndavana dhama is also worshipable. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena va kalpita. Upasana vraja-vadhu, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhumi, the gopis, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhu-vargena. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavana.
Indian man (3): ...we are going there after Parliament session tomorrow. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: They spend so much money for the roadways, still it is not good.
Indian man (3): Draining is different levels arising water (indistinct) in excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. I was told that...
Prabhupada: There is no sufficient outlet.
Indian man (3): Yes. But some of those asrama, Mathura, it's very deep, that four feet water in the asramas. Three-four feet water.
Prabhupada: Within the asramas?
Indian man (3): And temple.
Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamuna, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.
Indian man (3): And now you will remain here in India for some time?
Prabhupada: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.
Indian man (3): You are just gone from (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.
Indian man (3): Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kuruksetra and etc. and the...
Prabhupada: Program was that they promised to give me land.
Indian man (3): Who?
Prabhupada: That chief minister.
Indian man (3): Have they done so?
Prabhupada: Not yet.
Indian man (3): I had about 2 acres was available, except that. (talks about land he owns-indistinct)
Prabhupada: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet. By one million six hundred thousand miles.
Indian man (3): What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.
Prabhupada: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet and they have gone there.
Indian man (3): No, no, have you given up the idea of Kuruksetra?
Prabhupada: No, no, not...
Indian man (3): No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it because so much is to be done, if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. (indistinct) ...and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the (talks about himselfvery low, hard to hear)
Prabhupada: You bring one little plate prasadam from there, from that...
Indian man (3): You will be in Vrndavana for some...
Prabhupada: Three weeks.
Indian man (3): After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (3): Well, this is God's work, Lord Krsna's work. I am trying (indistinct) to cooperate with you because nobody can do.
Prabhupada: No, you have done tremendous work.
Indian man (3): No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem (in the) country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work (indistinct).
Prabhupada: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.
Indian man (3): Yes, they'll branch out and... It's a great service.
Prabhupada: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.
Indian man (3): It is not that difficulties were not there (indistinct). I don't have the support, but I feel (indistinct) find that several places the demand for this for the acceptance of (indistinct) also not in the manner in which I had wanted. (indistinct) ...lakhs of people stand against (indistinct) religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people (goes on giving his own opinions-indistinct) ...I hope you are not coming in your way.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Indian man (3): I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we can do together. Possibly this question, building and all that. (indistinct) It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that there is work to be done at the Kuruksetra.
Prabhupada: My point is that Kuruksetra is the place where Bhagavad-gita was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, then people will be benefitted. But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gita, then moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasah [Bg. 9.12]. That I believe. Find out this verse. Moghasa mogha-karmano.
Indian man (3): That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct...
Prabhupada: No, why not direct?
Indian man (3): Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.
Prabhupada: And why the others will not accept?
Indian man (3): No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gita as a text, but still people may not judge...
Prabhupada: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present Gita as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will...
Indian man (3): No, no.
Prabhupada: No, no I am not speaking to you. Anyone.
Indian man (3): I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.
"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."
Prabhupada: Go on, go on. I have given any purport?
Pradyumna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Krsna consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service-going back to Godheadwill never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. In other words, persons who mock Krsna are to be understood to be demonic or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, such demonic miscreants never surrender to Krsna. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Krsna are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Krsna will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedanta-sutra and the Upanisads, is always baffled.
It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded because they cannot understand the eternal form of Krsna. In the Brhad-vaisnava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Krsna to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the sruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Krsna because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation.
Indian man (3): I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There Krsna Bhagavan had a dialogue with Uddhava.
Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekadasa-skandha of the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Uddhava.
Indian man (3): And there I felt, I thought that whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavan Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, (indistinct). Because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the life members.
Pradyumna: Yes, Bhagavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, padyokta. We're up to that.
Indian man (3): Now, well then if it is, if the member is (indistinct). Now in the Eleventh there is...
Prabhupada: Eleventh Canto, yes. When you will remember the verse?
Indian man (3): No, no, number (indistinct) again and again I had gone to (indistinct) and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this (indistinct) when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Ramanujacarya philosophy which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavan. Just as the human atma has a body, this means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith (indistinct). Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give a guidance...
Prabhupada: As you say that, Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Amsa. So any common man can understand.... (end)

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