Lekhasravanti (Walter Reuther's daughter): This is Jackie Vaughn. He's a member of the House of Representatives of Michigan. He's come to speak to you.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Lekhasravanti: He came also last year. He's very impressed by Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Krsna is black and we worship Him. (laughter) You have seen our Deity? Yes. Krsna is from your community. (Prabhupada laughs) There is no question of black and white. Krsna consciousness is above the skinthe soul which is there. Either he's black or white or yellow, it doesn't matter. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. This is the first education, that do not take the body, but the living force within the body. That is important; we have to understand that. We are talking from that platform. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult, because people are very much absorbed with bodily concept of life. But our philosophy begins from that platform where there is no more bodily concept of life. Therefore it is little difficult. (pause) So any question also?

Srutakirti: You've been reading from Prabhupada's books?

Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I continue to search.

Srutakirti: If you have any questions you can ask him.

Jackie Vaughn: The last time I was here you were kind enough to address to the basic point-we're in the world and yet how can we not be a part of the world.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hari-sauri: He says we're in the world, but how can we be aloof from it? How can we not be a part of it?

Prabhupada: It is knowledge. Just like we are moving with this body, but still we know perfectly well that we are not this body. Just like you may move in your car, but you are perfectly aware that you are not the car. When you drive on your car, do you not know that you are not the car, car is different from you? Huh? Don't you know that? Similarly, by cultivation of knowledge one can remain in the car and still he can know that he is not the car. The example is given, just like coconut. Coconut, within the shell, green shell, there is coconut. And when it is dry, if you move you'll understand that the coconut is now separate-(makes sound:) cut-cut-cut-cutat that time it is taken away for extracting oil. So this is practical. In the beginning, green coconut. And when you can perceive that there is coconut within the shell and it can be separated, but at a time it can be known that the coconut is separated from the shell. And if you move it, it will make-cut-cut-cut. That is the process. It is by action. When after hearing theoretical, that you are separate from this body, if you cultivate that knowledge, then time will come when you'll perceive practically that we are not this body. That means in higher stage of spiritual consciousness the bodily activities, material bodily activities will stop. Only Krsna activities will go on. So that, just like the coconut fruit is separate from the shell, similarly, even living within this body, he will be separated from the body. Jivan mukta sa ucyate. The Sanskrit word is he's liberated even in this life while living in this body. That requires cultivation of the knowledge and practical activities. And that is Krsna consciousness. Not all of a sudden, but there is stage when it will be experienced that he is not this body, he is separate from the body.

Jackie Vaughn: My work, I try to do more for people, especially poor people.

Prabhupada: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they.... So this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody.... This is only development of consciousness. The animals, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children, then interest extended, husband, wife, children. Then, this is family-wise. Then little advancement, of the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection. The example is given, just like there is tree, and the whole tree is full of branches, twigs and leaves and flowers and fruits. So somebody is watering the fruit, somebody is watering the leaf, somebody is watering the branches, somebody the twigs, but everyone is improper. One who is watering the root, he's perfect. He knows how to do things. If you water the root of the tree, it will go to the twigs, it will go to the leaves, it will go to the fruit, it will go to the flower. One who does not know the root, however he might be working very diligently for the poor humanity or community or society, they will never be successful to gain the result, peace and prosperity. They are forgetting the root. And root is God. So they must put water in the root. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, it will be all failure. The history of the world is like that. They are trying for the nation, for the society, for the community, and for the family, but everything has become unsuccessful.

Jackie Vaughn: I suppose we could use the same analogy for black and white getting together. Ofttimes, we all become impatient because of the progress appears to be so very, very slow.

Prabhupada: Slow, but sure, that is wanted. If you are slow, it is not bad, but it must be sure. But if you become very busy without any surety, then what is this? Simply waste of time. Slow, there is English word, "Slow but sure."

Jackie Vaughn: Slow but sure.

Prabhupada: Sure. So what we are proposing, that is sure success. And all other things, they are very busy but no success. This is the difference. So what is the use of that business if you are going to be failure? So we see from the history these attempts have always been failure. Now this man who constructed this house, he never thought that I shall come here to preach Krsna consciousness. So his attempt is failure.

Jackie Vaughn: Neither did he envision I would come here to hear you.

Prabhupada: (laughs) So these small affairs, they'll be failure. Whatever they are busy now in the material world, everything will be failure. And Krsna consciousness movement, if you execute a little bit of it, it can save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. (to devotee:) Find out this verse.

"In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Hari-sauri: Purport: "Activity in Krsna consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Krsna without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Krsna consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Krsna consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Krsna consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent;, whereas, in material activity, without one-hundred-percent success, there is no profit. Ajamila performed his duty in some percentage of Krsna consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was one hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Srimad-Bhagavatam: 'If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?' (SB 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, 'What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?' Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Krsna consciousness carries the person again to Krsna consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brahmana or in a rich aristocratic family, that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Krsna consciousness."

Prabhupada: So everyone should join this movement and be sure of his activity, result, good result. That is real United Nationsto work in Krsna consciousness. Every, any department, if we work for Krsna, then it is perfect. That is sure. And it is open to everyone. Now this American government is giving so much welfare contribution, but still they are not happy. Huge amount is spent in welfare activities, but still they are dissatisfied. Then how you can make them satisfied? The American government is practically giving money to the sufferers, and why they are still suffering? What is the answer?

Jackie Vaughn: It's not clear.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada is saying that even though the American government is giving so much money to suffering people, still the suffering is there, there's no improvement in the condition. So why, what is the cause? What is the answer?

Jackie Vaughn: I think it's all in the theory. We are not making first things first.

Prabhupada: That means whatever we do, we do in ignorance. You do not know what is the first thing or what to do first. That we are correcting. Here is the first thing. Pour water in the root.

Jackie Vaughn: Right.

Prabhupada: We are correcting-Krsna, or God, then everything will be all right. Otherwise failure. Now you American people you write, "In God We Trust." But if I ask you "What is God?" you cannot reply. Then how do you trust in God? Blindly. If we trust in God, we must know that God is actually the only trustworthy person. Then if I put my trust in Him, that is sensible. But if I do not know what is God, no idea, and if we simply write, "In God We Trust," what is this? This is slogan. But actually people are becoming godless. In schools, colleges, they are prohibiting, "Don't talk of God." Do they not?

Jayatirtha: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: Yes. And in the bills they are writing the.... Why this hypocrisy? Why this hypocrisy? In the schools, colleges, you are forbidding, "Don't talk of God," and on the bills you are writing, "In God We Trust." That means if the bill is not paid, don't be dissatisfied, you trust in God. (laughs) Although I'm giving you a piece of paper, don't hesitate to take it. Trust in God, it will be paid. They write, "I promise to pay," but people may not have faith in this word. Actually, I'm paying you hundred rupeesor a thousand rupees-worth currency note, but actually it is paper. But only on faith and trust I'm accepting it, it is one thousand dollars. That much. In last war, the Germany, marks note were thrown in the street. And the bunch of note, taken to the confectioner, "Give me a piece of bread," There is no bread; they throw away. It happened, actually. So these notes are accepted on the understanding that the government will pay. But time may be there when government may be not able to pay. And it has become practically experienced in the last war. So everything should be done scientifically. If we say that in God we trust, then we must know what is God, whether actually we can put our faith and trust in Him, whether He is trustworthy, what is that God. This science should be introduced. There is science; we are preaching that science. Our Krsna consciousness movement means to teach Krsna science, science of Krsna, science of God. So the government should take up, American government, and cooperate with us. Teach the people the science of God. Then it will be a great, benevolent welfare activity. Simply giving their money to the poor, to the needy, will not help them.

Jackie Vaughn: That's an immediate need, and...

Prabhupada: Immediate, you can think like that, but there is no benefit, immediate or belated. There is no actual benefit. The unmarried girls are given this welfare, what is called?

Jackie Vaughn: Welfare.

Prabhupada: But still they are killing their children. Becoming more and more involved in sinful activities.

Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker, I would like to change that whole, what we call, vicious cycle.

Prabhupada: You can change, but if you do not change for the real good, then time will come, another change, another change. That is going on. Just like in Russia they wanted to change. They brought in revolution. But what is changed? They are still begging grains from America. So what is the use of that change? If you have to beg from other country for your food, then what is the benefit of such change? So this is going on. One thing established, and again it is changed. That is described in the sastra: punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. Just like sugarcane. One has taken the juice by chewing and thrown it in the street, and somebody again takes it and chew it, what he will get it? It is already chewed. Experiment. So all, everything has been experimented. Big, big empires, big, big society, big, big nation. That Hitler, he wanted to make something big. Napoleon wanted to make something big. Nothing big has been done. Where is Napoleon? Where is Hitler? So these are all temporary attempts. It is sure to be failure. Because they do not know how to do things. That is the defect. They are simply imagining, concoction. Here is a practical and sure proposal in the Bhagavad-gita. God comes and He's giving personal instruction, that "Do things like this." Your economic problem, your political problem, your social problem, everything.... You ask any question, any problem, the answer is there, perfect. All problems. Why people should not take this perfect answer to all problems? That is intelligence. Experiment we have made so many materially. They have all failed. We were under British rule. So where is that British rule now? And before that, there was Roman Empire, Carthagian Empire, Egyptian Empire, so many, Mogul Empire, then British Empire, now your American Empire. But these things will not help.

Jackie Vaughn: Every one of our presidential candidates is continuing to talk in the same vein, promising and promising all of a temporary nature of solution to our problems.

Prabhupada: No. Solution is here, Krsna consciousness movement. You take this movement after studying it scrutinizingly. You'll find: "Yes, this is the only movement for solution of all problems."

Jackie Vaughn: I think we go back to what you said at the beginning. We trust primarily in the dollar, "In God We Trust."

Prabhupada: That is only slogan.

Jackie Vaughn: Yeah, right.

Prabhupada: But if we trust somebody when we know: "Yes, he is trustworthy," that is better. Blindly trusting may not endure. But knowingly trust, that will be beneficial.

Jackie Vaughn: As a lawmaker for the State of Michigan, every day I'm struggling. I know what you're saying. I would like to. And then my surrounding is what they call much more practical.

Prabhupada: No, it is also practical. We do not propose anything which is impractical.

Jackie Vaughn: But it's so...

Prabhupada: What do you think in our movement is impractical? I have given you a practical example that you are paying so much money to the suffering women, especially who have got children but no husband. So, but what is the result? They're not satisfied. They're still committing sinful activities. So the money, giving money, we're giving, is no solution. That is practical. And here, the same girl, I do not give her any money, but by Krsna consciousness, they're satisfied. It is practical. So therefore people should be enlightened with Krsna consciousness. Then problems will be solved. Otherwise, even you give him some money, that money will be spent and no satisfaction. This is failure. Our monetary problem.... Actually, we have no monetary problem. Krsna has given us money. Our expenditure is more than, I think, two hundred thousand dollars daily. Hm? What is our total expenditure, can anyone say?

Pusta Krsna: Well, with all the constructions, perhaps it's very high.

Prabhupada: But we are getting money. We have no money, but still we can sit down in such a nice palace. This is practical. So money is not problem. The problem is godlessness. So as soon as there is godlessness, there will be suffering, different types of suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita:

Problem, maya is problem.

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Hari-sauri: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable energies, and all of these energies are divine. Although the living entities are part of His energies, and are therefore divine, due to contact with material energy their original superior power is covered. Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter, their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the Supreme Will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and movement by the divine will. Being conducted by the divine will, material nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and destruction of the cosmic manifestation that the Vedas confirm this as follows: mayam tu prakrtim vidyan mayinam tu mahesvaram. Although maya is false and temporary, the background of maya is the supreme magician, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Mahesvara, the supreme controller. Another meaning of guna is rope. It is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly bound by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself. He must be helped by a person who is unbound, because the bound cannot help the bound. The rescuer must be liberated. Therefore only Lord Krsna or His bone fide representative the spiritual master can release the conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or Krsna consciousness, can help one gain such release. Krsna, being the Lord of the illusory energy, can order this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul, and out of His paternal affection for the living entity, who is originally a beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent material nature. The words mam eva are also significant. Mam means unto Krsna, Visnu, only, and not Brahma or Siva. Although Brahma and Siva are greatly elevated and are almost on the level of Visnu, it is not possible for such incarnations of rajo-guna (passion) and tamo-guna (ignorance) to release the conditioned soul from the clutches of maya. In other words, both Brahma and Siva are under the influence of maya. Only Visnu is the master of maya. Therefore He alone can give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas confirm this in the phrase tvam eva viditva, or 'Freedom is possible only by understanding Krsna.' Even Lord Siva affirms that liberation can be achieved only at the mercy of Visnu. Lord Siva says, mukti-pradata sarvesam visnur eva na samsayah: 'There is no doubt that Visnu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone.' "

Prabhupada: The institution is already there. We are conducting Krsna consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Krsna. We are simply preaching Krsna's message. Krsna means God. Krsna means black also. Krsna, this word, (chuckles) means black also. He is following?

Pusta Krsna: Another meaning of krsna is blackish.

Jackie Vaughn: Black is beautiful?

Prabhupada: Why not? He's the most beautiful. Otherwise, why people are attracted? There is a verse in the Brahma-samhita: kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham [Bs. 5.30]; barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarangam. He has got one peacock feather on His head and He's blackish, but wonderfully beautiful. These words are used. Kandarpa-koti-kamaniya. He's so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with His beauty. Cupid is understood to be the most beautiful person within this universe. You know Cupid? Yes. He enchants by beauty. But Krsna's beauty is so great that millions of beauty, kandarpa or Cupid, cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.30]. It is a question of attraction. It is not a question of black and white. Attraction. So unless Krsna is beautiful, why He has got so many millions of devotees? This very word is kandarpa-koti. Barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarangam. His blackness is compared with the black cloud. Asita-ambuda, ambuda means the cloud. The black cloud is full of water. When there is black cloud in the sky, you can be sure that the rain is going to fall down. Not the white cloud. White cloud means no water. Is it not? So you understand this philosophy and add water to the suffering humanity. They are suffering in the burning, blazing fire of material existence. So blazing fire can be extinguished when the water falls from the sky, not by your fire brigade. When there is blazing fire in the forest, it is beyond your control. You cannot get there fire brigade. So these small attempts of fire brigade is useless to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. The water must come from the cloud. That is by Krsna's grace. You have no control over the cloud. But that water wanted. Not your fire brigade water when there is all around blazing fire. The small fire brigade-(imitates bell) dung-dung-dung-dung-dung. It can vibrate very loudly-dung-dung-dung"I'm going to, going to," but they'll go when everything finished. That is practical. I have seen in India. There was a fire in a house, and they came late, when the business is finished. And still they're insisting, "We shall pour some water." (laughter) Everyone asked them, that "What is the use of?" "No, this is our system." (laughter) The house is burnt into ashes, and they are looking the formality, "Yes, we must put some water." So that they can write in their books, "Here we attended the fire and we have..." (laughter) This cheating is going on. In every problem, this kind of cheating is going on. Official, that's all. The same example, you ask to the charity taker of welfare activities. The fire is going on, but officially the government satisfied, "Yes, we are pouring water." So what is the use of pouring water if the fire is going on? But officially, that's all. We must see that the purpose is being carried. No. The house is burnt into ashes, but we are satisfied that our fire brigade man has poured some water, that's all. They do not know that they cannot do any benefit to anyone by this imperfect process. If the whole money of the government is given to us, we can show result within six months how it is beneficial. Will the government give us money? (pause) Actually, people do not want to trust in God. That is the real fact. But this writing of slogan is a formal (indistinct). At the present moment, nobody has got any idea of God nor faith in God. What do you think?

Hari-sauri: Nobody's got any?

Prabhupada: Idea of God, and what to speak of faith in God, or trust in God.

Jackie Vaughn: It's true. Very little faith. "In God We Trust," your original statement.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada wrote one letter to the secretary of the President explaining that you write on your bills "In God We Trust," but who is it that knows about God? So he was asking if it was possible for the government, they could give us some aid and we would educate. We can educate the people.

Prabhupada: No, I did not ask for any aid.

Hari-sauri: Oh. If they would...

Prabhupada: You can get the copy. I never asked for any aid.

Hari-sauri: No, I didn't mean monetary or anything like that. (pause)

Prabhupada: Read it.

Madhavananda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Krsna consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming Godless. If the American people, who trust in God constitutionally, take this movement seriously, it will be a great service to the human society. We are prepared to cooperate in this connection if the American government takes it very seriously. Awaiting your reply with interest. Yours sincerely, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." Dated May 9th.

Jackie Vaughn: Any answer?

Madhavananda: No reply.

Hari-sauri: That was three weeks back.

Madhavananda: Four weeks, over a month. May 9th. (pause)

Prabhupada: Why they are not replying?

Jackie Vaughn: I suppose you were asking too much.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Too much? So am I wrong?

Jackie Vaughn: No, not at all.

Prabhupada: I'm not asking for money.

Jackie Vaughn: I know. But you are doing away with our approach to dealing with problems. As you pointed out so well, it's always piecemeal, of a temporary nature. I do it in Lansing. We have a problem, we patch it up, of a temporary nature. We talk to do this, as a quick answer, solution, and we go away feeling better, that we have at least made, as we say, a step in the right direction. Next year, we'll be back with the same problem. I have this problem.

Prabhupada: Everyone.

Jackie Vaughn: Everyone. Monday I'll go back to the State Capitol...

Prabhupada: That is explained, daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. We think "Now this problem is solved," but actually it is not solved; it has created another problem. Therefore this word is used, daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You, the problems are so great that you cannot solve it.

Jackie Vaughn: Each year it mounts.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jackie Vaughn: It's getting larger and larger, almost impossible to solve.

Prabhupada: Exactly, yes.

Jackie Vaughn: Each year we say, "This year is worse than any year in the history."

Prabhupada: See, this is the experienced government officer's statement. Therefore the word is used, duratyaya. What is the meaning of duratyaya?

Hari-sauri: Very difficult to overcome.

Jackie Vaughn: I submit I contribute to that delinquency. I help them, every day, trying to find answers, always of a temporary nature.

Prabhupada: So you kindly give little attention to this movement. It will solve all the problems. You have read some of our books? No.

Jackie Vaughn: Yes.

Prabhupada: We have all answers to the problems in the Bhagavad-gita, but who is hearing us? The problems and the solutions, they are all mentioned. They are given very nicely. But we do not take it. We create our own solution, imperfect solution.

Jackie Vaughn: I'm struggling.

Prabhupada: Everyone is struggling. Just like you pour water on the leaf of the tree, and still it will fall down. He's perplexed that "I am giving water to the leaf every day. How is it that it is dying?" But he never thinks that "I have not done properly; therefore the leaf is dying." He does not know what is the proper way. So things, if they are not done properly, it will not produce the desired result. That is going on. You have seen our Deities? Our Deity, Krsna?

Hari-sauri: Have you seen the Deities in the temple?

Jackie Vaughn: Yes. I am very fortunate. Twice I've been before you.

Prabhupada: Thank you. Oh, that's nice.

Jackie Vaughn: I'm very grateful.

Prabhupada: Whenever you find time, please come.

Jackie Vaughn: I will.

Prabhupada: Yes. You'll get so many inspirations. (pause) The pathways in the garden, if they are occasionally washed, as far as possible, grow.... [break]

Madhavananda: Today is celebration of snana-yatra, So.... [break]

Hari-sauri: July 18.

Madhavananda: Today is snana-yatra, disappearance of Mukunda Datta and Sridhara Pandita and full moon. Tomorrow is disappearance of Syamananda Gosvami. (end)