Room Conversation

July 27, 1976, London
Prabhupada: He is so rich(?) man. He cannot get nice food even, the primary necessity. Getting jaundice.
Jayatirtha: The main reason why he doesn't.... I think he got jaundice because, he admitted, is that he had Ravi Shankar's brother cooking for him.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: He had Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this natas, they are third class, fourth class. Natas means the artist class, singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the.... They are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, they were not doing. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing, low class. Their hereditary business is like that.
Bhagavan: So you have given everything. You have given all the structure. We have to present it rightly.
Prabhupada: Even, say, hundred years ago, that Girish Chandra Ghosh, he wanted to introduce theatrical performances, imitating the European theatrical performances, man and woman taking part. So he wanted to invite woman artist. Not a single woman joined. Who will go to public stage to dance, respectable girl? They'll never. That is hundred years. I am speaking, say, about forty years ago. In one of our Dayanika(?) men, the girl was to be married, and it is the custom in Indiathe bridegroom's party comes to see the girl, whether she is right. Similarly, the girl's party goes to see the.... So they came to see one of my friend's daughter, and the daughter is very beautiful, rich man's daughter. So one of the bridegroom's party questioned, "You know how to dance?" That was the question to the girl: "You have learned something about dancing and singing?" So she was my friend's daughter, my, that friend, Mukunda Mati. His elder brother was there. He became very angry, that "This rascal is asking our daughter whether she knows dancing and singing." She took it as.... He took it as insult, that "Respectable family, daughter should learn how to dance, how to sing?" So immediately he protested, "No, no, no, she does not know how to dance, how to sing. She's not meant for that purpose. We like, of course, a young girl dancing and singing, but we cannot teach our family members. We spend for that outside. You cannot expect our Mullik's family daughter dancing and singing. No. He is well, good(?)." Actually that is.... Dancing? Singing? What is this nonsense? For a respectable family? It is meant for the low-class professional. Pay them, they will dance. Or go to some prostitute. She will dance. So he said that "We have got some taste for dancing, but not that our family members should do that. We pay for that outside." So this art.... And among the theatrical, Girish Chandra Ghosh could not get a single response from any respectable family. Then he had to seek some young girl from the prostitute class. They became later on famous artists, Kusumakali Dasi, this Dasi.... Nowadays it has become a fashion that aristocratic family should join this cinema and spoil their character. Otherwise it was meant for the.... No respectable man.... You find the Bhagavata description, especially for the brahmanas, the professional who would come. They'll take their reward.
Bhagavan: This class is very influential today. This cinema artist, performer. Whenever there's a Presidential race...
Prabhupada: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from things other view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic play on it(?), and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhagavata. The money will be the criterionno family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be brahmana? If you become a perfect brahmana, who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a brahmana. "Why we shall become brahmana? Starve? For starvation?" Nowadays the colleges, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they.... Nobody.... They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagriva told me. He's not getting any job. There is another, Mr., Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling insurance. And Bon Maharaja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaisnava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaisnava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent.
Bhagavan: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving.
Prabhupada: Why we shall starve?
Bhagavan: We are not starving.
Prabhupada: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here. Live comfortably. You chant Hare Krsna." Then what is the difference between Krsna's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasadam, I become so happy that they are having prasadam and good chance for chanting Hare Krsna, that's all. They are living in the best house.
Bhagavan: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money.
Prabhupada: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokaloka. In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup.
Hari-sauri: Nothing else? No fruits?
Prabhupada: You can keep, if I like I can take. But vegetable soup.
Hari-sauri: What time would you like breakfast?
Prabhupada: Half past seven, eight. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. What is that?
Jayatirtha: Harikesa Maharaja's book.
Bhagavan: No, no. Another one Prabhupada's spoke, the philosophy book.
Jayatirtha: Oh, the philosophy book will be called Dialectic Spiritualism? Ah, very good title.
Hari-sauri: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.
Jayatirtha: Very good title.
Prabhupada: That's a fact. If one actually interested in real philosophy, they must come to spiritualism. Atma-tattvam. That is atma-tattvam. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So long they do not come to this platform of understanding atma-tattva, whatever rascal they are doing, simply defeat, that's all. Parabhava. Simply frustration and defeat. This very word, parabhava, means defeat. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jatah. Why he's defeated? Abodha-jatah. Because by birth he's a rascal. Abodha-jatah. And this will continue yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So long he's not enlightened to inquire about spirit and the science of spirit, he'll remain in that, that, what is called, defeat position or conquered position. So we have to now increase our scope. Everything we have got. And if you don't come to this platform, atma-tattva, then your all attempt will be defeat. You are already defeated, frustrated, simply struggling, that's all. Either take the capitalist or communist, who has conquered? Everyone is defeated. One party may be proud that "We have been victorious." What victory you have got? What is the victory? Not that the communist countries, they are all happy. This is not the fact. Then where is your victory? Simply beating the drum that they have got victory, victory? "We have gone to moon planet. We have gone to Mars." Cheating innocent public. Is that victory? The girls are working that side? No.
Hari-sauri: No, they won't come for another half hour yet.
Jayatirtha: They can come earlier if you like. They can come any time you like.
Prabhupada: No...No, I have no objection. What is that? They'll work that side; I'll sit down here.
Jayatirtha: They should come now.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our program is solid, but if we have to argue with animals, that is a different thing. Otherwise any human being, they will accept. But the modern civilization means to keep the people in general in animal platform, that's all, and cheat them.
Bhagavan: Most of the people who..., they are becoming attracted to this communist philosophy. They have no idea how to practically apply it. All they are saying is "It is an opportunity to take from the rich and give me to enjoy." But they are not seeing any scope of community cooperation. This is all impractical. They are saying, "I will get money from my boss. I will take his wealth and distribute." They are simply materialists.
Prabhupada: "That also distribute for me. More share for me." (laughs) Now there is drought; there is no rain. What the capitalists or communists can do in this connection? If they are able to present any program how to counteract? Then where is your progress? When there is some calamity, you both of you simply (indistinct). That's all. You cannot do anything. Then where is your progress?
Hari-sauri: The reason why the Russians were buying wheat from America...
Prabhupada: Yes?
Hari-sauri: ...was because they had no rain. All their crops failed.
Jayatirtha: Not only that, people aren't inclined to work very hard. The farmers are not very enthusiastic to work very hard, because they work very hard, but they have to give all the fruit away. So because they are karmis, they want the fruit. The state is taking the fruit; therefore they don't want to work.
Prabhupada: Why they shall work?
Jayatirtha: They have no incentive.
Prabhupada: "I'll work and you'll enjoy." Why shall they work? That is natural tendency. This can be possible only for Krsna. "I'll work; Krsna will enjoy." That's all. That is only possible in Krsna consciousness.
Jayatirtha: That's a fact. Therefore it's the only practical communism.
Prabhupada: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Krsna will be satisfied." So that.... Arjuna for his personal, he did not..., decline, but when he saw that "Krsna wants it? All right." That is krsna-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Krsna will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Krsna philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these communists, they will work according to.... Everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce. And they'll have to beg.
Jayatirtha: They've had to introduce capitalistic type incentives in many of the communist countries in order to induce the people to work.
Prabhupada: Not capitalistic. This is Krsna conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Krsna, and for Krsna, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first class, Vaisnava. Yenatma suprasidati. Who knows this verse? Find out this verse.
Bhagavan: Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6]. First Canto. "The first-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction."
Prabhupada: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy?
sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yayatma suprasidati
[SB 1.2.6]
"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."
Prabhupada: So the communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Krsna, there is no question of satisfied.
Jayatirtha: There's no reciprocation.
Prabhupada: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington. It doesn't matter. He's imperfect. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhoksaje. Adhoksaje, this word, is used. God.... They may say that "Where is God?" And therefore the word is adhoksaje: "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used, that "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still, you have to love Him." Adhoksaje. They say, therefore, that this Krsna consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Krsna. They think.... They say, I have an imaginary form of Krsna, a stone, and "Unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Krsna." What is their theory? You know that?
Harikesa: Some people think.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Krsna." So similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture.
Harikesa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority.
Prabhupada: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are.... Why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin..." Because they say, "Where is your Krsna? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal Nehru's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vrndavana, Govindaji's temple, Krsna-Balarama temple? Without invitation-crowd. This is culture. (loud chanting begins in background)
Bhagavan: Marx, he has written only little book, and you have written so many books.
Prabhupada: What does he know, he'll write? What does he know that he will write? He can bluff people for.... That's all. Here is Vyasadeva, vidvan. So
anarthopasamam saksad
bhakti-yogam adhoksaje
lokasyajanato vidvams
cakre satvata-samhitam
[SB 1.7.6]
You have found? Read it.
Harikesa: "The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyasadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth."
Prabhupada: So here is vidvan, and there is a rascal. He does not know how people will be helped. Where you got these beads?
Prabhupada: Purchased?
Bhagavan: Someone gave them as gift, tulasi.
Prabhupada: In Hawaii there are so many tulasis dry wood. We can make those.
Bhagavan: In our preaching this is good point, that we do not alienate the communists and stress on the differences between us and them.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: That can come later.
Prabhupada: But they see practically that "We are theorizing while they're practically doing." So expand this farming project, self-help and peaceful life for spiritual culture. I saw that Philadelphia farm is better organized than all others.
Jayatirtha: Yes, in Pennsylvania they have the best farm. It is the best farm. When they bought it, it already had all this equipment and best flat farmland, whereas New Vrindaban, they have such a...
Prabhupada: Hilly.
Jayatirtha: Hilly, and the place was originally not very nice. Everything is built from scratch.
Hari-sauri: The management in New Vrindaban is a lot more difficult as well, because they've tried to avoid machinery, so the whole concept of farming without any complicated machinery...
Prabhupada: But they have got so many machine. In New Vrindaban there are so many machinery.
Hari-sauri: Not so much tractors and things though. They've been trying to concentrate with just oxen and things like that, so it's taken a while to develop the whole concept, whereas in Pennsylvania they're using so many machines.
Prabhupada: No, we are not producing various things(?).
Jayatirtha: In our Vancouver farm, because we had machinery, we were able to put more land under cultivation in the first year than they had in New Vrindaban after so many years. They were very efficient.
Bhagavan: Thing is, we should not become dependent on machine.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: This unemployment is to their discredit. In the karmis' society the unemployment is a great discredit, now people sitting idle.
Prabhupada: There will be great catastrophe. The unemployment will increase, and people will be very dissatisfied with the.... Especially the black. They will create havoc. This is artificial. They are increasing the production of tire tube and lid. So who will purchase? Nobody lives in the tire tube. Therefore unemployment. So therefore reduce production. You cannot go on increasing. You very much trade this tire tube and so many artificial.... It is very artificial civilization. If you produce.... [break] Here so far milk and food grains are concerned, whatever sumptuously you want to eat, eat. Balance you can keep stock. The milk can be converted into ghee, then keep stock, and the grains can be stocked. Whenever you like, you just grind the grains and have to eat, halava.
Bhagavan: It's very ecstatic.
Prabhupada: If you have got excess, you can distribute free prasadam. "Come on." You make friends.
Bhagavan: You gave one argument before about this meat-eating. You say, "If you want to eat meat, that is all right. Why you don't wait until the animal dies naturally?"
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: "He's going to die one day. So you wait. Now, in the meantime, you can eat cats and dogs."
Jayatirtha: While waiting for the cows to die.
Prabhupada: Yes, cats and dogs they are eating. Yes. Hong Kong. they are eating. Who said that one gentleman came to Hong Kong hotel? Eh?
Hari-sauri: One of the devotees in America. Some man came with his pet dog. So in America they tie up the dogs outside the restaurant, so he did that and he went in. And then he pointed, he showed the doorman his dog, meaning that he was liable to look after him. So after he'd eaten his meal he went out and his dog was gone. So after some inquiry they found out that when he showed the doorman the dog, he misunderstood and thought that he wanted to eat it, that he was bringing his lunch with him, so he took the dog and killed it and served him. He ate his dog.
Jayatirtha: A local policeman said that in England there are more laws protecting the dogs than there are protecting the children. If you beat your children, then no problem. If you beat your dog, immediately they'll come arrest you.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Bhagavan: I've seen in India, they are bringing foreign dogs.
Jayatirtha: Even that one gosvami in Vrndavana, he has got French dogs.
Prabhupada: That poodles. He's rascal. And such a fool, "Jagat-guru." So you go.
Jayatirtha: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)

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