"Life Comes From Life"
Slideshow Discussions

July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Prabhupada: Some talking? There is no talking? This slide's without talking?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, we will make little... We are just testing.
om ajnana-timirandhasya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah
[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]
nama om visnu-padaya
krsna-presthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-
svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari-sauri: I've got a torch, flashlight. (whispering and movement going on)
Prabhupada: You can cover it with some cloth. Take that cloth.
Hari-sauri: Use that cadara on the back of the rocking chair.
Prabhupada: Cadara will be too heavy. Here, take this.
Svarupa Damodara: Now most of these slides will appear in our book, the origin of life and matter, Life Comes From Life. Now Sadaputa and myself made these slides. These are some of the... Only a few slides. We specifically want comments from your Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, whether these slides will be appropriate to be in the book. Now this is the philosophy between the difference between life and matter. So this is sankhya philosophy. The principles and the philosophy, as Srila Prabhupada comments in Srimad-Bhagavatam in the Third Canto, the sankhya philosophy is especially meant for persons who are conditioned by this material world, and by understanding the science of devotional service and sankhya philosophy, one can become free from the modes of material nature. So we want to impose that in order to understand the distinction between life and matter, one must at least have a glimpse of the Absolute Truth, at least some idea of the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to understand the difference between what is life and what is matter. That is why scientists nowadays are so much confused about the concept of life and matter. So in fact the scientist Orgell, in his book The Origin of Life, he starts with saying "What is life? The question 'What is life?' should not be inquired." He says...
Prabhupada: One minute. That Absolute Truth is explained in the Vedanta-sutra, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes into existence, everything emanates. Now that has been discussed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, because Srimad-Bhagavatam is the natural commentary by the same author. So he begins janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. This word is used. He's not dead body, dead matter-abhijnah, like that. In the beginning. That source of everything... Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. Just like a mother gives birth to a child. She knows everything, how the child was born in the womb, how it developed, how it is coming. At least, on the whole, she knows everything. Similarly, the original source of everything is immediately informed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that abhijnah, experienced, knows everything. Anvayad itaratas ca, directly and indirectly, everything it knows. So the origin of everything cannot be a dead man. That is the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Svarupa Damodara: So the scientists, since they do not know the Absolute Truth, they say such fundamental and most important questions, "What is life," should not be asked, say it is very unscientific. That is their verdict. But we say no, that shouldn't be the case. We say what is life should be inquired and it should be understood. Otherwise, how can one study the origin without knowing what it is? It is rather meaningless to study the origin of something which is not known.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So we say, yes, the fundamental and basic requirement is to understand this basic difference between the two principles, life and matter. Now here the Absolute Truth, in the sloka,
The translation says, "My dear respectful mother, I have already described the path of understanding the Absolute Truth by which one can come to understand the real truth of matter and spirit and their relationship." So here it clearly says that in order to understand these basic principles, one must have at least some idea about the Absolute Truth. And it is quite scientific. Comparing our normal scientific disciplines like physics, chemistry and mathematics, in fact this very principle is utilized. But the scientists, not knowing that the axioms, or fundamental truths, are coming from the absolute source. So this is the basic requirement.
Prabhupada: I have heard that mathematics believes by some imaginary thing, minus, so on, like that.
Svarupa Damodara: The absolute numbers?
Prabhupada: Something minus one, like that. Who is mathematician here?
Svarupa Damodara: (laughs) Here is our mathematician.
Prabhupada: All right, so is that the beginning of mathematics?
Svarupa Damodara: What is the beginning of mathematics?
Sadaputa: Well, the beginning of mathematics is counting a number. We have that square root of minus one.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I heard. The beginning is minus one. That is imaginary; it is not fact. But they imagine something at the beginning.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. In fact it is called imaginary number. Square root of minus one.
Prabhupada: Yes, if mathematics begins with imaginary something, why not Absolute Truth? That Absolute Truth must be life. As Bhagavata explains, janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. He must be aware of everything. That means life. That means life. Now the question is how He became experienced? Svarat, independent. Just like we require experience, knowledge, from somebody else. Experienced knowledge is not gained automatically, but the Absolute means that He is full of knowledge. How He got knowledge? Svarat, independently. That is the description. You have to imagine at least like that. It is Vedic injunction, it is the fact, that Absolute Truth independently cognizant of everything. That is Absolute Truth.
Svarupa Damodara: Now we want to describe something about this Absolute Truth. His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada has explained that Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes: janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Now what is the Absolute Truth, and how the Absolute Truth is to be known? Now in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Absolute Truth is described anadir atma puruso nirgunah prakrteh parah. The Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Soul, and He has no beginning, anadi, He has no beginning. And He is also nirguna, He's transcendental to the material modes of nature. And prakrteh para, beyond the existence of this material world.
Prabhupada: The same thing is explained also in the Brahma-samhita, anadir-adi. He's anadi, He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything. Anadir-adi, govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. He is the beginning of everything, but He has no beginning.
Svarupa Damodara: And He is purusa, He's a person. Now how the Absolute Truth is to be known? In Bhagavad-gita it is described bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. The Absolute Truth must be understood as He is only by devotional service. So...
Prabhupada: Otherwise, it is not possible. That I explained this morning, panthas tu koti-sata-vatsara-sampragamyo vayor athapi manaso muni-pungavanam, so 'pyasti yat prapada-simny avincintya-tattve [Bs. 5.34]. Without bhakti, if you go on speculating for many, many years with the speed of mind, if you want to go, still avincintya-tattve, it will remain inconceivable.
Svarupa Damodara: So what it means is that in order to understand this distinction between life and matter one must be a devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes. We raise the question, we challenge these rascals because we are following the path of devotion. We are not scientists. And we could not challenge unless we were convinced. How it is possible? Suppose I am layman, how I am challenging these big, big scientists? It is not... Because we have known it through devotional service, so this is science. That is the difference.
Svarupa Damodara: So these are some of the axiomatic truths that are necessary steps in order to study this problem between life and...
Prabhupada: In Bhagavad-gita it is said bhaktya mam abhijanati: [Bg. 18.55] "One can understand Me through bhakti." And the Vedic injunction is that "If one knows Me, or knows the Absolute Truth, God, then he knows everything." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If somehow or other one knows the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. That is the benefit of knowing the Absolute Truth. So a devotee knows everything. How it is possible? That is explained in Bhagavad-gita,
tesam evanukampartham
aham ajnana-jam tamah
nasayamy atma-bhava-stho
jnana-dipena bhasvata
[Bg. 10.11]
One may challenge, "How a person can know everything?" So Krsna immediately replies that "I help him specifically." Tesam evanukampartham. "Just to show My personal, especial favor upon him, I light up the torch of knowledge, and he knows everything." So if Krsna helps one to know everything, who can check it? That is not possible. This science must be there. We are not all-powerful. Krsna is all-powerful means He can do everything.
Svarupa Damodara: It is also further described about this Absolute Truth as vadanti tat tattva-vidas... [SB 1.2.11].
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
That is the Absolute. Go on.
Svarupa Damodara: Now these statements are quite scientifically valid and sound. Now this will be verified in our next slide that is called the axioms. This is called structure of a theory. In scientific disciplines, specifically in mathematics, now scientists work with a beginning called axioms. There are two types of axioms. First one is logical axiom, and second one is theoretical axioms. Now from these axioms, by inference, actually one deduces these theorems. That's in the second block. From there, by observation, we have this object of study. Now the basic question is wherefrom these axioms coming from? The starting point, axioms, they take it for granted, and actually there is no proof. It is beyond proof, beyond any scientific proof.
Prabhupada: Vedanta-sutra means all axiom. Vedanta-sutra, that is all axiom. Axiomatic truth.
Svarupa Damodara: So the way that science works, also they depend on axioms. But actually, when one analyzes this a little thoughtfully, one should come to the conclusion that actually these axioms are coming from the Absolute. So our first proposition that in order to understand life and matter one must have this, er, some knowledge of the Absolute Truth is scientifically sound.
Prabhupada: I tried to explain something in the beginning of Isopanisad, my lecture in the Conway Hall, what is that Absolute Truth. "Introduction." I have given the example that the Vedas say cow dung is pure. This is axiomatic truth. Now if you analyze cow dung you'll find all the antiseptic properties are there. This is axiomatic.
Svarupa Damodara: Now in the next slide we establish the difference between the life and matter. These are some of the basic differences between the...
Prabhupada: We can't read it. I cannot read
Pusta Krsna: :One side it says "matter," the other side it says "life."
Svarupa Damodara: On the left side, it is matter; on the right side, it is life. Now it is little different from the way that this different set-up by biologists. This is quite unique in a sense because we all take this from the sources of Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. So the first point says that matter is the inferior energy of the Absolute Truth, and on the right column, it is the superior energy of the Absolute Truth. Now in the...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita.
Svarupa Damodara: Then in the second point, under the heading of matter, it is describable to some extent by physical and chemical laws. But on the other hand, life is nonphysical and nonchemical; it is beyond matter; it is transcendental. That is the basic difference.
Prabhupada: That is explained indirectly. What are those verses? Na chindanti, na dahati. Definition by negation. It is never dried up, it is never cut into pieces, it is never moistened. Why don't you find that verse? Negative way. Physical means this can be cut into particle, pieces, but here, it cannot be cut into pieces. Your physical and chemical, you have got idea. Any physical thing can be cut into pieces. But here the negative description is given. It cannot be cut into pieces. Now we have to see what is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces.
Svarupa Damodara: So we say nonphysical, nonchemical.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is quite right. Physical, anything physical can be cut into pieces. Read it.
Hari-sauri: This is 2.20. "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (purport) "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried."
Prabhupada: This is nonphysical. This is not physical. Physical, what is that physical thing which cannot be burned, which cannot be cut, which cannot be soaked? There is no such thing to the physical exterior. Is there anything?
Prabhupada: Therefore not physical. This is definition by negation. In the logic, there is a process of definition by negation. The Mayavadis, they define this Brahman, neti, neti, neti, neti, negation. "It is not this, it is not this." What is, that they cannot tell. They simply negate. That is a partial definition. Yes, go on.
Svarupa Damodara: And the third point, lacks—in matter column—lacks specific inherent complex form, and life column has a specific complex form and activity by nature. Now here we are talking about complex form. Normally the matter itself is very simple by nature, but life tends, when the living entity is in a living body, the matter itself is also very complex when it is associated with life. But matter per se is a very simple, simple structure.
Pusta Krsna: How can you say, though, that the soul has a complex form?
Svarupa Damodara: Well, we get information that in the spiritual world the spiritual world is full of variegatedness. It is not just one variety. It is full of varieties. So we take that as proof of the complex nature of life.
Prabhupada: We see that so long the life is there in the material body, he has got varieties of thoughts. That is the proof that life is full of varieties. As soon as the life is not there, no more varieties, only one variety, dead body, that's all, finished. And as long as the life is there, he has got so many ideas, so many arts, so many philosophies, so many... That is the proof that life is full of varieties. That is the proof. As soon as the life is off, there is no variety. So what do you want, more proof that life is full of variety.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Srila Prabhupada, in this connection, this variegatedness in connection with life, can you take it as some sort of complex structures?
Prabhupada: You can... Because we, at the present moment, we cannot understand, except physics and chemistry, we cannot understand life. So as we do not understand life, so therefore the definition by negation is there. It is not physical, not chemical. It is something beyond. But by practical experience we can see that when there is life, a living man wants varieties. That's a fact. Varieties. Otherwise, why we disagree? I have got some varieties, you have got some varieties. So the conclusion should be tested that living condition or life is full of varieties, therefore the kingdom of life, the spiritual kingdom, must be full of varieties. That is the conclusion.
Svarupa Damodara: But in the..., from our experience, it is quite clear though that matter, as such... For example, let's take a crystal of diamond or, that will be shown later in the slide, that there are... Actually crystal of diamond is built in very simple structures. It's a hexagon, six carbon atoms, one after another, forms a very simple structure. But on the other hand, now when life is in association with matter, if we take a simple cell, the cell is composed of so many big, big molecules like proteins and DNA's and all these giant molecules. And they are wonderfully complex.
Prabhupada: Yes. So what this studying of a dead man, the molecules? When a man is dead, what is the condition of the molecules?
Svarupa Damodara: The molecules will deteriorate to simple molecules. It will degrade from big, big molecules to small molecules. In other words, it tends to be simple. When the living entity is out of the material body, the body itself becomes very simple.
Prabhupada: No varieties.
Svarupa Damodara: No, no variety.
Prabhupada: That I explained.
Hari-sauri: The complexity is there because the spirit soul is complex.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Rupanuga: The characteristic here, Srila Prabhupada says, is that life has specific complex form and activity by nature. So that this activity, complex activity...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained in the Vedanta-sutra, axiomatic. Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). By nature, anandamaya. And variety is the mother of enjoyment. Unless... Just like these bunch of flowers... When there are varieties of flowers, it becomes a very enjoyable bunches. If you simply bring rose, although it is very valuable, it is not so enjoyable. But when there are small, insignificant leaf also, which is not valuable than the rose, but rose becomes beautiful. That is life. And who appreciates it? When a man is living. A dead man cannot appreciate this beauty. There is beauty. Combination of varieties is beauty, or blissfulness.
Svarupa Damodara: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad-gita, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life.
Prabhupada: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhramayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani [Bg. 18.61]. He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhramayan sarva-bhutani. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration.
Svarupa Damodara: In this connection, one quality that is quite visible is the, that matter in association with life, there is a constant flow of matter that biologists describe as metabolism. Means we eat some food, and then prasadam is digested in specific ways by so many chemical reactions in the body. But that happens only...
Prabhupada: That is also stated, aham vaisvanaro bhutva pacamy annam catur-vidham. That digestion is also helped by God. Is it not? Aham vaisvanaro bhutva pacamy annam catur-vidham. Is it not in the Bhagavad-gita?
Hari-sauri: Yes, "I am the fire of digestion."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So that differentiates also the simple matter without life. For example, sometimes it has been asked whether a crystal is alive or not. This is confusing to the scientists. Sometimes they say that a crystal is behaving just like a living body, it grows and this and that, they say. But actually there is no flow of matter. That tells us that crystal is not life. There's a fundamental difference. The last point in this connection is that matter is impersonal and life has personality.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So that implies that matter is unconscious and the life is fully conscious.
Vrsakapi: It's been said sometimes, Prabhupada, that you have said that some rocks have life. Some rocks, some stones, are actually souls in them?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like in the tree there is spirit soul. Everywhere there is spirit soul, but development of consciousness makes difference. The difference between the tree and man is that man is developed consciousness. Consciousness is developed. Tree is not developed. That is difference, but life is there both in the tree and in man.
Rupanuga: What about the crystal? The crystal grows, but we don't say that the crystal has life in the usual sense of the term. Is the crystal also...
Svarupa Damodara: Like diamond.
Rupanuga: Like diamond, crystal.
Prabhupada: Anywhere, wherever there is growth, there is life.
Rupanuga: So there the consciousness is simply not manifest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: In crystal form. Like the stone does not show consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are two kinds of life. Sthavara-jangama. Sthavara means stationary. The stone is also stationary. It never moves. Big mountain, even though it has got life, it is stationary. And a small ant, it is not stationary. It is moving. So there are two kinds of life, stationed and moving. Sthavara-jangama.
Svarupa Damodara: But Srila Prabhupada, in order to present this to scientists in general, we are saying specifically that there is no life in stone.
Prabhupada: No, that one stone may be dead. Just like a tree is standing. But when it is dead, the symptoms are different—there is no more green leaf. But the tree as it is, it is standing. But there is no more green leaf.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but there is a basic difference.
Prabhupada: So similarly we may not understand that life, so long life is there, there is development. There is a stone in Benares, Sila-bandhesvara. Everyone knows that stone is increasing. Still, it is there. So people go to see it. One who has seen that stone ten years ago, you will see it is developed now. So life, symptom of life is growth.
Rupanuga: So Srila Prabhupada, sometimes only a single symptom of life may be demonstrated. Like in crystal there is some growth only, with no other manifestation. Then the crystal may stop growing. Just like a tree...
Prabhupada: Stops growing means dead.
Svarupa Damodara: Even if the stone is growing, there is no metabolism.
Prabhupada: That is different thing. Machine..., we have said that the body is the machine. Then all mechanical arrangement may not be the same in many machines. But it is a machine.
Pusta Krsna: One question I have about this personality. We know from...
Prabhupada: Just add consciousness. When consciousness is not developed, the personality is not developed. Just like tree you cut, there is no personality, it does not protest, "Why you are cutting?" It does not scream. But a man or animal, when you attempt to injure, it screams, it protests. That means consciousness is developed.
Pusta Krsna: How can we prove that the personality...
Prabhupada: This is the proof. Consciousness developed and the symptoms are there. Just like we are studying this. Our consciousness is developed. This discussion is not possible by the animals, although it has got the all life symptom. Therefore because our consciousness is developed, we can inquire. Therefore in the human form of life it is the only business to inquire about the Absolute. Now, athato brahma jijnasa. The animals, they can inquire where is some food, where is some stool. That much. They have no other power. But when one becomes..., gets this machine of human form of body... The Vedanta axiom is "Now it is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." Athato brahma jijnasa. That is real human life, when he inquires about the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is animal life. And there are so many department of education means inquiries. In the human society, there are departmental education. Physics department, chemist department, mathematics department, this department, that... Why? Because there are different inquiries. So Vedanta-sutra says that the prime inquiry is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life. If there is no inquiry about the Absolute truth, then still he is animal. So those who are simply satisfied with the physics and chemistry, they are still animals. They are not human beings. This is the challenge. Still they have not developed the consciousness. And that inquiry, when it is for Krsna, that is the final development. And when he understands Krsna, his life is perfect. Then he goes back again to the spiritual world. He's quite fit to live there. Otherwise, he's unfit, he must be here in this material world. And if he understands Krsna, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is perfection.
Svarupa Damodara: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhana, described in Third Canto in...
Prabhupada: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. [break] ...but matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. He is ever-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy.
Svarupa Damodara: Now understanding these basic differences, to study the origin of life has some meaning. But scientists studying the origin of life, they have no idea about these fundamental differences. So they claim that life actually is a manifestation of matter. In other words, life comes from molecules. They call it "molecule to man" theory. That we will see in the next slide. Now in this slide the molecules is called primordial chemical soup. Now these chemicals are supposed to be formed from simple, reduced substances like water and ammonia and carbon and hydrogen compounds. They are called hydro-carbons. Now these somehow, under the action of ultra-violet radiation or cosmic force, they combine together and form these amino acids. Now these amino acids, in due course of time, form the polymers called proteins. And similarly, several polymeric compounds develop and, given a long period of time, we've shown there chance and given a long period of time, then it's going to bring life, it's going to give life. That is the fundamental background of the scientific study of origin of life. This is what they have proposed. These molecules, somehow they combine, given enough length of time, billions of years as the time period, and then it's bound to happen. They say, given enough length of time...
Prabhupada: Provided he lives billions of years. But he's finished within fifty years. (laughter) And his theory remains. The rascal cannot remain more than fifty years, and he's talking of billions of years. This is the defect. Who will see after billions of years? He is finished within hundred years. These are theories only. We see practically. Egg appears like chemical combination, but if you give, proper fermentation will come, fermentation?
Devotee: Fermentation.
Prabhupada: It comes within few days. Why billions of years? Why should we wait for billions of years? This is nonsense. We see practically a bird can give birth to a child within few days, within a week. Why should we wait for billions of years? What kind of scientist you are? (laughter) Proposing to wait for millions... You nonsense. Who's going to accept your foolish theory? We see practically that within a week, and you say billions of years. Nonsense, stop that. Tell them, "You are nonsense, stop. Don't expose yourself any more." We see here, practically, within a week the life comes. Suppose the egg is a chemical composition. It is, it is chemical composition, that's a fact. But it gives life within a week. Why shall I wait for billions of years? Just see their foolishness. And this is being accepted as scientific.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, actually it is taught in all schools. There's a book called Molecules to Man. It's written by a very famous biologist, and it has been taught in school, saying that you come like this, from molecules, now you become human beings.
Prabhupada: Now what...? Leave aside man. Molecules to chicken. How it is done? What is their answer?
Svarupa Damodara: They say give enough length of time.
Prabhupada: Why shall I give them? Here I see. Within a week, I get.
Pusta Krsna: They'll ask, though, "Where did the first egg come from?"
Prabhupada: First, second, no. We see that... They say you have to wait, give the molecules chance, hundreds of billions of years, then you'll see life. But I'm not going to live for billions of years, neither scientist is going to live. But here I see practically that a small egg, it gives life within one week.
Prabhupada: Life from egg, chicken. It gives life within week. So why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? You show, you make some combination of chemical and show that life is coming within a week.
Svarupa Damodara: We want to defeat this. So in the next slide, in subsequent slides, Sadaputa will show some mathematical calculation showing that this is completely wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is wrong. We can see, even a layman can see. No question of mathematician, a layman can see, here within a week we see life, why shall I wait for millions of billions of years?
Rupanuga: Srila Prabhupada, it is described in the Vedas that life begins as a pea size. In the body, the womb of the mother, the human life is only pea size, emulsification, and then in nine months it develops into this very small series of chemicals and everything, into a full body.
Prabhupada: No, no. In the Bhagavata it is stated that life symptoms begins after five days.
Rupanuga: And consciousness in seven months.
Prabhupada: Not in consciousness, but development.
Rupanuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years.
Prabhupada: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Krsna consciousness and make myself free from this bondage."
Svarupa Damodara: The most remarkable thing is these so-called scientists, is that they believe in the most unscientific statement. Like this long time period (Prabhupada laughs) is the most unscientific. So how can they claim as scientists?
Prabhupada: Yes. That I have already said. We see practically within five days, within seven days, the life is manifest, and these rascals say millions of years, which he'll never see, neither I'll see. And we have to accept such theory. Before seeing that life system, his life will be finished and the student also will be finished. And who is going to see?
Rupanuga: Their trick is that they say it has already happened. Over the past four and a half billion years the time has taken place for this complex form of life to evolve. So they say it has already happened.
Prabhupada: That's all right, we differ in the time. You say millions, billions, and we say seven days.
Vipina: But they'll say that it's able to happen in a couple of days because it's taken billions of years.
Pusta Krsna: The basis of their philosophy is that there's no intelligence behind it, therefore everything is chaotically going on, and by possibility it develops. But our philosophy is that there is intelligence, it can immediately happen.
Prabhupada: We see practically. The egg theory, we can see practically. It doesn't require millions of years.
Svarupa Damodara: So we want to completely wipe out this theory.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually, there is, if we think of not in terms of science, but just in terms of our day-to-day experience, in social, moral, ethical, all levels of consciousness, if one analyzes this a little carefully, the root cause of our complete ethical background at this time is mainly due to this theory that "You are from molecules, and when you finish your body you'll also go back to molecules. So don't worry about all these high-sounding philosophical words. You just enjoy whatever you want and do whatever you like to do." So this type of complete materialistic...
Prabhupada: Irresponsible life.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, meaninglessness. No meaning. So it has no purpose because of this very concept. So at least there's a strong influence, especially in the colleges and the university circles, the students...
Prabhupada: Educational circles. Yes. In the education circles they are made fools. Education means he's a more fool, that's all. That is education. Mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. These fools and rascals, their actual knowledge is taken away, and they are coming out as educated. That we are protesting.
Hari-sauri: You once called them slaughterhouses. Slaughterhouses of education.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes, I have said, yes. Means whatever little education he has, that is also finished.
Svarupa Damodara: So, by the mercy of His Divine Grace, if we can eliminate this theory then we can establish Krsna consciousness on firm scientific basis.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is there. My order there.
Svarupa Damodara: And there is a great necessity...
Prabhupada: Yes. To save the people from this foolish type of education.
Svarupa Damodara: Now in the next slide we'll show that... Actually, there were some previous scientists who were not actually atheists, rather, they had some sort of devotee qualities. And one scientist called Pasteur, he actually proved that life cannot come from matter. That is shown in the next slide. So this is the experiment. It was in...
Prabhupada: This Pasteur? There are many Pasteur Institutes.
Svarupa Damodara: This is the man, Pasteur.
Prabhupada: He has got many institutes.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, it is in his name, Pasteur. He is a famous scientist. He was a chemist and biochemist, and he did this experiment in the 1860s. Now the flask... This experiment is called a "swan-neck" experiment because the shape of the neck of the flask looks like the neck of a swan. So it is the famous "swan-neck experiment." Now, at that time, it was quite amazing that even the so-called famous Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato and all these philosophers, even they believed that life actually comes from matter. They had all complete materialistic view of life, completely on the bodily concept. Now, at that time...
Prabhupada: But Socrates did not believe like that.
Svarupa Damodara: Socrates also believed in material concept.
Rupanuga: No, Socrates did not think he was the body.
Prabhupada: He separated body from the soul.
Rupanuga: But after Socrates they all were like that. Socrates, you said once to me, was the last philosopher in the Western world of any value. At least, he knew the difference between body and soul. But after that they all became nonsense.
Devotee: (indistinct) arguing that rice can bring forth scorpions, he said that can happen.
Svarupa Damodara: That... Prabhupada said that rice can give scorpions? Something like that, scorpion comes out of rice.
Svarupa Damodara: Where is this, Srila Prabhupada? Is it in...?
Prabhupada: In the Nyaya-sastra, it is there. Tandula-vrscika-nyaya. Tandula means rice, and vrscika means scorpion. The scorpion coming out of the heaps of rice, so therefore rice is producing scorpion. This logic is wrong.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, so but people then believed like that. So Pasteur, actually he believed strongly in God, and he wanted to disprove that theory, and, in fact, he got prize for doing this experiment from a French academy and, during that year... This flask contains sugar solution and with some yeast to ferment at the beginning. But now the experiment was to completely kill any germs inside the flask by heating, in the beginning, and then cool it down automatically and to keep for some time, about two or three days...
Prabhupada: Sterilization.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, sterilization. And then see whether there is any life developed within that broth. Now in the first flask, the neck is still attached to the flask. Now Pasteur found that there was no micro-organisms fermenting the flask, in the solution inside the flask. But after some time he cut the neck of the flask, that is in the second flask, then as soon as the neck is cut, then microorganisms from the air, surrounding air, atmosphere, entered into the flask, and then the solution is fermented. So that was actually the proof that without presence of the micro-organisms from outside, from the atmosphere, then life cannot grow into that matter.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Vedic theory. That is explained in the Bhagavatam.
Svarupa Damodara: And here he has a nice quote, Pasteur. Somebody can read that?
Hari-sauri: Says: "Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of the modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the works of the creator."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So he believed actually completely in the divine concept, divine personality. But unfortunately this experiment has been misinterpreted by these demoniac scientists.
Prabhupada: That is also Vedic conception, that sex between man and woman is not the cause of life. Unless the living soul comes in the proper situation, the man's secretion, woman's secretion combined together emulsifies, and it creates a proper situation for the rest of the soul. So contraceptive method means that emulsification is disturbed. It does not create the proper situation; therefore pregnancy does not happen. Or imperfect discharge. The main point is that the two discharges, they create a situation wherein the living entity comes and rests. Then it will grow. Not that that is the cause of life. The mixture of two secretions is not the cause of life. That creates a proper situation, and the life comes. And if the situation is not favorable, the soul cannot stay. It has to go to somewhere else. So by the order of Krsna, he was to come to take shelter there, but this man and woman checked it, therefore it is sinful; he is to be punished. Just like one apartment is fixed up for me, and if somebody checks, does not allow me to enter, that is criminal. That is criminal, he is to be punished. Unlawful detention. But they do not know the laws of nature, how it is working. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. The law of nature is working very silently, subtle. But they do not know. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Rascal is so fool that he thinks that "I can do everything, whatever I like." Similarly, killing of animal. "Life is eternal," one can argue, "then what is wrong? Even I kill, the soul is alive." No, the same argument that this soul was to live in a particular type of body under the laws of nature, and you have checked, and he has to take again a similar body to fulfill the duration. Therefore you have done criminality. I have got lease for live in this room for certain period. If prior to the expiry of the lease, if the landlord drives me away, that is illegal. He will be punished.
Rupanuga: That is like abortion.
Prabhupada: Everything is on that principle, that you (are) violating the laws of nature, therefore you are criminal, you have to be punished. You cannot do it. Ahankara-vimudhatma.
Rupanuga: Like if you are situated in your apartment and someone comes and forces you out of your apartment, that is like abortion.
Prabhupada: That is abortion. By force you are destroying the shelter. Therefore you are criminal.
Svarupa Damodara: So we can utilize this experiment.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is... When the life comes from outside, then there is germination.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the perfect theory.
Svarupa Damodara: So life comes from life.
Prabhupada: As I have already explained. It is not the man and woman sex creation. The life comes from outside. The solution was there, but life comes out. The same example. The solution of man and woman is there, but life must come there. Then there will be pregnancy. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. Find out this, Third Canto. (pause)
Rupanuga: After this experiment, Srila Prabhupada, scientists reinterpreted the experiment to mean an entirely different thing. Can you explain that, Svarupa Damodara Prabhu, How they made it seem the opposite of what Pasteur intended?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, there are two interpretations. One is saying that give enough length of time, long time period in this Pasteur's experiment, then they are proposing that something is bound to happen.
Prabhupada: The same thing—you are giving more time, and here it is less time. But more time means you are expecting something to come. That is our answer. Here you are giving more time when the situation is not favorable. So more time means when the situation will be favorable the life will come from outside. That is our answer. Here the situation is favorable, the life has come immediately. But you are waiting. Waiting means you are waiting, the life coming from outside, not this solution will... Is it not? Waiting means you are just waiting for the favorable situation, to receive.
Svarupa Damodara: Second point was they intend to...
Prabhupada: But this time factor is answered. You are waiting. You cannot do that. You are waiting for this favorable situation.
Rupanuga: They say wait..., "In the future, after I die..."
Prabhupada: That's all right, but why shall I wait if I can get immediately? That is intelligence.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, they are cheating.
Prabhupada: Cheating. That's all. Which can be done in few days, why shall I wait for millions of years?
Hari-sauri: That verse, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Karmana daiva-netrena? Yes.
sri-bhagavan uvaca
karmana daiva-netrena
jantur dehopapattaye
striyah pravista udaram
pumso retah-kanasrayah
[SB 3.31.1]
"The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semina to assume a particular type of body."
Prabhupada: The life comes from the man. The living entity takes shelter of the semina, and the semina is discharged in the womb of the woman, and if the situation is favorable, then the living entity remains there and that body develops. This is pregnancy. And that yoni, that mother, is situated, selected by daiva-netrena, by superior management: "This man has worked..., this living entity has worked in such a way, he should go to such and such womb." Then if he goes to a queen's womb he becomes a prince; if he goes to the dog's womb he becomes a dog. The mother gives the body. And the superior's order is there, "Now you must go to the dog's womb. He must go to the queen's womb." Otherwise, how it is from the birth one is prince, another is dog, if there is no superior? Who likes to become a dog? No. But according to his karma, by superior arrangement, he has to take. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. He has infected the contamination of material modes of nature, and he must develop a type of body according to that consciousness. Just like if you contaminate some disease, germ, then you must suffer from that disease. This is the mystery of birth. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Otherwise, why there are difference of varieties of life? Sat, asat, something good, something bad. That he does not know. He works independently, defies the laws of nature, and becomes implicated. And on account of dull brain, he is punished, "Stand up here for ten thousands of years. Become a tree," that's all. That is the result of his dullness. "Remain here for ten thousand years, a dull brain. Even one cuts, you cannot protest. You suffer all kinds of natural disturbances." This is very sinful when you become a tree. And they do not make any distinction between life and matter. These things are going on. There is no knowledge, and they are passing as scientist, as philosopher. Why varieties of life? What is the scientific explanation? One life, he is prince; one life, he is tree. Why this difference? Is there any explanation? There must be some explanation. It is also life, it is also life. Why one life has got this prince body, another this tree body? Karanam..., Bhagavad-gita, karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The cause is association of different types of material modes of nature. If you keep yourself dull as the tree, without associating with the modes of goodness, without becoming a brahmana, then you become a tree. That's all. And if you become a brahmana, then develop your association with goodness and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore human life should be fully engaged, athato brahma jijnasa, simply for understanding Brahman. And as soon as you understand brahma-janati iti brahmana, then you are brahmana. And as soon as you are brahmana, then you act as a brahmana, sattva samo damas titiksa arjavam jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Then you become Vaisnava. When you become Vaisnava, tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti, you are hankering after Visnu. Then your life is success. And to keep them dull brained, like these trees and mountains, that is the greatest disservice in the human society. They have got the capacity to become a brahmana, and they are keeping him just like a dull-brained mountain and tree. That we want to stop this. It is suicidal, suicidal to the human society. They have got the chance of becoming a brahmana, and they are keeping them as dull-brained trees and mountains. The modern civilization, most harmful civilization. Denying the facility. One has got the capacity to become a brahmana, and they are denying the facility, to keep him to remain like hogs and dogs. Whole day and night, work hard to find out some stool, and as soon as we get some stool, a little strength, then have sex without any discrimination. This is civilization. The Vedic civilization forbids: nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]. If you have created a civilization like the hogs who are working day and night hard to find out some stool, and as soon as he eats some stool, his sex power is agitated, and he doesn't care whether mother, sister or daughter, that is hog's life, hog civilization. Work day and night, and have sex. This is hog civilization. And next life become a tree, become a dull-headed tree, a dull-headed stone, mountain. Or dull-headed elephant. Who knows the laws of creation, how one becomes elephant, how one becomes hog, how one becomes a demigod? Do the scientists know it? Then? Where is the knowledge? The knowledge is "Wait for million years, then you'll see life." Just see.
Svarupa Damodara: That's their most favorite slogan.
Hari-sauri: "Wait."
Prabhupada: Just see. I'm immediately going to become a dog, and I have to wait for millions of years. Just see. This is their nonsense. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], as soon as you give up this body, you get another body. The greatest scientist, Krsna, says. And he says "Wait for millions of years." So shall I take Krsna or the scientist? Krsna says "Immediately," and you haven't got to wait for millions of years for a boy to become a young man. It takes few years. Does it require millions of years for a boy to grow as young man? By nature's way, it is immediately, a few years. Every moment, the body is changing. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13]. Anyway, fight with this ignorance. Krsna consciousness means fighting with ignorance. That's it. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. What is the next verse? You read it? That is very interesting chapter. You read the purport.
Pusta Krsna: "As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semina of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semina of the father into the mother's womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who has transferred to the Andha-tamisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell. Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gita that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retah-kanasrayah, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semina of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semina and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul, simply by sexual intercourse."
Prabhupada: This is outside. This is not the combination of the solution. The soul is coming from outside. The same theory. It is not the solution which is creating life.
Pusta Krsna: "The materialistic theory that there is no soul and that a child is born simply by material combination of a man's and woman's semina is not very feasible. It is unacceptable."
Prabhupada: Next verse.
Prabhupada: He's giving description of one day, one night, next night, next night, like that, every description.
Translation: "On the first night, the semina and ovum mix, and on the fifth night, the mixture ferments into a bubble."
Prabhupada: The same thing.
Pusta Krsna: "On the tenth night it develops into a form like a plum, and after that, gradually it turns into a lump of flesh or an egg, as the case may be." Purport. "The body of the soul develops in four different ways according to its different sources. One kind of body, that of the trees and plants, sprouts from the earth; the second kind of body grows from perspiration, as with flies, germs and bugs; the third kind of body develops from eggs; and the fourth develops from an embryo. This verse indicates that after emulsification of the ovum and semina, the body gradually develops either into a lump of flesh or into an egg, as the case may be. In the case of birds it develops into an egg, and in the case of animals and human beings it develops into a lump of flesh."
Prabhupada: Then? Next verse.
masena tu siro dvabhyam
linga-cchidrodbhavas tribhih
[SB 3.31.3]
Translation. "In the course of a month, a head is formed, and at the end of two months, hands, feet and other limbs take shape. By the end of three months, the nails, fingers, toes, body hair, bone and skin appear, as do the organ of generation and the other apertures in the body, namely the eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth and anus."
Prabhupada: The same thing. Fermentation is going on, and the living entity takes a form. Then flies. And they say, from the water it is coming, flies, mosquito. The same process for development. That's all. Everything is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, what happens to the soul when you have an abortion, though? Where does it go?
Prabhupada: Goes to another body. Dehantara. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. If you do not allow him to this body, he goes to another body. Just like if you drive me from this apartment, I must go somewhere. I must find out another apartment. It is not that I am finished. You force me to go out of this apartment. So I go to a friend's house or anywhere, I must go.
Devotee (1): Would that also be due to that soul's karma, that he has gone from being aborted on to another body?
Prabhupada: Not necessarily, but you create a karma. You are responsible for that.
Hari-sauri: So it's not necessarily that he's receiving some sinful reaction from past work that he's not allowed to enter.
Prabhupada: That may be, but you are responsible for that. Because you are driving me from this apartment by force. Actually, in a higher sense, that is accepted, that he was to be driven away. But because you are driving, you are responsible for that.
Svarupa Damodara: Now this experiment, another interpretation of these material scientists is that they claim that this experiment disproved the vital theory. But on other hand, actually, the opposite is true, that he proved that there is a vital theory, rather, that spirit must be there. That was actually proved by this experiment also. But the mentality of these scientists are so demoniac that they twist the truth around... [break] RNA is a big molecule and that is actually transferred from this DNA molecule. DNA molecule, they call it the master molecule from which everything comes, all the molecules. Now if we see this carefully, we can see at every step that there is a specific direction and information without which this whole machinery will break down.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Find out this verse. Vedais ca sarvair... So "If you want to acquire knowledge how these molecules are working, so you must know it is coming from Me, the direction is coming from Me." You are waiting, wherefrom this direction is coming. Krsna says "This direction is coming from Me." Mattah, "from Me." Then the Absolute Truth, it is recognized.
Pusta Krsna: And the scientists are mistaking the effects for the causes? The molecules are working under Krsna's direction.
Prabhupada: Working under the direction, yes, under the direction of the Supersoul. That is stated, mattah, "from Me."
Hari-sauri: Shall I read it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham
[Bg. 15.15]
"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed, I am the compiler of the Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."
Prabhupada: So you are searching, you are surprised how this direction is coming. Here is the answer, mattah, "from Me." The answer is there.
Sadaputa: A comparison can be made with things like this, and, say, a computerized factory. A computerized factory, there has to be direction all the time, or else it breaks down.
Prabhupada: Yes, that direction is coming from Krsna. He is all-perfect.
Svarupa Damodara: The instructions are given so vividly here, that first there is called the initiation step. It has to get specific information coded in this, they are called bases, and now, then it elongates, and then finally it's called stop signal. There's some message coming that "You stop right there." And if there is some mistake or something wrong along the path, then there will be a correction signal: "You made a mistake, so correct there." This type of...
Prabhupada: Just see how perfect. How perfect it is. (laughs) Purnam idam purnat purnam udacyate [Isopanisad, Invocation]. Because the direction is coming from the purnam, complete, so correction is made and everything is done, everything nicely. Because the direction is coming from the complete perfect, there cannot be any mistake. That's it.
Svarupa Damodara: So this is actually the first step of protein synthesis. In order to make proteins, this messenger RNA has to be transcribed from this DNA molecule. In the next step you'll see the final step for protein synthesis. Now there are also RNA's—they are called transfer RNA, those white-colored, white and yellow-colored things. (laughter) Each of them has to bring a specific amino acid, coded to a specific code, three base codes, base pair. Now each of them has to bring a specific amino acid and to put it together in a very specific manner. They cannot scramble. Because if it scrambles there's not going to be...
Prabhupada: Again mistake, again mistake.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So it cannot happen.
Prabhupada: Just rightly. So much direction is there, perfect.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So like that, then, when the..., once they bring these amino acids one by one, then they stick together, and that also process is done by enzymes. There are so many steps involved, and very intricate. It is actually done by a catalyst called enzymes. Enzymes are also very big molecules, actually they are also proteins, and in each step the enzymes are so specific that they do only one specific function just for the right purpose, and once this is done then slowly the protein separates at the right time and with the proper length and proper number of amino acids. In this way, actually we can prove in every case that...
Prabhupada: Perfect direction.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, the direction of the Supersoul is a necessity. In whatever condition we look at, even in the molecules.
Prabhupada: So nice management, there must be nice direction.
Rupanuga: No question of chance.
Pusta Krsna: Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham. Krsna is in every atom.
Prabhupada: Yes, and He... If somebody says how the atoms are working like that, the Krsna's..., Brahma says, andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham. He is within the atom also, the Supreme. Therefore it is acting so nice. Eko 'py asau racayitum jagad-anda-kotim [Bs. 5.35]. Whole material world is going on under His direction, and He is acting within the atom also. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham. As He is directing this cosmic arrangement, similarly He is directing from the atom, within the atom also. That is omnipotency.
Svarupa Damodara: So we want to develop these concepts and prove...
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna will help you.
Svarupa Damodara: Now later on, when Sadaputa speaks, there will be similar concepts, but that is applied to the human platform called inspiration-inspiration and proving the existence of Paramatma, Supersoul. Actually, it ties together very well. Even from the molecular level we can see this, and in the human platform actually it is very vividly,...
Prabhupada: Manifested.
Svarupa Damodara: We can feel it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So in all branches of study, either it is physical or chemical or mathematical, in all branches of science, we want to show the existence of Krsna.
Prabhupada: His hand is working.
Prabhupada: Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is the fact. That is Krsna conscious.
Svarupa Damodara: So these are some of the chemical concepts that I described earlier. Next Sadaputa will take over, and he'll describe the mathematical and physical concepts of proving the existence of Paramatma.
Prabhupada: Yes, do it.
Pusta Krsna: Would you like to (indistinct) tonight Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Why not? What business we have got? (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: Shall I offer it for you?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Sadaputa: This slide shows..., these are the laws of nature according to physicists. And the point we make is that this is their understanding of the final cause of things, and it's very limited. Actually, on this one page, these equations describe everything that goes into all the actions and interactions of chemistry according to their present understanding. And, so there are two main points to make about this. Number one, these are very..., these laws describe very simple forces, pushes and pulls between atoms and things like that. And so intuitively it is very hard to imagine why such simple forces should cause anything complex to organize itself together. Now the scientists customarily make the assertion that laws like this are universal, but one thing we can notice is they have no proof of that. These laws which they say are universal are only studied in certain limited experimental situations with inanimate matter, and then they extrapolate and they say that they apply to everything. But actually the equations are so hard to solve even for reasonably simple molecules that they can't actually test out their assertion. So it's actually just a bluffing statement. So in this slide we wanted to point out how limited these laws are, how limited their concept of the laws of nature is. The next slide, according to the scientist's idea, there are two things going on—these laws and also chance. So this is a calculation showing what happens if you just have chance acting to form one of these proteins that Svarupa Damodara was talking about, and you can calculate... Actually here you calculate, suppose you threw a protein together at chance—and here we even allow a ten percent error, you're allowing to get it wrong among ten percent of the proteins—but still chance comes out to ten minus two-hundred-and forty-fourth-power. Now the scientists are always saying if you wait for a long enough time, even something very unlikely can happen; but here we have a calculation of how long you'd have to wait, according to mathematics and the probability theory, and even if you assume an unrealistically high rate of forming proteins at random, still you'd have to wait, according to this, ten to the hundred-and-sixty-seventh-power billion years. And that's a little bit too long. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. That is mathematics.
Svarupa Damodara: That's longer than Brahma's life.
Sadaputa: So mathematics shows that chance alone would never begin to produce the things that go into life, because this, say, is just for one protein, but it's estimated in the simplest cell that they experiment with that there are some three thousand proteins. This is what they estimate. And in a human, in a single cell of the human body, they estimate three hundred thousand, or even three million. It's just an estimate. But it shows that chance is completely unrealistic. Now the scientists will say that both chance and natural laws somehow mysteriously go together in what they call natural selection to produce living structures. In the next slide, this is also a calculation, and it shows that that is not correct either, at least as far as the mathematics goes. What this says is suppose you look at the earth and you're going to wait four point five billion years—that's what they estimate is the age of the earth—and ask what is the chance of finding a given organized structure. And mathematically there's a thing called information theory, and you can show that the chance of getting an organized structure with a high level of information goes down exponentially, so that for an amount of information higher than that of the laws that cause these things to move, the chance goes down practically to zero. So it wouldn't happen. So this gets kind of complicated, but there's a basic point behind it; namely it indicates that the natural laws that are causing things, like that list of those laws, must already have in them, built into them, whatever is going to be manifested. That is, if some given structure can be manifested in the material world, that means the laws that are causing things must already have at least that much built into them. But their understanding of natural laws, the laws are too simple, too short to have that kind of thing built into them. So there's that argument. We'll go on to the next one. This is some mathematical formulas related to that. I don't think we should dwell on that. This slide right here gives an example of the kind of structures you find even in simple organisms. This is a bacterium. When they look at it under a microscope, they can see that this bacterium has a reversible motor built into it, and this motor spins a spiral flagellum, and by spinning it it propels the bacteria through the water, just like a submarine. So this very sophisticated motor is built into the wall of the bacterium. So that shows the kind of structures for which designs would have to be there. Actually, the scientific explanation, the way that they explain how this comes about, is completely impossible, because they would say that either by chance it came about all at once—and the chances are way too small, so that would never happen—or else it would have to come by small stages somehow. But what would be a small stage in the formation of a workable motor? Can't even think of how that would work. So it doesn't make much sense. So what we wanted to argue was that these living structures are very highly complex, they have a very great amount of information needed to specify them, and then mathematically it follows that this evolution process can't happen, because the probability is way down, it's something impossible. So we wanted to argue that. The next slide—whoops, we're going the wrong way, there. We wanted to compare some structures. This is the chemist's idea of what a diamond..., the top picture is a chemist's idea of what the structure of a diamond looks like. It's based on very simple repeating patterns. It's reasonable perhaps that chemical pushes and pulls could produce a simple design like this just by pulling the molecules together. The lower thing is a structure for graphite, which is another simple design built on hexagons. But on the other hand, in living systems you have things like this. (shows slide) According to the way they've analyzed it, there are chemical structures of this complexity. So we'd like to argue that this requires a very large amount of information to specify this thing, and so the simple natural laws couldn't account for this. On the other hand, it's very reasonable to suppose that an intelligent designer can account for things like that. These protein structures that Svarupa Damodara was pointing out, it's not just any old structure, but it performs a very specific function within the cell, just like a little automatic machine of some kind. So we'd like to argue that the chance and molecular forces theory won't explain things like this, but to say that there is an intelligent designer would be a sensible explanation. The next slide, this shows some of the complexities of what goes on inside a cell, and it's only a fraction of what is there. It's hard to read, but each little bit of print refers to some very complicated chemical reaction involving big molecules like the one in the last slide. So there are hundreds of reactions like that on this one page, and this page is one out of four from a chart that we found detailing some of these things. This metabolism goes on even in the most primitive cells like this bacterium, and yet it's only a fraction of the total of what goes on. The scientists will admit they've only made a fractional study of all that's going on in these cells. So that kind of argument is one line of reasoning we'd like to present. (another slide) Now this refers to another thing. We'd like to describe the concept of consciousness as being something not material—nonphysical and nonchemical. And it turns out that actually in modern physics that's already a basic principle, and it's been that way for the last fifty or sixty years, but that's not widely admitted or taught in the schools. But actually in modern physics, it's called quantum mechanics. They realize that in order to describe physical processes you have to include the observer in the picture; you can't describe these things without accounting for the observer, and so they made an analysis. This was done by von Neumann, who was one of these physicists. He analyzed the difference between the observer and the observed. So here we have a man looking through, say, a microscope at some object, and you can see that in this case you can draw the line between the observer and the observed. So the man is observing the microscope plus object. And physically there are, according to the physicist's idea, there are these equations, represented by number one, equation number one, which describe all the molecules and forces of interaction on the observed side. But there's another kind of equation that goes in quantum mechanics, which corresponds to the observer's side, and this equation is completely different from the first equation. So this indicates that the observer must be something different in nature from the observed. Now the next slide shows here the boundary between the observer and the observed is moved. It's kind of arbitrary. You can move the boundary back so now the observed becomes the eyeball and the microscope and the object, and the observer is still on the other side. And the basic idea is you can move this boundary back, step by step, and on one side you can put, at least in principle, more and more of the parts of the body into the observed system, but on the other side you still have the observer, and he continues to be described by an equation that can't be reduced to the force laws that are used to describe the observed. So the conclusion is that the observer must be something nonphysical. He's not actually part of that physical body at all. So that's actually basic in quantum mechanics. So we wanted to present that. Now this slide... There's another line of evidence here. It's the inspiration, and Srila Prabhupada has said that intelligence is the form direction of Supersoul. So it's interesting, it's really striking to observe how various people create things in mathematics and science and art, like that. It's very striking. So we made two examples here. This one is a mathematician names Gauss. He lived in the nineteenth century, and his concern was to solve mathematical proble
ms. The interesting thing is that in a very difficult mathematical problem, the person never solves it by figuring it out consciously, step by step. But what happens is that he tries very hard to figure it out for a long time, and nothing happens, and then all of a sudden the answer comes to him. So it's hard to read that quote. This is a quotation by this Gauss describing how that happened to him.
Devotee: "I've succeeded not on account of my painful effort, but by the grace of God. Like a sudden flash of lightning, the riddle happened to be solved. I myself cannot say but when the conducting thread which connected what I previously knew with what made my success possible."
Prabhupada: So the chance theory is the grace of God.
Svarupa Damodara: Grace of God?
Prabhupada: Yes, because if God sees that the rascal is trying for so many years, "All right, give him a chance." (laughter) That is His mercifulness. So what they call chance theory, that is grace of God.
Svarupa Damodara: So God is all-merciful.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is the proof.
Sadaputa: Actually, this couldn't come about by just chance, because the number of possibilities...
Prabhupada: There is, but he takes it as chance. All the possibilities taken together he is given by God. That he does not know. He takes it as chance. But there is no question of chance. It is the gift of God.
Sadaputa: Next example, this is another example taken from music. This example is Mozart. Mozart was a musician. He composed symphonies. And in that quote which-I'll just summarize it instead of reading it—he explains how it was that he created these symphonies. He explained that actually what happened was that ideas just came into his mind, melodic themes and so on, and he says "Whence do they come I do not know, and I have nothing to do with it." And actually what would happen was that an entire symphony would just blossom into his mind, and he wouldn't even know where it was coming from. So...
Prabhupada: Unknown.
Svarupa Damodara: Unknown source.
Sadaputa: So we want to argue that this demonstrates that Supersoul is acting. These cases of these very famous musicians and scientists and such, there are many of them, they can be multiplied at great length, and they are very striking that way.
Svarupa Damodara: We are about to make a slide of Kaviraja, Krsnadasa Kaviraja, about the, writing Caitanya-caritamrta on the same line, direction of Supersoul. We had... But couldn't put together. We'll make several slides along these lines proving the existence of Supersoul on the human level.
Sadaputa: We are also thinking that this inspiration illustrated the modes of nature and the law of karma to some extent, because like the mathematician had to struggle very painfully for a very long time without getting his result, and then he got it, so that seemed more like the mode of passion and like that. But Mozart apparently just got these things without having to struggle for them, as though that was his past karma or something. Next slide. This is a summary of the basic kind of argument we wanted to make. The picture on the left, those ovals represent states of matter, configurations of matter, and they go from simple, toward the bottom, like just a chemical solution, up towards more complex as you go up, like living bodies of different kinds. The theory of evolution is sort of indicated in the left-hand one. According to that theory, you have very simple natural laws, and you start out with simple physical states, but somehow these natural laws produce a progressive increase in order, as indicated by those arrows going up. But actually we want to argue that simple natural laws don't have the power to do that, and that the situation on the right is what would happen if you just had simple natural laws, namely they would keep shoving things around on a simple level but never produce anything complex. The next slide, though, indicates that if you had natural laws with a high order of complexity, then they could manifest physical situations with a high order of complexity also, depending on how much was built into the laws. So we wanted to, in these two examples, indicate a higher and higher order of natural laws. So what we wanted to do was then combine these two things together, on the one hand that consciousness is not a physical phenomenon, and on the other hand, that in order to get...
Prabhupada: This is physical, but subtle.
Sadaputa: The actual perception of the soul is not...?
Prabhupada: Perception of the soul is there, but this physical demonstration is of the soul by consciousness. The more it is purified, it becomes spiritual. The consciousness is there. The more it is purified, then it becomes spiritual. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. It has to be purified. The water is crystal clear, but when it comes in touch with the earth it becomes muddy. But again you can clarify it, and water becomes crystal clear. That consciousness is Krsna consciousness.
Sadaputa: So we wanted to then say that, a few lines of reasoning, that you have to have higher-ordered laws to cause complex forms...
Prabhupada: That higher-order laws is explained, mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10].
Svarupa Damodara: Mayadhyaksena prakrtih?
Prabhupada: Suyate sa-caracaram, hetunanena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. Things are going down on account of the superior direction.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually, that is shown in the next slide.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Devotee (1): What are you doing?
Sadaputa: I want that next slide on there. There it is.
Prabhupada: There. Yato va imani bhutani jayante.
Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Here is vasudevah sarvam iti. Find out this verse, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. This is Vasudeva. Vasudeva must be, and from Him, everything is coming. That is real knowledge.
"After many births and deaths..."
Prabhupada: It is conclusion, vasudevah sarvam iti. So you are mahatma, sudurlabhah, not ordinary rascal mathematician. (laughter) But you are real mathematician, that vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Read the purport.
Hari-sauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." Purport. "The living entity, while executing devotional service or transcendental rituals after many, many births may actually become situated in transcendental pure knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of spiritual realization. In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism. But when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service. Realizing this, he becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and surrenders to Him. At such a time one can understand that Lord Sri Krsna's mercy is everything, that He is the cause of all causes, and that this material manifestation is not independent from Him. He realizes the material world to be a perverted reflection of spiritual variegatedness and realizes that in everything there is a relationship with the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. Thus he thinks of everything in relation to Vasudeva, or Sri Krsna. Such a universal vision of Vasudeva precipitates one's full surrender to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna as the highest goal. Such surrendered great souls are very rare. This verse is very nicely explained in the Third Chapter of Svetasvatara Upanisad: 'In this body there are power of speaking, of seeing, of hearing, of mental activities, etc. But these are not important if not related to the Supreme Lord. And because Vasudeva is all-pervading and everything is Vasudeva, the devotee surrenders in full knowledge.' "
Prabhupada: Vasudeva, surrenders. That's nice. All right, continue tomorrow. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19].
Devotees: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Distribute this prasadam. [break] Janayaty asu vairagyam jnanam ca yad ahaitukam [SB 1.2.7]. Vairagya and jnana, both thing will develop, Vasudeva. Hare Krsna. Take prasadam. Give him twice, he has worked very hard. (laughter) Double, you should give double. So Krsna will bless you. So push this scientific movement, go to every university, every college. How they are receiving now in the college circles?
Sadaputa: We gave a lecture a couple of days ago in Gainesville, and it was interesting. We actually gave a couple of TV interviews.
Prabhupada: How they received it?
Sadaputa: Well in the class, at first the professor said "That's completely fallacious." But he quieted down.
Prabhupada: Yes, they will say like that, "fallacious," but you have to make them down. (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: In the TV it was very favorable. The interview was just a professor at the University of Florida, and he's a professor of religion and history. We were speaking how life comes from life from a philosophical and scientific point of view, and he received very well and asked questions also.
Prabhupada: All right.
Devotees: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Pusta Krsna: In the very complex molecules, very slight probability, practically none, that this could happen by chance. There has to be some intelligence. It is very good argument for chemistry point of view.
Hari-sauri: Even anyone with a little common sense can understand that a very simple thing cannot produce a highly complicated thing. It's such an obvious point, but they have to have so many mathematical equations to accept it.
Prabhupada: Dictaphone, so many complicated, then it is working.
Pusta Krsna: And if one slight thing is off...
Prabhupada: Immediately, work stopped.
Hari-sauri: Yes, he made that point, in that he said that in the development of a motor, he said the whole thing has to be there, the whole idea has to be there to start with, to make the motor and to make it work, then it works.
Prabhupada: It is good.
Hari-sauri: It's very convincing, this presentation.
Pusta Krsna: I think they are mahatmas, no doubt, it's just that most chemists, most scientists are very, very skeptical. Going from ovals,(?) and all of a sudden they see the form of Visnu.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: That would be a great shock for the scientists.
Prabhupada: Whose brain is there.
Hari-sauri: Maybe they should explain that in a little more detail, that in that higher order, that he put in the slide, there was one box that said "higher-order laws," so then they have to explain that if there's laws then there's lawmaker, that means higher intelligence, so that means a higher personality.
Prabhupada: That is explained. Vasudeva is higher. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19].
Pusta Krsna: The difficulty is that they compare Vasudeva to themselves. They think that "I am so unintelligent and tiny, I can't even create anything, but how can one person create all of these things, down to the tiniest atom?" Such an extraordinary...
Prabhupada: Therefore He is God. He's not dog like you, barking only and doing nothing. (Prabhupada knocks on table or flooring) What is this stone?
Hari-sauri: Marble. It's a type of Italian marble, I think. They call it terrazzo. Something like that.
Pusta Krsna: It's very soft underneath.
Hari-sauri: They often put this on the facings of buildings, big buildings.
Pusta Krsna: Comes off on the fingers, very soft stone.
Hari-sauri: In Detroit temple, that stairway that goes up, this is the same marble, marble steps.
Prabhupada: Move this.
Pusta Krsna: Would you like this fan on at all, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. (end)
(break—next day)
Rupanuga: Svarupa Damodara Prabhu, You want to ask some questions?
Prabhupada: What is that? Astronomical chart?
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, it was just, Pradyumna was just telling me all this,... Yes, astronomical chart, about the moons, and...
Prabhupada: Astrological?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, astrological.
Prabhupada: He has become astrologer. (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, we thought, now, the biologists have a difficult time in defining species. It's not very clear, the way they do it. Now we want to bring up the concept that the, by the combination of the three modes of material nature produce all these different varieties of species. We say 8,400,000. And on that line...
Prabhupada: 8,400,000.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, now along that line, we want to make a nice chart on...
Prabhupada: Chart is already there, jalaja nava-laksani, nine hundred thousand species. Not species, forms.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Now we want to make a very clear distinction of, say, the mode of goodness and mode of passion and ignorance. And we want to give some very specific examples...
Prabhupada: The demigods, they are in goodness. And the human being in passion, and the animals in ignorance. That is general division.
Svarupa Damodara: The animals are ignorance. But now even we come to the, let's say,...
Prabhupada: Nitijugdeva.(?) Deva means demigods, they are in goodness. And human being in passion, and animals in ignorance. This is general division.
Svarupa Damodara: What about the plants and other smaller...?
Prabhupada: That is also animals, less, still more in dense darkness.
Svarupa Damodara: The other point along this line, we also wanted to, even in the same animal or bird kingdom...
Prabhupada: No, no. You can very minutely distinguish, this is the general division. Then there is minute division. That is numbering about 8,400,000.
Svarupa Damodara: Under that category, that minor divisions, now let's take the animals. Even in the animal kingdom, there are some animals which are influenced...
Prabhupada: From the animals down, it is all ignorance.
Svarupa Damodara: Animals down, all ignorance.
Rupanuga: What about like the cow, little goodness in it, mixed?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: And the lion, little passion?
Prabhupada: Yes. No, everywhere there is mixture. Otherwise, how it comes to 8,000,000? There is mixture. But this is the general division. Now you cannot make how much passion, how much goodness is there. That you can understand from the behavior. But this is general division. We can speak of general division. The minute division is made by nature. That nature's study, one who can study nature, then he can do that.
Rupanuga: That means to study the activity, psychology of the...
Prabhupada: So all the qualities are working, mixed up practically. But prominently like this. Here you cannot have any quality completely of that quality. Other qualities are there, but prominently that particular... Just like demigods. They also become sometimes passionate, sometimes ignorant. So in this material world it is very difficult to find out pure modes of nature in anything. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Sometimes some quality prominent, sometimes some quality is prominent. So the best thing is to become transcendental to all these qualities. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is devotional service. Suddha-sattva, completely pure goodness. That is wanted.
Svarupa Damodara: That is not the direction that we were thinking. We were thinking that we could give some specific examples. We understand that the modes of nature are mixed, but even then... Now let's take birds. A bird like swan likes to be very clean habit, likes to live in a nice environment like lotus and clean water, but on the other hand birds like eagle, very passionate, wants to...
Prabhupada: Crow.
Svarupa Damodara: Crow is rather very ignorant and wants to be very dirty, whereas...
Prabhupada: So what you will do by such study?
Svarupa Damodara: By this...
Prabhupada: Generalize the divisions, that's all. But none of the divisions are spiritual. Our aim is to come to the spiritual platform. Traigunya-visaya veda nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. Not that to increase goodness and keep a less quantity passion and ignorance. Be completely free from all the three qualities, that is required.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that is our philosophy, but...
Prabhupada: So some other living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa gunan... Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of all these qualities. That is wanted.
Svarupa Damodara: That is on a human platform, but we wanted to appeal purely on a scientific level to the scientists. Now in order to bring these concepts that these three modes of nature, because of mixing of these three modes of nature it produces different species, varieties of species... Now this is completely unknown to them. They have no idea about these modes. So somehow we thought if we bring some specific examples like this, that looking the products of nature as a source, not worrying about transcendental or not, (microphone rattling)
Prabhupada: What is the use of such things? If you particularly study that this living entity is now in this mode, say goodness fifty percent and passion ten percent, in this way, but it can change at any moment. You cannot fix it up.
Svarupa Damodara: That is good, because if we argue this we can always defeat this concept of evolution. Our main point is to defeat the concept of evolution.
Prabhupada: No, no, evolution is already there.
Svarupa Damodara: Evolution means material evolution, from chemicals.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not evolution. The species are already there, 8,400,000. Now the living entity is changing the position. The status is already there.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but they don't understand that.
Prabhupada: They don't understand. That is their foolishness.
Svarupa Damodara: So that's why we want to bring up this point that...
Prabhupada: You can bring up. This is the position. Just like there are apartments are already there. Sometimes I am coming here, sometimes going there, but this is the position. I'm not fixed up. Similarly, living entity, as soon as he changes his mind, the apartment is ready. Here is your position. Again he changes, "Here, here is your position." They are already there. Not that for him especially being created. The species are already there. As soon as he fixes himself up particular species, he's transferred, daiva-netrena karmana. He gets a similar body, "Come on, here, take this body." Yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. These are explained. So he's transmigrating, he's not fixed up. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. He gets, by his desire, he gets a particular body. Then after some time he changes to another body.
Svarupa Damodara: That we understand, only your Divine Grace's disciples, but not everyone.
Prabhupada: Then you try to make understand others that this is the position.
Rupanuga: One thing is, the modern biologists, they have no...
Prabhupada: You cannot, you cannot... What is your question?
Svarupa Damodara: The question is, now we want to argue that how is it possible, now you are claiming that life is coming from molecules? If you claim like that, then how is it possible that in the same species, let's say in the birds, that these qualities are spreading? Some birds we see behave like a little influenced by the modes of goodness, though it is mixed. Like swan, we are taking that example. But some are like eagle, very passionate, wants to kill small birds as their food, and on the other hand, birds like crows, they like just to be completely ignorant, or they like to survive in a dirty environment. Why? Is this possible just from the concept of molecular evolution? It's completely, it's failing. They have no explanation along those terms. So we thought to bring up these points, it will be very clear that this evolution is completely wrong. So we want to use that...
Prabhupada: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing. Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to another. Asatims caturam caiva laksams jiva jatisu.(?) Jati means the form of the body. So the form of the body is already there, and the living entity is being transferred from one body to another. This is called transmigration. We have come here, not that that room developed. This room is here, that room is there, but I am transferring. Because they have no idea of soul, they are thinking that this nice room, now transform into this room or this room, transform... This is foolishness. A civil man transferred into jail—not that his civil house becomes jail. They are thinking wrongly like that, Darwin's theory. Body becoming changed. No. The different types of bodies are already there. The living entity is being transferred from one body to another. Just try to explain. So evolution you take that this apartment is better than that apartment, that apartment better than, and a living entity's going from one after another. So this is evolution. That you are now getting salary, one thousand dollar, now you get fifteen hundred dollars. So according to your qualification, you are getting.
Svarupa Damodara: When we talk about evolution, in our understanding, evolution is evolution of consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. We say karma. Evolution of karma. So karma is also based on consciousness. If you like to do a particular type of work, that can be changed, consciousness.
Rupanuga: We can give them some examples. There's no harm, is there? To give them some example of different kinds of work and activity?
Prabhupada: Just like eating. You are eating meat, you can give it up. If you think it is not good, you can give it up. What is the wrong there?
Svarupa Damodara: So, Srila Prabhupada, you think giving examples, or like making a division of these animals under category of these three modes is not proper? After all, all the modes are mixed. Now can we say that a cow is, although there are other modes, but predominantly the mode of goodness?
Prabhupada: Predominantly ignorance. Cow, just like cows, or, yes...
Svarupa Damodara: Cows, then tigers, lions we can give predominantly passion. Now coming to either camels or pigs we can call ignorance.
Prabhupada: So many, very subtle, subtle mixture. That subtleness of mixture is impossible for you to analyze.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that's true. So we shouldn't do this?
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said daiva-netrena, superior administration. You cannot do it.
Rupanuga: We have to simply teach them that evolution really means some...
Prabhupada: It's taking place in this way, that's all. That much you can say. You cannot actually analyze a particular body, what percentage of this or... That's impossible.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually, we are not analyzing, but we're just giving this by seeing from practical example.
Prabhupada: That is already there, one life after another. That is already there by superior arrangement. Very fine arrangement, exactly to the percentage of different qualities, the body is already there. Simply the soul has to be put into that body by superior arrangement. Say, first-class passenger, what does he require? The apartment is already made by expert, what is needed for a first-class passenger?
Svarupa Damodara: He needs some more money. He must be rich to get a first-class apartment.
Prabhupada: Yes, but so far arrangement, just like Western hotels, everything is so complete. They know what a first-class man wants. So expert. They have already made. You don't require to say anything, that "I want..." So complete. But the steps are already mentioned. Aquatics, then plants, vegetation, then insects, reptiles, then birds, then beasts. These are the gradual...
Svarupa Damodara: So we'd like actually to bring out very clearly why the swan is different from a crow. What is it. What makes it different. Why a swan behaves this way and a crow behaves this way.
Prabhupada: According to combination of these modes.
Svarupa Damodara: That's why we want to bring out, that modes of nature, that can explain so many things so nicely, the difference, but science has no background on that.
Prabhupada: That means you have to analyze different bodies. But that is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which apartment is better than the other apartment, there is description. Just like a dog's body is so made that two furlongs away some newcomer is coming, immediately he will bark, he can immediately understand, perceive. He can smell that "Somebody is coming who is not known to me." Is it not? So he has got that special quality. Even in animals we will find. A fish in the water, two miles away there is some enemy, they can understand by touch.
Svarupa Damodara: Science calls those chemical senses.
Prabhupada: These are described in the Bhagavata, the different perception of different senses, how one is prominent in one animal body. That is described.
Rupanuga: That is coming? That is not yet printed? I don't remember that description.
Prabhupada: No, I think that in the Third Canto. In Third Canto there is. You can consult Third Canto. One sense is prominent.
Rupanuga: Like you have the example the tongue for the fish, an elephant, his genital, and you gave some other, these are there in the Bhagavatam. The deer, the ear.
Svarupa Damodara: That's due to the combination of the modes, as a result of the mixing of the three modes in different percentage. So we can even just mention like that in this,
Prabhupada: That you can take from the authoritative statement you find.
Svarupa Damodara: So shall we make an attempt to give these examples like this, or just mention it? What's better? What do you think?
Rupanuga: Well, one thing, the biologists haven't even really counted up many so-called species themselves. So why should we get into such..., worry about the details? They don't have the detail themselves.
Svarupa Damodara: No, not details, but we wanted to show that there is such thing as the three modes of nature, they are working, not just by chemical combination these things are produced. We want to say that the three modes are there. Because of the working of the...
Prabhupada: No, the three modes induces chemical composition. Then RN, DNA (laughs)...
Svarupa Damodara: But this is very unique in science itself. It's a very novel concept just from scientific level.
Devotee: The scientists have a desire to explain things. They like to see that you can explain so many different things. Perhaps it doesn't have any real utility to explain,
Prabhupada: So, as far as possible, you can give explanation from Bhagavatam. Otherwise, how you can...
Devotee: So by giving these examples then they might think this has very good explanatory power, and they will therefore accept it, they will (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So the general division in the higher planetary system is the devatas, beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes of goodness prominent. Less, below that, bhur bhuvah, they are passionate, and below that, they are ignorant.
Devotee: Do the number of demigods have something to do with the number of species, like there are thirty-three million demigods?
Prabhupada: There are thirty-three million. Thirty crores. There are also divisions, Gandharvas, Apsaras.
Svarupa Damodara: Do they belong to these species? They are also included in these eight million four hundred? These Gandharvas?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So they are counted, what, as human beings?
Prabhupada: Some of them are devatas, some of them are human being.
Rupanuga: When we say four hundred thousand species of human beings, that doesn't include all the demigods then.
Prabhupada: The demigods are like human beings.
Svarupa Damodara: Prabhupada told me that when you become a devotee, you are a demigod. (laughs)
Prabhupada: The whole evolutionary process means to bring the living entity to the platform of goodness and then transcend that platform also, come to pure goodness. That is devotion.
Devotee: Prabhupada? You explained that all those forms are already existing. What is the meaning of all those forms if there is no one inhabiting them? Why is it that they all exist without...
Prabhupada: No, no, how you can say nobody is inhabiting?
Devotee: You said that they are there, you just go to the different forms. So that means they are existing without anyone living there?
Prabhupada: No, form, a class of form. It can be immediately, that A class, B class, C class, D class. So if you are fit for D class, immediately form for you, a D class body is there, made.
Svarupa Damodara: It is also existing in the sense that in the unmanifested form, before it is manifested, the form is there.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is species. Form is there already. They are existing. So you require to get another form, but the same class. First-class compartment is there. If it is, one bogey is already, first-class filled up, then railroad company brings another bogey and gives place to the passengers. That's all, there is no difficulty. What is the difficulty? Put him into this particular mother's womb and he gets a form, that's all. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Don't compare Krsna's power with your power. He can do anything, anyone, immediately.
Svarupa Damodara: So called Acintya. (pause) What is the biological concept of species?
Sadaputa: All they can do is base it on the similarity of what the animals look like. They have trouble counting species. Srila Prabhupada? Are there different meanings, this day of Brahma? Are there different creations and annihilations of species? Different Manus, they are sometimes flooding the whole earth.
Prabhupada: There are different, when Brahma goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation, and when he dies there is one kind. And during Brahma's days there are other devastations, manvantara.
Sadaputa: After a devastation, do the...
Prabhupada: Different classes of devastation. There are many devastations during Brahma's day, and there is another devastation during Brahma's sleep, and another devastation when Brahma dies.
Svarupa Damodara: And during different Manus also.
Prabhupada: That is day. Such devastation takes place during Brahma's day. Fourteen Manus.
Svarupa Damodara: Do we know that in detail, Srila Prabhupada? What type of species are extinct? Not all the species extinct. As it is during Brahma's day, that partial annihilation, devastation, now some species are extinct?
Prabhupada: No species extinct. What you are reading? This is garbage.(?)
Svarupa Damodara: The physical forms.
Prabhupada: No, nothing is extinct. Everything is going on.
Svarupa Damodara: At that point, they are going to come up with the point that "How about dinosaurs?" They are going to ask like that.
Prabhupada: That is imagination, where is dinosaur finding.
Svarupa Damodara: They say they have all the bones.
Prabhupada: No, they are describing maybe another animal. That is existing. That is Timingila, they can swallow up big, big whale fishes. That big, bones, they are living still. Nothing is extinct. They are already there.
Rupanuga: Did these dinosaurs exist, or is it just their imagination?
Prabhupada: The big animal exists. I call it dinosaur or finosaur, that is your choice. Big animals existing. Timingila, I said the name, Timingila, still exist.
Rupanuga: Still exist.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are always existing. Water elephants. There are elephants in water. Everything.
Rupanuga: So there is no such thing as extinction.
Prabhupada: No extinction, there is no question of extinction.
Rupanuga: If these animals were on this planet some millions of years ago, they are still here, is that correct?
Prabhupada: Yes. What do you know what are there within the water? You can take information from the sastras. It is not possible for you to see and go into the water, how big, big animals are there.
Hari-sauri: But it's possible that an animal may disappear from one planet, but still be on another planet, though, like that.
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: Because they claim that even within recorded history...
Prabhupada: They claim everything. That is... There is no question.
Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct) fossil, they are called fossil record.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. You can get a dead animal's body, but what is that?
Svarupa Damodara: They claim that many species are extinct.
Prabhupada: How they are extinct?
Hari-sauri: Well, like, they say that within modern history,
Prabhupada: First thing is they are all imperfect speculators. So what is the value of their sport? We don't take any value of it.
Rupanuga: They don't know where these animals are, that's all.
Prabhupada: They, simply like child, they are speculating. If he's imperfect, then what is the value of his speculation? There is no value.
Svarupa Damodara: But then what happens at the time of partial devastation? At the end of Manu, the partial devastation, what happens to the species?
Prabhupada: Happens means these different ways become destroyed, but again, during creation, they come in.
Hari-sauri: The same species.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Is it also—I don't know if this is speculation or not—but is it, Srila Prabhupada, is it also not possible, say, at the time of creation, now those material bodies are going to be created, also possible not to manifest all of them but some are not still manifested?
Prabhupada: Yes, they are created. What is the wrong there?
Svarupa Damodara: They are created, but not all of them. Not all the bodies...
Prabhupada: Why? Why not? If some of them can be created, why not all of them? If some of them can be created, all of them can be created. Why do you say some of them can be created, not all of them?
Svarupa Damodara: No, all of them can be created, but according to the karma-phala, or action of the individual, so there may be some time to...
Prabhupada: Yes. The last devastation he died, but his karma-phala remained. So he has to appear in that form, begin his work.
Svarupa Damodara: So in principle, at the time of creation, all forms must be created.
Prabhupada: According to...
Rupanuga: Because there is always someone to occupy some form.
Prabhupada: Someone is ready already.
Rupanuga: Waiting.
Prabhupada: It is called suptotthita-nyaya. Suptotthito-nyaya. Just like you are sleeping, you forget everything. And as soon as you get up, immediately remember, "I have to do this." Immediately your duty is present. Immediately you understand "I have to go here, I have to do, I have to purchase..." But while sleeping, he forgot everything. It is like that. When devastation, everything is finished. Again creation, this suptotthita-nyaya, he's coming in this body, he's coming this body, so many. Unless he has got the particular body, how he can work? Unfinished.
Svarupa Damodara: (to devotees): What is that examples of that plants, trees appearance?
Sadaputa: I was thinking like in Bhagavatam, it says Caksusa-manvantara, Daksa recreated all the necessary living beings. So I was thinking it must have been that they were destroyed in a devastation and that he recreated them.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Sadaputa: We were trying to see how we could explain these fossils that geologists speak of, and it seems like one way of looking at them.
Prabhupada: But their calculating mind, in whatever you explain you have to give reference to the sastra, and they will say it is, what is called? Myth, mythology. They'll refuse immediately that thing. But you have no other source to explain. And they will take it immediately, "It is all mythology."
Rupanuga: (to Sadaputa:) What about that chart you were working on comparing the ages, the Vedic ages and the scientists ages? Do you have that? Can we talk about that now? We should ask Srila Prabhupada if there's any real parallel there. One thing we were thinking, the way they talk about time in past ages, Sadaputa put the Vedic ages side by side with their idea and saw some comparison there, it looks like there may be some...
Prabhupada: That is the... They will take our idea as mythology, and we shall take their idea as most imperfect.
Svarupa Damodara: No, we can argue on scientific...
Prabhupada: This is the position. Now you try to argue, but they will take everything we propose as mythology, and we will take, "Because you are rascal, whatever you say, it is all rascaldom," that's all. This is the position. "You are imperfect, rascals. So whatever you say it is all rascaldom." That is our position. And as soon as we say from sastra, they will say it is all mythology. Then how you'll meet? This is the difference.
Svarupa Damodara: Now we can argue that mythology is not so serious. I think we can argue on very sound logic, pointing out that their measurement of the ages are also based not on very scientific background, but there are many mistakes, and in fact there are several reports that... (end)

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