Evening Conversation

August 8, 1976, Tehran
(beginning of tape noisy with talking in background)
Atreya Rsi: Now if there are planets, Srila Prabhupada, like the sun planet, where
Prabhupada: We get information from the sastra, every planet is full of life.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, that there is life in other, some planets.
Prabhupada: Janah-kirna, this very word is used janah-kirna. Congested with life. And we have got description, this loka, this loka, this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka, or that... Everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version, they're simply rogues, then the whole sastra becomes false.
Atreya Rsi: The point in the sastra is that every...
Prabhupada: And they will advertise that these descriptions in the sastras, they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same... It will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to allow them to. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this-rocks." So we see variety. Is the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it?
Jnanagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities, they are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life.
Prabhupada: Microbes?
Jnanagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic...
Prabhupada: Why they can see only microbes? Not a fully grown up human being.
Jnanagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes and then microbes give off evacuation...
Prabhupada: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water?
Atreya Rsi: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is the use of such photograph?
Jnanagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals.
Prabhupada: What class chemical? (indistinct)
Jnanagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding(?) the earth. They take the ground from Mars.
Prabhupada: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first... (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being.
Harikesa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed out place.
Jnanagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, U.S. Information Service and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. So they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these, they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious.
Prabhupada: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting.
Atreya Rsi: So Srila Prabhupada, if there are some visitors, can they come up?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Will we have readings or would you like to talk with them?
Prabhupada: Let them come, we shall see. My point is why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks? They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed.
Jnanagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition.
Prabhupada: And all the higher lifes are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lifes, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception.
Jnanagamya: Yes, this is the highest here, there cannot be any higher. They will not accept.
Prabhupada: Just see how much biased they are.
Jnanagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy, they will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad-gita because it is from another country. They do not like that.
Prabhupada: Ah, nobody can see their attitude.
Jnanagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad-gita we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said.
Prabhupada: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that, preach in America vigorously. If America accepts, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhagavatam. What is that sound coming? There is goat?
Parivrajakacarya: I think a lamb, sheep.
Prabhupada: Lamb.
Parivrajakacarya: Yes.
Prabhupada: They keep lambs for?
Parivrajakacarya: For sacrificing.
Prabhupada: They sacrifice at home?
Parivrajakacarya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home with his head pointing toward Mecca.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Parivrajakacarya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca, and you let the blood of the animal flow towards Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose.
Prabhupada: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good.
Jnanagamya: But they have slaughterhouse.
Parivrajakacarya: But the Koran restricts meat-eating.
Prabhupada: It is restriction.
Parivrajakacarya: Yes. So this is what we explain; we say if it is good, then why is it restricted?
Prabhupada: That is a good explanation. What do they say?
Parivrajakacarya: They say, well, Mohammed did it.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda?
Jnanagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes.
Prabhupada: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this (indistinct). That janma-acarana, 12th canto, 3rd chapter. (moving occurs) I shall like to sit down. (indistinct) Now in the beginning...
Pradyumna: The beginning of the third chapter?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pradyumna: The third chapter begins, drstvatmani jaye vyagran. That's third chapter.
Prabhupada: Second chapter.
Pradyumna: Second chapter, tatas canu-dinam dharmah.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Pradyumna: It says carma? Cara?
Prabhupada: Dharmah cara.
Prabhupada: Now you begin that.
Prabhupada: Vittam eva, that's it. Vittam eva?
Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nrnam janmacara-gunodayah
Prabhupada: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of brahmana, ksatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi?
Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nrnam janmacara-gunodayah.
Prabhupada: Ah. Janmacara-gunodayah. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to, George at least, coming to Krsna consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, nor they have got any spiritual assets, born brahmana family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money (laughs). So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after, so much after money. Vittam eva, hmm? Read that?
vittam eva kalau nrnam
karanam balam eva hi
Prabhupada: Dharma-nyaya. In India we have seen that you bribe the brahmanas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgement in your... That is proven. One big judge... Not now, at least fifty years ago or more than that. His business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it, so in one case he was just arranging for this and the chief justice called him, that "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative, he immediately resigned, and on some plea like, "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that why you are doing this? He said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his... He was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice... And nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Krsna. So we shall be sitting inside or here?
Atreya Rsi: Wherever you like, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: I can like anywhere.
Atreya Rsi: This is good, this is good.
Prabhupada: But these gentlemen? Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. Take, give them. Yes. You can bring the room light also. So there is introduction?
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter, he has been coming here on Fridays.
Prabhupada: He's American?
Peter: English.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasadam and we talk to him sometimes.
Jnanagamya: He offers puja to Lord Buddha, he's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar.
Prabhupada: The other boy?
Atreya Rsi: Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist and he is working here. I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time and he's been chanting.
Prabhupada: He's trying to be (indistinct).
Atreya Rsi: Yes.
Prabhupada: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture. You told me?
Atreya Rsi: Yes.
Prabhupada: So first of all, what is spiritual culture?
Atreya Rsi: Sufism...
Prabhupada: No, not... Just like gold. I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say Iranian gold or Indian gold. That is not. Similarly, when you say Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one. And material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking what do you mean by spiritual culture? That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or... What is your idea of spiritual culture?
Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but...
Prabhupada: No, same. But you must explain at least. I want to know how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question.
Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means... There are two things within our experience. Matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, now the body is useless, throw it away. Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Antavanta ime deha. Bring Bhagavad-gita. Antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah saririnah. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter.
antavanta ime deha
nityasyoktah saririnah
anasino 'prameyasya
tasmad yudhyasva bharata
[Bg. 2.18]
"Translation: Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasureable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata."
Prabhupada: Only the material body is subject to destruction.
Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction."
Prabhupada: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body. Then coming out of the mother's womb, the same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what the spiritual necessity is. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of Iranian spiritual culture or Indian spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. As bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not... Just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable everywhere. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It is everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture and what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand? (pause) Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress, everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point?
Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different.
Prabhupada: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach.
Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach...
Prabhupada: No, rituals, this will come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Therefore you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter, what is the goal past that?
Prabhupada: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like, you can go immediately, but this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move. Because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities, eating, sleeping and sex and defense, then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human beings. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand. This is spiritual side, this is material side. The spiritual side is important. Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side. They can take care of the material side.
Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence.
Prabhupada: Soul is dependent?
Atreya Rsi: Upon the body for existence.
Prabhupada: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mudha. Mudha is an ass. Mudha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that grass can be had anywhere, why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load. Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is (indistinct). Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mudha. We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before?
Atreya Rsi: Is your question satisfied?
Peter: Yes. (pause)
Prabhupada: It is something like gum? (?)
Atreya Rsi: Yes.
Prabhupada: Does it require change? No.
Atreya Rsi: Change? Yes.
Prabhupada: No, I have got it filled in my (indistinct).
Atreya Rsi: No, it's finished. After a while. Just twenty minutes.
Prabhupada: Oh. Then I shall (indistinct). Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Find out this.
"One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains my eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupada: Somebody else?
Atreya Rsi: There are some guests coming. (background movement)
Prabhupada: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered. If they have got any doubt, we can...
Atreya Rsi: Through association they will ask more questions.
Prabhupada: What is that verse?
Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of my appearance and activities does not upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains my eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupada: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is the process. This is Krsna consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Bring my beads. (long pause) My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh?
Peter: Suffering.
Prabhupada: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question.
Peter: Attachment.
Prabhupada: Attachment maybe, that is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness, attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness, but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example, if a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment. That is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which... That is explained there, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get a material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original spiritual body, why should we not take it. That is intelligence. That is a very simple thing. Read it again.
Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupada: Purport?
Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from his transcendental abode, is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord, is only partial and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-samhita it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas:
eko devo nitya-lilanurakto
bhakta-vyapi hrdy antar-atma
'The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gita personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi, is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Krsna to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:
tam eva viditvati mrtyum eti
nanyah pantha vidyate 'yanaya
One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative because anyone who does not understand Lord Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation, simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad-gita according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Krsna consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection."
Prabhupada: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it? (long pause) So your friend's questions and answers are not coming?
Atreya Rsi: They just came to listen, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: No, they must be satisfied. (long pause)
Atreya Rsi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here.
Prabhupada: Oh, jaya.
Atreya Rsi: He's a journalist.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, I remember. He has got any questions?
Atreya Rsi: Terry, do you have any questions?
Terry: I have a question about this particular age. The world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists, the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self-aggrandizement, and the other which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic worldChina, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that, the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this and how should one come to terms with this prevailing, this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension?
Prabhupada: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.
Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying: the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists, to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform. It is threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificantto get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go in to the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature: the severe cold, scorching heat, how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Adhyatmic, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, bit still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. (If) you have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved. On every surface (?). They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful.
Atreya Rsi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in...
Prabhupada: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110 degree temperature and sometimes you have got seventy degree temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110 degree or seventy degree or thirty degree, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110 degree is too much, let it be one hundred degree... That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100 degree, it would have been very nice, but that's not the fact. Either 110 degree or 100 degree, it is disturbance. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degreesone position, one man's food, another man's poison. The same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible (indistinct). It is the nature of material world, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Find out this verse. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorant.
"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."
Prabhupada: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialists, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries, but do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know. They are trying to imitate somebody else. He is already on the standard, so-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugar cane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished. So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. You go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets, we predicted that this moon-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the sastra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand are so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing?
Peter: Is there any point in your practice do you consider yourself free from taking lower re-births? [break]
Prabhupada: ...but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop and then you'll be happy. [break] You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some food."
Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was, I think you read about the yogis who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question, what was the cause for this?
Prabhupada: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetiteyou are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say, "No, no, no, no more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say, "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. So other method, jnana, yoga, they are insufficient. And bhakti-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gita the Lord says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Find out this verse. He never recommends jnana, yoga, karma. Bhakti. So if you take the path of bhakti, then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect.
"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: That's it. Now unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction.
Atreya Rsi: So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body.
Prabhupada: No, that is already explainedtyaktva deham. Giving up this body, one can enter in the spiritual world. Visate tad-anantaramafter death. By bhakti, when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktva deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter, although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktva deham, mam eti. Visate tad-anantaram. Tad-anantaram after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have (to) come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that, I'm simply servant of... That is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary... What is this Iranian, American, Indian? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktva deham. Tatha dehantaram. So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am a sparrow. Jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. So one has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti.
So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod. Another designation. Just like the same, the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby, and another designation, boy, another designation young man, another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designations. So freedom means freedom from all these designations. I am spirit, aham brahmasmi. I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. So our Krsna consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. If I think that he is under designation... But our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he becomes free from designation. And this so-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platformI am American, I am Indian, I am Iranian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian, I am Buddhistthen we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya. That designationless status is called brahma-bhutah. And the opposite of brahma-bhutah is jiva-bhutah. Jiva-bhutah, there are so many jivas, living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu, I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation, or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhutah. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. Then bhakti. When one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti. The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, thank you very much. [break]
Pradyumna: ...activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks...
Prabhupada: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example. If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless.
Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti?
Prabhupada: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire.
Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some...
Prabhupada: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Krsna says, in the beginning api cet su-duracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavyah: [Bg. 9.30] even he's not completely a devotee, still, sadhur eva sa mantavyah. You must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations always on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sadhu. If he sticks to the principles, ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati, very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace-sasvac-chanti-kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. These things are there. So one has to take the line of Krsna consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no.... That is called utsahan dhairyat, dhairyat, patience. Niscayad; "I have taken to Krsna consciousness exactly as Krsna wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niscayad. There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Krsna under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niscayad. But if I am deviating, that is my (indistinct). But if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful.
Jnanagamya: Srila Prabhupada, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridasa Thakura when he says, "Put away your excess humility."
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Jnanagamya: Haridasa Thakura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance?
Prabhupada: Assurance is there. Krsna says kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhakta... [Bg. 9.31]. If you remain a pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Krsna, why does He come, what are His activities. Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Simply.... This is cultivation, to understand Krsna. Krsna consciousness cultivation. And Krsna assures: tyaktva deham, you have to give up this body, but for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tatha dehantara praptir, another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying, nobody is dying, but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotee's changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body then you become spiritually situated. Sac-cid-ananda vigraha [Bs. 5.1], simply ananda, eternally blissful. Very easy. So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate, what is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given so easy, harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Simply chant Hare Krsna and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nasty eva: the Kali-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do simply chant Hare Krsna. Where is the difficulty? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Krsna, then everything will go on. This is Krsna consciousness. Where is the difficulty? Unless we make it difficult. Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian, I am American, I am this, I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb. And other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he is supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. Feel like Indian and drive away the English. And one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad-gita, he never said "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kanda, jnana-kanda sakale visera bandha. This is karma-kanda. Designation movements. And higher than this karma-kanda, the mental speculators, jnana-kanda. So Narottama dasa Thakura (says) both of them visera bandha. Pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadarya bhaksana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya. These are simple words but, it contains very, very grave meaning. This is Vaisnava acarya. Where is Atreya Rsi?
Devotee: Atreya Rsi? I'll get him.
Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, then...
Prabhupada: Everything is going on, karma-kanda. Whole world acting fruitive activities. "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kanda.
Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is... Die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya. But spiritual death is there. So your friends are satisfied or not?
Atreya Rsi: Yes. Srila Prabhupada. They said they were. I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations.
Prabhupada: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process.
Atreya Rsi: It is in the process.
Prabhupada: Yes. By shaving, there are so many shaven headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, that is cheating. (pause) You get your puffed rice? No. Get?
Atreya Rsi: Yes. Let me ask. We may have little bit.
Prabhupada: No, here they prepare puffed rice?
Atreya Rsi: No, from India or from America. We don't...
Prabhupada: You get imported.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. Would you like me to ask?
Prabhupada: Yes. You bring.
Hari-sauri: We brought some flat rice, ksira.
Prabhupada: No, don't, I shall not take it.
Jnanagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store.
Atreya Rsi: No, it is not here, we got it.
Prabhupada: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take. Atreya Rsi: No trouble.
Jnanagamya: I have some friends, in American commissary, friends like that, they could possibly get it. I'll call them.
Atreya Rsi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Puffed rice? No.
Atreya Rsi: What would you like, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No, doesn't matter.
Nava-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India.
Prabhupada: Puffed rice?
Prabhupada: Bring it, let me see. I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside.
Hari-sauri: Sleep inside?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Pradyumna: It's coming to purnima.
Prabhupada: Yes. Moon is the cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I'm not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it.
Atreya Rsi: Because Krsna is missing. They don't accept Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Krsna is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. And that also they have not. Even they have not common sense.
Pradyumna: Children are always asking, it is a folk thing that children ask what is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of.
Prabhupada: They ask?
Pradyumna: Generally, when they are young, what is the moon, what is the moon made of. So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter)
Prabhupada: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature, there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon-faced, candra-mukhi. There are so many. The best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Mayapura-candra. Mayapura-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Mayapura? You have got rock candy?
Atreya Rsi: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Give me little.
Jnanagamya: Prabhupada, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Krsnaloka from your temples.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore I've given you Easy Journey to Other Planets. It is from India?
Nava-yauvana: It is from India.
Prabhupada: Fresh.
Atreya Rsi: Would you like it fried a little?
Prabhupada: Little make it hot.
Atreya Rsi: Hot, We can little heat it.
Prabhupada: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt.
Atreya Rsi: We mix it or you mix it.
Prabhupada: I can mix.
Atreya Rsi: We'll bring it separately.
Prabhupada: But this is good.
Atreya Rsi: And also we can bring some fruit?
Prabhupada: No. More salt, pepper. So this is nice.
Hari-sauri: Shall I put some on this lid?
Prabhupada: Some Indian gentleman has given?
Atreya Rsi: This is Mrs. Patel.
Prabhupada: She has prepared or....?
Atreya Rsi: No, from India.
Prabhupada: Persian rice is famous.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, it is prepared in a different way.
Prabhupada: Persian rice?
Atreya Rsi: Yes, we prepare it also differently. We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it.
Prabhupada: So first of all you boil?
Atreya Rsi: And take the water out.
Prabhupada: Paddy?
Atreya Rsi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam.
Prabhupada: Rice?
Atreya Rsi: And then steam. And it makes very long, individual...
Prabhupada: And then you dry?
Atreya Rsi: No, no. We eat it like that.
Prabhupada: For two, three days?
Pradyumna: They eat it immediately after cooking.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made, did she prepare it that way last night? This afternoon?
Atreya Rsi: No. This rice isn't even Persian, it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. [break]
Prabhupada: They make very nice puffed rice in Melbourne.
Atreya Rsi: How do they make it, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that dekhi, what is called? That rice...
Pradyumna: Thresher?
Prabhupada: Dekhi, husking, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand you put the rice and immediately puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff-puff. Like that.
Atreya Rsi: In America they probably have a short-cut process.
Prabhupada: Maybe, what method?
Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end)

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