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Conversation with Seven Ministers
of Andhra Pradesh

August 22, 1976, Hyderabad
(Ministers for Endowments, Social Services, Revenue, Public Works Dept., Minor Irrigation, Rehabilitation and Fisheries.)
(long speech in Hindi by minister)
Prabhupada: Our subject matter of Krsna consciousness movement is that systematize... The progress of human society should be systematized according to sastra. Just like your government, it is conducted under certain rules and regulations. You have to refer to the government regulative principles, and expert government officers, they are selected. Formally it was ICS, now it is IAS. That means reference to the authorities. Similarly, there are authorities which are called sastra. Sas-dhatu means to rule. From Sas-dhatu, sastra and sastra. Sastra means weapon. If you do not act according to the sastra then there is sastra. Sastra means weapon, government. If you violate the rules of the government then there is police department, there is military department which will force you to accept the government regulation. And from the same sas-dhatu is sisya, one who voluntarily accepts the discipline.
The aim of human life is param gatim. Param gatim means the supreme perfection. Gatim means progress, and param means the supreme. Our life is progressive. By evolution we have come to this human form of life through many forms of life.
Like that. In the beginning there was water, so the living entities were aquatics. Then, as the land came out, sthavara, then plants, creepers, trees. So we have to pass through nine lakhs species of life in the water. Then trees, plants, two millions, twenty lakhs. In this way there are 8,400,000 species of life, and when you come to the human form of life, bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], we get this form of life. Now we have to select param gatim or adho gatim. We are given the chance of human form of life for further advancement. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita:
So if you worship the demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuna-yanti deva-vrata devanthen you can go to the higher planetary system. They are trying to go to the moon planet. In that way it is not possible. You have to be qualified to go there. Not by machine, by force you can go there. That is not possible. Yanti deva-vrata devan. So... And also you can go, mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. You can go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have to make choice in this human form of life. Actually, the aim should be to go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. Abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. Otherwise, within this material world, even if you go to the higher planetary system, then punar avartinah, you have to come back again. Now the human form of life should be properly utilized. If we think that this life is everything, that is wrong conception of life. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. You have to change this body. Transmigration of the soul. So by transmigration of the soul we have got this human form of life. If we properly utilize it, then we can make further progress. And if we do not, if we keep ourself as animals, then we'll degrade. Adho gacchanti tamasah.
So nature's law is there, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature. So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the sastra. The brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. To maintain the body, just like we require the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs, similarly, we must maintain the brain of the society, the brahmana; and the arms of the society, ksatriyas; and the belly of the society, the vaisyas; and the legs of the society, the sudra. Everything is required. Not that simply brain is required and leg is not required. No, everything is required under proper guidance for the total benefit of the society. So direction is there. That is sastra. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya... If we do not care for the sastra, whimsically manufacture our own ways of life, na siddhim sa avapnoti, it will never be successful. Na sukham. And there will be no happiness. Na param gatim. Therefore the whole process is yajnarthat karmana. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Yajna means the Supreme Lord, Visnu. Yajna means yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih. After performing yajna, if we enjoy life, then there is no sinful reaction. Otherwise, bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat [Bg. 3.13]. So all directions are there in the sastra, and the essence of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gita. So at the present moment, our, this Krsna consciousness movement is that it doesn't matter what kind of state it is, but it should follow the principle of yajna. Yajnarthe karmana. Otherwise, we shall be responsible. Just like, for example, a military man, what is his business? His business is killing. So by the government order he is killing, and the more number of enemies he kills, he gets medal, reward. But the same man, if he kills one man, he'll be hangedfor his own sense gratification. He cannot argue that "In the military camp I have killed so many men and I was rewarded, and now I have killed one man and I am going to be hanged. Why?" The question may be raised. No foolish man will raise the question. That means that killing is under the superior order, and this killing is for your sense gratification. So if you do anything for our sense gratification then it will be stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. He is punishable. But if we execute the supreme order, then you are rewarded. The same action. We are requesting therefore everywhere, not only in India, all over the world, that act according to the order of the supreme, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And gradually they are accepting the principle. So why not in India? In India, the Bhagavad-gita was spoken in India. Still, in India there are many devotees, many Krsna conscious persons. Especially in this province. You are very great devotees of Balaji. Balaji is Krsna, Bala Krsna. So I wish that the government may be conducted under the guide of Balaji, Lord Krsna. That is my request. And the codes and the orders and the rules and regulations, they're all stated in the Bhagavad-gita. So if we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita and accept... We accept, consciously or unconsciously. That is our Indian culture, Vedic culture. Still, hundreds and thousands of people go to see Balaji, and they contribute their hard-earned money for worshiping the Lord. This is the principle. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. I have seen in Balaji temple, mostly cultivators, they come, stand whole day there just to offer something, yajnarthe, for the satisfaction of the Lord. It's a great culture. Yajnarthe karmano 'nyatra. So karma, ordinary fruitive activities should be carried on for yajnarthe, for the satisfaction of Balaji, or Krsna. Not otherwise. The same, what is gathered as contribution, it should be utilized for yajna. Because the money is given for yajna, not for other purposes. That is a fact. Of course, the money is there. The innocent villagers, they have given the money in good faith that Krsna or Balaji will accept it and their hard labor will be successful. Yajnarthe karmana. Now that money should be properly utilized for yajnarthe. Actually, everything belongs to God, Balaji. Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. We are claiming unnecessarily, "This is mine." That is called maya. Nothing belongs to us. Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. But we have claimed the Lord's property as our own. That is misgiving. Therefore yajna is recommended. Return to the Supreme voluntarily. That is called yajna.
purusena parah puman
visnur aradhyate pantha
nanyat tat-tosa-karanam
[Cc. Madhya 8.58]
The varnasrama-dharma, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajna. Varnasramacara-vata. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization. Varnasrama. How to return back. Just like Bali Maharaja. Bali Maharaja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vamana. That was his success of life. So this Krsna consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajna. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering. We may say that we are very happy, but that is not the fact. Tri-tapa, three kinds of miserable condition of life are there always, adhyatmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. But we are accustomed to suffering, and we say suffering is happiness. That is called maya. Actually, material life is... This body, as soon as we get this body, it means suffering.
Klesa. Material body means klesa, suffering. Why you are using this fan? Because without fan the body will be in pain, painful condition. So we are adjusting, trying to counteract. But the position is miserable. Therefore whole plan of Vedic civilizationhow to avoid this material body. That is called moksa. That is the plan. So Rsabhadeva is advising that nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. People have become mad, and they're doing everything which is not sanctioned by the sastra. Pramatta. Pramatta means mad. And why they have become mad? Indriya-pritaye, for sense gratification. There is no big hope. It is simply sense gratification. Sense gratification is there even in the animal life. So human life is not meant for sense gratification. That is also said in the sastra.
So the human life is meant for tapasya, not for sense gratification. Sense gratification, the facility is there even in the hogs and dogs life. So the human life is meant for yajna. We have got this chance. And especially in your province there is Balaji, and Balaji has got sufficient income. That income should be utilized for satisfaction of Balaji. Not otherwise. That is our request. People are suffering for want of God consciousness. So everything should be spent for spreading God consciousness all over the world. At least, people are contributing to Balaji, so whatever Balaji's property is there, that should be utilized for Balaji's mission. The Balaji's mission is... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:
na ca tasman manusyesu
kascin me priya-krttamah
[Bg. 18.69]
This idam guhyam, this confidential knowledge of Bhagavad-gita, should be spread all over the world. People are suffering. And that is the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He advises that amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So it will be glory of India if we preach the message of Krsna, Bhagavad-gita. They're accepting. And I wish that the Balaji's estate, Balaji's money, should be spent for spreading Krsna consciousness, not for any other purpose. That is my request.
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Indian (1): Please permit...
Prabhupada: Your question is?
Indian (1): Yes, varnasrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...
Prabhupada: Yes. Varnasramacara-vata. The varna and asrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varnasrama means the headbrahmana; the armsksatriya; the bellyvaisya; and the legsudra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varna, four varnas and four asramas. Four varnas means social divisions, and four asrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brahmana. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also requiredmilitary department or ksatriya department. Yuddhe capy apalayanam(?). The ksatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Krsna chastised him, kutas tva kasmalam idam visame samupasthitam anarya-justam akirti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brahmana. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brahmana. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brahmana must be maintained. A class of brahmana must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of ksatriya must be there, a class of vaisya must be there. This is called varnasrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varnasrama, revival of varnasrama is required. A class of men, brahmanasattva samo damas titiksa arjavam jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Astikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brahmana, a department of ksatriyathat education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah. Paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the sastra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau sudra-sambhavah, in this age almost everyone is sudra. So if sudras are there only, if there is no brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the sastra, yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama [Bg. 16.23]. So this brahmana, or ksatriya, vaisya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Guna. One must acquire the quality of brahmana and he must act as a brahmana. Then he is brahmana. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. Even in sudra family, if one is born sudra, but he has attained the quality of a brahmana, he must be accepted as brahmana. That is the sastra injunction.
yasya yal laksanam proktam
pumso varnabhivyanjakam
yad anyatrapi drsyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiset
[SB 7.11.35]
Yad anyatra. If the quality of brahmana is found in a person who is born in a sudra family, he should be accepted as brahmana. Similarly, if the quality of brahmana is found in sudra or the sudra quality found in brahmana, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Narada Muni has said... This is the statement of Narada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35]. So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brahmana family or ksatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brahmana; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brahmana. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brahmana, ksatriya especially. And vaisyas, they do not require any academical area. Krsi-goraksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. They can learn simply by associating with another vaisya. But brahmana, especially require education, Vedic literature. Pathana-pathana-yajana-yajana-dana-pratigrahah. Ksatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...
Indian (1): No, the institution for training this Swamiji? Your proposition?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas.
Indian (1): In Hyderabad.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (ministers start speaking in Hindi) [break] ...institute in your Andhra Pradesh. (pause, Hindi conversation) This is Telegu? In every language of the world. In Europe we are printing in English, in French, in Germany, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish. Hare Krsna. [break] (kirtana)
Hari-sauri: (in car) That temple of Birla's will be a little difficult to reach. (end)

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