November 20, 1975, Bombay
Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit of staying here.
Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit. No?
Prabhupāda: You have already. Otherwise how you are coming daily?
Dr. Patel: I don't know. I have got some...
Prabhupāda: We don't pay you any fee.
Dr. Patel: I feel some sort of attachment to you. That is why I come.
Prabhupāda: We don't pay you any fees, but why you come here?
Dr. Patel: That I don't know. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: What do you charge when you go outside?
Dr. Patel: I charge, by night, hundred rupees, and day, sixty, fifty, sixty rupees, not much. I don't charge much here. Bombay people charge double than me. You mean you want to charge me? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hare Kṛṣṇa. No, I mean to say, you are a professional man, you charge, but why do you come here free unless you have in mind?
Dr. Patel: I don't understand why I am attracted to you specially. I don't understand. I very much thinking, I have been thinking about it. There must be some pūrva-janma. We may be relatives. I don't know. No sādhu has been able to attract me as much as you have. Not even temples have attracted me, to tell the truth.
Yaśomatīnandana: There is no sādhu except Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Dr. Karttika Chandra Bose, he was a very big man. I was, under him, manager of Bose's laboratory. So from the very beginning my father was paying him two rupees fees. But when he became very big, still my father was paying two rupees. He was friend. So he refused to take. "No, no, no, you must be paid something." So he used to accept that two rupees. [break]
Yaśomatīnandana: Two rupees in those days were lot of money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Two rupees, nowadays forty rupees at least. Twenty times. Just like ghee. You can... Ghee or gold. Gold standard. So in our childhood, I have seen our mother used to purchase gold for ornaments-twenty rupees.
Dr. Patel: Eighteen, twenty rupees.
Yaśomatīnandana: Now it is six hundred. Six?
Dr. Patel: Seven hundred.
Yaśomatīnandana: Thirty-five times.
Dr. Patel: When I was married, gold was at nineteen rupees and fifty paisa.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930.
Prabhupāda: Nineteen rupees?
Dr. Patel: Nineteen rupees and a half.
Prabhupāda: Per tola?
Dr. Patel: Per tola.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930. 1930, yes.
Indian man (1): Sovereign cost eighteen rupees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because...
Dr. Patel: Sovereign was fourteen rupees.
Prabhupāda: In our marriage in 1918...
Dr. Patel: It was more because the First World War. Then it slumped down.
Prabhupāda: It dropped.
Dr. Patel: And the lowest was in 1930. Then it rose. Then in 1935 it was thirty rupees and in 1940 it was thirty-eight, and 1950 it was fifty rupees. And 1956 we bought at the rate of fifty-six rupees. I still remember that because we have been buying gold every year.
Indian man (2): 1959 or '60 the price was ninety-six rupees.
Dr. Patel: Then suddenly it rose. Now, because Americans are buying gold, the gold standard has been left out. They have taken, cornered the gold of the whole world. But I have heard that the Russians have got some gold mountains on the surface. They can take out gold very easily from there. Here you have to dig up deep down.
Prabhupāda: No, in South Africa there is gold. In the city there are so many gold mines in South Africa.
Dr. Patel: Yes. South Africa is today supplying more than half of the world gold. Our mines are getting exhausted in Kolar(?) and all this, Mysore State. America, they have not been able to search out gold anywhere. Perhaps in South America they may be having some gold mines, but they have not made any survey. But the Russians, they say there are very huge mountains, gold on the surface.
Yaśomatīnandana: Sumeru is made of gold, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Yaśomatīnandana: Where is that located? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: In your mind.
Prabhupāda: No. Where is the sun located now?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sun. Sun. Where is located now?
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, it's out of my sight.
Prabhupāda: You cannot see it.
Yaśomatīnandana: Sumeru we cannot see. It's not on the earth?
Prabhupāda: You can, but you have no eyes.
Dr. Patel: I don't know whether you are a bandhu or yourself. Well, I call you what I...
Nanda-kumāra: In South America one man went up the Amazon River and he found a place where he could pick gold nuggets up out of the water.
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets are there in the rivers, so many, in Africa.
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets. Because gold never get, I mean, oxidized. It is always in (unclear). So nuggets, they are available in big rivers even in Africa. Because when they come through the mountain, you know.
Dr. Patel: The sand is of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. There you can find gold.
Brahmānanda: The city of Johannesburg is built on a gold reef, a reef of gold. There's so much gold there, and to dig it up they will have to break the city streets. They have deliberately built the city on top of the gold.
Dr. Patel: That South Africa is in the belt of Brazil more or less. And Brazil is very difficult place to search about this because they are all jungle, no? Brazil and south of Brazil. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...Russians do not utilize the gold...
Dr. Patel: They think gold has got no value so far as value... Because it is a stamping metal. Otherwise what use it can be made of? So far as the society is concerned, iron is more important than gold, to tell the truth.
Prabhupāda: So let them exchange.
Dr. Patel: From the utility point of view.
Prabhupāda: Let them exchange. We give them iron. (laughter) Let me...
Dr. Patel: They don't want to. They may use it at some future date.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals.
Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hegel, Engels, all these fellows were more materialist, all those three philosophers. And the philosophy of Karl Marx is the abstract materialism.
Brahmānanda: Now one book has been published in Russia, An Appreciation of Nehru. All the...
Dr. Patel: He was a Marxist, you see. He went in 1912 to Moscow before the revolution to meet all those fellows.
Brahmānanda: This book is stories of different Russian scientists and politicians, philosophers, giving their appreciation of how they knew Nehru and...
Prabhupāda: Just to pacify Indira Gandhi.
Dr. Patel: Flattering.
Brahmānanda: So they've just presented this book.
Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians?
Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America.
Prabhupāda: The Germans.
Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that...
Prabhupāda: They understood from the Germans.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hitler knew it.
Dr. Patel: No. They were not able to be successful to...
Prabhupāda: No, no. He knew it, everything, but he did not like to do it. He said. He said. He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that "I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon." The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it. And all the, your American, other countries, they have stolen from German ideas.
Dr. Patel: I think, sir, German scientists ran away during the wartime to America.
Brahmānanda: The German scientists, they went to America. But the plans for these things were left in Germany and the Russians came. The Russians got the plans, the Americans got the scientists.
Dr. Patel: I see. So the Russians, I mean, scientists produced from the plan the bomb.
Brahmānanda: That's why the Americans got it first, because they had the scientists.
Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation.
Prabhupāda: No, more scientists were there in Germany.
Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our Vedas and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them.
Prabhupāda: That is also fact.
Dr. Patel: And one Śaṅkarācārya—I don't know which—who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one śloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences.
Indian man (2): This is fact?
Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: [break] ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akāśa-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on.
Dr. Patel: We have in Mahābhārata, that, I mean, Bhima threw away those elephants and rowing in the sky. And when Parīkṣit thought "How could it be?" then that elephants came down in the story. That means they were rowing about just like sputniks of today, perhaps. I don't know how they might have...
Prabhupāda: No, three books they have taken. They paid some eight lakhs of rupees. That Mr. Badhuri told me. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: That means this civilization must have felt the pangs of the modern sciences and then they must have lost it. No?
Prabhupāda: Not lost. It is there. You don't take it. That's it. What is there? One who can read... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Good boy.
Harikesa: They couldn't chant those mantras though, could they? If they tried... Even if they tried, they wouldn't be able to chant the mantras.
Prabhupāda: Why? Nobody taught them. You are chanting. How you are chanting? Nobody taught them. That is the difficulty.
Jayapataka: Why the Germans are good Sanskrit scholars? Why?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they had very good tendency for learning Sanskrit to know so many things. That was their research. They knew it that in Sanskrit language there are so many wonderful things.
Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they say that in American universities also, many universities have started teaching Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In every school, every college, every university, there is Sanskrit. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...was the real man who, when he started studying Vedas, he realized that in Sanskrit language there is a huge literature of great importance. He spread the things in Germany. No, he was staying in England.
Prabhupāda: By international scholars' meeting these diacritic marks were discovered for studying Sanskrit. The diacritic marks which we use, that is international agreement of Sanskrit scholars.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. Those marks. A, and a and u and ai and these dots. Yes, that is international. Nobody can claim. That is long back, sir. I think Max Muller's time.
Dr. Patel: There were so many scholars, even in Paris, Germany, and Italy.
Prabhupāda: Professor Roe and Webb, they were professor in Presidency College when we were school children. They admitted Sanskrit is the mother of all languages.
Dr. Patel: In fact, Persian is the first letter of Sanskrit which looks like that. When you study Persian, so many words-Sanskrit directly taken Persian. In the Russian language, I mean, so many words are there of Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: No, whole world you'll find Sanskrit. The first word, mother and father, that is Sanskrit, matri and pitri.
Yaśomatīnandana: Ha, everywhere. Everywhere starts like that, all the languages.
Brahmānanda: ...mother is "mere" and father is "pere."
Prabhupāda: [break] ...is madri? Ba, pha.
Brahmānanda: In Spanish, father is "padre."
Dr. Patel: Latin and Sanskrit are more or less common. They have got those sapta-vibhaktīs in Latin also.
Prabhupāda: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Dr. Patel: The cow from... Gao from cow, and cow from gao. No? It is absolutely not..., so very easy.
Prabhupāda: We are Kṛṣṇian, and they are Christian. There is similarity.
Dr. Patel: Nomenclature. Christ was really a bhāgavata, I mean, in a true sense.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhāgavata.
Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhāgavata-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhāgavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatāra.
Prabhupāda: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.
Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he...
Prabhupāda: No, even by yoga system...
Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance.
Prabhupāda: He lived by trance.
Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it.
Prabhupāda: By trance.
Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity. The churches have degenerated in his teaching, unfortunately. It is the church. That happens with every, in every, I mean, these things, teachings. Race, this race is very bold, indeed, that God choicest race, these Jews, somehow or other.
Dr. Patel: Really, it is God's choicest race. (laughter) They have produced wonderful people right from Christ up to Professor Einstein, very bold people, very bold indeed. They are truthful to their convictions. They would die for their convictions but they will not, I mean, budge an inch.
Brahmānanda: But they're impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Very brave. Very brave race.
Brahmānanda: They are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Today still, those people really very brave. Very brave. It is the choicest race from God. It's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda is very much pleased. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I don't know who are they, but that is a fact. When you look back to the history, it's the really choicest race.
Yaśomatīnandana: Girirāja is also from.
Dr. Patel: Whatever he may be. I don't know them, who are they. But historically we look back. They are really very brave people. They have died for the sake of their principle. Never budge an inch.
Brahmānanda: But they are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Impersonalist or personalist is immaterial. (laughter) I mean I talk of boldness, very bold people. Truthful to their conviction. Truthful to their conviction, sir.
Prabhupāda: They are so bold that, Shylock?
Brahmānanda: Yeah, yeah, the flesh.
Dr. Patel: There are Shylocks everywhere. One Shylock does not mean a bad race. And that Shylock is the creation of that poet.
Prabhupāda: No, the... In Europe the Jews are treated like that.
Dr. Patel: Are there not Shylocks in...
Prabhupāda: And they are greatest scientist.
Dr. Patel: All the Marwaris, who are they? They are Shylocks. And they give you lot of money and you make them sit first before us, you know.
Dr. Patel: I am... Don't say that. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the richest in the world.
Dr. Patel: Maybe richer because they are very serious in... Wherever they are, they are serious. In collecting wealth also they are very serious. In collecting, I mean...
Girirāja: Life members.
Dr. Patel: ...them also they are serious. In knowledge also they are serious. And in preaching also.
Dr. Patel: Look at the Christ. Look at the Christ. Against all odds he's, I mean, up to the end of his life he remained one, truthful to his convictions. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...keśa-dharanam. Every young man is keeping big, big hair. Lavanyaṁ keśa... That is the symptom of this age. It is written in the Bhāgavata, lavanyaṁ keśa-dharanaṁ. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi: "A man becomes brāhmaṇa simply by that thread."
Dr. Patel: They keep on the thread for cavi, for keeping key there so it may not be lost.
Prabhupāda: And daṁpatye ratim eva hi: "Husband and wife means sex." Daṁpatye ratim eva hi. This, everything is there.
Dr. Patel: The ideals were established so high that it was difficult for the common folk to reach that.
Prabhupāda: That is not for common folk. It is for the rājarṣis-imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ—not for the loafer class. Therefore the whole population was trained how to become rājarṣi. Now the loafer class, they are taking the place of rājarṣi. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says that this science is meant for the rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. He did not go to preach to the loafer class.
Dr. Patel: That is why it became naṣṭa.
Prabhupāda: No. The system was naṣṭa. A loafer class, he became a student of Bhagavad-gītā. That is...Therefore it is naṣṭa. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. And anyone, any rascal, is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā. But it was meant for the rājarṣi.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I must have read at least, if not more, at least twenty commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā. But I found the best by Ācārya Rāmānujācārya and yours.
Dr. Patel: You are parallel, more or less. Your, I read in English, but that was in Sanskrit, the Sanskrit explained to English. Wonderful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmānujācārya has given Vedic quotation for each and every verse.
Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very easy also, Rāmānujācārya's.
Prabhupāda: Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas, he was the greatest ācārya, Rāmānujācārya. And to kill the Māyāvādīs, he was the ablest person, Rāmānujācārya. Still in South India, the Māyāvādīs and the Rāmānujas, they have talks, and the Māyāvādīs are defeated always.
Dr. Patel: These ācāryas, they are all Rāmānujācārya followers that Tithi Kṛṣṇam Ācāri(?) and Rajgopal Ācārya, and they are all these Vaiṣṇavas of Rāmānujācārya.
Dr. Patel: Nayars are non-Aryans. Then the... All Nayars are black, charcoal black, because they are not Aryans. Aryans have the white, light skin.
Prabhupāda: Even in Madras there are many brāhmaṇas, black.
Dr. Patel: Brāhmaṇas, they are Ayars. They are quite... Even though they have settled in Madras for generations together, they are still having the color of... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Āryas, they are not Vaiṣṇava, then. Ayar? Eh?
Indian man (1): Śaṅkarācāryādi.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ācāryas, they are Vaiṣṇava.
Dr. Patel: He is also nayara, Mr. Mennon.
Prabhupāda: No, nayar is not brāhmaṇa.
Indian man (1): No brāhmaṇas. No brāhmaṇas.
Indian man (1): We have to serve the brāhmaṇas.
Dr. Patel: Don't serve them now. They are rascals.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) [break]
Dr. Patel: ...mother died. Their relatives never came to lift her up. So himself dragged the dead body out and burned her just in front of his house.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Dr. Patel: Was he? No, no. Both were brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: He was born when his mother was widow, and she became pregnant by the priest. So she was going to kill herself. Then her father restrained her, that "Don't do it. Your... In the womb there is a big personality." So the brāhmaṇa community did not like her.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is called Śaṅkarācārya.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Śaṅkara is the name of Śaṅkara. I don't agree you have said correctly.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara... Śaṅkara is Bhagavān. But because he is Śaṅkara, therefore he is not accepted as Bhagavān. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Śaṅkara means mixed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained that kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi-vikāra. Kṣīram, milk, becomes dadhi-vikāra.
Dr. Patel: Dahi.
Prabhupāda: Dahi. So dahi is nothing but milk, but you cannot call it milk.
Dr. Patel: But he was a non-mudri-patha(?) brāhmaṇa and I think his father was not a priest but regular man.
Prabhupāda: Your daughter?
Indian man (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyāsī, and then he came back and had a gṛhastha-āśrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru...
Dr. Patel: The sannyāsī cannot come back.
Indian man (2): Oh, Vallabhācārya.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya. No, no, Vallabhācārya's whole position is like that. So many of them, all these brāhmaṇas, they think themsevles to be... Some of them are even horrible people; still, they call them gurus.
Prabhupāda: That was formerly also. Śukrācārya: "Ācārya by semina." Śukrācārya.
Dr. Patel: Ācārya of śukra.
Indian man (1): We have got our Pultasena.(?) Pultasena means he is a lower-class man. He has written the Rāmāyaṇa in Malayalam. He was the son of a muhri(?) (indistinct), and the muhri was crossing a river, just when he came to a lake. That river he cannot cross because (indistinct). So he said, "There is an auspicious moment. If I get a son, he will be a wonderful chap." So he went and slept in somebody's veranda. That lady (indistinct) He was not getting sleep, walking up and down. He asked (indistinct) The lady of the house came back and told, "Oh, at this auspicious moment if I get a son he will be wonderful chap." So he got a son from that... And this man went away. After so many years, when he came, this boy, from the childhood he went to the temple. And when he goes there he says, "False, false." He used to say because these brāhmaṇas are narrating the Vedas in such a bad way, it is all false only. It is all darkness. The muhri knew if they gave some (Hindi) after praying something, they (indistinct) The boy (indistinct) Then this amuhri came after so many years that way. He saw this boy, he understood it. Then he gave another... [break]
Dr. Patel: ...are rogues. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: And the Patel was subordinate to Nehru. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, no. Patel, for the sake of the country he accepted the subordination. Otherwise whole India, all provinces, selected him as the prime minister. But because this man would have spoiled the whole thing he said, "I don't mind if my country is getting weak." He had a greatness of vision and a big heart. These are all petty-hearted people.
Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community.
Dr. Patel: The Kāśmīrī brāhmaṇas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kāśmīrī paṇḍita, Keśava Kāśmīrī.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita.
Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Śaṅkarācārya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the...
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Keśava Kāśmīrī and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...read that portion, ātmarāma ca munayo?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I have just day before yesterday. I am reading Bhāgavata again. I am in the sixth adhyāya, after nearly finishing all the vṛttānta of Nārada Muni's previous birth and all this. Ātmarāma. Yes. That śloka is repeated by so many Vaiṣṇavas everywhere.
Prabhupāda: [break] You are going to canvass for books? No.
Devotee: I think it's a good idea but we don't have permission yet from the government to do that. We can't do that as yet. [break]
Prabhupāda: Now we have to get permission for selling. We have got to.
Dr. Patel: What?
Prabhupāda: These books.
Dr. Patel: I don't think there is any need of permission.
Prabhupāda: No, we gave our promise... (end)