November 20, 1975, Bombay
Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit of staying here.
Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit. No?
Prabhupada: You have already. Otherwise how you are coming daily?
Dr. Patel: I don't know. I have got some...
Prabhupada: We don't pay you any fee.
Dr. Patel: I feel some sort of attachment to you. That is why I come.
Prabhupada: We don't pay you any fees, but why you come here?
Dr. Patel: That I don't know. (laughter)
Prabhupada: What do you charge when you go outside?
Dr. Patel: I charge, by night, hundred rupees, and day, sixty, fifty, sixty rupees, not much. I don't charge much here. Bombay people charge double than me. You mean you want to charge me? (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no. Hare Krsna. No, I mean to say, you are a professional man, you charge, but why do you come here free unless you have in mind?
Dr. Patel: I don't understand why I am attracted to you specially. I don't understand. I very much thinking, I have been thinking about it. There must be some purva-janma. We may be relatives. I don't know. No sadhu has been able to attract me as much as you have. Not even temples have attracted me, to tell the truth.
Yasomatinandana: There is no sadhu except Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] Dr. Karttika Chandra Bose, he was a very big man. I was, under him, manager of Bose's laboratory. So from the very beginning my father was paying him two rupees fees. But when he became very big, still my father was paying two rupees. He was friend. So he refused to take. "No, no, no, you must be paid something." So he used to accept that two rupees. [break]
Yasomatinandana: Two rupees in those days were lot of money.
Prabhupada: Yes. Two rupees, nowadays forty rupees at least. Twenty times. Just like ghee. You can... Ghee or gold. Gold standard. So in our childhood, I have seen our mother used to purchase gold for ornaments-twenty rupees.
Dr. Patel: Eighteen, twenty rupees.
Yasomatinandana: Now it is six hundred. Six?
Dr. Patel: Seven hundred.
Yasomatinandana: Thirty-five times.
Dr. Patel: When I was married, gold was at nineteen rupees and fifty paisa.
Prabhupada: No. No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930.
Prabhupada: Nineteen rupees?
Dr. Patel: Nineteen rupees and a half.
Prabhupada: Per tola?
Dr. Patel: Per tola.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930. 1930, yes.
Indian man (1): Sovereign cost eighteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because...
Dr. Patel: Sovereign was fourteen rupees.
Prabhupada: In our marriage in 1918...
Dr. Patel: It was more because the First World War. Then it slumped down.
Prabhupada: It dropped.
Dr. Patel: And the lowest was in 1930. Then it rose. Then in 1935 it was thirty rupees and in 1940 it was thirty-eight, and 1950 it was fifty rupees. And 1956 we bought at the rate of fifty-six rupees. I still remember that because we have been buying gold every year.
Indian man (2): 1959 or '60 the price was ninety-six rupees.
Dr. Patel: Then suddenly it rose. Now, because Americans are buying gold, the gold standard has been left out. They have taken, cornered the gold of the whole world. But I have heard that the Russians have got some gold mountains on the surface. They can take out gold very easily from there. Here you have to dig up deep down.
Prabhupada: No, in South Africa there is gold. In the city there are so many gold mines in South Africa.
Dr. Patel: Yes. South Africa is today supplying more than half of the world gold. Our mines are getting exhausted in Kolar(?) and all this, Mysore State. America, they have not been able to search out gold anywhere. Perhaps in South America they may be having some gold mines, but they have not made any survey. But the Russians, they say there are very huge mountains, gold on the surface.
Yasomatinandana: Sumeru is made of gold, Srila Prabhupada?
Yasomatinandana: Where is that located? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: In your mind.
Prabhupada: No. Where is the sun located now?
Prabhupada: No, no. Sun. Sun. Where is located now?
Yasomatinandana: Oh, it's out of my sight.
Prabhupada: You cannot see it.
Yasomatinandana: Sumeru we cannot see. It's not on the earth?
Prabhupada: You can, but you have no eyes.
Dr. Patel: I don't know whether you are a bandhu or yourself. Well, I call you what I...
Nanda-kumara: In South America one man went up the Amazon River and he found a place where he could pick gold nuggets up out of the water.
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets are there in the rivers, so many, in Africa.
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets. Because gold never get, I mean, oxidized. It is always in (unclear). So nuggets, they are available in big rivers even in Africa. Because when they come through the mountain, you know.
Dr. Patel: The sand is of the...
Prabhupada: Yes. There you can find gold.
Brahmananda: The city of Johannesburg is built on a gold reef, a reef of gold. There's so much gold there, and to dig it up they will have to break the city streets. They have deliberately built the city on top of the gold.
Dr. Patel: That South Africa is in the belt of Brazil more or less. And Brazil is very difficult place to search about this because they are all jungle, no? Brazil and south of Brazil. [break]
Prabhupada: ...Russians do not utilize the gold...
Dr. Patel: They think gold has got no value so far as value... Because it is a stamping metal. Otherwise what use it can be made of? So far as the society is concerned, iron is more important than gold, to tell the truth.
Prabhupada: So let them exchange.
Dr. Patel: From the utility point of view.
Prabhupada: Let them exchange. We give them iron. (laughter) Let me...
Dr. Patel: They don't want to. They may use it at some future date.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals.
Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hegel, Engels, all these fellows were more materialist, all those three philosophers. And the philosophy of Karl Marx is the abstract materialism.
Brahmananda: Now one book has been published in Russia, An Appreciation of Nehru. All the...
Dr. Patel: He was a Marxist, you see. He went in 1912 to Moscow before the revolution to meet all those fellows.
Brahmananda: This book is stories of different Russian scientists and politicians, philosophers, giving their appreciation of how they knew Nehru and...
Prabhupada: Just to pacify Indira Gandhi.
Dr. Patel: Flattering.
Brahmananda: So they've just presented this book.
Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians?
Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America.
Prabhupada: The Germans.
Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that...
Prabhupada: They understood from the Germans.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world.
Prabhupada: No, no. Hitler knew it.
Dr. Patel: No. They were not able to be successful to...
Prabhupada: No, no. He knew it, everything, but he did not like to do it. He said. He said. He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that "I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon." The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it. And all the, your American, other countries, they have stolen from German ideas.
Dr. Patel: I think, sir, German scientists ran away during the wartime to America.
Brahmananda: The German scientists, they went to America. But the plans for these things were left in Germany and the Russians came. The Russians got the plans, the Americans got the scientists.
Dr. Patel: I see. So the Russians, I mean, scientists produced from the plan the bomb.
Brahmananda: That's why the Americans got it first, because they had the scientists.
Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation.
Prabhupada: No, more scientists were there in Germany.
Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our Vedas and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them.
Prabhupada: That is also fact.
Dr. Patel: And one Sankaracarya—I don't know which—who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one sloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences.
Indian man (2): This is fact?
Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: [break] ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akasa-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on.
Dr. Patel: We have in Mahabharata, that, I mean, Bhima threw away those elephants and rowing in the sky. And when Pariksit thought "How could it be?" then that elephants came down in the story. That means they were rowing about just like sputniks of today, perhaps. I don't know how they might have...
Prabhupada: No, three books they have taken. They paid some eight lakhs of rupees. That Mr. Badhuri told me. (aside) Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That means this civilization must have felt the pangs of the modern sciences and then they must have lost it. No?
Prabhupada: Not lost. It is there. You don't take it. That's it. What is there? One who can read... Hare Krsna. Jaya. Good boy.
Harikesa: They couldn't chant those mantras though, could they? If they tried... Even if they tried, they wouldn't be able to chant the mantras.
Prabhupada: Why? Nobody taught them. You are chanting. How you are chanting? Nobody taught them. That is the difficulty.
Jayapataka: Why the Germans are good Sanskrit scholars? Why?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because they had very good tendency for learning Sanskrit to know so many things. That was their research. They knew it that in Sanskrit language there are so many wonderful things.
Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they say that in American universities also, many universities have started teaching Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes. In every school, every college, every university, there is Sanskrit. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...was the real man who, when he started studying Vedas, he realized that in Sanskrit language there is a huge literature of great importance. He spread the things in Germany. No, he was staying in England.
Prabhupada: By international scholars' meeting these diacritic marks were discovered for studying Sanskrit. The diacritic marks which we use, that is international agreement of Sanskrit scholars.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. Those marks. A, and a and u and ai and these dots. Yes, that is international. Nobody can claim. That is long back, sir. I think Max Muller's time.
Dr. Patel: There were so many scholars, even in Paris, Germany, and Italy.
Prabhupada: Professor Roe and Webb, they were professor in Presidency College when we were school children. They admitted Sanskrit is the mother of all languages.
Dr. Patel: In fact, Persian is the first letter of Sanskrit which looks like that. When you study Persian, so many words-Sanskrit directly taken Persian. In the Russian language, I mean, so many words are there of Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, whole world you'll find Sanskrit. The first word, mother and father, that is Sanskrit, matri and pitri.
Yasomatinandana: Ha, everywhere. Everywhere starts like that, all the languages.
Brahmananda: ...mother is "mere" and father is "pere."
Prabhupada: [break] ...is madri? Ba, pha.
Brahmananda: In Spanish, father is "padre."
Dr. Patel: Latin and Sanskrit are more or less common. They have got those sapta-vibhaktis in Latin also.
Prabhupada: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Krsna. Yes.
Dr. Patel: The cow from... Gao from cow, and cow from gao. No? It is absolutely not..., so very easy.
Prabhupada: We are Krsnian, and they are Christian. There is similarity.
Dr. Patel: Nomenclature. Christ was really a bhagavata, I mean, in a true sense.
Prabhupada: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhagavata-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhagavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatara.
Prabhupada: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.
Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he...
Prabhupada: No, even by yoga system...
Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance.
Prabhupada: He lived by trance.
Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it.
Prabhupada: By trance.
Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity. The churches have degenerated in his teaching, unfortunately. It is the church. That happens with every, in every, I mean, these things, teachings. Race, this race is very bold, indeed, that God choicest race, these Jews, somehow or other.
Dr. Patel: Really, it is God's choicest race. (laughter) They have produced wonderful people right from Christ up to Professor Einstein, very bold people, very bold indeed. They are truthful to their convictions. They would die for their convictions but they will not, I mean, budge an inch.
Brahmananda: But they're impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Very brave. Very brave race.
Brahmananda: They are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Today still, those people really very brave. Very brave. It is the choicest race from God. It's a fact.
Prabhupada: Brahmananda is very much pleased. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I don't know who are they, but that is a fact. When you look back to the history, it's the really choicest race.
Yasomatinandana: Giriraja is also from.
Dr. Patel: Whatever he may be. I don't know them, who are they. But historically we look back. They are really very brave people. They have died for the sake of their principle. Never budge an inch.
Brahmananda: But they are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Impersonalist or personalist is immaterial. (laughter) I mean I talk of boldness, very bold people. Truthful to their conviction. Truthful to their conviction, sir.
Prabhupada: They are so bold that, Shylock?
Brahmananda: Yeah, yeah, the flesh.
Dr. Patel: There are Shylocks everywhere. One Shylock does not mean a bad race. And that Shylock is the creation of that poet.
Prabhupada: No, the... In Europe the Jews are treated like that.
Dr. Patel: Are there not Shylocks in...
Prabhupada: And they are greatest scientist.
Dr. Patel: All the Marwaris, who are they? They are Shylocks. And they give you lot of money and you make them sit first before us, you know.
Dr. Patel: I am... Don't say that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the richest in the world.
Dr. Patel: Maybe richer because they are very serious in... Wherever they are, they are serious. In collecting wealth also they are very serious. In collecting, I mean...
Giriraja: Life members.
Dr. Patel: ...them also they are serious. In knowledge also they are serious. And in preaching also.
Dr. Patel: Look at the Christ. Look at the Christ. Against all odds he's, I mean, up to the end of his life he remained one, truthful to his convictions. [break]
Prabhupada: ...kesa-dharanam. Every young man is keeping big, big hair. Lavanyam kesa... That is the symptom of this age. It is written in the Bhagavata, lavanyam kesa-dharanam. Vipratvam sutram eva hi. Vipratvam sutram eva hi: "A man becomes brahmana simply by that thread."
Dr. Patel: They keep on the thread for cavi, for keeping key there so it may not be lost.
Prabhupada: And dampatye ratim eva hi: "Husband and wife means sex." Dampatye ratim eva hi. This, everything is there.
Dr. Patel: The ideals were established so high that it was difficult for the common folk to reach that.
Prabhupada: That is not for common folk. It is for the rajarsis-imam rajarsayo viduh—not for the loafer class. Therefore the whole population was trained how to become rajarsi. Now the loafer class, they are taking the place of rajarsi. That is the difficulty. Krsna says that this science is meant for the rajarsi. Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. He did not go to preach to the loafer class.
Dr. Patel: That is why it became nasta.
Prabhupada: No. The system was nasta. A loafer class, he became a student of Bhagavad-gita. That is...Therefore it is nasta. Sa kaleneha yogo nastah parantapa. And anyone, any rascal, is commenting on Bhagavad-gita. But it was meant for the rajarsi.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I must have read at least, if not more, at least twenty commentaries on Bhagavad-gita. But I found the best by Acarya Ramanujacarya and yours.
Dr. Patel: You are parallel, more or less. Your, I read in English, but that was in Sanskrit, the Sanskrit explained to English. Wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ramanujacarya has given Vedic quotation for each and every verse.
Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very easy also, Ramanujacarya's.
Prabhupada: Amongst the Vaisnavas, he was the greatest acarya, Ramanujacarya. And to kill the Mayavadis, he was the ablest person, Ramanujacarya. Still in South India, the Mayavadis and the Ramanujas, they have talks, and the Mayavadis are defeated always.
Dr. Patel: These acaryas, they are all Ramanujacarya followers that Tithi Krsnam Acari(?) and Rajgopal Acarya, and they are all these Vaisnavas of Ramanujacarya.
Dr. Patel: Nayars are non-Aryans. Then the... All Nayars are black, charcoal black, because they are not Aryans. Aryans have the white, light skin.
Prabhupada: Even in Madras there are many brahmanas, black.
Dr. Patel: Brahmanas, they are Ayars. They are quite... Even though they have settled in Madras for generations together, they are still having the color of... (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, no. Aryas, they are not Vaisnava, then. Ayar? Eh?
Indian man (1): Sankaracaryadi.(?)
Prabhupada: Acaryas, they are Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: He is also nayara, Mr. Mennon.
Prabhupada: No, nayar is not brahmana.
Indian man (1): No brahmanas. No brahmanas.
Indian man (1): We have to serve the brahmanas.
Dr. Patel: Don't serve them now. They are rascals.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) [break]
Dr. Patel: ...mother died. Their relatives never came to lift her up. So himself dragged the dead body out and burned her just in front of his house.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Dr. Patel: Was he? No, no. Both were brahmanas.
Prabhupada: He was born when his mother was widow, and she became pregnant by the priest. So she was going to kill herself. Then her father restrained her, that "Don't do it. Your... In the womb there is a big personality." So the brahmana community did not like her.
Yasomatinandana: Oh, I see.
Prabhupada: Therefore he is called Sankaracarya.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Sankara is the name of Sankara. I don't agree you have said correctly.
Prabhupada: Sankara... Sankara is Bhagavan. But because he is Sankara, therefore he is not accepted as Bhagavan. Hare Krsna.
Yasomatinandana: Sankara means mixed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained that ksiram yatha dadhi-vikara. Ksiram, milk, becomes dadhi-vikara.
Dr. Patel: Dahi.
Prabhupada: Dahi. So dahi is nothing but milk, but you cannot call it milk.
Dr. Patel: But he was a non-mudri-patha(?) brahmana and I think his father was not a priest but regular man.
Prabhupada: Your daughter?
Indian man (2): Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyasi, and then he came back and had a grhastha-asrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru...
Dr. Patel: The sannyasi cannot come back.
Indian man (2): Oh, Vallabhacarya.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya. No, no, Vallabhacarya's whole position is like that. So many of them, all these brahmanas, they think themsevles to be... Some of them are even horrible people; still, they call them gurus.
Prabhupada: That was formerly also. Sukracarya: "Acarya by semina." Sukracarya.
Dr. Patel: Acarya of sukra.
Indian man (1): We have got our Pultasena.(?) Pultasena means he is a lower-class man. He has written the Ramayana in Malayalam. He was the son of a muhri(?) (indistinct), and the muhri was crossing a river, just when he came to a lake. That river he cannot cross because (indistinct). So he said, "There is an auspicious moment. If I get a son, he will be a wonderful chap." So he went and slept in somebody's veranda. That lady (indistinct) He was not getting sleep, walking up and down. He asked (indistinct) The lady of the house came back and told, "Oh, at this auspicious moment if I get a son he will be wonderful chap." So he got a son from that... And this man went away. After so many years, when he came, this boy, from the childhood he went to the temple. And when he goes there he says, "False, false." He used to say because these brahmanas are narrating the Vedas in such a bad way, it is all false only. It is all darkness. The muhri knew if they gave some (Hindi) after praying something, they (indistinct) The boy (indistinct) Then this amuhri came after so many years that way. He saw this boy, he understood it. Then he gave another... [break]
Dr. Patel: ...are rogues. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: And the Patel was subordinate to Nehru. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, no. Patel, for the sake of the country he accepted the subordination. Otherwise whole India, all provinces, selected him as the prime minister. But because this man would have spoiled the whole thing he said, "I don't mind if my country is getting weak." He had a greatness of vision and a big heart. These are all petty-hearted people.
Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community.
Dr. Patel: The Kasmiri brahmanas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are.
Prabhupada: [break] ...Caitanya Mahaprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kasmiri pandita, Kesava Kasmiri.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nimai Pandita.
Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Sankaracarya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the...
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Kesava Kasmiri and Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Krsna. [break] ...read that portion, atmarama ca munayo?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I have just day before yesterday. I am reading Bhagavata again. I am in the sixth adhyaya, after nearly finishing all the vrttanta of Narada Muni's previous birth and all this. Atmarama. Yes. That sloka is repeated by so many Vaisnavas everywhere.
Prabhupada: [break] You are going to canvass for books? No.
Devotee: I think it's a good idea but we don't have permission yet from the government to do that. We can't do that as yet. [break]
Prabhupada: Now we have to get permission for selling. We have got to.
Dr. Patel: What?
Prabhupada: These books.
Dr. Patel: I don't think there is any need of permission.
Prabhupada: No, we gave our promise... (end)