Prabhupada: Fools, they assemble together and people are unhappy. Democracy. Eh? Communists.

Devotee: But they have some sort of democracy themselves.

Prabhupada: They are dictators. Stalin's dictatorship was going on.

Devotee: It's all dictatorship.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: Democracy is also dictatorship. Just by elections. They elect a fool...

Prabhupada: (laughs)

Devotee: ...and then he can do whatever he wants.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: The sacrifice means the animal slaughter has to be done in the mosque, is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: It has to be made under special conditions. [break]

Prabhupada: ...later on they turned into Vaisnavas. [break] Young preachers, hopeless [break] ...real thing and people follow then everything is possible.

Devotee: Yes, then you can rule the world.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]...combined together it is very pleasing. [break] Eh?

Devotee: Tehran used to be very beautiful before there were so many cars. Very clean, very clear. The land, and when I was a child the land was very cheap here. So, now it is very, very expensive and very polluted with cars.

Prabhupada: Due to the cars?

Devotee: Yes.

Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.

Devotee: Yes. It was very nice, very clear and very nice.

Prabhupada: Again, let them become farmers. [break]

Devotee: The mornings were very cool, very cool and during the day it was hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting japa in background)

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: In India, Tirupati, I that Deity is richer than many kings in the world. Daily, 100,000 rupees, not (indistinct), daily. [break] Which king who has got so much money? If you organize, you can take the whole income for cause of Krsna consciousness, if you are really organized. That is possible.

Devotee: Where is this temple?

Prabhupada: In South India.

Devotee: South India.

Devotee: (indistinct) (barely audible) ...industrialists they are making life very difficult.

Prabhupada: Where, where?

Devotee: In India.

Prabhupada: In India. Oh.

Devotee: One industrialist friend, (indistinct), who has come to Tehran, I visited him. Very, very rich industrialist, he built a temple, very nice temple, (indistinct), and the government was not pleased that he has built a temple and they came in and searched his house and they gave him 20,000,000 rupees penalty.

Prabhupada: For constructing a temple?

Devotee: No, for taxes and but their real reason was they were not happy that he was spending his money constructing a temple. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Juhu Beach temple?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Don't mind. All the work is going on. It doesn't matter. [break] ...prayer, five times?

Guest: Well, it's the Islamic prayer five times a day but she is compressing it to three times. It's the same prayer.

Prabhupada: Why?

Guest: Because they are permitted to say two of the prayers at noon and two of the prayers in the evening at one time, rather than spreading them through the afternoon and ...

Prabhupada: Why are they disobeying the order of Mohammed?

Guest: Yes, they follow. It's essentially the same practice as the majority.

Prabhupada: Yes, you cannot amend on the words of Mohammed if you are a true Muslim.

Guest: I don't think they have meant to amend it, its just that...

Prabhupada: Now why? There was five now they have made three. (indistinct) You cannot do that.

Guest: They maintain that, that Ali, that this was the practice of Ali. That Ali prayed at noon in the afternoon.

Guest: Ali is a representative of Mohammed.

Guest: He's the brother, brother-in-law, the son-in-law.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: Ali.

Prabhupada: Ali, Ali.

Guest: He was...

Prabhupada: Ali Hussein.

Guest: Hussein is his son. Ali is the cousin and the son-in-law of the prophet Mohammed. But can they feel the grace of Krsna within this framework?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: Within the framework of their dietary laws and their ah, in opening up the experience of Krsna to them?

Prabhupada: No. If one wants to follow Koran, let him follow strictly that. No halfway (indistinct).

Guest: Then preaching in Iran should be essentially to people who have fallen away from their traditional path.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is fallen. They are simply amending, concoction. That is not good. Why they should amend? Mohammed presented himself in what relationship with God?

Guest: With God? He presented himself as the last expression of the divine revelation in the West.

Prabhupada: No, what was his relationship? Just like Christ, he presented himself as the son of God. So what is the position of Mohammed?

Guest: He presented himself as a man, was considered by Muslims to be the perfect man.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: And ah, he was the perfect expression of the divine manifestation in human terms. He was not a divine figure as Christ or Krsna. He was a, ah, simply a man, and ah, he was the mouthpiece of the ah, divine word.

Prabhupada: What is the meaning of Allah?

Guest: It means God, the greatest.

Prabhupada: Greatest.

Guest: Yes, God as being the superlative of (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Eh? Mohammed is the greatest? No, he's subordinate?

Guest: No. In fact, Muslims object to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they worship Mohammed. Whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to Allah, which Mohammed is simply a messenger.

Prabhupada: That's good.

Guest: And they call their religion Islam, which means submission.

Prabhupada: That's very good.

Guest: The Muslim is he who submits.

Prabhupada: Then God is the greatest and we are infinite, finite, limited, we are not greatest.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: And our business is to serve Him. What is that?

Guest: Our business is to serve Him? Precisely it was said last night...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: Our business is to satisfy. There is a tradition, there is a body of forty traditions, which are called the sacred traditions. One of which says, these are the words of God as enunciated through Mohammed, one of them saying that the more you strive towards Me...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: ...the more you love Me, the closer I come to you.

Prabhupada: Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is our philosophy. sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Prema pumartho mahan. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhagavata says that is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him. That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnalam in crude form, like the Christians (indistinct) if they are sane man. I suggested that there are many churches vacant, if they give us these churches, we shall install Deity, Gaurasundara, Nitai-Gaura and Panca-tattva, and along with them we can worship Jesus Christ. Similarly, we can do Mohammed. But they are against this Deity worship. Yes?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Mohammedans?

Guest: Yes, with that sort of expression.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: And yet amongst the Sufi poets there is...

Prabhupada: (indistinct) is also expression, form is also expression.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: But they do not understand.

Guest: But the Sufi's do because the Sufi poets...

Prabhupada: They have got form, worship, the Sufis?

Guest: They don't worship form as such, but they ah, they speak of it in the poetry. They say ah...in one point (indistinct) There is a meeting between (indistinct) and his spiritual master. And he asked the spiritual master (unknown language). I asked, He asked what was this current, this chain of idols that we must worship? And he replied, "So that my heart might, might mourn, lament, the dark night."

Prabhupada: The dark night?

Guest: The dark night of ignorance...

Prabhupada: Oh, darkness.

Guest: ...of separation from God. So that they use the form of expression, worship...

Prabhupada: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man, man to woman. First, otherwise what is the meaning of separation?

Guest: Separation from his divine...

Prabhupada: Yes, then it must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead?

Guest: They believe, the Sufis, see the personality of Ali.

Prabhupada: No, I am not talking of the Sufis, I am talking of the original Islam.

Guest: The Sufis claim to be the original process.

Prabhupada: Do they, all the Muslims accept them?

Devotee 2: There are about 780 different schools of Islam, different ideas they have.

Prabhupada: You have to take the original, otherwise mislead.

Guest: I think the original path must be found in Sufism, it can be because that is the essence...

Prabhupada: If the original path is followed, why it is named Sufism?

Guest: Because there were those who had fallen away from it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: There are those who had fallen away from it. Just as in the Hindu...

Prabhupada: Who has fallen, Islam or the Sufis?

Guest: I think the formalists have fallen away like the jnanis in Hinduism. Just as there is a dispute between the Saivites and the Vaisnavites.

Prabhupada: Who has fallen? The original Islam or the Sufis?

Guest: The Sufis are the original Muslims.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: The Sufis are the original Muslims.

Prabhupada: Sufis or (indistinct).

Devotee: Sufis are the original ah...

Prabhupada: They are original cult?

Devotee: Yes, the Sufis.

Prabhupada: Before Mohammed?

Guest: No, springing from Mohammed.

Prabhupada: Then how you can say it is original.

Guest: Yes, it is original. All the schools of law they develop...

Prabhupada: If it is original, why it is named different?

Guest: Because there are those that have fallen away from it and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use this name for themselves, it's used by others who wish to condemn them.

Prabhupada: What is the meaning of Sufism, literal meaning?

Guest: Well, Sufism in a sense is ah, what bhaktism is in the Hindu context.

Prabhupada: Bhakti means to offer service to God. Does it mean?

Guest: Oh, absolutely!

Prabhupada: Then if God is to be served, then He must be a person, otherwise where is the question of serving?

Guest: Well, the Sufis do see that, the personal aspect of the Lord.

Prabhupada: Unless one is person, how can I serve him? I cannot serve the air or the sky. I must serve a person. Love does not exist in the sky or in the air. There must be a person, man or woman, it doesn't matter. Otherwise, where there is love? Whom to love?

Guest: The Sufis find love in these figures. For example, the Sufis in (indistinct) through the face of a beautiful woman.

Prabhupada: Face of beautiful woman, then the materialists also find.

Guest: It's a material aspect, actually.

Prabhupada: Therefore, Islam religion, (indistinct) reject it (indistinct). As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore, we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apani-pado javano grahita. "He has no legs, no hands." This is denying the form. Next he says, Vedas says, javana grahita. "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means He has, God has, no material form, but He has form, otherwise how He can accept it? How I can understand by love? So, therefore the original Islam the form is not accepted. That is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are, I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form, I am not I am, but what from the form of the body has come into existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand, because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? But the pant practically is not the leg, the real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form, this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within. Asmin dehe. That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there would be no controversy, but they cannot see. Therefore, they say "formless". If it is formless then how the outward form comes about? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hand, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect in the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless.

Guest: God is seen in the form of the saints.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: God is seen in the form of the saints.

Prabhupada: That is another, that is second maybe, but God has got form. That is the conclusion, but we cannot see with the present eyes. That is described, atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [Brs. 1.2.234]. By your, these blunt senses.... Same thing, just like I see you, but I see your body. You see me, my body, and.... But the body is there, and the soul is not there then it is lump of matter and you kick it out, nobody will protest. If a dead body is smashed with your legs or boots, nobody will say (indistinct). But so long the soul is there, if somebody is smashed like that, immediately they will protest. (indistinct). So people have no knowledge about the real form, therefore they say formless.

Devotee: When the body changes, Srila Prabhupada, does that mean that also that the real form changes?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Because the body...

Prabhupada: No, body changes but the spiritual form is the same.

Devotee: He is always the same. How is it that when our coat, size of the coat, changes because the body grows bigger the size of the coat is bigger?

Prabhupada: That is spiritual form. You can take.... It can become bigger, smaller, like that.

Devotee: But the form is the same.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: What is filling the body is consciousness. The consciousness...

Prabhupada: You may have a big coat or small coat, overcoat, the form is the same. But for convenience (indistinct) or small coat. This has been, body has been, described as the dress so the form of the dress cannot be there unless there is form of the person who puts on the dress. How can I deny it? Because the dress has got form, the person who puts on the dress must have form. How can I deny this argument? You cannot say formless. Maybe you cannot see, that is the way, but the person must be form. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are here, they are existing like that in the past, they are now existing, and (indistinct), they will always be (indistinct)."

Guest: Is Krsna.... Can one say that Krsna is the form that presents itself, of Godhead that presents itself to man and Bhagavan is the essential aspect?

Prabhupada: Bhagavan, yes, the original.

Devotee: The same as Krsna.

Prabhupada: Just like the sun. The sunshine is very big, but the sun globe is not so big. But which is the form, the sunshine or the sun globe?

Guest: But its the glow which reaches man because...

Prabhupada: No, these are examples.

Guest: He can't really touch the globe because he would be consumed.

Prabhupada: That is another thing, qualitative change. But if, there are five elements. It is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or sun god's body is made of fire. There are other planets also, the body is made of air. Because you do not find more than these five elementsearth, water, air, fire, sky-gross and subtlemind, intelligence. So, subtle, the same gross, somewhere fire is prominent, somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent, somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent.

Guest: So, there is a distinction between permanent and the eternal?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Prominent.

Guest: Oh, prominent, ah ha.

Devotee: The earth is prominent.

Guest: Ah ha. It's the prominent form in this material world.

Devotee: On this earth, on this planet...

Guest: On this planet.

Devotee: ...earth is prominent amongst the five elements.

Prabhupada: Whole world, whole universe, they are made of these five elements.

Devotee: (indistinct) of the five elements.

Guest: What is the fifth besides earth, air, fire and water?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: What is the fifth element after earth, air, fire and water?

Prabhupada: Ether.

Guest: Ether. How does ether distinguish...?

Prabhupada: Sky. Ether is, presence of ether, by sound.

Guest: How is ether distinct from air?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: How is ether distinct from air?

Prabhupada: Ether you cannot feel touch, (in) air you can feel touch.

Devotee 2: Different sense perceptions. On this planet the bodies are made of earth. But there are other places on the planets, where the physical body is composed of different combinations. Say one is predominately air, another can be fire, another watery.

Guest: But is ether a gross element as well?

Devotee: Space.

Prabhupada: Yes, space.

Devotee 2: It is space.

Guest: So, in that sense it's a gross element.

Prabhupada: Yeah.

Devotee 2: It's perceivable by the senses as sound.

Guest: As sound.

Prabhupada: Ether is perceived by sound. Air is perceived by touch. Then? Ether, air....

Devotee: Fire and water.

Prabhupada: Then fire...

Devotee: You can see.

Prabhupada: You can see by vision. Then next?

Devotee: Water.

Prabhupada: Water, you can taste and the earth you can smell. Five senses to appreciate these five (indistinct) Alright.

Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)