June 10, 1975, Honolulu
Śrutakīrti: ...talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it...
Prabhupāda: The land is there.
Prabhupāda: Land is... Just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava.
Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family?
Prabhupāda: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. [break]
Paramahaṁsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.
Prabhupāda: So śrīmatāṁ, you can get here. Śrīmatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family... But śrīmatāṁ and śucīnāṁ. So if you are creating so many brāhmaṇas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brāhmaṇa family here also. [break]
Śrutakīrti: ...someone had asked me yesterday. You say that the moon is self-luminous. So then... But during the course of the month there are times when only part of the moon is showing. The moon is not always full.
Prabhupāda: Maybe some planet between. Maybe due to sun. So moon is above the sun. Above the sun.
Śrutakīrti: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: Above the clouds?
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...Siddhaloka the residents, men, they also can fly. Siddhaloka. They can go from one planet to another by flying. [break] ...eating, they come down, these birds?
Prabhupāda: For eating?
Siddha-svarūpa: I've never seen them on the ground. I think they might be eating something in the rain. There's actually particles in the rain. Isn't there?
Prabhupāda: There is a bird, cataka. They drink rain water.
Prabhupāda: The example is given, these cataka birds, they want water from the cloud and they will never come down to take water, take water down. Similarly, devotees will simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. They'll not accept anything from this material world. [break] Example is given that sometimes the cloud, instead of giving water, gives thunderbolt. Still, they will not take water from down. That is a cataka. Although it is... Sometimes they are punished—instead of water, they are given thunderbolt—but still, they will not take any.
Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was wondering if it was more important to understand the universal make up or simply to accept what Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says.
Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Rascal, fool. Therefore it is difficult for you.
Prabhupāda: You should not... You understand or not understand, you have to accept it.
Harikeśa: That is why we are asking so many questions about the moon and the planets.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so where is the doubt? It is a fact that they did not go to the moon. That's a fact.
Harikeśa: I'm just trying to understand for preaching purposes.
Prabhupāda: Why do you try to understand?
Harikeśa: Because I have a hard time explaining about the make up of the universe as far as...
Prabhupāda: That make up is all right, what they say?
Harikeśa: What they say?
Prabhupāda: Then don't understand them also, you don't understand here also. Then what you will do?
Siddha-svarūpa: What it is is that we're automatically taking as authoritative what the scientists say, but we don't think is authoritative what Śrīla Prabhupāda and the Bhāgavata is saying.
Harikeśa: Well, the difficulty I was having about this mountain, this Meru. It sounds... It's very difficult to explain that to someone.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is difficult, but everything is difficult for you. Because you want to see. You have not seen their arrangement; neither you have seen our arrangement. So but your proposition is you don't believe what you don't see. You have not seen neither of them, so you have to remain silent.
Harikeśa: So the best position is just remain silent until realization comes?
Prabhupāda: No. You should... Śukadeva Gosvāmī says. You have to believe that. It is an idea. If you believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there; neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no argument.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Or they did not go anywhere. They were in the desert... What is that?
Prabhupāda: Arizona. That's all. That is possible.
Prabhupāda: They are all doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising that.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, they made big propaganda that they would get there, and then they had to succeed. And then they showed that they succeeded, they stopped the program.
Prabhupāda: That one film?
Śrutakīrti: Oh, King Kong. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: King Kong. It was made in laboratory.
Harikeśa: Also 2001 was very expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even better than the moon shots.
Devotee: Someone was arguing with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia achieves something great like going to the moon, America will immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all those things. And because...
Prabhupāda: Then there is also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't expose me. I'll not expose you."
Devotee: So that is their agree... But they are enemies...
Prabhupāda: No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Because if they tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves.
Siddha-svarūpa: It's like these so many gurus. They're not actually enemies. They're actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently, exploiting, then they live peacefully.
Prabhupāda: "Thief, thief, cousin brother." Cora cora, pasura bhai. So far our position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇaloka. So whatever one may say, one other may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet, Jupiter(?) planet.
Harikeśa: So our preaching platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what you say?" We should just prove that we...
Prabhupāda: No, accept or not accept, the whatever is description there, in Bhāgavatam, we are accepted.
Harikeśa: So we should not try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on...
Siddha-svarūpa: Why not speak on what we're trying to speak about instead of overly indulge in that which is beyond debate actually?
Prabhupāda: Just like here in America I have come to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not interested for sight-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say, "It is here like this," "All right, That's all, finished." Why should we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are seeing the other part; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have no interest.
Siddha-svarūpa: The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's...
Prabhupāda: That is useless.
Prabhupāda: What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are lokas.
Harikeśa: So, in other words, it would make no... It would be not a very good program to get some understanding from Vedic astronomy, like, say, some expert Vedic astronomers.
Harikeśa: It would not be a good program...?
Prabhupāda: No, what benefit you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then it is success. We are not going to any other planet. Yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25], let them go. We are not interested in these things.
Siddha-svarūpa: There's only a certain amount of time and a certain amount of..., that we can talk about to people. And if we're talking about so many material arrangements, then it means that we can't be talking about that which is actually important. So we have to make a choice, whether we're going to get straight to the point or beat around the bush. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...no interest in a particular subject, why should you bother your head about it?
Harikeśa: I become very fascinated when I read these descriptions in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about the creation and the universal...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That's gist idea of the universal position. That is sufficient.
Harikeśa: So, in other words, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always bringing Mahārāja Parīkṣit to the platform of "Why bother with all of this? Simply perform devotional service"?
Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no. He's giving full knowledge of the universal affairs. He also says at the end that "I have described whatever I have heard." That's all.
Harikeśa: So we should simply describe it without being concerned that the scientific mind may make sense out of it or not?
Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense scientific? That is... We reject immediately. What is scientific? A tiny brain, what is their science? Phene bare dhake nate ute. A snake catcher... There is a kind of snake which has no poison. So he cannot catch even that non-poisonous snake, and he's trying to catch one cobra. So these scientists, what is their value? What they have done anything contribution to the world for the benefit of the human society? They could not give any relief from the disease, relief from old age, relief from death or birth. These are the real problems. So what is their contribution? They have given some horseless carriage. Again there is problem of power. What is actually benefit they have done, that this is the benefit from the scientists? Anything they have done, there is counter disadvantage. This is simply waste of time. Our... We consider our human life is very valuable, and before the next death we should prepare ourself go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. We cannot waste a minute time before the next death comes. That is our philosophy. So why should we waste our time, "Where is the moon? Where is sun?" Just have it gist idea, that's all. [break] ...no profit. Suppose the position of the moon is correct according to Bhāgavata or according to the scientist, what benefit we shall get out of it? Whichever may be correct or wrong.
Prabhupāda: We are not getting any profit out of it. So why should we bother about it? Adhara vapare jaj akalara. We are dealing in ginger. Then what is the use of asking, "What is the hire, I mean to say, freight for a big ship?" If you are dealing with ginger, ginger is not sold by tons. When you go to purchase ginger, you take one or two pieces. So those who are dealing in ginger, what is the use of asking what is the fare of a freight ship? We are not going to...
Prabhupāda: ...be done by Darwin, that he will live for fifty years; he is giving account millions of years. "Some millions of years after, this evolution takes place like this." Huh? Will he live for millions of years? Why he's talking of millions of years? This is a waste of time. He will live for fifty years or, say, utmost, hundred years, and he's talking of millions of years.
Śrutakīrti: Just like that man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul instead of just accepting it in the Gītā. He's going to spend his whole life.
Prabhupāda: No, no. His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we are changing body?
Paramahaṁsa: So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that.
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.
Paramahaṁsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Not necessary.
Paramahaṁsa: Better if he just...
Prabhupāda: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove...
Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.
Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.
Harikeśa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.
Harikeśa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?
Harikeśa: The findings? They are going to...
Prabhupāda: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul.
Harikeśa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy...
Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform.
Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...
Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably being paid.
Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But actually, that's not true because some...
Prabhupāda: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than transcendental meditation.
Harikeśa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up.
Upendra: No, but this is... Dharmādhyakṣa was... He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahiḥ. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual.
Harikeśa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.
Prabhupāda: What...? What you...?
Siddha-svarūpa: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.
Prabhupāda: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. These rascals, avajānanti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya Samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad..., avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. The paraṁ bhāvam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual..., that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avāṅ mānasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.
Harikeśa: So we shouldn't bother with such tests?
Siddha-svarūpa: By submitting to them we're actually... We're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.
Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"
Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.
Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.
Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta. So aprakṛta is this platform of the soul. Kṛṣṇa's activities, that is aprakṛta, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyakṣa. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyakṣa. Then aparakṣa, accepting the authority's version. Pratyakṣa, parakṣa. Then aparakṣa, then adhokṣaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakṛta, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Kṛṣṇa is understood not by machine. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.
Harikeśa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.
Harikeśa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.
Prabhupāda: No, consciousness means... That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual consciousness.
Harikeśa: So there is no way they can understand. No way.
Prabhupāda: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, "This is perfect." So they're seeing... They're judging whether or not...
Prabhupāda: But we say, "Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense." Mano-rathena sato dhavato bahiḥ.
Harikeśa: So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices.
Prabhupāda: Mind of a devotee is upon Kṛṣṇa. So what they will understand, that mind is in Kṛṣṇa? What they will understand?
Harikeśa: So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or...?
Prabhupāda: It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand.
Harikeśa: That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That's it.
Harikeśa: Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression.
Harikeśa: This expression through the..., it will bewilder them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: See, the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their...
Siddha-svarūpa: ...this is what they're looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn't make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock it also doesn't make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he's more advanced than someone else?
Siddha-svarūpa: You see? They're saying that perfection is no motion. They're saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they're going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they're calling perfection.
Prabhupāda: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.
Harikeśa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.
Harikeśa: Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Harikeśa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this...?
Siddha-svarūpa: But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs)
Harikeśa: But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference.
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion...
Harikeśa: No, they even admit they're bewildered.
Prabhupāda: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." (laughter) So...
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre-concept idea.
Prabhupāda: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia(?). So it is useless.
Paramahaṁsa: In our movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?
Paramahaṁsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.
Paramahaṁsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.
Harikeśa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants.
Prabhupāda: Amoebas, that is automatically... By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances... Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration.
Harikeśa: So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely...
Prabhupāda: Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the Vedas. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name?
Prabhupāda: Just like bugs, bed bugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come.
Harikeśa: So the capability was already there in like seed, and you just watered it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Harikeśa: So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability...
Prabhupāda: But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do.
Harikeśa: But the capability was there and they just watered it. They...
Prabhupāda: What is the capability?
Harikeśa: There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test...
Prabhupāda: Potency, that is potency.
Harikeśa: Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came.
Harikeśa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.
Prabhupāda: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all.
Harikeśa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.
Devotee: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car is here.
Śrutakīrti: The car is...
Harikeśa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kīrtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Harikeśa: And they said, "Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here."
Prabhupāda: So in that way, if they understand, that is good.
Harikeśa: That seemed to be the only way they'll understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying saṅkīrtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying saṅkīrtana?" That is already their problem, another, that "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study. [break]
Harikeśa: ...one place in Caitanya-caritāmṛta where Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja says that "You mental speculators, put your speculation to Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He says something like that. If you were to speculate, speculate about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the greatness of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: I don't think there is anything.
Harikeśa: Maybe I'm misquoting.
Prabhupāda: Caitanyer dayār kathā kara vicāra: "Just analyze the merciful contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu with others." That you have already experienced, that they experimented in so many ways, but as soon as they come to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, saṅkīrtana, they become immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest thing." So that is vicāra, judgement. Caitanyer dayār kathā. There are many contribution of the world, many scientists, many physiologists, many... But Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, "Compare with the contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then you will be surprised." Oh! Just like they became surprised, immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest." That is stated by Kavirāja Gosvāmī, that "The merciful contribution given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu-compare with any other contribution of the world, scientist, physiologist and this and that. You will see this is the best." Caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicāra. [break] (Prabhupāda talking with someone in Bengali about different types of dahl) [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: ...experiments that these... I know of the experiments that these men are doing. They're connected... They have gone to the Buddhists. They've gone to Buddhist monks and various people that are into voidism, and they've made these tests, and it comes out that there's no activity. So they're seeing this as being the goal. They're trying to see if the same perfection, result of perfection, is achieved by the chanting. They already have a preconceived notion of what perfection is, and if they're testing to see if...
Prabhupāda: To that standard.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, if we're up to that standard of perfection of the Buddhist monks or the Zen monks or transcendental meditators or whatever. So I think it's a very bad thing to take part in that thing.
Siddha-svarūpa: Because they'll simply try to... Anyway, it's... [break] Sometimes because these people have big titles like psychologist or professor and they have many machines and authoritative looking instruments, we become deceived into thinking that they are authorities of some sort, and we let them dictate to us. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...do not study that why these devotees have given up intoxication, which the government failed to stop?
Prabhupāda: It is practical.
Prabhupāda: Why these devotee, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items, the government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology?
Prabhupāda: Well, they no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. [break] ...imāni bhūtāni bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical."
Prabhupāda: Why do they not inject chemical in the dead body? Harikeśa? What is their answer, these rascals' answers? If they know it is out of chemical, then inject that chemical in the dead body and let him come back again in life. What do they say?
Harikeśa: They're a little puzzled about that one.
Prabhupāda: Puzzled means they are rascals. Why a scientist should be puzzled? Then you are rascal, admit it. If I know my business correct, why shall I be puzzled? That means rascal. You are rascal, and you are theorizing only. What is the value of your statement?
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually, the chemicals are already there in a body which has just, someone has just left the body, the soul has just left, all the chemicals are there. There's nothing missing.
Harikeśa: Well, they will say there's a slight difference and that slight difference is enough.
Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is that slight difference.
Prabhupāda: If the chemical is missing you can replace the chemical.
Harikeśa: Yes, there's just a slight difference with some of the chemicals...
Prabhupāda: What is that difference? That also you cannot explain.
Harikeśa: Well they haven't found it yet.
Prabhupāda: Well, that's it still they are talking of chemical... They did not find what is the original cause; still, they are suggesting this is the cause.
Harikeśa: Because they are finding so many cures to diseases, they are trying now...
Prabhupāda: What the disease? What they have...? Have they found any cure for the cancer?
Harikeśa: For certain diseases they are...
Prabhupāda: Certain diseases. Then we are calling of disease.
Ambarīṣa: There's always new diseases though.
Ambarīṣa: For every old disease they find a cure for, there are..., a new disease.
Prabhupāda: No cure. They simply find out... They say, "It is better medicine," but it is not cured. What disease they have cured? What... Name particular disease, "This disease is cured."
Harikeśa: Well, they have some smallpox vaccine, and no one gets smallpox any more.
Prabhupāda: Yes, does it mean smallpox is stopped all over the world?
Harikeśa: It's very much cut down. There's hardly any smallpox...
Prabhupāda: Very much cut down, but it's very much increasing in another side.
Harikeśa: In America there's no smallpox. So that means here...
Prabhupāda: That is all right. It is due to poverty, uncleanliness. So that is known to everyone. The smallpox takes place amongst the poorer class, unclean class. In India also, that is there. No gentleman's house, there is smallpox. Only these lower class, unclean.
Prabhupāda: If you remain unclean, all diseases will come. Where is the cure?
Harikeśa: They also have this thing where they're freezing bodies just before they die.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense.
Harikeśa: Later on, they will unthaw them...
Prabhupāda: Later on.
Harikeśa: ...when they find the cure and cure it.
Prabhupāda: Everything, "Later on. Wait. Take this post-dated check." "And where is money, sir?" "Wait. You have got the check. That's all right."
Devotee: The scientists who are saying that they're going to do this, they'll be also in the same position after some years.
Siddha-svarūpa: Right, they're promising this person they freezed that "We will thaw you out later," but they cannot even promise themself that they won't die that night in a car accident or die from some disease themselves. So how can they promise that "In a while we will thaw you out"? They're simply cheating the people.
Prabhupāda: Why it is congested today?
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, we came a little late, it's rush hour. All the people that live on that side of the island work on that side of the island. So they have to drive over every morning. And we happened to get the work hour traffic because we left a little late.
Harikeśa: They are turning Hawaii into New York City.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, they're making it very difficult. They're going to develop this entire side of the island more and more, and so that they're taking agriculture land, and they'll be building subdivisions and people from the mainland will be moving, living in condominiums on this island.
Prabhupāda: That means for one convenience, they create another inconvenience.
Prabhupāda: This is the business. In this way they will take three hours to go to the other side.
Prabhupāda: ...photo must be there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, here's his, his photograph is also on this round bucket. He puts his photograph on the bucket.
Prabhupāda: He has become a very big man.
Prabhupāda: By killing chickens.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. He actually is beginning to look like a chicken, his face. He's actually starting to look like a chicken.
Ambarīṣa: He claims he is a very religious man too.
Prabhupāda: This is the sample of religious man. And what is irreligious? If the religious men kill so many chickens daily, then what is the irreligious man do?
Prabhupāda: He kills the chicken and fry it in oil. And that is sold.
Ambarīṣa: He's also very involved in politics.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He's a politician also?
Ambarīṣa: Yeah. At the Democratic convention he supplies all the politicians with unlimited fried chicken.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: He also sells, I think. But this other chain of restaurants, McDonald's, they are very proud. They announce how many hamburgers they have sold. They have branches everywhere in the world.
Prabhupāda: Hamburger means?
Siddha-svarūpa: Uh, that's beef. They kill the cows in a unbelievable, at an unbelievable rate, the number of cows they're killing for their meat.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...up? No?
Devotee: I think up to now they have sold 200,000,000 hamburgers or something like that.
Prabhupāda: You also keep account?
Devotee: No, they put that ad in every day.
Ambarīṣa: You can't avoid seeing it.
Devotee: In front of their shop it's always there.
Siddha-svarūpa: "We have killed this many." They are also trying to connect themselves with patriotism and religion. They have, at all of their restaurants, they have the American flag flying along with the McDonald's flag. They have their own flag, McDonald's. So they fly alongside the American flag. [break]
Ambarīṣa: I heard once that human beings in the modes of goodness were coming from the cow family or from the cows mostly? If there are so many cows being killed, why aren't there more people in the modes of goodness?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Now, after the... There are three sources: cow, monkey, and lion. This is the last animal life.
Prabhupāda: Why not go a little...
Prabhupāda: Yes, beach park. Oh, you have to stop.
Prabhupāda: ...cow which is killed, that does not get immediately human life because he is untimely killed.
Ambarīṣa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again?
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable. [break]
Devotee: ...Kamehameha Day, today?
Prabhupāda: Here, for chanting? A good hall? [break]
Paramahaṁsa: Is that a shark? That big fish... See that big fish, Prabhupāda? That big one on the wall? He is hanging?
Prabhupāda: Oh, he is dead?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, dead fish. That's a shark.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...they're kept for sale?
Siddha-svarūpa: Well, no. It's a very strange thing. They just show everybody. They capture them and show everybody what they look like. The public pays 25 cents to go see what it looks like. [break]
Prabhupāda: For aircraft killing?
Prabhupāda: Oh. American or enemy's captured?
Siddha-svarūpa: When I was a young boy, we would play with my friends. We would stand on this and try to knock each other off, push each other off the cannon.
Prabhupāda: It can be... No.
Prabhupāda: It is from the last world war? [break] ...far it goes?
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...such cannons are meant for killing aircraft. [break] ...London blitz, blitz, they were attacking from aircraft and from ground also, simultaneously. [break] ...beginning, they were conquering over Belgium and neighboring... Morning, one country, and evening, one country.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is the name of somebody?
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...Hawaiian queen?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, there are Philippines here?
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break]
Śrutakīrti: That was the sound of peacocks.
Śrutakīrti: Just over here somewhere.
Devotee: That's a zoo over there.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...on the pathway there was sometimes tree. They do not cut it. [break] ...very rare there. It is dried firmly? It is dried up?
Devotee: Not all of them. Little bit dried and like that. So sometimes one of those, Kanva and other devotees, have been suggesting to put fruit trees instead of this kind of trees. Can we cut them?
Devotee: No, we should not. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...it is absolutely necessary. [break] ...develop.
Prabhupāda: Hawaii, yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Now they are still here or they have left?
Siddha-svarūpa: They are here, but they've mixed up with other races. There's many mixture in races. And most of the local people who live here, they're a mixture of Hawaiian, Japanese... [break]
Prabhupāda: Then everything will go on nice.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, the people will have someone to look up to at least. They'll know which way to go. [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, and so then they become, the people become very frustrated because the leaders they're trying to look up to, they find out they're crooks, and it ruins their... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. [break] These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brāhmaṇas, guided by the brāhmaṇas, and they would do nicely. [break] ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them.
Prabhupāda: This is the position. [break] ...not making kachori?
Prabhupāda: Well, I have to ask for it? [break]
Prabhupāda: ...planet with so many oceans and mountains, that is floating in the air. The whole thing is working. And these rascals want to compete with Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Prabhupāda: He believed in God.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. And he had made a replica. He had made a small replica of the universe with all the planets floating and so on. He had made a small replica, and it was sitting in his house. And his assistant came one day, his atheist assistant, he came and he says, "Oh, who has made this wonderful replica of the universe?" And Sir Isaac Newton, who was sitting there reading, he says, "Oh, no one." And the man said, "What do you mean no one?" He says... He didn't look up. He just says, "No one made it." And he kept reading and the guy, the assistant, the atheist, he became very perturbed. He kept saying, "What do you mean, you fool? Obviously somebody made it. He must have great intelligence, and I'd like to meet the fellow who created this." And Sir Isaac Newton put down his book and says, "My friend, this is but a small replica of the universe, and you're the one who is always declaring that no one has created the universe. And now you're declaring to me that somebody must have created that. I'm saying it just happened, but you don't believe me. So how can I accept your logic when you say that all of this just happened?" [break]
Prabhupāda: ...temple is very nice. [break] ...is also very nice.
Prabhupāda: ...lunch time.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. [break] ...the location also. That's a very good location they have, on the main road.
Prabhupāda: ...injunction, apāṇi-pado javano grahīta, is, "He, the God, has no leg, no hand, but He accepts gift." "Accepts gift," means He has got hand, but why it is said, "No leg, no hand"? That means He has no material hand and leg. He has His hands and legs, but that is spiritual. That is the meaning. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is made of spiritual eternity... This body is not eternal. But God has got His eternal body. There is no question of God's becoming old. Because His body is eternal. It is the material body which is not eternal. That is subjected to old age, disease, birth, death. What is this big house? [break] ...stated that he came to cheat the atheists. They did not believe in God, but God came as Buddha.
Prabhupāda: And he said, "Yes, you are right. There is no God."
Prabhupāda: They were satisfied, "Yes, we shall worship you." [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: The so-called more advanced ones, the teachers, the leaders, the monks, they have a more difficult time because they are, have actually further studied the impersonalist philosophies, so they are more contaminated, whereas the congregation in general, they just, they don't take very seriously the philosophy. They don't get too deeply into it, I don't think. They just like to go to the temple and offer some incense to Lord Buddha and... [break] ...Govinda Restaurant, hungry... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...chanting, dancing. So this will rectify his philosophy. Chanting is so strong, it will send all philosophy to hell. (laughter) Vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. [break] You will come out triumphant of all others. [break] ...that is happening. What we are doing? We are not playing any magic. How this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is increasing?
Devotee: Yesterday I read in the newspaper that Indira Gandhi has been asked to step down from the prime ministership.
Prabhupāda: I heard it. Where is that paper?
Devotee: I'll try to get a paper. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...body comes in her place he will be another.
Devotee: Yes. [break] ...to step down, she's going to defy the court order.
Prabhupāda: Like Nixon, like Nixon. [break]
Prabhupāda: What is that security?
Prabhupāda: And there was no necessity. Still, we shall go. It is very pleasant. [break] One umbrella, if you push, it will open, and if you push down, it will come back. Machine. [break] ...mantra is described in the śāstra just like a potential medicine. If you take it, either you know it or not know it, it will act. And another example is given. Just like fire. If one, the father knows, "This is fire," and throws to the grass, it will be burned. Similarly, if a child—he does not know what it is—if he throws, then that will also burn. [break]
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prabhupāda: New York is still doubtful.
Ambarīṣa: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: But that's a good house, New York?
Ambarīṣa: The one that they have or the one that they're trying to buy? [break]
Prabhupāda: They are trying to buy. Did he send them letter by lawyer?
Ambarīṣa: No, I haven't... No, my lawyer called... [break]
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...another duplicate Pacific?
Prabhupāda: Is it not possible?
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That also not possible. [break] ...let them drop this atom bomb and ruin it.
Prabhupāda: ...ship? What is that?
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Is there any fruit?
Prabhupāda: [break] ...date.
Prabhupāda: ...is very nice.
Prabhupāda: ...movement, then that is nice.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, They, the mystic yogis... [break] ...Cambodia and Vietnam. Now Cambodia and Vietnam are fighting.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Why?
Siddha-svarūpa: Over the oil on the offshore. There is offshore oil. The oil that the United Stated wanted. Now these two are fighting off some islands that are... There's a wars... Wars are... [break]
Prabhupāda: Simply rogues. [break] There is light engaged. [break] They understood. Because when Kaṁsa was baffled in killing the children of his sister, he regretted that "I have killed so many children of you, my dear sister. I am awaiting the most abominable hellish conditions." He admitted. [break]
Ambarīṣa: ...don't know what good and bad is. They think if you don't kill anybody that you will go to heaven. I mean any human being.
Siddha-svarūpa: But they think that this is only one? They do accept that there's life after this life and that they will live either in heavenly planets...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? They believe it.
Prabhupāda: What is, the Bible says, "Come to kingdom of God"?
Prabhupāda: So if you have no next life, how you are going to there?
Prabhupāda: Then that is... Another life means soul.
Prabhupāda: They have no clear knowledge. That is their... [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: They are called Mormons. They have very big temples. They build very big temples still.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Is there any Deity?
Siddha-svarūpa: They don't let anyone in the temple. It is for secret membership... It is for the... Only if you become a secret member or something. I do not know what they have in there. I think what they have in there is copies of their scripture that were on golden...
Ambarīṣa: Book of Mormon.
Ambarīṣa: They have a gold Jesus deity.
Siddha-svarūpa: They do. They worship Jesus. But they clearly accept that one, that the person is separate from his body, the soul is different than the body, that we are not flesh, that we are spirit.
Ambarīṣa: They have very strict disciplines too.
Siddha-svarūpa: And they accept that God is a person, that Jesus is the son of the Supreme Person. They even use the word, "Supreme Person, Supreme Personality." So in that way they are in conflict with...
Prabhupāda: That God is separate from Jesus?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that He is the father of Jesus. They make long arguments to show their point, that God is one with Jesus as father and son, not as two persons the same person. And they also have fairly strict... They have strict principles, but the people don't follow them very well.
Ambarīṣa: A lot of the young people do. Like I live around Salt Lake, and there's a lot of Mormons there and there's a lot that... [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: ...we can become creators of a universe and be in charge of our own universe. They are hopeful for that. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...in Bhāgavata also that after passing one hundred life of first-class karmī one can become Brahmā. And after becoming Brahmā, he goes directly back to home, back to Godhead. [break] ...this dissolution, Brahmā hasn't got to die. By the same body he goes. [break] All the inhabitants of Brahmaloka they also go with Brahmā. [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: ...have sex outside of marriage, any of these activities. And they're not supposed to eat meat unless it's in time of famine or absolute necessity. They have a whole city. It's called Salt Lake City in Utaḥ that's all practically their followers. [break]
Ambarīṣa: In Salt Lake City they don't have bars.
Siddha-svarūpa: There's no bars in the city of Salt Lake. There's no drinking establishments or pornographic movies and these things.
Prabhupāda: So when they started?
Ambarīṣa: I don't know when they found those documents. A lot of them are still secret. They won't... A lot of them are like books about what's going to happen in the future, and they keep them somewhere. [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: ...system of having more than one wife, that a holy person or religious man had the duty to take on and give protection to more than one woman because there weren't enough righteous men and there were more women that needed protection than there were righteous men. So if there was a righteous man, it was his duty to protect more than one wife. But nowadays I think they are having some trouble keeping that in the United States. That is one thing the Christians became very... [break]
Devotee: Yes, that's... [break]
Ambarīṣa: Bali and I were discussing that the other day. Bali-mardana and I. Maybe when I come back here to live, maybe after Christmas, he and I, we'll see if we can work out... He knows some people that are in the movie business.
Prabhupāda: Actors, we shall play. They haven't got to pay for us.
Ambarīṣa: They could be run on T.V. too.
Siddha-svarūpa: Have a series. [break] ...not to continue or make any impression. And that will necessitate very good acting, not slapstick comedy. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...not professional. [break] ...men can be trained up—that is possible—to play. We require professional director. Money may be spent by the movie company. And we give our men an idea. [break]
Ambarīṣa: 'Cause they have made many great religious pictures, big epics about Jesus and stuff like that. So maybe they would be open to the idea of doing the Bhagavad-gītā. That would be nice. [break]
Siddha-svarūpa: I mentioned to you something about making a movie of Bhagavad-gītā. You said it would be very difficult to find fifty thousand elephants. (laughs) There will be some... [break] ...Kṛṣṇa-līlā will be easier. He can be fighting one demon or dancing with the gopīs. Bhagavad-gītā is... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...do not understand the existence of soul, then why do they say, "My head, my hand"? Why not say, "I head." What is their answer? Why do you say, "My head"?
Prabhupāda: That is the folly.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion. Unless one understands, then he does not understand the transmigration of the soul. (end)