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750610mw.hon
Morning Walk
June 10, 1975, Honolulu Srutakirti: ...talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dasi, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaisnavas there. So what is it...
Prabhupada: The land is there.
Srutakirti: Yes.
Prabhupada: Land is... Just like this land, Vaisnava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaisnavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaisnavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaisnava.
Paramahamsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brahmana family?
Prabhupada: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41]. This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Krsna is there. Krsna is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Krsna comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vrndavana. So in that Vrndavana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vrndavana. [break]
Paramahamsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Krsna consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So srimatam, you can get here. Srimatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family... But srimatam and sucinam. So if you are creating so many brahmanas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brahmana family here also. [break]
Srutakirti: ...someone had asked me yesterday. You say that the moon is self-luminous. So then... But during the course of the month there are times when only part of the moon is showing. The moon is not always full.
Prabhupada: Maybe some planet between. Maybe due to sun. So moon is above the sun. Above the sun.
Srutakirti: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Oh.
Prabhupada: Above the clouds?
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...Siddhaloka the residents, men, they also can fly. Siddhaloka. They can go from one planet to another by flying. [break] ...eating, they come down, these birds?
Prabhupada: For eating?
Siddha-svarupa: I've never seen them on the ground. I think they might be eating something in the rain. There's actually particles in the rain. Isn't there?
Prabhupada: There is a bird, cataka. They drink rain water.
Prabhupada: The example is given, these cataka birds, they want water from the cloud and they will never come down to take water, take water down. Similarly, devotees will simply depend on Krsna. They'll not accept anything from this material world. [break] Example is given that sometimes the cloud, instead of giving water, gives thunderbolt. Still, they will not take water from down. That is a cataka. Although it is... Sometimes they are punishedinstead of water, they are given thunderboltbut still, they will not take any.
Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada, I was wondering if it was more important to understand the universal make up or simply to accept what Srimad-Bhagavatam says.
Prabhupada: That means you don't accept Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Harikesa: No. But some of the things in Srimad-Bhagavatam are difficult to understand.
Prabhupada: Rascal, fool. Therefore it is difficult for you.
Harikesa: Yes.
Prabhupada: You should not... You understand or not understand, you have to accept it.
Harikesa: That is why we are asking so many questions about the moon and the planets.
Prabhupada: Yes, so where is the doubt? It is a fact that they did not go to the moon. That's a fact.
Harikesa: I'm just trying to understand for preaching purposes.
Prabhupada: Why do you try to understand?
Harikesa: Because I have a hard time explaining about the make up of the universe as far as...
Prabhupada: That make up is all right, what they say?
Harikesa: What they say?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: No.
Prabhupada: Then don't understand them also, you don't understand here also. Then what you will do?
Siddha-svarupa: What it is is that we're automatically taking as authoritative what the scientists say, but we don't think is authoritative what Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavata is saying.
Harikesa: Well, the difficulty I was having about this mountain, this Meru. It sounds... It's very difficult to explain that to someone.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is difficult, but everything is difficult for you. Because you want to see. You have not seen their arrangement; neither you have seen our arrangement. So but your proposition is you don't believe what you don't see. You have not seen neither of them, so you have to remain silent.
Harikesa: So the best position is just remain silent until realization comes?
Prabhupada: No. You should... Sukadeva Gosvami says. You have to believe that. It is an idea. If you believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there; neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no argument.
Harikesa: No.
Prabhupada: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or they did not go anywhere. They were in the desert... What is that?
Devotees: Arizona.
Prabhupada: Arizona. That's all. That is possible.
Prabhupada: They are all doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising that.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, they made big propaganda that they would get there, and then they had to succeed. And then they showed that they succeeded, they stopped the program.
Prabhupada: That one film?
Srutakirti: Oh, King Kong. (laughter)
Prabhupada: King Kong. It was made in laboratory.
Harikesa: Also 2001 was very expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even better than the moon shots.
Devotee: Someone was arguing with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia achieves something great like going to the moon, America will immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all those things. And because...
Prabhupada: Then there is also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't expose me. I'll not expose you."
Devotee: So that is their agree... But they are enemies...
Prabhupada: No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.
Paramahamsa: Because if they tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves.
Siddha-svarupa: It's like these so many gurus. They're not actually enemies. They're actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently, exploiting, then they live peacefully.
Prabhupada: "Thief, thief, cousin brother." Cora cora, pasura bhai. So far our position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe. We are concerned with Krsnaloka. So whatever one may say, one other may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet, Jupiter(?) planet.
Harikesa: So our preaching platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what you say?" We should just prove that we...
Prabhupada: No, accept or not accept, the whatever is description there, in Bhagavatam, we are accepted.
Harikesa: So we should not try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Siddha-svarupa: Why not speak on what we're trying to speak about instead of overly indulge in that which is beyond debate actually?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like here in America I have come to preach Krsna consciousness. I am not interested for sight-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say, "It is here like this," "All right, That's all, finished." Why should we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are seeing the other part; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have no interest.
Siddha-svarupa: The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's...
Prabhupada: That is useless.
Prabhupada: What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are lokas.
Harikesa: So, in other words, it would make no... It would be not a very good program to get some understanding from Vedic astronomy, like, say, some expert Vedic astronomers.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: It would not be a good program...?
Prabhupada: No, what benefit you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you can remember Krsna, then it is success. We are not going to any other planet. Yanti deva-vrata devan [Bg. 9.25], let them go. We are not interested in these things.
Siddha-svarupa: There's only a certain amount of time and a certain amount of..., that we can talk about to people. And if we're talking about so many material arrangements, then it means that we can't be talking about that which is actually important. So we have to make a choice, whether we're going to get straight to the point or beat around the bush. [break]
Prabhupada: ...no interest in a particular subject, why should you bother your head about it?
Harikesa: I become very fascinated when I read these descriptions in Srimad-Bhagavatam about the creation and the universal...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's gist idea of the universal position. That is sufficient.
Harikesa: So, in other words, Sukadeva Gosvami is always bringing Maharaja Pariksit to the platform of "Why bother with all of this? Simply perform devotional service"?
Prabhupada: Huh? No, no. He's giving full knowledge of the universal affairs. He also says at the end that "I have described whatever I have heard." That's all.
Harikesa: So we should simply describe it without being concerned that the scientific mind may make sense out of it or not?
Prabhupada: What is this nonsense scientific? That is... We reject immediately. What is scientific? A tiny brain, what is their science? Phene bare dhake nate ute. A snake catcher... There is a kind of snake which has no poison. So he cannot catch even that non-poisonous snake, and he's trying to catch one cobra. So these scientists, what is their value? What they have done anything contribution to the world for the benefit of the human society? They could not give any relief from the disease, relief from old age, relief from death or birth. These are the real problems. So what is their contribution? They have given some horseless carriage. Again there is problem of power. What is actually benefit they have done, that this is the benefit from the scientists? Anything they have done, there is counter disadvantage. This is simply waste of time. Our... We consider our human life is very valuable, and before the next death we should prepare ourself go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. We cannot waste a minute time before the next death comes. That is our philosophy. So why should we waste our time, "Where is the moon? Where is sun?" Just have it gist idea, that's all. [break] ...no profit. Suppose the position of the moon is correct according to Bhagavata or according to the scientist, what benefit we shall get out of it? Whichever may be correct or wrong.
Prabhupada: We are not getting any profit out of it. So why should we bother about it? Adhara vapare jaj akalara. We are dealing in ginger. Then what is the use of asking, "What is the hire, I mean to say, freight for a big ship?" If you are dealing with ginger, ginger is not sold by tons. When you go to purchase ginger, you take one or two pieces. So those who are dealing in ginger, what is the use of asking what is the fare of a freight ship? We are not going to...
Prabhupada: ...be done by Darwin, that he will live for fifty years; he is giving account millions of years. "Some millions of years after, this evolution takes place like this." Huh? Will he live for millions of years? Why he's talking of millions of years? This is a waste of time. He will live for fifty years or, say, utmost, hundred years, and he's talking of millions of years.
Srutakirti: Just like that man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul instead of just accepting it in the Gita. He's going to spend his whole life.
Prabhupada: No, no. His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we are changing body?
Paramahamsa: So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that.
Prabhupada: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.
Paramahamsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Krsna conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?
Prabhupada: Not necessary. Not necessary.
Paramahamsa: Better if he just...
Prabhupada: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Krsna conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Krsna.
Harikesa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: Can a material calculation prove...
Prabhupada: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.
Harikesa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.
Prabhupada: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.
Harikesa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: The findings? They are going to...
Prabhupada: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul.
Harikesa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy...
Prabhupada: The psychology is on the mental platform.
Harikesa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikesa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...
Prabhupada: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikesa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Srutakirti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikesa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupada: So why do they agree to?
Harikesa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupada: Forced?
Harikesa: Yes.
Srutakirti: They're probably being paid.
Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Krsna, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation.
Harikesa: But actually, that's not true because some...
Prabhupada: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than transcendental meditation.
Harikesa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up.
Upendra: No, but this is... Dharmadhyaksa was... He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Krsna consciousness. Dharmadhyaksa, at least, and Guru dasa said so I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.
Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahih. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual.
Harikesa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.
Prabhupada: What...? What you...?
Siddha-svarupa: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.
Prabhupada: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gita, avajananti mam mudha. These rascals, avajananti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Krsna, "Oh, Krsna is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya Samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad..., avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam, param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. The param bhavam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual..., that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avan manasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.
Harikesa: So we shouldn't bother with such tests?
Prabhupada: No.
Siddha-svarupa: By submitting to them we're actually... We're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.
Prabhupada: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"
Harikesa: This psychologist has become a devotee.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.
Harikesa: But still he wants to try and prove Krsna consciousness through this psychological testing.
Prabhupada: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Prabhupada: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati (Mundaka Upanisad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyaksa, paraksa, aparaksa, adhoksaja, aprakrta. So aprakrta is this platform of the soul. Krsna's activities, that is aprakrta, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyaksa. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyaksa. Then aparaksa, accepting the authority's version. Pratyaksa, paraksa. Then aparaksa, then adhoksaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakrta, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Krsna is understood not by machine. Krsna says, bhaktya mam abhijanati: [Bg. 18.55] "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.
Harikesa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.
Prabhupada: No, consciousness means... That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Krsna consciousness is spiritual consciousness.
Harikesa: So there is no way they can understand. No way.
Prabhupada: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, "This is perfect." So they're seeing... They're judging whether or not...
Prabhupada: But we say, "Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense." Mano-rathena sato dhavato bahih.
Harikesa: So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices.
Prabhupada: Mind of a devotee is upon Krsna. So what they will understand, that mind is in Krsna? What they will understand?
Harikesa: So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or...?
Prabhupada: It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand.
Harikesa: That's a fact.
Prabhupada: Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That's it.
Harikesa: Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: This expression through the..., it will bewilder them.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Siddha-svarupa: See, the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is their...
Siddha-svarupa: ...this is what they're looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn't make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock it also doesn't make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he's more advanced than someone else?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Siddha-svarupa: You see? They're saying that perfection is no motion. They're saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they're going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they're calling perfection.
Prabhupada: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvana. Nirvana, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.
Harikesa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: Because they are bewilderedthey will see the conclusions, they are bewilderedthey will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Harikesa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this...?
Siddha-svarupa: But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs)
Harikesa: But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference.
Siddha-svarupa: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion...
Harikesa: No, they even admit they're bewildered.
Prabhupada: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." (laughter) So...
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada...
Prabhupada: They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre-concept idea.
Prabhupada: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia(?). So it is useless.
Paramahamsa: In our movement, Srila Prabhupada, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Paramahamsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.
Paramahamsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?
Prabhupada: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.
Harikesa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants.
Prabhupada: Amoebas, that is automatically... By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances... Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration.
Harikesa: So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely...
Prabhupada: Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the Vedas. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name?
Prabhupada: Just like bugs, bed bugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come.
Harikesa: So the capability was already there in like seed, and you just watered it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Harikesa: So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability...
Prabhupada: But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do.
Harikesa: But the capability was there and they just watered it. They...
Prabhupada: What is the capability?
Harikesa: There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test...
Prabhupada: Potency, that is potency.
Harikesa: Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.
Prabhupada: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all.
Prabhupada: Yoga?
Harikesa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.
Devotee: This way, Srila Prabhupada. The car is here.
Srutakirti: The car is...
Harikesa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kirtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Harikesa: And they said, "Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here."
Prabhupada: So in that way, if they understand, that is good.
Harikesa: That seemed to be the only way they'll understand.
Siddha-svarupa: So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.
Prabhupada: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying sankirtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying sankirtana?" That is already their problem, another, that "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study. [break]
Harikesa: ...one place in Caitanya-caritamrta where Krsnadasa Kaviraja says that "You mental speculators, put your speculation to Caitanya Mahaprabhu." He says something like that. If you were to speculate, speculate about Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the greatness of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Prabhupada: I don't think there is anything.
Harikesa: Maybe I'm misquoting.
Harikesa: Analyze?
Prabhupada: Caitanyer dayar katha kara vicara: "Just analyze the merciful contribution of Caitanya Mahaprabhu with others." That you have already experienced, that they experimented in so many ways, but as soon as they come to Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, sankirtana, they become immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest thing." So that is vicara, judgement. Caitanyer dayar katha. There are many contribution of the world, many scientists, many physiologists, many... But Kaviraja Gosvami says, "Compare with the contribution of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you will be surprised." Oh! Just like they became surprised, immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest." That is stated by Kaviraja Gosvami, that "The merciful contribution given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu-compare with any other contribution of the world, scientist, physiologist and this and that. You will see this is the best." Caitanyer dayar katha karaha vicara. [break] (Prabhupada talking with someone in Bengali about different types of dahl) [break]
Siddha-svarupa: ...experiments that these... I know of the experiments that these men are doing. They're connected... They have gone to the Buddhists. They've gone to Buddhist monks and various people that are into voidism, and they've made these tests, and it comes out that there's no activity. So they're seeing this as being the goal. They're trying to see if the same perfection, result of perfection, is achieved by the chanting. They already have a preconceived notion of what perfection is, and if they're testing to see if...
Prabhupada: To that standard.
Siddha-svarupa: Yeah, if we're up to that standard of perfection of the Buddhist monks or the Zen monks or transcendental meditators or whatever. So I think it's a very bad thing to take part in that thing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Siddha-svarupa: Because they'll simply try to... Anyway, it's... [break] Sometimes because these people have big titles like psychologist or professor and they have many machines and authoritative looking instruments, we become deceived into thinking that they are authorities of some sort, and we let them dictate to us. [break]
Prabhupada: ...do not study that why these devotees have given up intoxication, which the government failed to stop?
Prabhupada: It is practical.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Why these devotee, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items, the government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Krsna consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology?
Prabhupada: Well, they no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. [break] ...imani bhutani bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical."
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Then?
Prabhupada: Why do they not inject chemical in the dead body? Harikesa? What is their answer, these rascals' answers? If they know it is out of chemical, then inject that chemical in the dead body and let him come back again in life. What do they say?
Harikesa: They're a little puzzled about that one.
Prabhupada: Puzzled means they are rascals. Why a scientist should be puzzled? Then you are rascal, admit it. If I know my business correct, why shall I be puzzled? That means rascal. You are rascal, and you are theorizing only. What is the value of your statement?
Siddha-svarupa: Actually, the chemicals are already there in a body which has just, someone has just left the body, the soul has just left, all the chemicals are there. There's nothing missing.
Harikesa: Well, they will say there's a slight difference and that slight difference is enough.
Prabhupada: But you do not know what is that slight difference.
Prabhupada: If the chemical is missing you can replace the chemical.
Harikesa: Yes, there's just a slight difference with some of the chemicals...
Prabhupada: What is that difference? That also you cannot explain.
Harikesa: Well they haven't found it yet.
Prabhupada: Well, that's it still they are talking of chemical... They did not find what is the original cause; still, they are suggesting this is the cause.
Harikesa: Because they are finding so many cures to diseases, they are trying now...
Prabhupada: What the disease? What they have...? Have they found any cure for the cancer?
Harikesa: For certain diseases they are...
Prabhupada: Certain diseases. Then we are calling of disease.
Ambarisa: There's always new diseases though.
Ambarisa: For every old disease they find a cure for, there are..., a new disease.
Prabhupada: No cure. They simply find out... They say, "It is better medicine," but it is not cured. What disease they have cured? What... Name particular disease, "This disease is cured."
Harikesa: Well, they have some smallpox vaccine, and no one gets smallpox any more.
Prabhupada: Yes, does it mean smallpox is stopped all over the world?
Harikesa: It's very much cut down. There's hardly any smallpox...
Prabhupada: Very much cut down, but it's very much increasing in another side.
Harikesa: In America there's no smallpox. So that means here...
Prabhupada: That is all right. It is due to poverty, uncleanliness. So that is known to everyone. The smallpox takes place amongst the poorer class, unclean class. In India also, that is there. No gentleman's house, there is smallpox. Only these lower class, unclean.
Prabhupada: If you remain unclean, all diseases will come. Where is the cure?
Harikesa: They also have this thing where they're freezing bodies just before they die.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense.
Harikesa: Later on, they will unthaw them...
Prabhupada: Later on.
Harikesa: ...when they find the cure and cure it.
Prabhupada: Everything, "Later on. Wait. Take this post-dated check." "And where is money, sir?" "Wait. You have got the check. That's all right."
Devotee: The scientists who are saying that they're going to do this, they'll be also in the same position after some years.
Siddha-svarupa: Right, they're promising this person they freezed that "We will thaw you out later," but they cannot even promise themself that they won't die that night in a car accident or die from some disease themselves. So how can they promise that "In a while we will thaw you out"? They're simply cheating the people.
Prabhupada: Why it is congested today?
Siddha-svarupa: Well, we came a little late, it's rush hour. All the people that live on that side of the island work on that side of the island. So they have to drive over every morning. And we happened to get the work hour traffic because we left a little late.
Harikesa: They are turning Hawaii into New York City.
Siddha-svarupa: Yeah, they're making it very difficult. They're going to develop this entire side of the island more and more, and so that they're taking agriculture land, and they'll be building subdivisions and people from the mainland will be moving, living in condominiums on this island.
Prabhupada: That means for one convenience, they create another inconvenience.
Prabhupada: This is the business. In this way they will take three hours to go to the other side.
Prabhupada: ...photo must be there.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, here's his, his photograph is also on this round bucket. He puts his photograph on the bucket.
Prabhupada: He has become a very big man.
Prabhupada: By killing chickens.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. He actually is beginning to look like a chicken, his face. He's actually starting to look like a chicken.
Ambarisa: He claims he is a very religious man too.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Ambarisa: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is the sample of religious man. And what is irreligious? If the religious men kill so many chickens daily, then what is the irreligious man do?
Prabhupada: He kills the chicken and fry it in oil. And that is sold.
Ambarisa: He's also very involved in politics.
Prabhupada: Accha? He's a politician also?
Ambarisa: Yeah. At the Democratic convention he supplies all the politicians with unlimited fried chicken.
Prabhupada: Accha? (laughter) [break]
Siddha-svarupa: He also sells, I think. But this other chain of restaurants, McDonald's, they are very proud. They announce how many hamburgers they have sold. They have branches everywhere in the world.
Prabhupada: Hamburger means?
Siddha-svarupa: Uh, that's beef. They kill the cows in a unbelievable, at an unbelievable rate, the number of cows they're killing for their meat.
Prabhupada: [break] ...up? No?
Devotee: I think up to now they have sold 200,000,000 hamburgers or something like that.
Prabhupada: You also keep account?
Devotee: No, they put that ad in every day.
Ambarisa: You can't avoid seeing it.
Devotee: In front of their shop it's always there.
Siddha-svarupa: "We have killed this many." They are also trying to connect themselves with patriotism and religion. They have, at all of their restaurants, they have the American flag flying along with the McDonald's flag. They have their own flag, McDonald's. So they fly alongside the American flag. [break]
Ambarisa: I heard once that human beings in the modes of goodness were coming from the cow family or from the cows mostly? If there are so many cows being killed, why aren't there more people in the modes of goodness?
Prabhupada: Hmm? Now, after the... There are three sources: cow, monkey, and lion. This is the last animal life.
Prabhupada: Why not go a little...
Prabhupada: Yes, beach park. Oh, you have to stop.
Prabhupada: ...cow which is killed, that does not get immediately human life because he is untimely killed.
Ambarisa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable. [break]
Devotee: ...Kamehameha Day, today?
Prabhupada: Here, for chanting? A good hall? [break]
Paramahamsa: Is that a shark? That big fish... See that big fish, Prabhupada? That big one on the wall? He is hanging?
Prabhupada: Oh, he is dead?
Paramahamsa: Yes, dead fish. That's a shark.
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...they're kept for sale?
Siddha-svarupa: Well, no. It's a very strange thing. They just show everybody. They capture them and show everybody what they look like. The public pays 25 cents to go see what it looks like. [break]
Prabhupada: For aircraft killing?
Prabhupada: Oh. American or enemy's captured?
Siddha-svarupa: When I was a young boy, we would play with my friends. We would stand on this and try to knock each other off, push each other off the cannon.
Prabhupada: It can be... No.
Prabhupada: It is from the last world war? [break] ...far it goes?
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...such cannons are meant for killing aircraft. [break] ...London blitz, blitz, they were attacking from aircraft and from ground also, simultaneously. [break] ...beginning, they were conquering over Belgium and neighboring... Morning, one country, and evening, one country.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...is the name of somebody?
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...Hawaiian queen?
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: Oh, there are Philippines here?
Prabhupada: Oh. [break]
Srutakirti: That was the sound of peacocks.
Prabhupada: Where?
Srutakirti: Just over here somewhere.
Devotee: That's a zoo over there.
Prabhupada: [break] ...on the pathway there was sometimes tree. They do not cut it. [break] ...very rare there. It is dried firmly? It is dried up?
Devotee: Not all of them. Little bit dried and like that. So sometimes one of those, Kanva and other devotees, have been suggesting to put fruit trees instead of this kind of trees. Can we cut them?
Prabhupada: No.
Devotee: No, we should not. [break]
Prabhupada: ...it is absolutely necessary. [break] ...develop.
Prabhupada: Hawaii, yes.
Prabhupada: Oh. Now they are still here or they have left?
Siddha-svarupa: They are here, but they've mixed up with other races. There's many mixture in races. And most of the local people who live here, they're a mixture of Hawaiian, Japanese... [break]
Prabhupada: Then everything will go on nice.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, the people will have someone to look up to at least. They'll know which way to go. [break]
Prabhupada: ...rogues.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, and so then they become, the people become very frustrated because the leaders they're trying to look up to, they find out they're crooks, and it ruins their... [break]
Prabhupada: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Krsna conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rajarsi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Krsna conscious, then everything will be all right. [break] These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brahmanas, guided by the brahmanas, and they would do nicely. [break] ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them.
Prabhupada: This is the position. [break] ...not making kachori?
Prabhupada: Well, I have to ask for it? [break]
Prabhupada: ...planet with so many oceans and mountains, that is floating in the air. The whole thing is working. And these rascals want to compete with Krsna. [break]
Prabhupada: He believed in God.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. And he had made a replica. He had made a small replica of the universe with all the planets floating and so on. He had made a small replica, and it was sitting in his house. And his assistant came one day, his atheist assistant, he came and he says, "Oh, who has made this wonderful replica of the universe?" And Sir Isaac Newton, who was sitting there reading, he says, "Oh, no one." And the man said, "What do you mean no one?" He says... He didn't look up. He just says, "No one made it." And he kept reading and the guy, the assistant, the atheist, he became very perturbed. He kept saying, "What do you mean, you fool? Obviously somebody made it. He must have great intelligence, and I'd like to meet the fellow who created this." And Sir Isaac Newton put down his book and says, "My friend, this is but a small replica of the universe, and you're the one who is always declaring that no one has created the universe. And now you're declaring to me that somebody must have created that. I'm saying it just happened, but you don't believe me. So how can I accept your logic when you say that all of this just happened?" [break]
Prabhupada: ...temple is very nice. [break] ...is also very nice.
Prabhupada: ...lunch time.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes. [break] ...the location also. That's a very good location they have, on the main road.
Prabhupada: Japanese?
Prabhupada: ...injunction, apani-pado javano grahita, is, "He, the God, has no leg, no hand, but He accepts gift." "Accepts gift," means He has got hand, but why it is said, "No leg, no hand"? That means He has no material hand and leg. He has His hands and legs, but that is spiritual. That is the meaning. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. His body is made of spiritual eternity... This body is not eternal. But God has got His eternal body. There is no question of God's becoming old. Because His body is eternal. It is the material body which is not eternal. That is subjected to old age, disease, birth, death. What is this big house? [break] ...stated that he came to cheat the atheists. They did not believe in God, but God came as Buddha.
Prabhupada: And he said, "Yes, you are right. There is no God."
Prabhupada: They were satisfied, "Yes, we shall worship you." [break]
Siddha-svarupa: The so-called more advanced ones, the teachers, the leaders, the monks, they have a more difficult time because they are, have actually further studied the impersonalist philosophies, so they are more contaminated, whereas the congregation in general, they just, they don't take very seriously the philosophy. They don't get too deeply into it, I don't think. They just like to go to the temple and offer some incense to Lord Buddha and... [break] ...Govinda Restaurant, hungry... [break]
Prabhupada: ...chanting, dancing. So this will rectify his philosophy. Chanting is so strong, it will send all philosophy to hell. (laughter) Vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. [break] You will come out triumphant of all others. [break] ...that is happening. What we are doing? We are not playing any magic. How this Krsna consciousness movement is increasing?
Devotee: Yesterday I read in the newspaper that Indira Gandhi has been asked to step down from the prime ministership.
Prabhupada: I heard it. Where is that paper?
Devotee: I'll try to get a paper. [break]
Prabhupada: ...body comes in her place he will be another.
Devotee: Yes. [break] ...to step down, she's going to defy the court order.
Prabhupada: Like Nixon, like Nixon. [break]
Prabhupada: What is that security?
Prabhupada: And there was no necessity. Still, we shall go. It is very pleasant. [break] One umbrella, if you push, it will open, and if you push down, it will come back. Machine. [break] ...mantra is described in the sastra just like a potential medicine. If you take it, either you know it or not know it, it will act. And another example is given. Just like fire. If one, the father knows, "This is fire," and throws to the grass, it will be burned. Similarly, if a childhe does not know what it isif he throws, then that will also burn. [break]
Prabhupada: No, no.
Prabhupada: New York is still doubtful.
Ambarisa: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: But that's a good house, New York?
Ambarisa: The one that they have or the one that they're trying to buy? [break]
Prabhupada: They are trying to buy. Did he send them letter by lawyer?
Ambarisa: No, I haven't... No, my lawyer called... [break]
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...another duplicate Pacific?
Prabhupada: Is it not possible?
Prabhupada: (chuckles) That also not possible. [break] ...let them drop this atom bomb and ruin it.
Prabhupada: ...ship? What is that?
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] Is there any fruit?
Prabhupada: [break] ...date.
Prabhupada: ...is very nice.
Prabhupada: ...movement, then that is nice.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, They, the mystic yogis... [break] ...Cambodia and Vietnam. Now Cambodia and Vietnam are fighting.
Prabhupada: Accha? Why?
Siddha-svarupa: Over the oil on the offshore. There is offshore oil. The oil that the United Stated wanted. Now these two are fighting off some islands that are... There's a wars... Wars are... [break]
Prabhupada: Simply rogues. [break] There is light engaged. [break] They understood. Because when Kamsa was baffled in killing the children of his sister, he regretted that "I have killed so many children of you, my dear sister. I am awaiting the most abominable hellish conditions." He admitted. [break]
Ambarisa: ...don't know what good and bad is. They think if you don't kill anybody that you will go to heaven. I mean any human being.
Siddha-svarupa: But they think that this is only one? They do accept that there's life after this life and that they will live either in heavenly planets...
Prabhupada: Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? They believe it.
Prabhupada: What is, the Bible says, "Come to kingdom of God"?
Prabhupada: So if you have no next life, how you are going to there?
Prabhupada: Then that is... Another life means soul.
Prabhupada: They have no clear knowledge. That is their... [break]
Siddha-svarupa: They are called Mormons. They have very big temples. They build very big temples still.
Prabhupada: Oh. Is there any Deity?
Siddha-svarupa: They don't let anyone in the temple. It is for secret membership... It is for the... Only if you become a secret member or something. I do not know what they have in there. I think what they have in there is copies of their scripture that were on golden...
Ambarisa: Book of Mormon.
Ambarisa: They have a gold Jesus deity.
Siddha-svarupa: They do. They worship Jesus. But they clearly accept that one, that the person is separate from his body, the soul is different than the body, that we are not flesh, that we are spirit.
Ambarisa: They have very strict disciplines too.
Siddha-svarupa: And they accept that God is a person, that Jesus is the son of the Supreme Person. They even use the word, "Supreme Person, Supreme Personality." So in that way they are in conflict with...
Prabhupada: That God is separate from Jesus?
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, that He is the father of Jesus. They make long arguments to show their point, that God is one with Jesus as father and son, not as two persons the same person. And they also have fairly strict... They have strict principles, but the people don't follow them very well.
Ambarisa: A lot of the young people do. Like I live around Salt Lake, and there's a lot of Mormons there and there's a lot that... [break]
Siddha-svarupa: ...we can become creators of a universe and be in charge of our own universe. They are hopeful for that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...in Bhagavata also that after passing one hundred life of first-class karmi one can become Brahma. And after becoming Brahma, he goes directly back to home, back to Godhead. [break] ...this dissolution, Brahma hasn't got to die. By the same body he goes. [break] All the inhabitants of Brahmaloka they also go with Brahma. [break]
Siddha-svarupa: ...have sex outside of marriage, any of these activities. And they're not supposed to eat meat unless it's in time of famine or absolute necessity. They have a whole city. It's called Salt Lake City in Utah that's all practically their followers. [break]
Ambarisa: In Salt Lake City they don't have bars.
Siddha-svarupa: There's no bars in the city of Salt Lake. There's no drinking establishments or pornographic movies and these things.
Prabhupada: So when they started?
Ambarisa: I don't know when they found those documents. A lot of them are still secret. They won't... A lot of them are like books about what's going to happen in the future, and they keep them somewhere. [break]
Siddha-svarupa: ...system of having more than one wife, that a holy person or religious man had the duty to take on and give protection to more than one woman because there weren't enough righteous men and there were more women that needed protection than there were righteous men. So if there was a righteous man, it was his duty to protect more than one wife. But nowadays I think they are having some trouble keeping that in the United States. That is one thing the Christians became very... [break]
Prabhupada: ...preach.
Devotee: Yes, that's... [break]
Ambarisa: Bali and I were discussing that the other day. Bali-mardana and I. Maybe when I come back here to live, maybe after Christmas, he and I, we'll see if we can work out... He knows some people that are in the movie business.
Prabhupada: Actors, we shall play. They haven't got to pay for us.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ambarisa: They could be run on T.V. too.
Siddha-svarupa: Have a series. [break] ...not to continue or make any impression. And that will necessitate very good acting, not slapstick comedy. [break]
Prabhupada: ...not professional. [break] ...men can be trained upthat is possibleto play. We require professional director. Money may be spent by the movie company. And we give our men an idea. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ambarisa: 'Cause they have made many great religious pictures, big epics about Jesus and stuff like that. So maybe they would be open to the idea of doing the Bhagavad-gita. That would be nice. [break]
Siddha-svarupa: I mentioned to you something about making a movie of Bhagavad-gita. You said it would be very difficult to find fifty thousand elephants. (laughs) There will be some... [break] ...Krsna-lila will be easier. He can be fighting one demon or dancing with the gopis. Bhagavad-gita is... [break]
Prabhupada: ...do not understand the existence of soul, then why do they say, "My head, my hand"? Why not say, "I head." What is their answer? Why do you say, "My head"?
Prabhupada: That is the folly.
Prabhupada: It is not the question of religion. Unless one understands, then he does not understand the transmigration of the soul. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1975/jun/morning_walk/honolulu/june/10/1975 
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