Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador – September 5, 1973, Stockholm

730905R1-STOCKHOLM [74:29 Minutes]

Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied

Prabhupada: When you left Moscow?

Ambassador: February, six months ago.

Prabhupada: Oh. I went Moscow in...?

Devotee: 1970.

Prabhupada: Nineteen...?

Devotee: Seventy.

Prabhupada: No, no. I think nineteen...

Hamsaduta: Seventy-one.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hamsaduta: Seventy...

Prabhupada: Two.

Hamsaduta: Seventy-two, that's right.

Prabhupada: June.

Hamsaduta: June.

Devotee: That was last year?

Hamsaduta: Seventy-one.

Prabhupada: Eh? Seventy-one.

Devotee: In April, I think, or March.

Prabhupada: You were there at '71?

Ambassador: Seventy-one, I was, I think, there. I might have gone to India on leave. I returned in March, the end of March. Because I don't remember the [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes. I went there in June, 1971.

Ambassador: And did you stay in the city, or did...?

Prabhupada: Yes, in National Hotel. One Madrasi gentleman...

Ambassador: I remember now, sir. Abhiyarthe[?] Natarajan.

Prabhupada: Nataraja, yes.

Ambassador: Mr. Natarajan Rao told me, because I was away. I was away in Central Asia. I remember his telling me. And Natarajan looked after.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: I see.

Prabhupada: So you have heard something about our movement?

Ambassador: General, generally. In general. I hear...

Prabhupada: All over the world, they are expecting something spiritual enlightenment from India. That is a fact. But our government is callous in that respect. Therefore any so-called svami, yogis come from India, they gather to receive him, to hear something from him. Yes. This is the tendency, that... The real thing is that people expected something... Still they are respectful to India on account of the spiritual enlightenment.

That I have studied. Still they go to India to have some spiritual enlightenment. And actually we have got this in India. If anything has to be learned about spiritual, then it is only India. That has been admitted by one Chinese gentleman. He's a learned scholar. His book is recommended in New York University. I forget his name. He has written in his book that "If you want to learn something religion and spiritual, then you must go to India."

Ambassador: It must be Lin Yutang, no?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: Was it Lin Yutang?

Prabhupada: I do not know.

Ambassador: Yutang. You see he's a very great admirer of India.

Prabhupada: And that's a fact. But our Indian government is not very serious about it.

Ambassador: No, we have a difficulty, Your Eminence. You have got a problem in India because we have got this multi-religious society. So we have to be careful. But individuals can do it for the...

Prabhupada: No...

Ambassador: Because we have got to be... We should not be misunderstood. As a government, we should not take too strong a policy about any particular religion, even though it is the religion of the majority of the people.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is the duty of the government... Secular state means neutral to any kind of religion. But it is the duty of government to see that people are religious. Not that 'Because government is secular, let the people go to hell.' "

Ambassador: No, that's true.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you are Muslim, and..., it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty... You cannot give up religion. Dharmena hinah pasubhih samanah [Hitopadesa].

If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous: "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think?

Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible.

Prabhupada: No. No, politics means to see that people are advanced, citizens are advanced, not that they are degraded.

Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something. Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is...

Prabhupada: No. That is... Just like you have got Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, commercial or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors. Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector.

They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral, that "Whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely." But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government duty.

Ambassador: Probably, as far as moral conduct is concerned, but more than that, how is it possible, you know? For the inner man in the spiritual mind, each individual can conceive his own thoughts. But the external conduct, the, the, what is called...?

Prabhupada: No, no. External conduct means on religious principle.

Ambassador: This is what I was...

Prabhupada: Yes. Harav abhaktasya kuto... I... You can, you can...

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...understand Sanskrit.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah [SB 5.18.12]. If one has got faith and devotion to God... God is one. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to... Not according; this is the Vedic conclusion.

One must be religious. Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied. Therefore there is confusion, dissatisfaction all over the world because..., because people have become irreligious. If you want to keep... In Calcutta there was, in the American Consulate Office, I was invited. There, they have got a department: "Indo-American Cultural Society." Perhaps you know.

Ambassador: I heard about it.

Prabhupada: I was invited there to speak: "East and West." So I explained that so far we are concerned, we have no such thing as East and West. But still, there is difference between East and West that in the Eastern countries, especially in India, even in the remotest part of the village, a cultivator, poor cultivator, he'll understand God consciousness very easily. And so far in the West... I talked with Professor Kotovsky. Perhaps you know.

Ambassador: Yes. In Oriental Institute.

Prabhupada: Yes. He said, "Swamiji, after this body's finished, everything is finished." You see? Such a big professor. He...

Ambassador: That is Marxist materialism.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: It is Marxist materialism, I think.

Prabhupada: But Marxist materialism, does it mean that a congregation of some fools and rascals?

Ambassador: I [indistinct], true.

Prabhupada: Does it mean they write that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know; he cannot understand even that there is life after death, he has to accept another body, as we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not?

Ambassador: Yes, this is true.

Prabhupada: Children, small children, they're just like animal. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category, because when he'll get..., he'll get another body, in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness, if you make progress? Yes. This is progress, you see. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita: tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati.

So the people cannot understand. That means they are not dhira, not even, according to Vedic conc..., not even gentlemen. One who cannot understand this simple theory, that "After this body, as I have changed so many bodies, similarly, I shall change this body also." That's a fact. So dhiras tatra na muhyati. Dhira, one who has got brain, one who can think, he'll not be puzzled. "Yes, he has... Death means he has changed body." Any gentle, good brain will understand. But people are so foolish now, they cannot understand. They are not educated even to understand this simple thing. This is the position of the world. Even a big professor like Kotovsky. So this is the position of our present human society.

Ambassador: But in the countries like Moscow, Soviet Union, they are hostile, against it, but in most parts of the world, they're indifferent. I mean, it's...

Prabhupada: No, no. Why Moscow? Everywhere. Moscow, they are, rather, good that they say, "We don't believe in God."

Ambassador: That's true. That's true.

Prabhupada: But others, they say that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I believe in God," but he does not know anything.

Ambassador: I'm afraid most of us are like that, to be honest. That's true.

Prabhupada: I should say that Moscow are gentlemen. Because they cannot understand, they say, "Don't believe."

Ambassador: It's mudha-dhi.

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughs] But these rascals, they say, "Yes, I'm religious," but he's doing most irreligious activities. You see? I asked the Christian so many times that "Your Bible says, 'Thou shall not kill.' And why you are killing?" They cannot give any satisfactory answer. This is my experience. It is clearly said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouses. What is this? The other day in London, one lady, she was showing me... She...

[aside:] You were present? Broke some grass blade?

Hamsaduta: Oh, yes, I was present.

Prabhupada: Just see. Breaking a grass blade is equal to keeping a big, organized slaughterhouse. Just see.

Ambassador: I see.

Prabhupada: This is their intelligence. [laughs] She has complained, "It is also killing." Supposing it is killing. Actually it is not killing. Supposing it is killing. This killing and keeping organized slaughterhouse killing is the same thing. Just see. People have become so degraded.

Ambassador: This is sophistry.

Prabhupada: They give this example that "You also kill vegetable, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they are Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. [laughs] You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?

Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted...

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Ambassador: ...you have to organize slaughterhouses.

Prabhupada: Then, then that is the..., our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.

Ambassador: Because...

Prabhupada: Indian culture.

Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete...

Prabhupada: No, I don't want.

Ambassador: ...a strong, obedient, disciplined society. But the moment the disciplinarian becomes a dictator, it is...

Prabhupada: It is, it is the duty of the government to see. That is the government. Strong government means...

Ambassador: It's the Rama-rajya ideal, I'm not [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice.

That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all," is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic sastra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government?

Government... Now it is government, but formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because... Who is God? God means nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam, eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]. Kathopanisad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. Bahu-vacanam, nityanam, cetananam, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityah, cetanah, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman.

So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity... In the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of chinti. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole, a small hole? You did not provide that hole. You did not provide their food. But there are hundreds and millions of ants. They're living there within the hole very happily. Sometimes they come out. We see: "Oh, wherefrom so many hundreds coming?" So eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That is God. He's supplying food.

So there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Out of that, 400,000 are human beings. Out of that, many are uncivilized. The uncivilized aborigines live in the jungle. They have no economic problem. They're also human being. They never come to city for food. They are maintaining themselves. The elephants are maintaining. The ants are maintaining. Why the civilized, a few men, they have got so problem, so many problem? Because they... We are not only the living entities. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They're all being maintained by the Supreme Lord.

In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [Bg 14.4]: "As many forms are there, in all different species," aham bija-pradah pita, "I am the father." As father maintains the sons, as we see actually, He's maintaining. So why you are so much...? Our father is rich. He's not poor. God is not poor. Sad-aisvarya-purna. Six kinds of opulence fully. So why are you talking of this overpopulation, scarcity of food? Why? Actually the father is God. He's maintaining. And factually we see how many human beings, civilized human beings, are there. The other living beings are many hundred thousand times bigger quantity. If they can be maintained by God, what we have done that He'll not maintain us? He'll maintain us. He's maintaining. So many people, they say, "India is starving." I am Indian. I never see any man starving and died. I've never seen. This is simply advertisement. What is your opinion?

Ambassador: There is poverty.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: There is poverty.

Prabhupada: Poverty, there is poverty in other countries also.

Ambassador: Also.

Prabhupada: There, there also... Now India has got poverty. So why in America and Europe there are hippies. Why?

Ambassador: It's an express... It's another type of poverty.

Prabhupada: They're also thinking that "We are not sumptuously fed," or something. Some demands is there. Some demand. And they are lying down, Amsterdam and here, on the street. And why? But they are coming of rich families, rich nation. Especially America. In London also, I have seen, in Regent Park, they're lying down. Police is kicking. Police is kicking: "Get up, get up!" Why? Behind them the British Empire is, British government is there. Why he's lying down there? Who has told him to...? Government is requesting, "If you have no home, come on, I shall give you home." In Bombay also, these, what is called? The huts?

Hamsaduta: Huts?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hamsaduta: Those tent huts?

Prabhupada: They are on the... You have seen in Bombay?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: We passed, when we passed while coming from aerodrome to city...

Ambassador: From...

Prabhupada: So many thatched cottages, small. So Bombay government has given them home, that "You come here, live." But what do they...? They rent to some, another man, and they live in the... In Madras also, I have seen.

Ambassador: I know. That's true.

Prabhupada: Yes. They don't like. They don't like. They want to that...

Ambassador: They roam, yes. It's what the gypsies did, you know.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: When they were given houses in Moscow.

Prabhupada: So there are different prakrtis. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg 3.27]. So there are different prakrtis, different mentality. They want to live, eat. The eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there, but everyone has got different ideas. Just like you say, majority of people, they want to eat meat. They have got different mentality. But we don't want.

Ambassador: In India, of course, not majority, I think it's a minority.

Prabhupada: No, no. More...

Ambassador: Most people are...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. In India, they're being now educated to eat meat. [Ambassador laughs] Otherwise, Indians, at least Hindus...

Ambassador: It is true. That's true. [laughing]

Prabhupada: Eh? They are being educated.

Ambassador: [laughing] I belong to vegetarian family. I eat meat now.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, in Madras, I have seen...

Ambassador: Most of them...

Prabhupada: Mostly they are vegetarian, strictly vegetarian. Actually, in southern India, they maintain the Hindu culture. You'll find big high-court judges, they have got tilaka.

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupada: Yes. Strictly in Ramanuja-sampradaya, or Saiva-sampradaya they have got... Strictly taking bath, and tilaka. In New Delhi, you'll find so many Madrasi gentlemen, big, big, high officers, they're strictly following Hindu principles.

Ambassador: You'll be surpri...

Prabhupada: And still, if I am correct, in Madras they, there, there is not many Muhammadans. The Muhammadan culture could not enter...

Ambassador: That's very true.

Prabhupada: ...into Madras, southern India. And you'll find also in our Caitanya-Caritamrta... Now I am translating. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to southern India, practically whole southern India became Vaisnava by His preaching.

Ambassador: It is a great period of [indistinct]...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And all the acaryas, they came from Southern India. Saṅkaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya. I think Madhvacarya belonged to your province? Malaya?

Ambassador: No, Saṅkaracarya ki...

Prabhupada: Saṅkaracarya.

Ambassador: From Kerala. Sir, I have got a question. I have not really been able to locate when exactly Radha entered Hindu mythology. Because the Bhagavatam doesn't mention. They mention only rasa-krida as a... Before that, they were, before Gauraṅga, Caitanya, did you..., do you when did exactly the bhakti cult take... The Radha-Krsna, I mean. They were generally the gopis and...

Prabhupada: Other acaryas, they elevated people up to sakhya-rasa.

Ambassador: Sakhya-rasa.

Prabhupada: It is Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He gave us madhurya-rasa.

Ambassador: Madhurya-rasa.

Prabhupada: Therefore about Caitanya Mahaprabhu it is said, anarpita-carim cirat. Anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-madhurya-rasam...

It is the gift of Sacinandana, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that Krsna can be served in madhurya-rasa, in conjugal love. That is Sri Caitanya. And amongst the gopis, Radharani was the best gopi, foremost. Anayaradhitah. This, this is mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Anayaradhitah.

Ambassador: Oh, this is the beginning.

Prabhupada: Anayaradhitah. When Krsna disappeared from rasa-lila, rasa dance, then gopis went out to search Him out, and at that time they saw that one gopi is most beloved by Krsna. Anayaradhitah. Therefore "Radha."

Ambassador: Anayaradhitah?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: I do not know what we can do here, Your Grace, but we will be very happy to help them if they want any special material like dal or any vegetables or..., whatever it is... I think they are quite well...

Prabhupada: Yes. We, we, we have no fixed income.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: But Krsna has given us opportunity. Our books are selling... You have seen our books?

Ambassador: I've seen them in Moscow. One gentleman had a complete set. So I have glanced through them. Especially the Bhagavad...

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita As It Is?

Ambassador: ...translation, yes. And also the Bhagavatam, also.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita As It Is.

Ambassador: Yes, this one, yes.

Prabhupada: This is published by Macmillan Company. We are selling about more than one lakh copies per year through Macmillan Company. Yes. Similarly, we are selling our other books.

[aside:] Bring...

Ambassador: The complete set I have seen. And also the other... Bhagavatam, and also the other...

Prabhupada: That is not yet complete. Bhagavatam will be finished in sixty volumes.

Ambassador: Oh, sixty.

Prabhupada: We have published only six volume. Our manuscript is ready, but it requires great amount of money to publish.

Ambassador: And also...

Prabhupada: But we are satisfied that in English-reading public, in Australia and America, in England, Europe-we are publishing in different languages-people are accepting our books very nicely. And lately that one distributor...

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: This. No, not this. Where is that catalog?

Hamsaduta: Brockridge, Keenan and Hall?

Prabhupada: Ah, ah?

Hamsaduta: Catalog? I think we must have left that in London.

Prabhupada: They are also distributing our books, Macmillan Company. People are... Now there will be a big meeting on the 12th September, how to organize. Because this kind of literature was there; there was none before this. The bhakti cult, this was never presented to the Western countries.

Ambassador: Yes, yes. Mostly it was Vivekananda's explanation.

Prabhupada: Vivekananda did not know anything about bhakti.

Ambassador: No, I mean he just, literally, it's not bhakti at all. Yes, it is...

Prabhupada: Neither Vivekananda nor any svami, That is the, I mean to say, regrettable fact. They, actually... Even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he could not present Bhagavad-gita as it is. You see? He's impersonalist, and he presented in a different way, and now Professor..., Dr. Pirindher...?

Hamsaduta: Pilinder.

Srutakirti: Dillinger[?].

Prabhupada: He said, he came to see me, that "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan."

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because everyone has speculated in his own way. Therefore we have presented Bhagavad-gita as it is. And if you have got time, we can read some of the portions, how we have presented as it is. So people are liking this, as it is. Otherwise, Bhagavad-gita is well known in the Western country, all over Europe. But because it was not presented as it is, there was not a single devotee of Krsna. You find out, the whole history. Bhagavad-gita is meant for making the reader a devotee of Krsna. Is it not?

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. So who can become fully surrendered to Krsna unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji. "Worship Me." Mam namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah.

[aside:] Find out this verse. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah [Bg 7.20]. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam [Bg 7.23]: "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.

Ambassador: Most of... Well, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you.

Prabhupada: No, I'm talking of...

Ambassador: To me, Gita means Gandhi's Gita, which said in a very distorted, very limited version...

Prabhupada: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gita.

Ambassador: [laughs] I understand him the most.

Prabhupada: Well, you... Gandhi may give his opinion, but why he should give through Bhagavad-gita?

Ambassador: I know. Anasakta-yoga is really...

Prabhupada: He should not take advantage of... That is being done. Everyone is taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gita and he's expressing his own opinion.

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupada: This is going on. We want to stop this nonsense. If you have got opinion, you write different book.

Ambassador: Yes. But not...

Prabhupada: Why you should misuse Bhagavad-gita?

Ambassador: The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: That's what Shakespeare said, sir, "The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose."

Prabhupada: That's it. Yes. That's a fact. Yes, why you should try to introduce your philosophy, now, say, for Gandhi's nonviolence? Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gita?

Ambassador: [laughs.] It's... Yeah, this is true. Ahimsa paramo dharmah, dharmo 'himsa tathaiva ca.[?]

Prabhupada: So our, our point is that you may express your own op... Everyone has got right to, especially Mahatma Gandhi. He was actually a great personality. There is no doubt about it. But so far Bhagavad-gita is concerned, he did not know anything. But from his behavior, it was seen that at heart he was a devotee. Yes. At heart he was a devotee. Yes. Because he was chanting...

Ambassador: Yes, he, of course, shares with you this belief in chants. That we noticed, yes, very much in...

Prabhupada: That raghupati raghava raja rama.

Ambassador: Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada: Ah. So that... But maybe for politics he has explained like that. Now what is that verse?

"Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."

Prabhupada: Hmm. Next verse.

"I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship the demigods, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to some particular deity."

Prabhupada: Hmm. Then next?

Prabhupada: That also kaman. Whatever benediction they get, that is sanctioned by Krsna. They cannot give it independently.

[aside:] [bangs on desk] You can keep it here. These six volumes are already published.

Ambassador: Oh, I see, Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: But, uh, no, this is Bhagavatam.

Ambassador: Sri Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Similar, another fifty-four volumes is to be published.

Ambassador: Oh, it's a tremendous undertaking.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Ambassador: Whatever might be the difference of opinion about the, you know, the subtleties, you see, this itself is very great.

Prabhupada: And we have given each meaning of. You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set, six copies. You see?

Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also.

And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's...

Prabhupada: Transliteration also.

Ambassador: ...it's for students also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Transliteration.

Ambassador: Yes. Transliteration and then [Sanskrit] and then for the...

Prabhupada: Translation.

Ambassador: ...viccheda. How long will Your Divine Grace be here?

Prabhupada: Four days?

Hamsaduta: It's on the 11th. Eleventh morning we're leaving, back to London.

Ambassador: Back to London. And you'll be visiting only Sweden this time?

Hamsaduta: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: Not Copenhagen or Oslo?

Hamsaduta: No.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada attem... He traveled to Paris, and also, previously, to Amsterdam and Germany, in years previously.

Ambassador: This temple is going to be a permanent situation, this particular building, or...?

Devotee: Yes.

Ambassador: Or somewhere.

Devotee: In the beginning stage, yes.

Ambassador: Yes, then you'll have to locate something.

Prabhupada: So practically single-handed I am trying to give this original Indian culture to the world. And nobody's helping me. Neither, if some rich man wants to help me, government will not allow to help me.

Ambassador: Oh, yes, especially...

Prabhupada: Now just like Sir Padampat Singhania of Kanpur, he promised that "You just construct a nice temple in New York." He wanted to give the money, and the government will not allow.

Ambassador: Oh, foreign exchange.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not allow. I made correspondences with the government. The last reply was that "You can raise fund locally, but you cannot take money from here." Now who will pay? Of course, these boys are paying me. We are getting... Now recently, one boy, you know his name, George Harrison. He's a very famous singer.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: So he has purchased for me one house, fifty-five lakhs' worth. But what..., no Indian could help me. At £220,000. So it is equivalent to fifty-five lakhs.

Ambassador: But I'm told that you have fifty-five temples in the West...

Prabhupada: No, why fifty? More than fifty. In USA we have got about fifty temples. And Australia, also, we have got five temples. And Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and...

Devotee: Perth.

Prabhupada: Perth. And Darwin.

Ambassador: Darwin also.

Prabhupada: Yes. And we had very gorgeous Ratha-yatra ceremony in Australia. In London also. You know that? Ten thousand people participated, and we distributed prasadam.

Ambassador: On the 12th you'll have it in London.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: This big meeting will be in London, on the 12th.

Hamsaduta: That is another meeting. Our Ratha-yatra was held on July 8th in London.

Ambassador: Yes, that's right.

Hamsaduta: July 8th. And simultaneously in San Francisco and in Sydney. All over the world.

Prabhupada: And during Janmastami, the...

Ambassador: Ah, Janmastami.

Prabhupada: The, the ambassador, Mr. Rasagotra...

Ambassador: Rasagotra.

Prabhupada: He came. He's very nice man.

Ambassador: Yes. He suffered, you know.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: In personal life also, he has suffered.

Prabhupada: One of his sons died.

Ambassador: That's what I was telling. He's a very good man. His wife is also coming from a very religious family, like what Your Grace said, you know. His wife's grandfather was one of the real sadhus, you see. He lived in a... He was a judge, but he was also a yogi.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Our history, we find so many grhasthas, householder kings, rajarsi. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg 4.2]. Raja, king, at the same time, rsi. This was the king. Just like Maharaja Yudhisthira, rajarsi. He's a king, but rsi. You read that portion. Yes. The government of Maharaja Yudhisthira, how they were happy, just see. Kamam, kamam vavarsa parjanyah [SB 1.10.4]. Parjanya. Parjanya means cloud. Yes. Kamam vavarsa parjanyah. The, all our necessities come from the rain. Now there is scarcity of rain. What the government can do or the scientists can do? And if there is no rain, then all your plan is finished.

Ambassador: Yes, that's true.

Prabhupada: All his plan is finished.

[aside:] Read it.

Ambassador: Anavrsti, avrsti-bhuj.

Prabhupada: And that is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: anavrsti, durbhiksa and kara-pidita. One side, there will be no rain, and there will be scarcity of food grain, and government will tax heavily. In this way people will become mad, and they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. This is the foretelling of it. This is going to happen. Actually, people are being perplexed in that way. There is scarcity of food...

Ambassador: Yes, there is.

"During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupada: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know it, that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So how they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know that "We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the cow is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were happy.

Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet with milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to live. We... Our Bhagavad-gita says, krsi-go-raksya vaisya. Means krsi-go-raksya, to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows-to kill cows. Just see, business. Vaisya means businessman. So vaisya's business is krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. But no go-raksya. Cutting the throat of go. This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead of giving protection to the cows... In the Bible also it is said that the animals are given under the protection of the human being.

Devotee: Man, yes.

Prabhupada: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and eat." This is their interpretation.

Ambassador: Swamiji, I have taken so much already... You have been so kind.

Prabhupada: No, it is very kind of you that you have come.

Ambassador: No, it's all on you.

Prabhupada: Give him prasada.

Hamsaduta: Yeah, we're preparing prasadam.

Prabhupada: Please.

Hamsaduta: Puris and nice rice.

Prabhupada: So we are simply trying to revive people's dormant Krsna consciousness. So every sane man, every good government, everyone should come forward to help this movement. It is not a personal affair. We are not presenting that "I am avatara. I am God." We are presenting science, philosophy. You see? Why we are taking so much trouble to write so many books? If we...

We want to convince people through science, philosophy, logic, religious principle, by practical behavior. All these boys are being trained up not to have any illicit sex, not to eat meat and not to take any intoxication up to tea, coffee, cigarette, and not to indulge in gambling. They're doing that. So we are making man of character, man of religion, man of philosophy. Why people should not cooperate with us? We are not presenting any blind, so-called religious faith. No. That is not our business. Our business is caitanyera-daya katha karaha vicara. You understand little Bengali? You understand Hindi.

Ambassador: Yes.

If you are sane man, if you give due consideration and then give your judgment, then you'll find that it is wonderful. Caitanya-daya katha karaha vicara. We don't say that you take it blindly. No. Vicara. After full logic and consideration you accept, not blindly. But if you do that, you'll see it is wonderful. It is wonder... So why those who are advanced in education, they should not take this movement seriously and try to understand seriously and cooperate with us? It is not a blind thing. So... Actually, from government level we are not getting any support. Not... I don't speak in India. Anywhere.

Ambassador: Yes, I am aware of the government problem.

Prabhupada: Eh? Because they think, "Oh, it is religious." Not only they are... In America there are big, big foundation. As soon as we submit some petition, "Help us," "No, no, we don't help any religious movement." That's all. We don't get any help. Simply Krsna has given us this chance of selling these books. That's all. Nobody's cooperating. Rather, when our people go to sell these literature and chant Hare Krsna, they're arrested and harassed.

Ambassador: I see.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: That is because of, I think, a lot of confusion with the drug movement, hippies and all of this...

Prabhupada: Oh. But... It may be... You might have been cheated by counterfeit money in some place. Does it mean there is no good money? What is this reason? "Because I have been cheated by some man, he gave me some counterfeit money, therefore I'll not touch money any more. No. Any..., no, that's all. I don't like." What is this? He must judge whether it is counterfeit or real. That is required. So if you can help us in some way or other, try to help us. Otherwise we shall go on with this single-handed. But I am not getting any help from any other source. Then this movement had been..., would have been very, very rapidly progressing. It is progressing, but... Because we don't get any support. Lord Buddha's movement was spread because King Ashoka supported.

Devotee: Christ.

Ambassador: Christ also? Constantine?

Devotee: Protestantism, yes.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: The Protestant movement also, when they broke away from the Catholic church, the kings would protect the movement and fight to protect.

Prabhupada: It is king's duty.

Ambassador: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: But we are... Your Grace small people. We can only, we cannot go beyond the...

Prabhupada: Yes. That I know.

Ambassador: But as individuals we'd be very happy to...

Prabhupada: No, even if we approach higher authorities... Our men in New Delhi saw Indira Gandhi.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. She said that "This is the position, that we are secular. We cannot support." Of course, we want simply Krsna's support. And we are increasing. We are not decreasing. The movement was started in 1966.

Ambassador: Oh, only?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: That's tremendous.

Prabhupada: Now it is all over.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: All over the world. From this Sweden to Australia, New Zealand, North and South. And all round the world.

Ambassador: What about Germany also?

Prabhupada: Yes. He's in charge of this zone.

Ambassador: The Germans are very...

Hamsaduta: Yes, we have a temple in Berlin and Munchen, and Hamburg and Heidelberg.

Prabhupada: No, we are not discouraged. We are not discouraged. But sometimes we are sorry that such a nice movement...

Ambassador: Is not true... we supported. I mean, I... We have this dilemma. I'm being very honest with you. First, we have got the dilemma of choosing the right thing, you know, because so many people claim to speak about reviving Hinduism.

Prabhupada: But, as, as you find out... Just like you issue license to medical practitioner, registered medical. Why don't you see that which movement is genuine? That is the duty of the government. But the government is also, they're unaware about which one is actually...

[devotees bring in prasada]

Ambassador: Oh, I'm... I'm very grateful to you, but this is, it is a meal.

Devotee: Jaya. It is our pleasure.

Prabhupada: You can keep here.

Ambassador: I'll take the real prasada. I'll be happy.

Prabhupada: No, you can take. It is all real prasada.

Ambassador: But, you know this, to us is, we call in Kerala, this is called tryamrta.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Ambassador: Tryamrta is sugar and honey and...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Ambassador: ...sugar and grapes.

Prabhupada: Pancamrta, we have got.

Ambassador: Hmm...

Prabhupada: Tryamrta.

Ambassador: Yes. All this is prepared by these young men? [eating]

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. One thing I can request you, that you give us, some of..., some of our men, going to India, missionary visa.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that they can stay there. Because we have now four, five temples, and I require their assistance to maintain.

Ambassador: In India.

Prabhupada: In India. So if you kindly give some of our men the missionary visa, it will be very kind of you. It is missionary.

Ambassador: I'll immediately write and find out, because it is a very logical thing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: Because we give them to other religions.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why not this? So if you kindly help in this way. That is within your power.

Ambassador: I'll simply write it. Of course.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. [Ambassador laughs] We can immediately submit some of the names, and you can give us.

Ambassador: Of course, from Sweden, I mean, it depends upon the nationality. People can go for three months without any visa.

Prabhupada: No, that is different thing. But missionary visa. From missionary... When there's missionary, there is no question of any particular country. Because we have got men from different countries. Our men, ISKCON representative, they should be given missionary visa when they want to go. That is my... That much help I want.

Ambassador: Who is the representative in India of this...? In Delhi, of your organization? In Delhi?

Prabhupada: In Delhi?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes, there is. Tejiyas.

Devotee: Tejiyas dasa.

Ambassador: He should meet someone fairly senior in the Home Ministry.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: I can write to him, and he can also meet. I think...

Prabhupada: So you can, you can give some introductory...

Ambassador: Yes, I will give the names, too.

[aside to devotees] You come to the Embassy.

Prabhupada: No, visa, of course, it is to be given from here. So why you should refer to Delhi? You can use your discrimination.

Ambassador: I don't think so Your Grace. I'll see. I doubt very much. If I can exercise, I am prepared to exercise it. I know that there will be many [indistinct].

Prabhupada: So... No, no. Visa, visa is issued from the country...

Ambassador: Yeah, from the embassy, but we have got some... Some people we can straight away issue. In some cases they would refer to India. But if we make a positive recommendation, they will agree.

Prabhupada: So that I do not know. But visa is given by the embassy, from the local place.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, would you like prasadam?

Prabhupada: Later on.

Ambassador: Much too early.

Prabhupada: So they have done nice?

Ambassador: They have done so well, you know. I feel...

Prabhupada: So you kindly eat all of them.

Ambassador: I feel [indistinct], but I can't eat them all.

Prabhupada: No, no. It is only two.

Ambassador: I'll eat those two paratas.

Prabhupada: Ah, two paratas.

Ambassador: Because you have done it so well.

Prabhupada: Prasadam prapti-matrena bhoktavyam. That is the Vedic injunction. Even it is brought from distant place, even it is dried up, even it is touched by the untouchable, still it should be taken immediately.

Ambassador: Yes, that's true. That's true.

Prabhupada: Prasadam prapti-matrena bhoktavyam.

Ambassador: Remember how Krsna received Sudama?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: When he brought the...?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: Have you been to Kerala, Your Grace?

Prabhupada: Yes, I was in Cochin. While coming to New York, I came on ship. So my ship stopped in Cochin. Yes.

Ambassador: I see. We have got some wonderful Krsna temples, Visnu temples.

Prabhupada: Cochin?

Ambassador: In Cochin? Not in Cochin town. There is, but not very famous. But the one about ten miles from Cochin, where I come from, is one of the greatest temples, called Poornathrayesa. This is a very good... The Cochin royal family used to stay.

Prabhupada: Oh. Oh, you come from there?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Swami Chinmayananda also comes from there?

Ambassador: Yes. Swami Chinmayananda comes from Ernakulam.

Prabhupada: Ernakulam, yes.

Ambassador: I come from about five miles from. I actually used to know him when, before he became... When he was a journalist.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: I used to know him when he was a journalist.

Prabhupada: Oh, he was a journalist?

Ambassador: Yes, before. In Dacra.[?]

Prabhupada: Oh.

Ambassador: But is there any special, specific person who wants to go to India immediately?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: Who would like to have visa?

Prabhupada: No, we can give you the name if...

Ambassador: I see. Please give me the name and the nationality. I can immediately see about or write.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you can submit immediately some of the names. Because we are organizing there, and the security department there: "Oh, your visa is now complete. You please return."

Ambassador: I know.

Prabhupada: But who... We have got now temples. Who will manage that? Big, big temples I have constructed, in Navadvipa, in Hyderabad.

Ambassador: Navadvipa... Of course, Navadvipa is...

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana.

Ambassador: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes, in Vrndavana. We have got very, very big, big temples now. So those temples... The Indians are callous. They are after technology. They are not coming. So how I'll manage? How I'll manage them if they are driven away? That is my problem. But the Indian boys, they are not coming. Indian-educated... They are coming, but not very educated.

Ambassador: That's... I, I understand what you mean.

Prabhupada: Yes. The educated Indian boys, they'll accept good service. Why they come to temple?

Ambassador: I'm sorry. You are right.

Prabhupada: That is education. They are not prepared to spread this Krsna consciousness. They want some good service and enjoy life. That's all.

Ambassador: It is your Gita [indistinct] place it [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No, no. You can place there. What you want just now?

Ambassador: I just wanted to place it here, and then washroom.

Prabhupada: Yes, you can wash inside.

Paramahamsa: There's a bathroom right here. [break]

Ambassador: I'm sorry. I came immediately after lunch you know. It's really only one hour between the lunch, and one hour... So I'll remember this, Your Grace, and of course, I will do personally what I can. I've...

Prabhupada: Yes, that...

Ambassador: ...distributed the invitations to all the Indians, you see. But I'm afraid the Indians in Sweden are extremely...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ambassador: How shall I put it? Extremely material and...

Prabhupada: No, everywhere. Everywhere.

Ambassador: So I do not expect much response. I'm being very honest with you, you know.

Prabhupada: No, everywhere. In India also. Indians are everywhere.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: But they think... Familiarity breeds contempt. "Oh, Krsna we know. What you have got to teach us?" Although he doesn't know anything, [laughs] because he, he belongs to the country where Krsna appeared, therefore he knows everything. That... You know that Hindi. [Hindi]

Ambassador: Poetic. "The prophet is not honored in his own country."

Prabhupada: Yes. [Hindi] [laughs] That is this position. So do you think I shall submit some name?

Ambassador: Certainly, Your Grace, and I will look into it, and if I have got right, I will do it, or I will send...

Prabhupada: No. You are... Why you have not right? Because...

Ambassador: Yes, I've got... There are discretions.

Prabhupada: Then, then it will be useless. Because as soon as you send to Delhi, they'll refuse. So then don't try for it. If you, if you can help personally, then we'll submit the names. Otherwise, if you go in official channel, I don't expect.

Ambassador: No, I'll look at the rules you see and... I can't break the rules.

Prabhupada: So you see the rules. If you can...

Ambassador: I can't break the rules.

Prabhupada: ...then I'll submit.

Ambassador: Quite right.

Prabhupada: Then when I shall send some of my men to know that you can? When I shall send?

Ambassador: By tomorrow afternoon.

Prabhupada: All right. That's all right. Then I shall... Otherwise, useless. If you officially forward, and they reply, it will be... No.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: I do not know why. The Christian missionaries, they get missionary visa.

Ambassador: But I would... If you permit me, I am still, if I find a rule, rights, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'll be very happy to write a very strong letter to the Deputy Secretary concerned, and also...

Prabhupada: Anyway, in whatever way you can help. This is a difficulty for me, that there are chasing after our men.

Ambassador: I personally think that there is not much reason to... Because we are allowing...

Prabhupada: There is no reason at all.

Ambassador: And this is the... Hypocritical.

Prabhupada: If, if they're giving missionary visa to the Christian missionaries, what we have done? So kindly be seriously thinking and, if possible, give us. So he'll go in the afternoon and see him. If he's able, then we can send some men. And many men, they're prepared to go to India. But this botheration... They'll go, after spending so much money, and they'll be chased. That has become a problem. Otherwise, I have told some years ago that "Sometimes you'll have to import brahmanas from this place."

Ambassador: Looks like they are better brahmanas than...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: I agree with you.

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Ambassador: Because there is a... The definition of brahmana, of course, is made by Buddha's, said: [Sanskrit].

Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavad-gita it is said, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg 4.13]. And Bhagavata says,

These are clear indications that brahmana is not from particular family. And Krsna says, another place,

Everyone. Krsna is open for everyone. Krsna does not say that only... He says that kim punar brahmanah punyah. Everyone is accepted. Why not the brahmanas? But te 'pi yanti param gatim. Those who are not even born in brahmana family... Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says, kiba sudra kiba vipra...

Ambassador: Oh. Kiba sudra kiba vipra...

Prabhupada: Kiba sudra kiba vipra nyasi kene naya, yei krsna-tattva-vetta, tattva-vetta, sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]. He becomes spiritual master. It doesn't matter what he is. Sudra, or vipra. The Ramananda Raya, he was a sudra. According to social position, he was a sudra. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu took lessons from him.

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is in the Eighth Chapter of the Madhya Khanda.

Ambassador: So I'll remember it, sir.

Prabhupada: Thank you, sir.

Ambassador: And if I'm able to come for some meetings, I'll come. If I do not, that means only I am busy, you know. Because it's a little busy. But I think some of the members of our embassy will come.

Prabhupada: No, you...

Ambassador: No, I mean to the functions.

Prabhupada: Functions?

Ambassador: We'll try to come whichever is we are able to come, you know, from the embassy...

Prabhupada: That, of course, you are...

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much.

Ambassador: Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Jaya. So give him... [break] [end]