Morning Walk – December 11, 1973, Los Angeles

Krsna never says that 'You live like wretched urchins'

Prabhupada: [in car] ...innocent child, woman, they're innocent. They should be given full protection. There is no such thing. They're being exploited, keeping them unmarried, and the hotels and the clubs and the, what is called? Top..., top...

Devotees: Topless.

Prabhupada: Topless, bottomless. That is going on. It is a regular policy that girls may remain unmarried, and the drunkards and the meat-eaters may take advantage of their prostitution. This is the policy. They have no sympathy. So many hundreds and thousands of innocent girls, they're like children. And they're exposed to prostitution. They have no shelter. Now these girls who are with us, they're feeling some shelter, you see? That we are giving some shelter.

Everything should be reformed: political, social, and be, you American nation-you're favored nation, that I am always speaking-you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect, and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got?

So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leadership. [break] Rascal. Sentimental. Be excel[?] leader. [break] ...you give up all this material advancement. But there must be Krsna consciousness; otherwise it is waste of time. Live very comfortably, gentlemanly. Krsna never says that "You live like wretched urchins." Krsna never says that. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhaye [Bg 6.17]. And this was practically introduced by my Guru Maharaja, that living in palatial building and riding on first-class cars, one can become the best devotee. Not that one has to live underneath a tree, imitating Rupa Gosvami. That is not possible in this age.

That is the contribution of my Guru Maharaja, yes, that if one is sincere he can remain a first-class devotee even in this material opulence. And if he would not have introduced, then it was not possible to come here and preach this gospel. That because the principle was to live underneath a tree, go to Vrndavana and have loincloth, just like the babajis are imitating. No. Even in full material opulence we can become a perfect devotee, provided you follow the principles. It doesn't matter. Grhe va... It was sung by Narottama dasa Thakura long ago, grhe va banete thake. Either you live in the forest or in the city, opulent city, the business is gauraṅga bole rakhe: always thinking of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Narottama mage tara saṅga. Narottama dasa Thakura says, "I want their association, who is a devotee of Lord Gauraṅga." It doesn't matter whether he lives in the forest or in the opulent city. It doesn't matter. He must be devotee. [break]

Household life or in city life we should not be extravagant, unnecessarily eating, unnecessarily enjoying. No, that is not the path. "One man's food, another man's poison." We must know this philosophy. [break] ...and even we..., my health is not always going on nicely. Still, why I am trying? That is my ambition. I want to begin one revolution. Their godless civilization, against godless civilization. That is my ambition.

And the America will be the best person to be educated in this line and to lead, to become the leader. They're already leader, but they must be real leader now, so that the whole world may be happy. That I can give direction. If the topmost American gentlemen come to me, I can give them direction how they can become the world leader. Actual leader, not bogus leader. Because God has favored them so many things. And this movement has been started from America. I started this movement from New York. So it should be taken very seriously by the government.

[break] [out of car]

Hrdayananda: ...most important?

Prabhupada: Ah?

Hrdayananda: You're saying that America is the most important?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: You think...

Prabhupada: Therefore I come to your country...

Hrdayananda: So perhaps...

Prabhupada: ...because you're most important. Now you must... Under my guidance you must be really important, not false important.

Hrdayananda: So perhaps I should stay here, then, and preach.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Hrdayananda: If it is so important, I think perhaps I should stay here and help Rupanuga.

Prabhupada: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness. Because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God We Trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and we trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust.

Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say, "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is a very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man... Yes, I can trust." But simply "Trust in God," you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say?

Prajapati: That that's right, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you must take this clue, that we American, we say "In God We Trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Krsna consciousness. The government must come forward to patronize this. This is my proposition. So you write articles. You are theologicians. The America must rise up to the occasion.

They have pledged themselves, "In God We Trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust. So America has especially taken up the slogan as part of Constitution. Now there should be regular educational program, that every child, every man, every woman will trust in God. And this is Krsna consciousness. So? Am I wrong in my arguments?

Karandhara: No, correct.

Prabhupada: So why don't you take it seriously, you American boys?

Prajapati: Also in the Constitution, Srila Prabhupada, there is a thing called separation of Church and State, that they would have...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is all right. We want to educate; we don't want to take part in administration. But the administration should be under our guidance. They should take advice from us, how to do it. That is required. We are not going to be president. We are satisfied in our humble temple.

Karandhara: According to traditional American values, though, the government should not take instruction from the Church.

Prabhupada: That is their... But... Church means... Because they've seen Church is useless.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now here is scientific Church. They refuse to take advice from the Church because at the present moment Church is a bogus thing. So what is the use of taking advice from them?

Hrdayananda: That was actually... That was actually the reason they made that separation.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: They became disgusted with the...

Prabhupada: Yes. It simply becomes..., what is called? Stereotype, the Church. Just like you said they want more pay. Payment... They have no knowledge, so what is the use of taking advice from such rascals? What is the use? But here it is not like that. We know the science of God. We know who is God. It is not a vague thing. Now you try to understand. Let there be educational institution. America has got so many universities. Let there be a department.

There is already a religious department. So let the students learn the science of God. We have got so many books. Why they will not? They are actually appreciating. So this should be introduced in university, in colleges, in schools. Why they should neglect such a..., such an important scientific knowledge?

Devotee (1): When we try to introduce it sometimes, they very often say that it is sectarian.

Prabhupada: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian?

Devotee (1): They say that it represents...

Prabhupada: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human being?

Hrdayananda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.

Prabhupada: No, no. Every common man, he says, "I got my mathematics." Will it be accepted?

Hrdayananda: No.

Prabhupada: So why these things should be allowed? That is our propaganda. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will it be allowed? So we have to fight; otherwise what is the meaning of preaching?

Hrdayananda: Fight.

Prabhupada: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then where is the necessity of preaching...

Hrdayananda: Jaya!

Prabhupada: ...and propaganda?

Hrdayananda: You have to fight.

Prabhupada: You must know that they are all rascals. That I say: rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching.

Hrdayananda: Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is preaching. Why do you expect that every man will immediately go and he'll agree with you? Why do you expect like that? That is foolishness.

Hrdayananda: Jaya!

Prabhupada: You must know that everybody will disagree with you, and it is your preaching work that you will make him agree with you. That is your preaching work.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada! As your example.

Prabhupada: Yes. We do not expect that everybody will agree. Everybody will disagree. Just like our books. Say four, five years ago, nobody knew these books, so there was no market. But we have created our market. That is preaching. We have created our market. Nobody was dying for want of these books. So that is preaching. Preaching does not mean everyone is ready to accept your theories. You must expect that everybody will not accept it. Now it is your power to convince him, "Yes, you must accept." That is preaching.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: They must know what is God, how to trust Him, why we shall trust God, what is the benefit. These things should be known, properly educated.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: And we have got the science. We are not speaking blindly or, what is called, sentimentally. [japa] [break]

Prajapati: ...movement for the church today, Srila Prabhupada, is called the ecumenical movement. Ecumenical movement means all the different divergent groups are trying to get together to understand..., you know, make a common ground. Now we have the perfect platform...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prajapati: ...for giving them that common ground.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is your duty. You do it as theologician. Bring them on the platform. This so-called Church is going on. They're doing all sorts of sinful activities, and it is going on Church and religion. Therefore the importance of Christian religion is diminishing. How they can bluff all the time? [japa] [break]

Hrdayananda: When you came to America, for one year no one would help you.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Hrdayananda: When you came to America, you told us in Pittsburgh that for one year no one would help you, you had no place.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Hrdayananda: Jaya. [Prabhupada chuckles] The perfect example. [break] Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness. The real help for real friend is my Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness. Suhrdam sarva-bhutanam [Bg 5.29]. He's not only my friend, He's friend of, even of the ant. That is Krsna consciousness.

Yasomatinandana: [indistinct] ...when Prabhupada didn't get help from anybody...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasomatinandana: ...he just got help from Krsna.

Prabhupada: Krsna is the friend of everyone. We don't take His help, that is the difficulty. He says, He's guaranteed, that "If you just surrender to Me, I'll give you all protection." Such a friend who can give, there. But they'll not do that. Actually, if one trusts in God, then everything is there, perfectly.

Prajapati: So if they did trust in God, they would not have all these problems today.

Prabhupada: No. It is factual. Just like in modern..., immediate problem is the petrol. Nobody trusts in God. The Arabians, they're thinking that this oil, "Our oil." But actually, his father has not manufactured this oil; it is God's oil. None of them believe in God, either the Arabians or the others. Therefore there is crisis. It is practical. Is the petrol manufactured by man? So why a section of man is claiming, "It is my petrol"? If somebody says, "It is my Pacific Ocean," what is this nonsense? Because they are going on under this nonsense ideas, therefore there is problem.

Devotee (1): Sometimes they claim the Pacific Ocean as their own.

Prabhupada: Ah? Ah?

Devotee (1): Some countries claim, you know, twelve..., three hundred miles of the ocean is being their ocean.

Prabhupada: That's all right, three hundred miles, let him claim. But not the all. [devotees chuckle] If I say, "Now the sandy beach, two miles mine," you can say, but what is that talk? [laughs] But it belongs to the government. You can say... A child may come, "Oh, this is my area. You cannot come." [laughter] That is going on. But is that sanity? The father will laugh: "All right, let him, demarcation, his area." So this foolishness is going on. Our philosophy... Isavasyam idam sarvam . "Everything belongs to God." This is philosophy.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: But these rascals, they won't accept it, although it is fact. Although it is fact. But they will not accept it. Therefore preaching required, education required, to bring him into sense. This is fact. This Pacific Ocean, it does not belong to any nation or any person; it belongs to God. This moon belongs to God, the sky belongs to God. But they're thinking, "It is mine." And therefore there is trouble. Just like government. The Senate is there, so they sit down together, and if there is any problem they discuss together, they find out the solution. Similarly, they have got this United Nation. Why do they not consider, "First of all let us settle to whom this planet belongs"?

Hrdayananda: Jaya.

Prabhupada: They're United Nation. First of all let us settle. We are fighting: "I'm Arabian," "I'm Indian," "I'm American," "I'm Englishman..." "All right, let us settle actually to whom this planet belongs." They cannot do that, because all of them are thieves. None of them will agree that it belongs to God. Real fact, that they will not agree. Then how there can be peace? Because they're all cheaters. They want to cheat God. God's property, they're claiming "ours." All thieves and rogues, so how there can be any settlement? There cannot be any settlement.

Devotee (1): If we approached them and we said something like that, they would laugh.

Prabhupada: That's because they're rogues. Against their ideas. "Why you're laughing like fools? Does it belong to you or your father, this whole world? Why you are laughing like a fool?" You should have said like that. "You're laughing not like a gentleman; you're laughing like a fool. Can you say that it belongs to your father? Or you'll be allowed to stay here in America? After some years you'll be kicked out. Do you know where you are going? Why you are laughing like fools?" This should be the answer.

Karandhara: The Arabs, some of the Arabs, they say they believe in God, but that everyone else is...

Prabhupada: Nobody believes in God. That is our proposition. Nobody believes... All this bogus. Now they should come to understand what is God, this, in this Krsna consciousness movement. Nobody believes, neither know what is God. Here we are giving the name, the address, the form, the activities-everything of God-Krsna consciousness. Let all the Arabians, all the Americans, let come to us. Those who are chief men, intelligent man, we shall convince them. That is our preaching.

Karandhara: There's one Arab leader, he goes to the temple five times a day, he doesn't eat meat, er, doesn't drink liquor or smoke or go out with women...

Prabhupada: Yes, these are..., these are prohibited in Muhammadan religion.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. But still it is good. To some extent, he's advanced.

Karandhara: He doesn't allow any liquor shops or tobacco shops in his country.

Prabhupada: Yeah, that's good.

Karandhara: [indistinct]

Hrdayananda: Which country is that?

Prabhupada: All these things are sinful. To drink is sinful amongst the Muhammadans. To smoke, sinful. They have got austerities. Their animal-killing is once in a year, Bakra-Eid. Only animals should be sacrificed in masjid. There are so many things. Every religion there is good thing, but then nobody follows. Simply defined, "I am Christian," "I'm Muhammadan," "I am Hindu..."

That's all. He's neither of them. He's simply a animal. He's simply animal. Just like these rascal Christian. The first proposition is, "Thou shall not kill," and see, they're simply killing, and they're claiming "Christians." Just see. All rascals, and they're claiming, "We're follower of Christian." [break] ...propaganda is to teach all these rascals. Therefore we say generally rascals. It may be very strong... That professor was referring, but "Yes, everyone is rascal." You know that professor?

Karandhara: Yes. He thought "rascals" was a bit harsh.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says rascal; therefore...

Yasomatinandana: But he... The professor, when he left he said that "Prabhupada is very, very gentle," he said. He's the most gentle man he's ever seen.

Karandhara: Gentle like a rose, and strong like a thunderbolt. [break]

Prabhupada: ...India. Just start this movement seriously.

Yasomatinandana: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes. And Bombay is the best center.

Yasomatinandana: I'm being very enthused when you say these things to me.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is great field to conquer, and you are educated and intelligent, capable. You have got qualification, you can do this very good work.

Yasomatinandana: We think that it may be impractical to go in the politics or in like that. But then when you say so firmly, all the whole..., immediately our eyes get open, you see? "Yes, actually, this is possible."

Prabhupada: Why not possible?

Yasomatinandana: What is impossible for a Krsna's devotee?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasomatinandana: Krsna is the supreme controller.

Prabhupada: Yes. That conviction you must have. If you are sincere to Krsna, if you are actually serving Krsna, where is impossible to you? Where is impossible? There's nothing impossible.

Yasomatinandana: Mukham karoti vacalam paṅgum laṅghayate girim.

Prabhupada: That one of my important Godbrothers says. He's sincere. All others, they are rascals. He says that "In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said, prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama . So we were thinking that this is imagination, that Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult would be spread all over the world, everyone will chant. So you have done it." So he's appreciating in that way. "But we are simply thinking that it is not possible; it is simply imagination. But that you have made it possible." So that is his appreciation.

Hrdayananda: Because you are so faithful. So [indistinct], more firmer. [break]

Devotee (3): That's what he says.

Prabhupada: He says?

Devotee (3): He says that, yes.

Prabhupada: What they said?

Devotee (3): Ah... They believe him.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee (3): The Maharaj-ji...

Devotee (4): He said that... He said that everyone in the world will become his devotees, but we'll... The Krsna conscious devotees will be the last. But they'll be the best.

Prabhupada: Kick his face. [everyone laughs] So that means unless the Krsna conscious student go there, he is never perfect. That is to be understood.

Karandhara: So we tell them, "If we're the best devotees, then you come and surrender to us."

Prabhupada: Yes. He admits this.

Hrdayananda: Karandhara, does Prabhupada know about what happened in Houston?

Karandhara: Yeah, he saw the article.

Hrdayananda: Oh, you saw the article on Houston, how we chanted.

Yasomatinandana: Actually, Prabhupada, his books are full of rubbish, garbage. There is no knowledge in the book, or any philosophy or anything. They're simply...

Prabhupada: What is his book? They do not believe in book.

Yasomatinandana: Still, he puts out a magazine, called Broadcasting His Glories. And in the magazine he quotes some verses from Bhagavad-gita. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Just see.

Yasomatinandana: He supports that yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. So he says that... Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that "I come whenever there is decline of religiosity." So he claims that he is now Krsna.

Prabhupada: Anyway, he accepts authority of Krsna.

Yasomatinandana: Yes. He says that Krsna is God.

Devotee (3): But now he is Krsna. And he wears Krsna's crown and he plays Krsna's flute. He wears Krsna's crown. They give him Krsna's crown and he wears it, and he plays Krsna's flute. Or he says it is Krsna's flute, and he plays it.

Prabhupada: Anyway, he is making his business with Krsna's crown and Krsna's flute.

Yasomatinandana: Like Paundraka.

Prabhupada: Yes. So Krsna is accepted as authority. So...

Yasomatinandana: He is like King Paundraka.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: Imitation is flattery.

Prabhupada: Best flattery. He is flattering Krsna. [break] "Why the Krsna devotees do not come to you?"

Yasomatinandana: Once a devotee met somebody on the street, and he said, "Actually I am God, you know." And the devotee said, "Oh, yes. You are God?" So he said, "I am your devotee. Why don't you give me a million dollars?" he said. "I am your devotee. I have dedicated my life to you. Why don't you give me some money?"

Prabhupada: Who said?

Yasomatinandana: A devotee said. One guy said that he was God, he said, "I am God." Then devotee said that "Oh, you are God? Then I am your devotee. Why don't you give me some money?" [break]

Prabhupada: What is, machine, it is called?

Devotee (5): It is a sand comber..., cleaner. It cleans the sand.

Prabhupada: Anyway, this machine is working to keep this beach very clean. So we can understand that there is some management behind this. Similarly, the nature is working so nicely. How we can deny that behind this there is a system of management? How we can deny it?

[break] ...things are going on very nicely. The sun is rising exactly in time, the moon is rising exactly in time, the water is flowing in its own orbit. It does not violate. So if things are going on so nicely, how you can deny, that "There is no management behind it"? How you can deny it? It is very natural to understand immediately.

And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that "What you are speaking that nature is doing, yes, nature is doing, but under My direction." Just like the machine. Take it as nature. The machine is working, but the driver is there. Without the driver, how the machine can simply work? [break] ...life is meant. That is Vedic instruction, to know that management, who is the supreme manager. That is human life. Athato brahma-jijnasa. Otherwise animal life. [break]

Prajapati: In the last World War there was a very famous German propagandist named Goebbels who wrote that if one controls the communications, the media, the radio and television, newspapers, like this, he actually controls what people think. So we've not put so much emphasis on that so far in our Krsna consciousness movement, actually controlling the linkage of communication. In the future should we be more and more concerned with that?

Prabhupada: What is that future? What do you want to do in future?

Prajapati: Actually permeate all the media with Krsna consciousness propaganda, not simply just writing, but actually all aspects of...

Prabhupada: Yes, you can take advantage all this media. That we are doing. Just like we are taking advantage of this microphone. We are not rejecting, "Oh, it is material. Why should we take?" Nothing material. Anything used for Krsna is spiritual. Material means what is not used for Krsna. That is material. You are materialistic when you are not used for Krsna. And as soon as you are utilized for Krsna, you are spiritualistic. That is the difference.

Here we say, "This is material world." This is material world because everyone has forgotten Krsna. Therefore it is material world. So if they come into Krsna consciousness, then it is spiritual. [break] ...conscious people now challenge this rascal that "We are searching after Krsna-we are not searching; we are devotee of Krsna-and you are posing yourself as Krsna. So show us some Krsna's power, we immediately come to you."

Yasomatinandana: He says that "I show it to only my devotees." He says that "You have to be my devotee to see my power."

Devotee (3): So we are Krsna's devotee, so if he is Krsna...

Prabhupada: But when Krsna lifted the mountain, it was not meant for the devotees, it was meant for everyone.

Yasomatinandana: But because he is rascal, that's what he says.

Prabhupada: "So you, why you are simply thinking of Krsna..., your devotee? You show us. We don't believe you that you are Krsna, but if you want us to come to you, you show this. We shall come immediately. Why you make it confidential? Make it public. Then we come immediately. This is our condition. But because you do not show it, therefore we know you are a rascal number one. Why shall I come to you?"

Yasomatinandana: "Anybody... If you claim that you are God, then anybody can claim that he is God."

Prabhupada: Yes, "Anybody can claim. But we think you are a rascal. Therefore we do not come. Now, if you can show us something like Krsna, then we shall immediately come. Our difficulty will be solved. We shall see Krsna. But we know that you are a rascal." You go there. Go there, somebody, and tell like that.

Prajapati: No, there is one rascal, Prabhupada, who can do tricks. His name is Sai Baba. He can make jewels appear, give people photographs of himself, give them to people like tricks.

Prabhupada: But another rascal will be victim of that tricks. Why shall I accept him as God?

Karandhara: Besides, they're insignificant tricks.

Prabhupada: Insignificant tricks. So if gold is the standard of becoming God, then there is gold mine. So who has created the gold mine, I shall accept Him God. Why shall I you? If gold is the standard, why a little chataka of...? We are not so fools. You can make this trick for other fools, not to us.

Yasomatinandana: I told his mahatma, his main disciple... He says that "Actually, book is not important," he says, "but experience is important." And I said, "Yes, there is experience. This is Krsna consciousness experience, by which you feel..."

Prabhupada: No, no. Book means experience. Book means experience, not rascaldom. What is book? A scientific book means one scientist who has experienced, he is writing book. So book means experience. Without book, where is experience?

Yasomatinandana: So he says that "You take the knowledge. You see the light, and you take the knowledge from Guru Mahara-ji."

Prabhupada: But you have taken the knowledge. Why cannot you describe it? That means although you have got your Guru Maharaja, still you are in darkness. So what is the use of this Guru Maharaja? You are in darkness, because you cannot explain. You're asking me to go to Guru Maharaja. But if you are enlightened, why you cannot explain? Therefore you are in darkness. They are useless as guru. You have not... He's a garu. He's garu.

Yasomatinandana: Garu is mad, crazy.

Prajapati: They claim to see light inside, Srila Prabhupada, but we say, "If we hit you on head, you will see light inside also."

Prabhupada: Yes, that everyone sees. What is your credit? If I kick on your face, you will find the light. So come here, I shall kick on your face and you'll see the light. [laughter] There is no need of Guru Maha...

Yasomatinandana: His disciples are usually very naive and very foolish.

Prabhupada: Unless they are foolish, how they can go there? Anyone who goes there, that means he is a foolish. That is... That is the test. "A man is known by his company." Because all these rascals and fools go there, therefore he is a fool and rascal. It is concluded.

Hrdayananda: It's a fact. They're all less intelligent.

Yasomatinandana: I told him that "Have you seen Guru Maha..., Krsna's universal form? Krsna displayed His universal form just so that these rascals may not cheat you." They said, "I have seen universal form." I said, "What did you see in the universal form? Did you see Siva, Brahma, all that?" He said, "I saw light, white light, in the universal form." That's all he saw in the universal form: white light. Factually they don't know what universal form is.

Prabhupada: No, no, don't waste your time with that. They are all third-class rascals. Not even first-class rascals.

Devotee (3): They say that we are searching after the saguna form. They are looking for the visvarupa, and we are looking for saguna.

Yasomatinandana: The Visvarupa also has a form.

Prabhupada: No, no. Why do you waste your time by talking with these rascals? It is...Take it for granted, they are set of rascals. That's all. [break]

Karandhara: "...to teach you about Guru Maharaj-ji." So we just threw him out. [break]

Prabhupada: "If we want your teaching, we shall go to you. Why you have taken the trouble to come here? Please go out." That's all.

Yasomatinandana: Even though, Prabhupada, we chastise them so severely, somehow or other they still have a soft corner for the devotees. They are feeling guilty, you know.

Prabhupada: They must have. Yes, they must have. They know that they are culprit. But for their party's sake they are thinking or saying, "We are right. We are right."

Yasomatinandana: Yes, yes. 'Cause they are not sincere enough.

Hrdayananda: We have one devotee who was a member there. Now he is a devotee. There is one of our members, he is just a young boy, and he went to the Guru Maharaj-ji, and then when he heard our philosophy, now he is with us. Banabhatta, name is. Now he is a nice devotee. Just as you always say that a sincere person cannot be misled.

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna will help him. [japa] [break]

Yasomatinandana: This whole world is really nirvisesa-sunyavadi.

Prabhupada: Yes, they have become fools and rascals. That's all.

Yasomatinandana: So significant, this prayer. The whole world, including India. [break]

Prabhupada: ...difficulty is that because they are poverty-stricken, they want some money now. They are thinking that "About God we shall think later on."

Yasomatinandana: Is it all right to blame the government in public, Prabhupada, in India?

Prabhupada: No, what is that government? Government is elected by the public. If public is polluted, the government must be polluted. [greeting someone:] Hare Krsna. Public votes somebody, "Take charge of government." So if the public selects somebody nonsense, the government must be nonsense.

Yasomatinandana: Yes. In other words, to tell the public that "You should elect God-conscious leaders to have a better society."

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is our propaganda, that "This is the standard of leadership. So if you elect first-class leader, then your government will be first class. But if you elect some rogues and thieves, drunkards, then how you can expect good government?" This is natural. After all, democracy means the public elect. The public does not know how to distinguish the rogues and thieves.

Therefore the rogues and thieves take the advantage of it and, somehow or other, and take vote and sit on the presidential chair. That is difficulty. Just like our propaganda is... We are not making any propaganda in the beginning, that "Stop this cow slaughter." We are educating people, "Don't eat meat." If people become educated, automatically the slaughterhouse will be closed. This is our propaganda. "Don't drink." So if people give up drinking, automatically the drinking business will be closed. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [Prabhupada gets in the car]

Prajapati: You have given us this instruction, Srila Prabhupada, to confront these leaders. We understand that this is your very much wish, and we shall do everything we can to try to fulfill your desire.

Prabhupada: Yes, do it. Do it.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. [break]

Prabhupada: If you can educate the people, "Don't vote for the rascals. Just try to understand who is the real man, who is the real leader."

Hrdayananda: So political program is very important.

Prabhupada: Yes. If the public is educated to select right type of leader, then automatically... And it is very easy thing, that "Leader must be faithful. A leader must know what is God and how to trust in Him. And he must be free from all sinful activities. The pillars of sinful activities are these." This is our propaganda. [end]