August 17, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time.
Śyāmasundara: What he was telling me was that the table itself has a jīva soul, that the table is a person.
Prabhupāda: No no.
Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking. 'Cause I said, "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question.
Śyāmasundara:That's what completely threw me off. I thought, "Oh..." That means the table is a person, this is a person, this is a...
Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. Then it is also proved that every jīva soul is individual. Although they are living combinedly, everything is individual.
Revatīnandana: Well, doesn't... That's all right then. Now the...
Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. He was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still, they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, they create... a small shining particles, combined together, molecules. So everything is combined spirit particles.
Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us, everything.
Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvam idam khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when they are covered, that is called material exis...
Śyāmasundara: Each jīva is...
Prabhupāda: Just as sunshine is not covered, it is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, there is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something, it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. That covering is also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. And then, by the same energy it is dissipated also. So the conclusion is living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material.
Revatīnandana: But this, the body itself is sort of a manifestation of ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.
Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. Then I know that I am not this body. Now, the question is...
Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance.
Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction, between the nature of the soul and the nature of the body.
Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.
Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedābheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.
Śyāmasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?
Śyāmasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter.
Prabhupāda: But that body means ignorance. Śarīra avidyā jāla. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.
Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all these smaller cells. I organize them into my big body.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. You try to understand. Covered by something. The same example. The sunshine is there, it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally, the sunshine is everything. Is it clear?
Śyāmasundara: So how do I create matter that is my body? How do I create...
Prabhupāda: You are creating. You are creating actually.
Śyāmasundara: By eating and...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair; it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing—I am growing, I am creating. But I do not know. That is ignorance.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask...
Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. These are very higher understanding. For public should be, "This is matter, this is spirit." That's all.
Revatīnandana: Yes, but one of the devotees asked me one time, "Why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernails continue to grow."
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Never grows.
Revatīnandana: Huh? They just play like that. And observe.
Prabhupāda: It decomposes.
Revatīnandana: But they say hair continues to come out sometimes from dead bodies.
Śyāmasundara: I think you said once ... You answered that sometimes the fan turns a little bit after the plug.
Revatīnandana: Yes. Mechanism, bodily mechanism has pulled the plug. That's what I said. Some material mechanism is still functioning like a machine.
Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe just like the fan is stopped, but still moving. Like that.
Revatīnandana: So there are many different manifestations of energies. It is the oneness that they're all Kṛṣṇa's energies. But there is also diversities.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya bhedābheda. You cannot clearly distinguish. It is one and different, at the same time. It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.
Śyāmasundara: Somehow or other, we create our own ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything is spirit but at the same time, not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4], "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that everything is in Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is not there? He says like that.
Revatīnandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is matter.
Śyāmasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...
Prabhupāda: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there?
Revatīnandana: Not as plenary expansion.
Revatīnandana: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.
Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also. Jīva is also plenary expansion.
Revatīnandana: Plenary? I thought plenary means...
Prabhupāda: Not plenary. That is also expansion. It is called vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, vibhinnāṁśa. Viṣṇu-tattva is svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Both of them are part and parcel.
Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion.
Revatīnandana: So svāṁśa is plenary.
Revatīnandana: And vibhinnāṁśa is part of plenary.
Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom, it is vibhinnāṁśa.
Prabhupāda: No. Both of them there.
Revatīnandana: Both of them? In the atom.
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone there.
Prabhupāda: Whenever the Kṛṣṇa is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter)
Haṁsadūta: But in the Brahma-saṁhitā it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness.
Prabhupāda: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there.
Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya.
Śyāmasundara: But this body of a table, it's not an individual personality is it? There's not one jīva soul in charge of this table.
Revatīnandana: In other words the table itself is not a person, but within there are many persons.
Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that are in the...
Prabhupāda: God is also there.
Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa is there.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Kṛṣṇa, but we cannot see. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa but it appears it is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya-bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable.
Revatīnandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit...
Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear.
Revatīnandana: I know. But still it's, not clear, but clear, there is some distinction, where a distinction...
Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.
Revatīnandana: Yes, simultaneously.
Prabhupāda: Simultaneous. Now, which one will we accept? Therefore inconceivable.
Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.
Revatīnandana: Everything is related in Kṛṣṇa.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But there's also, amongst the related things. There are related things because there is also diversity amongst them.
Prabhupāda: Must be.
Revatīnandana: That's right. In preaching, in the movement, that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living...
Prabhupāda: But there is diversity. Why not?
Revatīnandana: And the brahmajyoti. They are saying...
Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul. And brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. This is a function. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire. But still, heat is not fire. You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away.
Revatīnandana: That's right. So the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.
Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?
Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Śyāmasundara: So they become separated.
Haṁsadūta: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Kṛṣṇa, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency?
Prabhupāda: That you consider. That we imagine.
Haṁsadūta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.
Prabhupāda: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Forgetfulness. They are covered by ignorance.
Revatīnandana: The cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhinnāṁśa expansion. Correct?
Revatīnandana: But he's remembering. He is remembering, therefore he is...
Prabhupāda: He may not remember.
Prabhupāda: Just like when cowherds boy were playing, they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know.
Revatīnandana: Yes, but they love Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: The love is there. When the love is there, that is spiritual.
Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. That is not fallen.
Śyāmasundara: They're not separated any more.
Prabhupāda: That you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world, they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Revatīnandana: The thing that was bothering me when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti, if it is jīvas, that they're all fallen souls, then I thought...
Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere. When Kṛṣṇa is forgotten, that is fallen.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was just like in a room there is so many particles of light. Already inconceivable. And, then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable...
Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Separated.
Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position.
Prabhupāda: They're not as fallen as those who are in this material.
Revatīnandana: That's right. But still if they go there, they will sometimes come back here again.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not pure. They are not pure. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified.
Revatīnandana: Are they less fallen because they are doing some service by lighting it up?
Prabhupāda: It is clearly stated: aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence, aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated.
Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence. So they realize...
Prabhupāda: They think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says "No, it is not yet liberated." Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Still there is contamination.
Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then...
Prabhupāda: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantāya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.
Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny.
Prabhupāda: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand.
Revatīnandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others.
Prabhupāda: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better.
Revatīnandana: No, but what I said is that...
Prabhupāda: That "I cannot understand," this understanding.
Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up. Then just simply love Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is real understanding, that "Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can, whatever is my, in my capacity." That is perfection.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But still, we deal with this philosophy for...
Prabhupāda: Yes. On the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says, we can understand that. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible.
Revatīnandana: But even... Just like this book, this is for convincing people. This book is for convincing them to understand.
Prabhupāda: No, still, we understand better than them.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big that He is understandable even by us, and what to, about these rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position, that "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him. And what, rascal, you can understand?" The attitude should be taken like that.
Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says...
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all. And we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense, people try to understand a thing without, by inspecting it.
Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. He has no capacity, still, he wants... And when he's caught that "You have no capacity," "No, I am trying. I am trying." He won't say that "I have no capacity."
Śyāmasundara: Or "I will understand."
Prabhupāda: "I will understand."
Śyāmasundara: "In the future."
Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible. And then when we don't understand...
Śyāmasundara: Yes. We can't extend it any further by our own...
Prabhupāda: No. Don't try to extend also.
Śyāmasundara: Like that business about the soul in the table. I just completely changed everything we've done so far.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life. That's all. Let me execute that."
Revatīnandana: That was semantics. That was word usage. That's why we got confused. And now I can clear up the confusion I stirred up. Thank you very much.
Haṁsadūta: But I have one more question Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: On the light.
Haṁsadūta: In our world here, there are material scientists and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance...
Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different.
Haṁsadūta: I know. But I mean, there must be... Suppose, on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted in his prayers that people..."Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part, I say I never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? So even Brahmā cannot understand. What we? He says, "The other rascals may say." Where is that Brahma-stotra? In the first part, find out.
Haṁsadūta: No. It's in the Process of Creation isn't it?
Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa Book. Where is that...? This is second part. I say always that...
Śyāmasundara: Second part?
Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. No, no. It is not in Volume Two.
Revatīnandana: It's in Volume One, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. When I went to Paris, they had gotten all confused. Someone was thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā is not a pure devotee, because...
Prabhupāda: In one sense, not. In one sense.
Revatīnandana: By his behavior sometimes...
Prabhupāda: No, no, behavior... Because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire.
Haṁsadūta: But at the same time, he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Revatīnandana: Does he become a pure devotee? Otherwise how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma-saṁhitā? Also he's the head of our disciplic succession. That's why I said, "No. He's a pure devotee." How can he be the head of our disciplic succession if he's not a pure devotee?
Haṁsadūta: He says, "My dear Lord, people may say that I am the master of all Vedic knowledge and I am supposed to be the creator of this universe. But it has been proved that I cannot understand Your personality, even though You are present before me just like a child. You are playing with Your boyfriends, calves and cows, which might imply that You do not even have sufficient education. You are appearing just like a village boy carrying Your food in Your hand and searching for Your calves, and yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Your body is not material." He says, "Even though You are standing before me, I cannot..."
Haṁsadūta: He says, "Even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand." So people they think they understand it only when God is nowhere near.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand; what we can understand? So without bothering ourself... Jñāne prayāsam. Jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. Namanta, give up this practice. Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Submissive means that "We cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let us serve." That's all. And develop your dormant love. That is perfection.
Haṁsadūta: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything."
Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. (pause) Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva san-mukharitaṁ bhavadīya-vārtāṁ jīvanti. [break] ...in temple you'll have to sleep. Yes. So also keep it in mind that unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center. Because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association, he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down. That which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he could not manage. There was debts and he became disgusted. You see.
Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in Germany, I have, like for instance, in Munchen, in Munich...
Prabhupāda: At least, must be two, three men; otherwise don't open.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, there are two, three men, but I visit them regularly.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Visit. Keep them alive. "Simply because we have opened a center, the business is finished." No. You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution. Busy. That is alive.
Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, so many Indian temples or churches, they think, "The church is there; everything is finished." No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale.
Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. Everywhere we attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Come on. So how you were allowed to enter?
Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Last time you had difficulty.
Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was...
Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news?
Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there.
Prabhupāda: Your health is all right?
Śivānanda: My health is fine.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities.
Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudama was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1971/aug/london/august/17/1971
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