Locke, John

Locke, John (Syamasundara)

Syamasundara: So now we will discuss a philosopher; British philosopher, called John Locke. His basic philosophy is that there are no innate ideas, that there is no inborn knowledge. When a child is born he has a blank slate, tabula rasa...

Prabhupada: This is nonsense… This is nonsense. He is not a good philosopher, third-class. The child immediately sucks the breast of the mother, it knows, "Here is my food." And unless the breast is offered she cries. So wherefrom this knowledge comes-unless he had previous experience? Therefore he comes with knowledge. The first knowledge is expressed, "tka, tka, tka, ka... Where is my breast, breast, breast." Mother pushes the nipple, he stops. How does he explain this? If you push something else he will not stop.

Syamasundara: Well he says that, "all knowledge is a product of sense impressions."

Prabhupada: But where he got this impression, just after, immediately after birth? That impression must be previous.

Syamasundara: Hm. He says that, "just because there is a universal agreement that this does not prove any idea to be innate and that there are no..."

Prabhupada: This is proof, unless he has got previous experience why he cries and when his demand is fulfilled, he immediately stops?

Syamasundara: He says that, "the ideas of morality and ideas of God are not innate."

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. Idea of God is there, idea of innate is there.

Syamasundara: At the time of birth.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: At the time…

Prabhupada: At the time of birth, this is one of the example, and then as he grows then he learns to offer obeisances to something; great incidents. He may say out of fear or out of veneration, but there is such thing. I know where from it... This is the, the tendency of fearing, I know, my second son, when he was only four years old. So I went to zoo, so from a distant place, as soon as he saw the tigers, he disagreed to go there. He stopped. Why? Wherefrom this came? And another incidence I saw, when I was going to take bath in the Ganges and the Ganges was at that time overflooded, so seeing that vast mass of water he did not like to get down. Why? Wherefrom this comes?... He was never taught, I... He was never taught what is tiger or what is... No.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But he stopped and I did not insist that, "go on and see," no. He'd known it-don't go there. And that is a shock.

Syamasundara: He says that...

Prabhupada: That means he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: Then, then he is nonsense.

Syamasundara: He says that, "there are two types of ideas..."

Prabhupada: I think he is not very famous philosopher?

Syamasundara: Oh very famous.

Prabhupada: He was famous?

Syamasundara: He is the basis of all British philosophy.

Prabhupada: Acha.

Syamasundara: Rests on him. They're all empiricists, British, they believe only what can be perceived with the senses is real. Very British attitude. [chuckles]

Prabhupada: But they do not agree that the senses are imperfect? Just like I have got my seeing power, I don't see beyond the wall, what is happening.

Syamasundara: Hm. Well they are basically utilitarians...

Prabhupada: So how, how you can believe your eyes? Suppose something is going on beyond the walls, you have got eyes, you can not see, but if somebody comes, "Such and such thing is going on there." But if you say, "Unless I see I..." So that is mean that the things which are going on there, they are called false-because he can not see?

Syamasundara: No, not necessarily, there is…, we'll get into that later in this discussion how epistemology, how knowledge is gained, types of knowledge. But he says that, "there are two..."

Prabhupada: He says that, "unless anything is perceived by the senses."

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: "Which is not truth."

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: He says like that.

Syamasundara: Yes. All knowledge is... [chuckles]

Prabhupada: He does not accept that our senses are imperfect?

Syamasundara: Yes, but he is more or less an agnostic, that if something may exist beyond our senses but we can not know what it is so it is not worth our knowing.

Prabhupada: Why? [laughs] Then why he is philosophizing? It is not worth to understand his philosophy?

Syamasundara: No, it's not worth knowing what lies beyond the senses. If we can not understand it with our senses...

Prabhupada: He is a, he is talking something which is beyond the senses of some person…

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: …therefore he is talking nonsense, therefore is it is not worthwhile to hear.

Syamasundara: [laughs] Basically these British are utilitarian in their basic belief that if some knowledge can be utilized for my practical gain then that's all that's needed. I don't need to know anything beyond.

Prabhupada: This philosopher is talking which is not knowledge at all. [knock at door?]
[aside] Yes?

Syamasundara: So John Locke says that, "there are two types of ideas: those which come from sensations or immediate ideas and those which arrive through inner reflection by cogitating on the immediate ideas we can produce a second set of ideas through reflection."

Prabhupada: Ah, that is known as: pratyaksa, paraksa but still one has to go higher, pratyaksa paraksa aparaksa, then adhoksaja then aprakrta. So these are different stages, pratyaksa means: "direct," paraksa means: "knowledge received from others," aparaksa means: "after judging both the direct knowledge and knowledge received from authorities," that is aparaksa. Then adhoksaja, adhoksaja means: "beyond the limits of direct perception." Then aprakrta, aprakrta means: "spiritual."

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: So different stages of advancement for coming to the spiritual knowledge. So the direct perception is only material.

Syamasundara: He says that, "after the mind…, only after the mind acquires some sense experience may it have reflections and ideas dealing with inner sensory operations." In other words only after getting some knowledge of this world through my senses can I have thoughts and ideas. [loud traffic] My thoughts and ideas depend upon my sensory perceptions.

Prabhupada: I could not follow.

Syamasundara: My thoughts, my ideas, I can only have thoughts and I can only have ideas because I have sense impressions.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Only because I have sense impressions can I have ideas or thoughts.

Prabhupada: Yes... So? But that ideas is not always truth. Just like I have got knowledge of gold and I have got knowledge of a mountain, so I am dreaming a golden mountain, but this is not always truth. Really, this is, this is a creation of my impressions. But this is…, still this is not truth.

Syamasundara: Later, later we'll get into his, the criterion for establishing truth, the truth of an idea, but at, right now, it's just how one gets ideas-that he is discussing.

Prabhupada: Ideas, he is feeling by different senses, by seeing, by touching, by smelling, by tasting.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: We have got different senses.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: And we are getting different ideas.

Syamasundara: Yes. So he says, "these ideas are of two types: simple ideas and complex ideas."

Prabhupada: Complex idea is that golden mountain.

Syamasundara: Hm. Yes. First of all there are four types of simple ideas that he describes. First type is an idea that we get from one sense only, we see color, we taste something, we hear a sound, that's a simple idea. The second type of simple idea is where two or more senses combined get some impression, like we see some space or we hear, we see forms or we perceive motion, that requires more than one sense. And the third type of simple idea is that kind of idea which we get from reflection only, by using our power of thinking and our power of...

Prabhupada: That is due to different material condition. Just like when you experience ether, how do you experience, by ether?

Syamasundara: Ether?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pradyumna: By sound.

Prabhupada: By sound.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: So ether you can not see, neither you can touch. So as the material condition changes the sense perception also changes.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Ether is, there is only sound, then ksitiḥ, ap, teja, marut, then the air. Air we can [perceive] by touch, sense fire, [loud traffic] fire by hot.

Syamasundara: See.

Prabhupada: That, yes, then water, the smell. That is also there and form is also there.

Pradyumna: All the previous [indistinct]. [loud traffic]

Prabhupada: Yes. All the previous are there. And on the earth all the...

Syamasundara: Taste.

Prabhupada: All the experiences are there.

Syamasundara: Hah. He says, "for instance a simple idea like…"

Pradyumna: "What is the question?

Syamasundara: Ha.

Pradyumna: If the ether is perceived by sound so how is mind and intelligence perceived? That's just [indistinct]…

Prabhupada: Through the air. Air. I hear sounds.

Pradyumna: Yes but so...

Prabhupada: My mind takes an impression from the air.

Pradyumna: But the ether comes from the mind and mind comes from intelligence. So how is mind and intelligence perceived?

Prabhupada: Well when mind is created, the beginning creation, mind is there, every living entity has got mind, intelligence, ego but the present mind, intelligence, they are false. There is real mind, just like our, this present body is false-it is covered. As spirit soul I have got body but this body is simply covering. Similarly mind is covered, ego is covered, intelligence is covered, but when we are uncovered by this material condition we get our pure mind, pure intelligence, pure identity. So this devotional service means to bring the soul to his original condition. That is devotional service, Krsna consciousness, pure mind, pure ego, everything pure: tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Purified in connection with, in colobaration with the Supreme Spirit-purified. The same example: the iron rod becoming warmer, warmer then it becomes red-hot, at that time it is fire. So the purificatory process is devotional service, Krsna consciousness and when one is perfectly pure he has nothing to do with this material mind, body, intelligence, ego, he is simply-pure spiritual.

Syamasundara: Locke is still trying to find basis for knowledge through the sens…, beginning with the sense perceptions and the simple ideas that one receives through the senses also include those ideas that one gets by reflection. For instance remembering or judging or believing. These simple ideas are aroused by the reflection, or thinking.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: Believing, remembering, judging, these simple ideas. The mind receives knowledge from the senses and is able to reflect on it.

Prabhupada: Yes, mind receives knowledge from senses, that we also say. Then?

Syamasundara: Then there is another...

Prabhupada: Then there is psychology: thinking, feeling, willing. Then there is judgement, then there is work.

Syamasundara: Work?

Prabhupada: Yes. You apply something. You have got many impression, beautiful impression, you plan something then you think, feel and then put the plan into action.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: That is working

Syamasundara: And he says, "there is another type of simple idea which comes both from sensation and reflection combined. Such as pleasure, pain, knowledge of existence," etc. He says that, "these simple ideas combine to form complex or abstract ideas," just like for example the concept of God. This is an enlargement upon the simple ideas of existence, time, knowledge, power, etc, which we combine to make a complex idea.

Prabhupada: That is not complex idea. It is perfect idea. But God is so great that naturally He becomes complex to the ordinary man.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: What is that telephone?

Syamasundara: He says, "there are three types of complex ideas. The first type of complex idea is a mode or an idea which depends upon substances such as roundness, hardness, motion," like that. And, "the second type of complex idea is a relation," that is a comparison between one idea and another idea, whereby…, whereby they either agree or disagree. And, "the third type of complex idea is a substance or a body, a particular thing which subsists by itself." Now his idea is that substances exist as things in themselves but the question becomes, "What produces the substances?" And this gives rise to his agnostic point of view because he says, "we can only know the quality of a substance but we can not know what the substance is itself or where it comes from or how it is produced." He says that, "The nature of ultimate reality can not be known or proved."

Prabhupada: Can not be known?

Syamasundara: Known.

Prabhupada: Yes, but it can be known from a person who knows it.

Syamasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: [chuckles] Can not be known, that's a fact, but it can be known from a person who knows it. Because he says it can not be known it is not a fact. He may not know but somebody may know. Atmavat manyate jagat, "Everyone thinks others like himself." Because he does not know therefore others also do not know but that is not a fact, there may be somebody or there is somebody who knows.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: So that is our policy, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. Therefore Vedic injunction is that, "You find out the person who knows." Then he's called guru, one who knows, he's guru: yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya [Cc. Madhya 8.127]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Anyone who knows krsna-tattva, he is guru."

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: And Vedas says that one must approach a guru because he knows, and therefore from him you can know.

Syamasundara: He says that, "there is a distinction between objective reality and our ideas."

Prabhupada: Yes. Ideas are always nonsense, it can not be fact. Ah the fact is what we know from the authority-that is fact. Ideas are never facts, therefore your ideas, my ideas does not agree. But the fact everyone will agree.

Syamasundara: But for instance if we all see something moving couldn't we all say that, "My idea is that there is something moving."

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: Isn't that true? I means does...

Prabhupada: Everything is moving, the sun is moving, the moon is moving, the earth is moving.

Syamasundara: So we have an idea that something is, everyone has an idea that the earth is moving.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: So that isn't a false idea is it?

Prabhupada: No, why false?

Syamasundara: Well you were just saying that our…, all ideas are false.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: All our ideas are false.

Prabhupada: No, not ideal, I don't say it is false.

Syamasundara: Ha.

Prabhupada: But ideas created by me, that is false…, but if I take other's ideas and mix it and make it, that is another, mixture of ideas. Just like still the scientists say that the sun is fixed-up

Syamasundara: Ah.

Prabhupada: Is it not?

Syamasundara: They don't know what to say.

Prabhupada: The solar, the solar system is circulating round the sun?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: But the sun is also moving.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: They agree or not?

Syamasundara: I think they agree, sun is moving.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. So we get this idea from the authority, sastras.

Syamasundara: Ah. But if we all see that lamp and we say, "I think it is red," he says, "I think it is red," everyone thinks it is red. Isn't that a true idea that that lamp is red?

Prabhupada: Yes, if everybody thinks in the same way, then it is truth.

Syamasundara: Ah. Agreement.

Prabhupada: Yes, but fools agreement is not good. [laughs]

Syamasundara: He says there is, "there are primary qualities..."

Prabhupada: Anyway the perfect idea can be had from the authority.

Syamasundara: Yes. He says that, "objective reality has primary qualities, that [are] inseparable from the object itself." Just as that red color is inseparable from that object.

Prabhupada: Yes, that we say, that is called dharma.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: It can not be separated.

Syamasundara: [laughs] Hah. Just as something is solid or has a certain shape…

Prabhupada: Yes…, yes.

Syamasundara:…or it is in motion.

Prabhupada: And similarly dharma means the particular characteristic of a particular thing. That is dharma. So living entities, every living entity, the dharma is to render service to other, to the superior. Therefore service attitude is the dharma, and where to render that service? When he knows that Krsna is Supreme that is perfection of life, that is liberation.

Syamasundara: He said that, "these primary qualities may excite in our minds a copy corresponding to the thing in itself as it really exists." In other words as soon as I see that that lamp is red my mind has a copy of redness which proves that that thing as it exists has redness as its primary quality.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: [chuckles] So...

Prabhupada: But there are other philosophers who say the red color is combination of some pigments, actually it is not red.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: So which is correct?

Syamasundara: [chuckles] Then there is take a ball, if I see a ball is round, that shape is the primary quality of that particular object-round.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: So my mind has an immediate awareness that it is round which is beyond any doubt. So does this mean the mind is able to perceive the dharma of everything, the quality, primary quality of everything?

Prabhupada: That is also experience, you, you say, "sugar is sweet," by experience, by your tasting, otherwise how can you distinguish between sugar and salt? That is experience-empiric knowledge.

Syamasundara: And he says that, "objects have secondary qualities, sensations that are not in the object at all." Just like you were just saying, that red lamp occupies space, that is a primary quality which we can't dispute but the fact that that red lamp is red is only a secondary quality because we see it as red through our sense perception.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: But it is only a combination of pigments that make it red.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: Like you were just saying.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: So this is a secondary quality, this quality of redness, where the primary quality would be that it...

Prabhupada: Occupation of pigments.

Syamasundara: The primary quality would be that it occupies space, the lamp.

Prabhupada: Ha.

Syamasundara: And the secondary quality would be that it is red.

Prabhupada: Ha. There are other qualities also.

Syamasundara: What is that?

Prabhupada: Yes. A lamp, there is electrical power, it becomes bright, it illuminates.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: There are so many qualities.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is hot, it is warm.

Syamasundara: Ah. So he says that, "this cause, effect relationship resides in external objects." In other words one object has the power which causes a change in another object and this can cause a change in our perceptions or ideas of them. Just like for instance, a fire makes lead fluid. So that fire has the ability as a cause to effect lead and thus our sense perceptions can be changed by that thing.

Prabhupada: No. Lead is liquid in contact with fire.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: As soon as there is no fire again it is solid.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So the original position of lead, solidity, is there.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Under certain condition it becomes liquid.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So...

Syamasundara: His idea is that, "things have a cause in themself," like that fire is able to change lead. In itself it has the quality of being able to change something, have an effect on something.

Prabhupada: That is going on-interaction.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: What is called? Combination and permutation. No. What is that?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that is going on, that is nature's law. There are so many spices, you mix together, it becomes very nice taste.

Syamasundara: Later on we will talk about philosophers, especially David Hume, who deny this cause effect relationship.

Prabhupada: He is famous, Hume.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: He denies this cause effect relationship.

Prabhupada: Nasav muni yasya matam na bhinnam [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. "He is not a philosopher if he can not deny other philosophers."

Syamasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: And we deny all of them therefore we are the greatest.

Syamasundara: [laughter]

Prabhupada: Greatest philosophers.

Syamasundara: Well what do you say about objects? Do you say that there is a cause? There is a cause inherent in that object which will allow it to change other objects? [background traffic noise]

Prabhupada: I can not understand this language.

Syamasundara: Just, [laughs] just like fire, the object fire.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: Would you say that fire has the inherent ability to cause changes in other objects.

Prabhupada: Yes. Fire, as soon as expands heat, it makes you warm, that is changing your condition. So similarly in every object may have.

Syamasundara: Hm. So now we will discuss how knowledge is verified to be true. How we can know if some knowledge is true. He says that...

Prabhupada: We say knowledge received from guru is truth. That's all.

Syamasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: That is our. All other knowledge, not true.

Syamasundara: He says that, "there are four tests to know if knowledge is true by which we perceive if there is agreement or disagreement between ideas."

Prabhupada: No, even if we do not agree, truth is truth.

Syamasundara: Ha.

Prabhupada: Where is the question of my agreement or not agreement?

Syamasundara: Well he says, "objectively we can study something to see if there is agreement or disagreement, not just that it is a subjective opinion, but that there must be scientific proof." Just like he says, "there are four types of such agreement and disagreement." One is the principle of identity, that is an idea agrees with itself and two distinct ideas disagree with each other. Just like we say, "blue is blue and yellow is yellow," so blue is not yellow.

Prabhupada: Hm. So our test of genuineness is evidence in the Vedas. Just like the same example, stool, cow stool and man's stool, this is not agreeable, by contradictory…

Syamasundara: [laughs] Yeah.

Prabhupada: …but because it is mentioned in the Vedas we accept, this is pure, this is impure. By argument you can not reach to the conclusion.

Syamasundara: So he says, "besides this truth of identity there is a truth of relation." In other words there is a relation between two ideas which is in agreement. For example that two triangles upon equal bases between two parallel lines are equal. This is a mathematic axiom which proves the truth of relation. And then he says that, "there is the law of necessary connections. That there is invariably some..., which invariably accompanies an object." Just like you were saying about gold, for example that gold is yellow, that it weighs such-and-such, this is necessarily true of gold. Gold is always yellow, it always weighs such-and-such and iron is always attracted by a magnet, these truths are inseparable from the object. And then he said, "there is the forth type of agreement or disagreement is that an idea of the object is real may agree with the fact that the object exists." In other words first we have an idea that some object is real and this idea may…, may agree with the fact that the object does exist, for instance God. We have an idea that God exists, so this agrees with the fact that God does exist.

Prabhupada: Hm. Yes. Just like in mirage.

Syamasundara: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: We see something water-like, that means there is water actually, otherwise were is the question of water-like?

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: If there is no water actually then you can not say it is water-like.

Syamasundara: So he says that, "there are three different levels of knowledge. That the highest, the first type is intuitive knowledge which is an immediate awareness of the agreement or disagreement between two ideas, for instance that I exist. I have an immediate intuitive knowledge that I exist, I am able to discern that..."

Prabhupada: That's intuitiveness means by past experience.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: I exist, my childhood body it existed, my boyhood body. I am…, therefore I am existing in this body. So this intuition, "I exist," is depending on my past experience, by existence. So what is called intuition, it is also experience.

Syamasundara: Yes. He would say that also. And he says that, "there is a demonstrative knowledge or understanding by reason the logical relationships among ideas." Just like mathematics, by demonstrating that two plus two equals four, there is that type of knowledge, and there is sensitive knowledge which is perceptions of probably facts but not certain truths. Just like if I am always seeing that a certain event precedes a given cause I can conclude that there is a probable cause-effect relationship but it is never certain. For instance if I see that if a ball falls in water that there is some disturbance created. If I see that that happens several times then I can conclude that there is a probable cause-effect relationship but I can never be really certain because only my senses have perceived it.

Prabhupada: That I have explained, it maybe that there is a stone will float when God desires.

Syamasundara: Yes. So the senses can't really provide certain knowledge.

Prabhupada: Therefore we should not accept sensuous knowledge.

Syamasundara: So he also...

Prabhupada: Adhoksaja. Sensuous knowledge means aksaja but adhoksaja, beyond knowledge.

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: That knowledge is not by my personal induction.

Syamasundara: He says that, "as far as God, that we do not have an innate idea of God but we have an intuitive certain knowledge that He does exist." In other words we are not born with the idea that God exists but after some time we have an intuitive knowledge that He must exist.

Prabhupada: Not intuitive knowledge, it is also direct knowledge. Just like in the Brahma-samhita we read, this is the God description: cintamani. He has got a peacock feather on His head, He is playing on His flute, He stands in three curved posture, these things are described there. Now if you take it as Brahma-samhita as the authority then the knowledge is perfect.

Syamasundara: Hm. But by knowledge that God exists...

Prabhupada: This is description of God. That God is like this.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So if we take Brahma-samhita as authority then our knowledge of God is perfect.

Syamasundara: Hm. But...

Prabhupada: But if we speculate, "What is God, what kind of His bodily features, what He is doing?" That is imperfect.

Syamasundara: But just the bare fact that God exists without knowing what He looks like or anything, he says that, "I have some intuitive knowledge, awareness that God must exist."

Prabhupada: Hm, that is everyone.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: As everything has a creator so this cosmic manifestation must have a creator.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is very simple conclusion.

Syamasundara: So his idea is that, "I have an intuitive knowledge that God exists because of my senses."

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: "Because my senses have shown me that there are so many causes of things and complex powers, so there must be a Supreme Cause and a Supreme Complex Power, but I am not born with this idea, I only know it intuitively after I begin to sense things with my senses." That's his idea. Is this...

Prabhupada: That means I have to get experience?

Syamasundara: Experience first, then I conclude that there must be God.

Prabhupada: Ah. That experience should be received from person who has already experienced. [coughs]

Syamasundara: But is it true that someone is not born with the...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: Someone is not born with the idea that God...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is also possible, that is also experience. That means in his past life he has already experienced and he is continue.

Syamasundara: Ah… So everyone is born with the idea that God exists?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Everyone is born with the idea that God exists?

Prabhupada: More or less, more or less.

Syamasundara: He says that, "God must be a..."

Prabhupada: For example, me, I believed Krsna from the very birth, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Syamasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes. From very birth, "Here is God, Krsna."

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is mean a born conviction. I was never man a worshipper of any other demigod.

Syamasundara: He said that, "God must be a thinking being because nature itself is senseless so it could not produce senses and thoughts unless God we're Himself a thinking being with senses."

Prabhupada: So nature senses, what is that?

Syamasundara: "Nature itself, or matter, material nature has no senses and has no thought capacity but God..."

Prabhupada: We can have thoughts, but inert matter.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: They have no thoughts.

Syamasundara: So he says that, "God must be a thinking being in order to create us with minds and senses."

Prabhupada: Certainly, we give definition: aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasaḥ sriyaḥ jnanam [Visnu Purana 6.5.47]. Jnanam, jnanam means "knowledge," full knowledge. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, "I have got full knowledge of everything: past, present and future." That is God, full knowledge: vedaham samatitani [Bg. 7.26]. "Everything I know." Just like He said to Arjuna that, "Millions of years ago I taught this philosophy to Arjuna, er, to Sun god. You also took birth with Me but you have forgotten, I remember." That is God, God knows everything.

Syamasundara: He says that, "there are no innate ideas so that moral and religious and political values must be regarded as the products of experience."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: That our political and moral values must be derived from experience.

Prabhupada: Hm. So why don't you take it, the best experience, one who has got the best experience? Just like we take about political affairs and social affairs from Manu because he has got the best experience, manur iksvakave bravit [Bg. 4.1]. Manu told his son Iksvaku. So if it depends on experience we should take the best experience. Or unadulterated or imperfect…, or perfect experience without taking imperfect experience, better let us take the perfect experience. That will help us.

Syamasundara: He says, "these values must obey three things: 1) The will of God as expressed in the natural law, 2) Laws upon which men agree such as the social contracts." To go back to the first one he says that, "our values must obey the laws of nature," means that…, in nature everything exists in harmony.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: So that our laws must also be obeyed in such a way that we will exist in harmony and he also says that...

Prabhupada: And what is that harmony? We have got perfect idea of this harmony. This perfect idea of harmony is that we are part and parcel of God. So as in my body there are different parts and parcels and it has got a particular function. So when it does, the part and parcel, the particular function-that is harmony. If hand, hand it is meant for doing the work of touching or lifting but if the hand says, "I am, I shall walk." That is disservice. Let the legs walk, and the hands catch or touch, the eyes see. Similarly we, being part and parcel of God, we have got a particular function. If we do that, that is harmony. Otherwise there is disharmony.

Syamasundara: So that's the real law of nature?

Prabhupada: Yes. The law of nature means it is working in harmony with the desire of God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ
sūyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]

That, "Under My superintendence this material energy is working and therefore so many varieties of things are being produced and everything is going on nicely in harmony." The superintendent is the Supreme, it is not blind. Therefore any organization, you practically see, a big business or big factory or anything, there is a supreme authority under whose order goes everything enough. In state, the president. So harmony means there must be a supreme superintendent, then there is harmony. Just like it is generally said, "obedience is the first law of discipline." Harmony can not go without obedience.

Syamasundara: This is his idea, that we have to obey, the cause may...

Prabhupada: Therefore, therefore everybody is obeying Me, yasyajnaya, sun... Even the sun, so powerful, Brahma-samhita says he is also rotating in his fixed-up orbit by the order of Govinda. Govindam adi... yasyajnaya: "under whose order it is rotating." In the sea can not come beyond the beach, such a vast ocean, it can immediately overflood the whole cities-but no. When Los Angeles we were walking they [the ocean] could not touch even my foot. Under whose order? It is not my order, it is supreme order, that "You can not come beyond this." And I am also ordered, "You can not go beyond this." This is harmony, how it is being done? By the Supreme Order. He is, as Supersoul He is dictating, "Don't go there, you'll be in danger." And the sea is also ordered, "Don't come here." So this is harmony.

Syamasundara: Hm. I see.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: And he says that, "we must also obey the laws upon which men agree or the social contract."

Prabhupada: This is the law, he must, that is religion. When you agree to the laws of the Supreme, that is called religion.

Syamasundara: Yes. What about the law that men agree not to kill each other?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Men agree socially not to steal each other's property or kill each other. So we should also obey those laws of men, men's laws?

Prabhupada: Men's law is imitation of God's law. Hm. God's law is that: isavasyam idam sarvam . Every living entity is the son of God, he has got right to live at the cost of God, so everyone is eating his own foodstuffs, supplied by God. The animals are eating, cow is eating grass. Why should you kill the cow? This is against God's law. You have got rice, grains, fruit, flowers, so use them, what is this for you. They are not coming, the tiger is not coming to eat your fruits or grains so why should you go and kill a tiger? He's not encroaching upon... He is given an allotted place, just like this nisadas, these black human beings, they are given, therefore Africa is so jungle. They have to live in jungle, this is God's order. Now they are becoming civilized, jungle cut and becoming cities, but they are meant for living in the jungle and therefore the original African you will see with a war [?] and he has to kill the animals and eat and live in the jungle. That is God's law.

Syamasundara: And what about traditions? Does it... men must also...

Prabhupada: Traditions means, "truth coming from disciplic succession." That is tradition.

Syamasundara: Proven by time.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Krsna says [to] Arjuna, "I am God." Arjuna accepts, "Yes." Param brahma param dhama, [Bg. 10.12]..., "You are God." So we take knowledge from Arjuna, that is tradition. If you take the words of Arjuna then you understand God immediately by tradition. We don't have to search God. Arjuna has seen personally Krsna and he says, "Yes, You are God. You are accepted by Narada, You are accepted by Vyasa and I see You are God. You tell also that You are God, therefore You are God." So many and things, so if we take Arjuna's advice then we see God, Krsna, here is. What is the difficulty? We haven't got to speculate. That is tradition-perfect tradition.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sruti, tradition, the exact Sanskrit word is sruti, "you hear from the authority." "Call a spade a spade," you learn it from your father, "This is a spade," and you call it a spade, then the knowledge perfect.

Syamasundara: He says in this…, John Locke's utilitarian ethic is that, "happiness is the greatest good"…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: … "the greatest goal so one should do what leads him to happiness." And that means that one should follow the moral law, be obedient to the moral law. So he is the follower of the moral law out of the utilitarian spirit, "because it brings me happiness, therefore I utilize the moral law."

Prabhupada: Yes, but the difficult is that here in this material world every happiness is temporary. Even you follow moral law's others will give you trouble, he won't care whether you are moral or immoral, therefore this is not the place of happiness. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. "It is a place of miseries," therefore you have to find out where is the place of real happiness, that is spiritual world. So to find out happiness here is another illusion, it is not possible. It is recommended by Krsna Himself, "It is a place of misery only." How you can have happiness here?

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Or in the Bhagavad-gita it is said that: sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriyam grahyam [Bg. 6.21]. Real happiness: atyantikam, real happiness, what is real happiness? That is: atindriya, "not with these senses," -atindriya, "beyond these senses."

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Ah. In other words you have to purify your senses, that is also confirmed by Rsabhadeva, tapaḥ divyam yena suddhyeta satya [SB 5.5.1]. Satta, my existence is now impure. Another example can be given is when you are diseased you can not taste things in its right position. Rasagulla-sweet-ball, is very sweet but if you are suffering from fever. Ohhh, if you taste, you'll not sweet because suffering from jaundice you'll taste sweet things as bitter.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Therefore to taste real happiness you have to purify yourself. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriyam grahyam [Bg. 6.21]. Not with these senses but these materialists they think that, "If I have immediately sexual intercourse I feel very happy," but that is not real happiness, and that happiness also we can not enjoy. So the conclusion should be that we should not seek happiness like cats and dogs and hogs. We should seek happiness as human being, that is by tapasya, by after purifying the senses. That is happiness.

Syamasundara: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: It is like a sane man suffering from fever, he does not take this rich food because he knows that, "If I take it will not do me good, it will harm, let me first of all become cured of this disease then in my healthy life I shall taste all these things." That is real happiness. Similarly a sane man who knows his material condition, he is spirit soul, he is covered by the material, um, what is called? Outlay or coating, material coating. So let this coating be washed by devotional service: tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. "When you engage yourself in devotional…, the coating will..." Then your real senses come out and with that real senses you enjoy by serving Krsna.

Syamasundara: He said that, "all men are born free and equal in the state of nature and they have formed a social contract therefore the government must be based on and subject to the mutual consent of all the citizens." In other words he believes in a democracy, democratic society.

Prabhupada: That means that agreement can be reached when everyone is spiritual.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: If one is in the material platform then he is under different modes of material nature: ignorance, passion and goodness. So how the vote of a man, just like the votes of a Krsna conscious man and votes of a drunkard, how it can be equal? So unless one comes to the spiritual platform that is not possible.

Syamasundara: Is it true that all men are born free and equal?

Prabhupada: Ha? Yes. That's a fact, that's a fact. If you are not free how you commit sin? Commit sin means I have got freedom to commit sin, therefore I am committing sin.

Syamasundara: What about equality, is everyone born equal?

Prabhupada: Yes. Equality means you have got the small independence equally. So you can misuse it or use it equally. That is equality. I have got independence, you have got independence, we are equal. If I misuse, I go down, and if you use properly you go up. So for using my independence we have, we have got equal right.

Syamasundara: Ah!

Prabhupada: Oh!

[End]