Hobbes, Thomas
Hobbes, Thomas
Hobbes, Thomas (Syamasundara)-Africa
Syamasundara: Thomas Hobbes declares that, "whatever exists is matter and whatever changes is motion." So that, "mental or spiritual entities are not realities in their own right but they are merely by-products of matter so that spirit and mind perish when the material basis is destroyed."
Prabhupada: That is the same nonsense, that spirit is combination of some material conditions.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: But they can not do it, that is the defect. They simply talk nonsense. If spirit is combination of matter so do it. By combining matter, chemicals you produce spirit, living force.
Syamasundara: He himself was not a scientist but he says that, ah...
Prabhupada: Well if he is not a scientist he is speculator. What is the value of a speculator? He hasn't got proper knowledge, why does he speak nonsense? He must be, whatever he…, he may be scientist or whatever he may be but whatever he speaks must be correct-that is our position. Just like we defy anyone indirectly, Aurobindo or this theory of his. "No, this is not good." On what strength we do that? Because we are confident that because it does not tally with this knowledge given in Bhagavad-gita it is all rubbish, knowledge, and we can support it with reason and argument. That is our position.
Syamasundara: These British empiricists, they believe that the only, the only proof that we have of anything is through our senses.
Prabhupada: Well that is another nonsense. We say, "Your senses are imperfect," therefore what you believe, that is imperfect. This is the same question. That is just like in the morning the sunshine is coming from ninety millions of, ninety million miles? So how do you know this is ninety million miles? Can any child say that the sun is so far away? How do you say that it is ninety millions miles?
Syamasundara: They have, they have invented certain instruments to measure distances.
Prabhupada: So therefore they have learned it from authority. By senses he could not measure, he took the help of instrument, he took the help of expert instrument driver. In that way he has checked it is ninety million, but through your ordinary senses you see, can you say that it is ninety million miles?
Syamasundara: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is the use, what is the value of such sight? [indistinct] sense perception, because your senses are imperfect. By ordinary seeing you can not say how many miles away the sun.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: But after measurement by expert men you have ascertained, so that is not direct sense perception. So how sense perception can be equal right? That is rubbish.
Syamasundara: So the mind and the soul is not simply a physiological system?
Prabhupada: Soul is a different energy, just like heat and light, they are from the same source, fire, but a still heat is not light, light is not heat. Sometimes you may feel here heat but that does not mean there is light.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: And sometimes you may have light, but that does not mean there is heat. But heat and light coming from the same source. Fire. Fire is exhibiting the heat and light. The sunshine is a fire, there is fire and through that fire you are getting this heat and light but a still it does not mean where there is heat there must be light, or where there is light there must be heat. Generally there but you can not say.
Syamasundara: How it is that the soul or the mind are different than the body?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Syamasundara: How can we say that...
Prabhupada: It is not different, they are being manifested in different phases. The same thing, just like the sunshine, the heat we are feeling here is not the same heat when you are nearer to the sun, you'll be blown up immediately. That is the scientific view, if you go near to the sun, so many thousands of miles just nearer, you'll immediately become blown up, the temperature is so strong.
Syamasundara: But how is it, how is it that the soul is not produced by the body?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Syamasundara: How, how do we know the soul is not produced by the body?
Prabhupada: Produced by the body?
Syamasundara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What do you mean by that?
Syamasundara: That the physiological system of the body, material base, does not merely produce the soul as a byproduct?
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. As soon as a man dies the physiological position is there, everything. Why he is dead? These are questions, childhood questions. They are posing as philosophers but they are thinking like child. Why that immediately after death the physiological condition of the body is there, now how you answer that "This man is dead."? [knock on door] What is missing? [aside] Come on.
Syamasundara: It's not move, not moving.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Syamasundara: Heart is not beating.
Prabhupada: Why the heart is not beating? What is missing there? [aside] Aye.
The physiological condition of the body is there and a still you say, "It is dead." What is that thing that is missing, that it is dead now?
The physiological condition of the body is there and a still you say, "It is dead." What is that thing that is missing, that it is dead now?
Indian Devotee: Some [indistinct]...
Syamasundara: So there is no longer an impulse from the brain to the heart for...
Prabhupada: But why this brain stopped? The brain construction is there. Why the brain stopped? That is the question. And they, you may, you may claim, "Because this is not there, this is not there." Then what is that-missing? You replace it. If you are expert, just like a machine stops, an expert comes, he knows that, "Here is the defect." He immediately replaces it and the machine starts. Why don't you do that? Hm? Then you do not know because nobody has done, no scientist, no so-called philosopher has been able to do it. They are all rascals there, they are rascal statements, all rascaldom.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Is it not? If you are saying something as authority then you must answer the challenge. The opposite party is challenging, "What is that thing, missing? Replace it." If you know that this is the composition, like this. Just like a machine man, he knows, you pay for it, he knows the thing, "Yes, I'll make it immediately start, give me this money." That is authority. You pay, immediately he makes it. "Alright, let me see the resultant." That is expert. If I say, "Oh, the machine is gone because this..." Now when I say, "Do it." "No, I can't do it." What is this nonsense? Why do you talk like nonsense? [talking about tape recorder in background] Is it not? They're all talking nonsense.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: And posing themselves as philosophers, scientists, but they are talking nonsense. Just like Arjuna was chastised by Krsna: prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are taking like very learned man and you do not know what for you are lamenting. You are so nonsense." This is the fact, chastisement by Krsna: asocyan anvasocas tvam. "You are lamenting on subject matter which nobody laments and you are talking just like very learned man." So these people are like that, they're talking like learned men but they are rascal number one. That we can detect-Krsna conscious persons, others can not detect. Just like the other day the question was about the human form theosophy, because there are so many branches of theosophists. Cult societies all over the world but that one word they became foolish rascals, they have no perfect knowledge.
Devotee: Incidently…
Prabhupada: They say that human being, once by evolutionary process a living entity comes to the human form of life, he remains in that position, he does not degrade…
Devotee: Yeah.
Prabhupada: …but that is not the fact.
Devotee: They have made a concert [?], they admit it, that the actual truth, in their Bhagavad-gita, that depending… That, that you can take them and depending on the mental condition at the time of death, that's the kind of body you'll take. They admit that in their Bhagavad-gita the deadest man they are saying different [?].
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: So...
Prabhupada: [aside:] Aye [come in] [door movement]
Syamasundara: …Hobbes, Hobbes believed that ah... [break]
Prabhupada: These, these are the question of, "I believe." So a foolish man also has got some belief. You see? You may can say, "I believe."
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Just like this child, he has got also some beliefs. Just like in my childhood, I told you, when there was gramophone playing I was thinking, "There must be some man within this box." So I believed but is that belief is alright? So belief has no value. "I believe." What is this poor value? First of all your belief is valuable if you are importance, just like a child's belief and the father's belief and his teacher's belief, so these beliefs are different beliefs. So why these belief wallas should be given any importance? Belief is not perfect knowledge.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Belief is different thing. Just like religion, religion is described in the dictionary, "A certain type of belief-faith." But we don't define, that is a different thing. We say, "Religion means characteristic which can not be changed." That is religion. You can not change it. It is…, belief you can change, today your belief is Sunday, next tomorrow, you'll believe in something else.
[aside] You come here come here, you come forward.
[aside] You come here come here, you come forward.
Syamasundara: Well Hobbes sees everything in relationship to utility, he is a Utilitarian, he accepts everything only if it's pragmatic...
Prabhupada: That is, that is also relative. A child is satisfied if you give him five rupees, he'll be satisfied but his father will think, "Oh, what is this five rupees?" So utility of five rupees is also relative. So his conception of utility is not the same as Krsna's conception. There is the same example, Arjuna was thinking that he was talking very learnedly and immediately Krsna has told him that, "You are nonsense. You are thinking not like a learned man." So this utility, belief, these things are all relative. Just like... Just like their standard of living, these Africans, eh? Is different from the civilized man's standard of living. [door movement]
Devotee: Still devotees. [door movement]
Prabhupada: Just like a hog, a hog is thinking, "I'm [in a] very comfortable position. I'm eating very nicely." But he is eating stool and living in the garbage and searching his enjoyment. The crows believe, the swans believe that… These things are all relative. So whatever he says, it will be judged, what he eats first of all. If he has no perfect knowledge then he will believe his utility. We are all different from the utility and belief of a perfect man. [door movement]
Syamasundara: For instance his views of religion, he says that, "Religion is only a practical instrument, it doesn't have any real value as a science but it is used by the state to keep the people controlled."
Prabhupada: That means they do not know what is religion. Religion, they have made a certain type of faith, but actually religion means characteristic. Just like…, you understand just like, "This is child, this is woman, and this is old man, this is young man." How do you know it? By the characteristic. A child's characteristic is there, the woman's characteristic is there, the man's characteristic is there. So religion means that characteristic. Or, just like woman, generally she is shy. A man is not shy. So this is... This shyness is the characteristic. So similarly...
Syamasundara: Or serving an innate quality of someone...
Prabhupada: Yes, that that character of shyness you can not change. If you ask this woman, "You become naked." Oh she will never agree to that. But a man, immediately he can open the shirts and coats, immediately. In his lahgota [loincloth] he will stand. Why? That is man's character, that is a woman's character... So there are different characteristics, so what is the characteristic of the living entities? That I have explained several times, he is subordinate and serving somebody-that is the characteristic; all living entities. Take anyone. Is it not? Take any living entity, he is subordinate and he is serving somebody. This is the characteristic, this is religion, to become subordinate and to render service. So that is Krsna wanted, "Surrender unto Me. You are subordinate, surrender here. That's your first business." And we are artificially trying not to surrender too Krsna. I am trying to become Krsna. "I am God." "Oh you are God, why?" Like that. And this is against the characteristic. He is actually, he is not God, he is not supreme but he is claiming like that. That is described by one Vaisnava poet that:
Just like a man, when he is ghostly haunted, he speaks so many nonsense things. Similarly when a living entity is under the clutches of this material energy he speaks like that-all nonsense. As philosopher, as scientist, as big man, as speculator. Therefore you can find out all these defects even in the thinking of Aurobindo or Balavanti [?], and so many others.
Syamasundara: Hobbes, um, says that, "in the state of nature, in a natural state that man, like all other animals, that might makes right, so that the strongest always prevail." So he says that, "whatever confirms with the natural law is moral in this state of nature but that men form a social contract or mutual agreement to restrict their natural…"
Prabhupada: Natural law is that if you are mighty you shall assert your strength.
Syamasundara: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is natures law.
Syamasundara: Yes. So…
Prabhupada: Nūnam mahatam tatra [SB. 1.13.47]... If you are, if somebody is nūnam, less important, mahatam, "the one who is stronger," he will overrule, rule over.
Syamasundara: So he says that, "men form a social contract," in other words they volunteer to restrict their natural liberties for the sake of self-preservation.
Prabhupada: That is not natural liberty, that's the ghostly liberty. I am thinking, just like there are so many ghostly haunted persons that they are falsely thinking that, "I am god." That is not natural condition, the natural condition is to think that, "I am God's servant." That is natural.
Syamasundara: Then what about the animals? Aren't they always…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: …killing each other?
Prabhupada: The animals they submit to the man's ruling, even an elephant, even a lion. They submit, they know that they are less, lesser than human beings. [break]
As soon as they see that one human being is there with some deadly weapon they immediately clear away.
As soon as they see that one human being is there with some deadly weapon they immediately clear away.
Syamasundara: So men when they can...
Prabhupada: They attack out of fear, that, "This man is coming to attack me."
Syamasundara: So men, when they get into society, in order to preserve that...
Prabhupada: That is not natural condition, that is also unnatural condition.
Syamasundara: Society?
Prabhupada: Anything without Krsna consciousness is unnatural. Any condition of life-unnatural. This is natural state that Krsna is supreme, I am his subordinate, my sole business is to render service, this is natural. Therefore unless one comes to this position, these are all unnatural, or in ghostly condition. Just like ghostly man requires to be cured, the diseased man requires to be cured. Similarly our, this Krsna consciousness movement is for curing all these ghostly mad-men thinking differently. To bring him to the natural condition.
Syamasundara: Well then when men get together for in a society they want to preserve themselves so they make a contract, "I shall not kill my neighbor...
Prabhupada: Well, why man? If some, if there is a group of asses, what duty too there? You mean to say because a group of assess are there there will be something good?
Syamasundara: But what I am trying to get at is that men consciously form a contract.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: "I will not kill you, you will not kill me, I will not..."
Prabhupada: And how long this contract will continue? This is another nonsense.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: This contract is a... These rogues, they are making contracts after a big war. Just like the First World War, they made the contract, League of Nations. That failed, the second war came out and now they have made United Nations and that is going to be again dismantled. So these contracts, this compromise, is useless. For the time being it may serve some purpose but it has no value.
Syamasundara: But just like men, in this society, they volunteer, "I will not kill you, I will not steal your property if you will not kill me or steal my property."
Prabhupada: Uhm. Yes. That is the thief contract.
Syamasundara: [laughs]
Prabhupada: So after, if you remain a thief, what improvement you have made? There is a story that some, a group of thieves, stolen some valuable things and out of the city one thief is saying, "Sir divide the property very rightly, honestly." [chuckles] These rogues are all dishonest and they are talking of honesty. The property is stolen, that means in the very beginning their activities were...
Just like in your America, the whole American land is stolen and now you have immigration department. Vigilant, "Now I can not allow anyone [from] outside." Now who you were? You are outsider, why you are here? But this kind of morality is going on. I am thief, I am asking that, "Don't commit theft." What is the value of? I am smoker, I'm asking my child, "Don't smoke." So this kind of teachings, this kind of morality has no value.
Just like in your America, the whole American land is stolen and now you have immigration department. Vigilant, "Now I can not allow anyone [from] outside." Now who you were? You are outsider, why you are here? But this kind of morality is going on. I am thief, I am asking that, "Don't commit theft." What is the value of? I am smoker, I'm asking my child, "Don't smoke." So this kind of teachings, this kind of morality has no value.
Syamasundara: He says that before we could follow the golden rule first you have to follow the opposite to the golden rule, "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."
Prabhupada: That is Buddha's theory. Lord Buddha wanted to impress this, that if somebody hurts you you feel pain, why should you hurt others? Of course third class, fourth class men are to be taught like that.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: So... But here you see Krsna is asking Arjuna, "Kill them." So what is the difference? Krsna says that you kill them. Does it mean Krsna's position has become reduced? It is, it is relative to the class of men. Less intelligent class, there are different classes of men. What is the actual question you asked?
Syamasundara: Well, he is trying to determine how society can live peacefully.
Prabhupada: They have tried so many times, it has always become failure.
Syamasundara: He says that there must be a social contract made...
Prabhupada: There can not be any peace in this material world. Krsna says plainly: duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], "it is the place for miseries." How you can establish peace here? You can not do it, Krsna's verdict is this. The structure of this material world is so made, just like Visvanatha Cakravati: samsara-davanala-liḍha-loka [Sri Gurv-astaka 1]. "This material world is exactly like blazing forest fire." He has been example of blazing forest fire because nobody wants to set fire in the forest but it takes place. Similarly nobody wants here-fight, or disturbed conditions-but it takes place.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: So how it can be checked simply by making contract, by understanding or this or…Eh? That that understanding, that, "this side of stool is nice."
Syamasundara: [laughs]
Prabhupada: Remember that?
Syamasundara: Yes. Sunshine.
Prabhupada: Sunshine, the other side of the stool is dried up and if you say, "Oh this side of the stool is very nice." So our calculation of this world is like that, "This side of material understanding is good." But this is less intelligent, you should know this is stool, it can not be good, this side or that side. That is knowledge-it is stool, I can not utilize it. Padam padam yad vipadam na tesam [SB. 10.14.58]. That is the statement that this world is: padam padam yad vipadam. Padam padam means, "in every step there is danger." So how you can make a compromise and contract and peaceful and... It is not possible-that is ignorance. Throughout the whole history they are trying like that, that is not possible. Napnuvanti… ah, mahatmanaḥ, samsiddhim paramam gataḥ.
So this place is like that. Just like here the Indians came and they are still feeling that, "We are very comfortably situated." But so many Indians are being driven away, "Go out." This is not wanted but they are asked, "go out". Similarly, you may want peace and prosperity by so-called contract, by something, by something but things will not be allowed. That is the law of nature, however you conceive of contracts, or this or that, it is not possible.
Syamasundara: You can make adjustments.
Prabhupada: No. That is not possible. This morning I was replying that you may deny to submit to Krsna but nature will not allow you. If you don't submit to Krsna then nature will put you in so many difficulties that at last you will be obliged to submit to Krsna. That is nature's law. If you voluntarily accept submission to Krsna that is good for you but if you do not then nature's law is so stringent, it will always give you trouble, and at last you will be obliged, "Yes." vasudevaḥ sarvam iti... bahūnam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. So you have to struggle for many, many births to come to that point of submitting to Krsna. That means you have to waste your time. Better if you are intelligent, do it immediately. Otherwise you go on suffering, that's all. That is nature's law. You may speculate that without submitting to Krsna I shall make adjustment like this, like that, you go on but it will never be successful. Better to submit to Krsna… Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the only solution.
Syamasundara: His answer is that if we make this social contract and we appoint someone to enforce it, that is who can punish anyone who does not live up to his end of the bargain. Then the society will be preserved, peace will be preserved.
Prabhupada: And who will be that man? If that man is also defective then how it can be done? Then you have to accept a man, an authority who is infallible, who is beyond suspicion.
Syamasundara: Yes. He said, "this person must be a mortal god."
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore you come to God.
Syamasundara: Ha, ha, he says, "a mortal god."
Prabhupada: "Mortal god," mortal god means God's representative.
Syamasundara: [laughs]
Prabhupada: Therefore God comes, the Ultimate Truth.
Syamasundara: He says, "if you can't find a mortal god then it has to be a government institution..."
Prabhupada: The mortal god is there. Krsna's representative, that is mortal god, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair [Sri Sri Gurv-astaka 7]. "You have to treat the representative of God as God-directly."
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Saksat-haritvena. Haritva, haritva means: "he is perfectly as good as God." Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair, "this is the injunction of all sastras." Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair. Hm, eh? What is that?
Devotee: Uktas [indistinct] ...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Pradyumna: Yuktasya bhaktams ca niyunjato 'pi…
Devotee: Uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhiḥ, sadbhiḥ.
Prabhupada: Ha. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair…
Devotee: Uktas tatha…
Prabhupada: Ukta, ukta means: "it is said," tatha bhavyata eva sadbhiḥ. It is not only simply written in the books but this is followed by all stalwart authorities-sadbhiḥ. Not that it is simply spoken or written in the books but sadbhiḥ, those who are authorities-acaryas, they follow it.
saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair
uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhiḥ
kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya
[Sri Sri Gurv-astaka 7]
uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhiḥ
kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya
[Sri Sri Gurv-astaka 7]
This exalted position of guru or the spiritual master is there. Why? Not that he has become saksat-hari, "directly Krsna," his position is that-because he is most confidential servant of Krsna. He's discharging his duty as the most confidential servant of Krsna. Therefore his position is as good as Krsna's. What is that most confidential way? He is trying to bring everyone to Krsna consciousness, that is the most confidential service. Is that, unless he comes to that position he will never be happy. So somehow or other by his planning, this way or that way, how people can come to Krsna consciousness. Therefore most confidential servant.
Syamasundara: So if we can't find a mortal god then we have to elect a government which is responsible to the will of the people.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, "mortal god," then "mortal god" means he must know what is God.
Syamasundara: But if we can't find such a person.
Prabhupada: No, there is such a person, you can not find, that is a different thing, but there is a person. You can not find unless you know. Just like if you are thinking of purchasing gold, but if you do not know what is God, eh what is gold, then what you will purchase? How you will find? Therefore the Vedas is giving you the instruction that: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. A person must approach a guru, and he immediately gives the definition of. Otherwise where you will find?
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Guru.
Syamasundara: Without definition.
Prabhupada: Without knowing what is guru? With desires, samit-pani brahma-nistham [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. This is sticks [?] I mean... "You should approach a guru submissively." Oh what is the qualification of guru, what is guru? Brahma-nistham. He has no other business than preach Krsna or the Supreme Brahman: brahma-nistham. He doesn't do anything except how to glorify Krsna-he is guru. And in another place Bhagavata it is said: tasmad gurum prapadyeta [SB. 11.3.21]. "You must submit to a guru." Who will submit? Jijnasuḥ sreya uttamam, "Those who are inquisitive to understand what is the Absolute Truth." Then? What is the guru's signs, symptoms? Where shall I submit? That:
The same thing, brahma-nistham, or brahmany upasamasrayam, sabde pare ca nisnatam. He is expert in transcendental Vedic knowledge and the symptom is he is fully, I mean to say. What is called? Given to Krsna. So brahmany upasamasrayam. Upasama means, "he is no longer disturbed by any material things." Upasama, means, "he has finished all material business;" upasama. Upasama means, "fully stopped." Just like when there is no fever, that is called "upasama," subsidence of fever. So brahmany, "fully in Brahman," after fully satis…, fully being free from all material contamination: brahmany upasamasrayam. So to find out a godly man he must know who is godly man, that he does not know, so he'll never find out a godly man. Even he finds out... Then when Krsna was there-not everyone understood that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead-neither now. If people understand that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead then where is the question that people do not know what is God? Why do they say they are searching, theosophists-searching after God? Because: avajananti mam mūḍha [Bg. 9.11]. They're, they are deriding Krsna in the human form of body-or other rascals they are rep… misrepresenting that, "I am Krsna, I am God," because they do not know what is God.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: These things... If they would had known that ah, what is God then they would not have accepted these false gods, so many.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: So how, the question is how you'll find out a godly man? Unless he knows what is God and what is godly man? That depends, a theory only. Therefore to know God and godly man he has to come to the Bhagavad-gita-otherwise his knowledge will remain imperfect.
Syamasundara: His only basis for acting is utility or pragmatic theory. In other words whatever is required to do a certain thing, that's all that's necessary. For instance, religion, that's only required to keep the people controlled, it has no other value, only that utility.
Prabhupada: No, then he does not know what is religion. Religion means to come to the original characteristic of the living entity. Hitvanyatha rūpam sva-rūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB. 2.10.6]. Svarūpa, svarūpa means: "factual condition." Just like a man is suffering from fever, his svarūpa means without fever. For example.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Similarly everyone, every living entity is suffering by non-bodily qualities. And what is that non-bodily qualities? That one is not Krsna conscious, that is non-bodily quality. So one has to become Krsna conscious then automatically the non-bodily qualities will vanish, then you find out a godly man. Otherwise you give definition, where is the definition of a godly man? What do you understand by godly man?
Syamasundara: Well in Hobbes's case a godly man is only necessary as far as it is required to maintain peace.
Prabhupada: But then you don't find any godly man. To maintain peace, that is changing. You are maintaining peace at the present moment, again the peace is disturbed.
Syamasundara: Hm. So the social contract can never be absolute. It is always changing.
Prabhupada: No, no, it is changing. There is just here, the European, in Africa, the social condition fifty years ago was different, now it is different, another fifty years after it will be different.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: This is going on like that. How can you make this social condition will never change? That is not possible. That is not possible. In the Vaikuntha-loka the social condition never changes-eternal. Yes. They are pleased with Krsna, dancing with Krsna, eating with Krsna, playing with Krsna, living with Krsna. That is, that condition is eternal, nitya, nitya-siddha that is called. Nitya means: "eternal." When you get, just like in the Krsna's description in the Brahma-samhita: surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. He is tendering, attending cows, surabhi cows-that is never changed. So long Krsna is there, surabhi is always there and the business is also there. Surabhir abhipalayantam, this abhipalayantam means: "always engaged in that way." Venum kvanantam [Bs. 5.30], that His playing on flute is never stopped, His playing as cowherd's boy is never stopped. His cowherd's boyfriend, His gopi girlfriends, that is never stopped, rasa dancing is going on. There… [mic distortion] Therefore one's business should be how to enter into that eternal life, that is Krsna consciousness. It will never change.
Syamasundara: So what about this idea of utility? That everything is accepted only so long as it is useful?
Prabhupada: But yes. That is all foolishness. We take something which is temporarily useful…
Syamasundara: Useful.
Prabhupada: …but our desire is to have a life, eternal life, eternally useful life, that is our desire… [talking in background] [aside:] Wait.
That is our desire. Why these Indians are so much morose to leave Africa? Because they wanted to live here permanently, that is the desire, but nature is not allowing them. Even there is no disturbance a still he'll not be allowed to remain here.
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: Asasvatam, "temporary." The Britishers came here and included this Africa within their empire, Oh India, they thought that, "This will go on eternally." But nature did not allow. No.
Syamasundara: [chuckles] These philosophers like Hobbes form the basis of their philosophy that everything should be used only as it's required, only for utility for sometime, then something else should be used and this way we can adjust things to last forever.
Prabhupada: Hm. But you, another thing is that everyone does not want to change.
Syamasundara: Ha.
Prabhupada: Why? Why this desire is there? Nobody wants to change.
Brahmananda: Because of the spiritual nature.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because I am eternal, I am seeking after something eternal.
Syamasundara: So if I am seeking after something eternal should I employ temporary things, just as long as they are useful to get me to another place?
Prabhupada: No, first of all you know what is your eternal life and then try to make everything favorable to that condition. Just like we say: anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], anukūlyasya sahkalpa pratikūlyasya vivarjanam [Bhakti-sandarbha, Anuccheda 236]. Because we have fixed-up that Krsna is my ultimate goal. So whatever is favorable to help this ultimate goal, I shall accept it.
Syamasundara: Hm. Oh! That's utility.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is utility.
Syamasundara: [laughs].
Prabhupada: That is utility.
Syamasundara: Ah.
Prabhupada: Just like Arjuna said, "What shall I do," considering, "I shall kill or not kill". "Krsna wants kill, alright, kill." This is utility.
Syamasundara: Hm. Whereas their theory is that, that peace of society is the goal so whatever is required...
Prabhupada: That can not be had. That I have already under... It is impossible. The utility is: anukūlyasya sahkalpa, "What will be favorable for advancing my Krsna consciousness." That is the achievement. Just like Bhavananda, I was very pleased, he was describing that, "Our Guru Maharaja was in peaceful Vrndavana and he came to New York, the most rotten place." I went to...
African Devotee: Went to walamandir [?]
Prabhupada: Eh?
African Devotee: To organize about tonight's food? [?]
Syamasundara: Hm.
African Devotee: Then you won't be here.
Prabhupada: Why I left peaceful condition in Vrndavana, Radha-Damodara Temple I was in a room, I was doing my work peacefully.
Syamasundara: Oh for the adds [?]
Prabhupada: For Krsna. So similarly our utility is...
[aside] [indistinct]
That is, that was, that was successful. My Guru Maharaja wanted like this all, "I should not be accepting this comfortable position," never mind, that is our, that is utility.
Syamasundara: Yes.
Prabhupada: We came to New York, not to utilize it for wine and woman, that is the utility of the materialistic person. Our utility was different, that, "If we can turn one man to Krsna consciousness then I have executed the order of Krsna or of my Guru Maharaja." That's all. That is my utility.
Syamasundara: Their, their utility is to accept whatever is favorable for the preservation of the society, in other words the British...
Prabhupada: Well the society will not be preserved. The society…, so many societies came and gone.
Syamasundara: [Laughs] This was British society.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Syamasundara: Especially British society.
Prabhupada: Yes. Any society: Roman society, Greek society, so many societies came and gone-but Krsna society is eternal. That is intelligence. Nitya, nitya-lila-pravista. When our guru's pass away we say: nitya-lila-pravista, "now he has entered the eternal society of Krsna." Either as a cowherd boy or as a gopi or as a this or that but he has entered Krsna's abode, nitya-lila-pravista, this is the word used. Where nitya eternal lila is going on. Lila means: "activity" and the impersonalist says, brahma-lih, they say, after the departure of their friends and gurus, brahma-lih, "when he has merged into Brahman," and we write nitya-lila-pravista. He has not become merged, he is still active but he is active in the eternal activities.
Syamasundara: So that's all.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: For Thomas Hobbs.
Brahmananda: That's all.
Syamasundara: Yes.
Brahmananda: The impersonalists would say: aham brahmasmi, the Vaisnavas would say: nitai krsna dasa.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: Is, is it nitai krsna dasa?
Prabhupada: Dasa?
Syamasundara: [indistinct] nitya krsna…
Brahmananda: Is it nitai krsna dasa?
Prabhupada: Well, nitya krsna dasa.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: Jivera svarūpa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that. This is the real position of the living entities.
Brahmananda: Yes, and that's why the spirit soul, but then I am eternal servant of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Soul means active.
Brahmananda: It's to be understood that I am spirit soul then beyond that is the service.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: Nitya-krsna-dasa.
Prabhupada: So therefore whatever we are doing here we shall do in Vaikuntha also. We are, what we are doing here? We are accepting Krsna the Supreme and glorifying, the same business will be there, that is nitya. It is not that we are doing here sahkirtana or glorifying Krsna and as soon as we enter into Krsna's abode everything will be stopped. The same thing will go on-in a perfect way. Here we are practicing.
Syamasundara: The impersonalists, they want everything to stop.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: [laughs] No more activities.
Prabhupada: No more activities.
Syamasundara: Go to sleep.
Prabhupada: Yes. But that is not possible, because he is active, if you stop a child, "remain silent." He can do it by force for some time but it will not. Similarly this silence of the impersonalists will not stay. The Bhagavata says that: aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ [SB. 10.2.32]. Aruhya krcchrena: after severe austerities, penances they rise up to the param pada, brahma-pada. But, aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ patanty, again falls down from that position. Why? Anadrta-yusmad-ahghrayaḥ: because they did not know what is Krsna, how to serve Him. For this fault they will again fall down. Anadrta-yusmad-ahghrayaḥ; aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ patanty adho. So you'll find many fall-downs of the impersonalists but you will hardly find a man fallen down who is personalist, he is making advance. Just like this Vivekananda or Aurobindo. You have seen Aurobindo's picture with a woman?
Brahmananda: Yes. Big white beard.
Prabhupada: Ha?
Brahmananda: His mother.
Prabhupada: His mother.
Devotee: His mother.
Prabhupada: Later on he…, fallen down from the yogic process. This woman came in her young age with money and she constructed, with her money he constructed the Pondicherry there. People been there it become very opulent and fallen down, yogis association with woman. And later on he, he would not see anybody except that woman. And in his apartment nobody would go, even so many disciples were there, nobody was allowed, simply this woman would go. Just see? And his later photograph it is not like he is yogi, he is the bogi.
Devotee: Huh [chuckles]
Prabhupada: You have seen that?
Brahmananda: Hm.
Prabhupada: That Aurobindo's photo in...
Brahmananda: Hm.
Prabhupada: [indistinct] not yogi…
Syamasundara: Slouched in an arm chair. A big chair.
Prabhupada: Arm chair and fat and he is taking rest. That is not yogi and in his former photograph you will see he is lean, thin and his face also looked like a yogi and later on he is not a yogi, he is a bogi. And the people, [chuckles] putting that mothers picture just side by side. Without any shame, that a yogi can not have.
Syamasundara: I think she is still alive isn't she?
Prabhupada: She is still alive, yes. She has become now the chief.
Syamasundara: Ah.
Brahmananda: And all the properties are in her name.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: Everything, all the, everything. Even when someone gives something, a donation. I think when you go to Pondicherry you have to give some sum, it goes in her bank account, everything is in her name.
Prabhupada: What, what is her work? She is standing simply on Aurobindo's credit, that's all. She has not done anything extraordinary. One Aurobindo asrama inmate, that Kapoor, that Kapoor. You know that Mr. K.C. Kapoor from Kanpur?
Syamasundara: Hm.
Prabhupada: He was in Aurobindo's asrama for some time and then he left. So he told me that woman, one woman was canvassing him, "So why not start ourselves an asrama? You, you become the chief and I become the mother."
All: [laughter]
[End]
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