Carl Gustav Jung
Syamasundara: There is also another psychologist, Carl Jung, he's also very important. He followed Freud.
Revatinandana: To some extent.
Syamasundara: I mean chronologically. Freud's idea was that unconscious processes are invariably infantile, animal, or pathological. Jung said that some unconscious energies are sources of positive and creative activity. That the unconscious is important for the growth and development of the mature and well-adjusted personality. Freud investigated the unconscious and found that the negative side, that our unconscious life is always threatening us, that it is the cause of pathological...
Prabhupada: What do you mean by unconscious life?
Syamasundara: Subconscious, that which we are not consciously aware of...
Prabhupada: That means it is consciousness but it is covered.
Syamasundara: Yes. He says that unconscious part of our mind is dangerous, infantile, animalistic. But Jung says that the unconscious can also be positive and helpful to the growth of our personality, that it can be an asset to understand this unconscious life.
Prabhupada: But I think that the subconscious status as it is covered by the present consciousness, similarly, it can be covered by Krsna consciousness, so that those subconscious states will be no longer able to react.
Syamasundara: He sees a positive or creative function of this unconscious...
Prabhupada: Just like the other day I was citing the sloka of Yamunacarya about sex life. The subconscious status is there, sex life, but because he has got Krsna consciousness, he is spiting on it. That means the subconscious state cannot overcome. So our policy is that you become fully Krsna conscious, and then all the subconscious status which is gathered for life after life, and they are stored, they are in stock, they will not be able to overcome.
Syamasundara: He sees that the mind is composed of a balance of conscious and unconscious, just like light and dark, there's an equal amount, but that the function of the personality is to integrate the conscious and unconscious functions. For instance, if one had a strong sex desire, if somehow he were able to cultivate or channel that into a creative art or a creative value. Just like this brahmacarya, that sex impulse is channelled into higher thinking about Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is our process. Just like sex impulse is natural for everyone in the material (world), but if we think of Krsna embracing Radharani or dancing with the gopis, then our sex impulse becomes subordinate, no more stronger. Hrd-rogam kamam asv apahinoti. Hrd-rogam kamam, this is a heart disease, to be lusty. But if anyone hears about the pastimes of Krsna and the gopis, through right source, then this hrd-rogam, this lusty desire in the heart, is suppressed and he will develop devotional service.
Syamasundara: This is an example of what Jung would call individuation, where the energies of the unconscious sex impulse are channelled into a conscious and creative activity of God realization. So those energies are being utilized in a proper way. This is what he would call integration or individuation.
Prabhupada: This thing I was explaining, this prakrti, it is very scientific. Krsna is the only purusa, enjoyer and if every one of us serves everything in the propensity of His enjoyment, that is our enjoyment. That is our enjoyment-predominated and predominator. Just like, crude example, it is not exact: husband wants to enjoy wife, and the wife voluntarily helps him in that enjoyment, the wife also becomes joyful. Similarly, the supreme enjoyer is Krsna, and if you help Him in His enjoyment, then automatically we become also joyous. Predominated enjoyer and predominator enjoyer. Both of them enjoying but one of them is predominated, one of them is predominator. So predominated, when... He helps to be predominator, reciprocation of enjoyment.
Revatinandana: Srila Prabhupada, there's one point, I think if I understand it, you will say that from the man or a woman being you can see the (indistinct) sex desire is there, from the body comes sex desire. He says then that sex desire can be elevated for self-realization or for some kind of higher...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Revatinandana: No, but for some kind of higher pursuit, that same sex energy can be channelled at what you would call a higher (indistinct).
Revatinandana: But we say that originally there were desires to enjoy coming from the soul. If it is channelled to the body it becomes sex lust, but if it is channelled higher it becomes higher (indistinct) for advancement. It's not coming from sex, it's coming from the soul, is that correct—the desire to enjoy?
Prabhupada: No. Try to understand. Sex desire is there in everyone. So once sex desire is (indistinct) up, male sex desire and female sex desire. The sex desire is there in both male and female, but some from impartial view, it appears that the male is the enjoyer and the female is the enjoyed. So both of them are (indistinct). So the female, if she agrees to be predominated, enjoyed, then naturally she also becomes enjoyer. So living entities are described as prakrti, female. So when the living entities agree to help Krsna's sex desire, then they become happy.
Devotee (2): But it's not by Krsna's sex desire. What is the meaning of the words "Krsna's sex desire"? Krsna's satisfaction?
Prabhupada: Yes. Sense enjoyment, you can say. Sensual enjoyment. Krsna is the supreme proprietor of the senses. So when we help Krsna for His sense enjoyment, then naturally we also (indistinct). Same example, just like a rasagulla. A rasagulla is to be enjoyed. So the hand takes it and puts it into the stomach. The hand does not enjoy it directly. And when it is put into the stomach, the hand also enjoys, the stomach enjoys, the eyes enjoys—everything. The direct enjoyer is Krsna, and all others, indirect enjoyer. By satisfaction of Krsna, others will be satisfied. Not directly. Just like a beloved wife, when she sees the husband is eating nicely and he is enjoying nicely, she becomes happy. She becomes happy. So there are two different categories: the predominated category and the predominator category. So by seeing the predominated happy, the predominator becomes happy. That is (indistinct).
Syamasundara: So in one sense you could say that the conscious mind is the predominator and the unconscious...
Prabhupada: Both of them are conscious, predominated and predominator. Both of them are conscious. Without consciousness there is no life.
Syamasundara: But in the individual personality if there is an unconscious and a consciousness, then the unconsciousness, or the unconscious state, should be predominated by the conscious state. The conscious state...
Prabhupada: That is practically being done. Unconscious or subconscious states sometimes come out. They are not always present. But consciousness is always there.
Syamasundara: But if the consciousness is not the predominator, then sometimes a person's activities will be irrational or unconscious.
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of unconscious. Subconscious, that is there. Yes.
Devotee (3): What is the exact meaning of the term "subconscious"?
Prabhupada: Mm? Consciousness?
Devotee (3): I understand the principle of consciousness, but what is the exact meaning of the word "subconscious"?
Prabhupada: Subconscious means is not acting at the present moment but it comes out sometimes.
Syamasundara: These psychologists say that quite often the unconscious is acting through the conscious, only we don't know.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I say. The subconsciousness is there, but they are not manifest. But sometimes they are manifest. All of a sudden coming. There is no connection. Just like a bubble in the pond. All of a sudden a bubble comes up. You see. So the coming out of the bubble, the energy was there within, all of a sudden it comes out, "Pup!" Yes. And even you trace out why it came, but the, it is to be supposed that it was in the subconscious state; all of a sudden it has manifested.
Devotee (3): The bubble coming up is a sort of a proof that there is a subconscious which is holding that bubble and then it's released it, but where it's parted by these psychologists is that the subconscious nature is moving subconsciously. What it means is that we're not conscious of it; it's acting in a subconscious plane.
Syamasundara: Called a shadow.
Devotee (3): And so our consciousness can be modified by our subconsciousness without our being consciously aware of it.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily.
Devotee (3): That is the idea.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily.
Devotee (3): We're unconscious of the activities of...
Prabhupada: Or sometimes subconscious state manifests which has no connection with my present consciousness.
Revatinandana: Can we say that those subconscious states which sometimes reveal themselves are like stored in impressions in the mind?
Prabhupada: That is stored impression.
Revatinandana: (indistinct) potentially manifest...
Revatinandana: They are potentially manifest, but they don't have to. But they...
Prabhupada: It is just like photograph. If you take so many snap, but not all of them immediately moves.
Revatinandana: So they would posit that there's a mental functioning going on, a thinking functioning going on that we're not conscious of. I think we don't agree with that. Is that correct? We say that there's one mind, sometimes mental impressions come that are stored...
Revatinandana: ...but in that storage area of the consciousness, there is no thinking going on there. Is that correct? The unconsciousness mind is not thinking like the conscious mind.
Prabhupada: No, no. But the impression is there.
Prabhupada: All of a sudden it comes out.
Syamasundara: So Jung says that there are two types of unconscious process. The first...
Prabhupada: Why does he say unconscious?
Syamasundara: Two types of unconscious process.
Revatinandana: No. Subconscious.
Prabhupada: Subconscious, that is the right term. Why does he say? Even in psychology they call "subconscious," why he's speaking "unconscious"?
Syamasundara: The German word is unbewust, which means "unbeknown," so we have translated "unconscious," but it means more like "subconscious."
Prabhupada: Unconsciousness, of course there is, that is not (indistinct) the same thing. That is not manifest. Unconsciousness, but it will manifest.
Syamasundara: He says that there are two kinds of subconscious state. The first one is the personal unconscious, or those personal items which are highly individual from one's previous childhood, from his infantile history, certain things occurred, they were repressed, and so on. These are stored in our own unconscious state and they are aroused into consciousness in dreams and through psychoanalysis. But he also posits another type of unconscious, or subconscious, state called the collective unconscious. He says that evolution has predetermined the human brain to react in terms of basic principles derived from the experience of many generations. In other words, that my ancestors had left impressions in my brain from the time of my birth, how to react according to their experiences. Is this true, that there is a collective experience which is passed on?
Prabhupada: Yes. That experience we say parampara. Evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2]. That is cultivated.
Revatinandana: He would be more..., he would say there is a German mentality, Russian mentality, English mentality, (indistinct) cultural.
Syamasundara: No, no, no. He says that these archetypal tendencies are tendencies to react in a certain manner originating from the remote past, which are true for all humans whether they are primitive savages or whether they are modern men. Just like, well, any tendency...
Prabhupada: We don't take any experience from the primitive savages. That is not parampara. Savages cannot give us any advice or instruction.
Syamasundara: Just like when we investigate different folklores, different mythologies all over the world, we find certain symbols which are the same. For instance the swastika, we find that in the Indian mythology and you find it in Maya or Inca, western Indians' mythologies as well. And different symbols which are common to man all over the globe, whether they are primitive or whether they are advanced, he says that these are archetypal images which for thousands of generations have been passed on in men's consciousness. So that we are composed not only of our own individual thoughts and ingredients but also the ingredients of our ancestors. Is this a fact?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called tradition. That is called tradition. But that is not parampara. Parampara is different. Parampara means we get the right knowledge from the supreme. It is not something ac..., what is called? What he is speaking?
Syamasundara: Acquired. Archetypal. Means the original type.
Prabhupada: My acquired knowledge can be changed by understanding from superior. Just like generally we have got bodily concept of life, but Krsna says, "No. You are not this body." So this knowledge is not coming to me from tradition, but I learn it from great authorities like Krsna.
Syamasundara: But he would, for instance, say that our means..., aware of understanding Krsna as a supreme father, as our cause and so on, is an archetypal tendency that is shared by all human entities, that they have the same tendency to react in that way, to understand someone as their father or as their cause. And they will represent Him in different ways but always..., always similar.
Prabhupada: Yes. We see that. Exactly similar. Rather, this father is (indistinct). Krsna, or God, is the supreme father. It is similar. As father has many sons, similarly Krsna has many sons. You can say it is similar. As sons are born, children are born of father, similarly, we are born of Krsna. It is similar.
Syamasundara: For instance, in the dream life, our dream life, in the dream life of savages or anyone else on this planet, certain common occurrences take place in the dream. Sometimes we feel we are flying in dreams, or sometimes we feel that there's a disruption coming from below, or certain symbols are there, common to all men. He calls these archetypes or the collective unconscious. All human beings share these propensities.
Prabhupada: Mm. We have no objection in that way.
Revatinandana: Srila Prabhupada, is it possible, or is it confirmed that the similarities in symbolism and cultural relationships, which are similar in civilizations all over the world, can that be due to the fact that they are all coming from the same source? Five thousand years ago there was one culture?
Revatinandana: So you find the same symbols in the South American Incas as we find in India as we find in the Pacific Islands because they are coming down from the original Vedic culture in different states of...
Prabhupada: Vedic culture or non-Vedic culture, there are so many similarities. It doesn't matter. Because you are living being, the similarities are there. Just like every living being eats. It is similar to everyone. Every living being sleeps. It is similar to everyone. Every living being mates. It is similar to everyone. Every living being fears. So you have to take the greatest common factor. There are so many similarities.
Syamasundara: He would say also that every human being may draw a circle to represent something which is whole and complete.
Prabhupada: That is religion. These four principles are similar to every living entity. But when you come to the human platform, there is religion. That is not in the animal. That is the distinctive function of the human being. So if human being (is) without any religious principles, he is similar to animal. Dharmena hina pasubhih samanah. Therefore in every group of civilized human society, there is some sort of religion. It may be Hindu religion, Christian religion, Buddhist religion, but tendency is to accept some religion. And religion means understanding of God and our relationship with Him. So the modern civilization, according to Darwin's theory, they are advancing to become animal. That's it. Therefore they are claiming their forefathers are coming from monkeys. That somebody said on the other day, Vivekananda was asked that "Why your Indian forefathers did not come, long years ago?" He answered, "Because your forefathers were jumping in the tree." (laughter) It is very nice answer. "Our forefathers did not come because your forefathers were jumping in the tree."
Syamasundara: So this investigation by Jung opened up a new kind of universality in philosophy because it was seen that the same symbols are common to all men, of all religions.
Prabhupada: As soon as you come to the platform of human being, there is one similarity: religion. It may be under different name. Even in the aborigines, there is religion. Just like Red Indian, they have a religion.
Syamasundara: Yes. And they have the same symbols, many of them.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, that is a common concept. To accept some type of religion, this is common. Now, that type of religion may be different from me, but the principle is there. Just like eating principle is there, sleeping principle is there; similarly religious principle is there.
Syamasundara: And he said that each culture, or civilization, religion, they have the same understanding of the duality of existence, that there's an equal amount of dark, an equal amount of light, which he calls the yin and yang aspect or the anima and animus aspect. Under different names the same understanding is there in all religions.
Prabhupada: Is that equality, darkness?
Syamasundara: Darkness and lightness—the duality of nature. Unconscious and conscious, he calls; these two things. He says that everyone has..., understands these are equal, balanced, these two stages, states of existence.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily equal. Sometimes it may be imbalance. One side may be heavier than the other.
Syamasundara: Yes. Actually he says that most personalities are imbalanced and that the goal of life is to become balanced, or integrated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hmm.
Syamasundara: So he says that not only individual analysis and dream interpretation are there, but also we must examine folklore, myth, religions, symbolisms and all these, to get a better psychological insight into the unconscious process.
Prabhupada: So better psychology is that first of all human being or lower than human being. Lower than human being, they have got four principles—eating, sleeping, mating, and fearing—and human being extra, religion. Now which religion is higher, that you have to study. So that answer is given in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: the religious system which develops towards loving God, that is first class.
Syamasundara: So if they are loving God, automatically either unconscious or conscious states are all balanced, brought together.
Prabhupada: The loving propensity is already there, (indistinct) loving God. So somebody is loving, it's a fact. So loving propensity is there, but the loving propensity is misled; therefore he becomes (indistinct). Instead of loving (indistinct), if you love Krsna then our loving propensity becomes perfect.
Syamasundara: This Jung, Carl Jung, I studied with his disciples in Zurich for six months one winter, and he came..., toward the end of his life he became very religious. At the beginning he was an atheist, but after this study he began to understand that the perfect end of psychology is to integrate and become balanced as a personality. And the best way, the only way, the time-tested way, is to be a religious person.
Prabhupada: Means to become a religious person means to become a lover of God. Did he love God or something else?
Syamasundara: Yes. He became very much religious, and all his disciples are very religious, but in sort of a mystic way, not, not so much an organized religion. A little bit of hodge-podge.
Prabhupada: That is no (indistinct). Without clear conception of God, must be hodge-podge.
Syamasundara: But they lean toward the east, toward Krsna consciousness, in the end—Buddhism, Krsna consciousness.
Syamasundara: Tibetan Buddhism.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) Tibetan Buddhism.
Nara-narayana: Mystical understanding of good and evil forces, embodied good and evil forces, demonic forces, demonic persons. So that at the time of death the person is supposed to be floating for some time, and he can fall into the (indistinct) of demonic or be helped by good forces to achieve some liberation or higher birth.
Syamasundara: Actually this Jung has had a great impact on modern thinkers, because he took psychology out of the laboratories and made it more a human science, a personal, personality science that involves unconscious states, mystic states, religious states, not just something analytical and cold. And especially younger people are very much fond of hearing (indistinct).
Devotee (3): (indistinct) this Carl Jung drew a picture of what he thought the face of a realized soul might look like, a person, a person in perfect knowledge. And that picture was printed, and it looks like Prabhupada. (laughter) (indistinct)
Syamasundara: His investigation of symbols around the world, he found that the symbols most used for someone who has realized the self are the jewel and the child—these two symbols. These are symbolic of someone who has attained the ultimate perfection. A jewel and the child.
Prabhupada: Jew and the...
Syamasundara: Jewel, jewel.
Prabhupada: Oh, jewel.
Syamasundara: And a child.
Prabhupada: How child has attained perfection?
Syamasundara: The same kind of innocent happiness that a child has.
Prabhupada: Then when he grows he deteriorates. If he has attained perfection, how does he deteriorates?
Prabhupada: Whatever idea it may be, he could say it is perfect, then how it deteriorates?
Syamasundara: Well, it's just a symbol of someone who has achieved perfection, that they are childlike, that they are happy and jolly, innocent.
Prabhupada: That is another thing.
Prabhupada: But the child is not perfection.
Syamasundara: No. It's only a symbol.
Revatinandana: (indistinct) The child symbolizes faith and...
Syamasundara: Love and...
Revatinandana: ...natural devotion. Like Jesus said, "Unless you come to me as little children, you can't enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: That's (indistinct).
Syamasundara: Even Krsna, Krsna's often portrayed as a child.
Revatinandana: He's eternally child, sixteen years old (indistinct).
Nara-narayana: (indistinct) a symbol (indistinct) Narada Muni, or yourself or Krsna, (indistinct) symbol of a child. We have an actual person.
Devotee (3): (indistinct)
Syamasundara: Anyway, another one of his ideas is that the unconscious material on the person's personality sometimes emerges in the form of a complex, what's called a complex. This complex has the ability to initiate and organize behavior. Sometimes we say someone has a superiority complex or an inferiority complex or this complex or that complex. It means that they tend to act in a certain way. Inferiority complex means I consider myself inferior to others, and I react in a very inhibited fashion. Or if I have a superiority complex I act in a very arrogant fashion. Like that. These are his observations, that people who act in certain ways which are called complexes.
Prabhupada: So we are..., what we are? Inferior or superior? Krsna conscious, we think ourselves as servant of God. Is that inferior or superior?
Syamasundara: Well, our practice is not unconscious.
Prabhupada: No. We are conscious.
Syamasundara: We are conscious, so we do not rely on the complex to guide us, or an unconscious impulse to guide us.
Prabhupada: No. We are not guided by impulse. We are guided directly, instruction from the superior.
Prabhupada: Our process is to acquire knowledge from the superior. We are not guided by these complexes.
Syamasundara: He said that there are two basic attitudes: an extrovert attitude and an introvert attitude. An extrovert has an outgoing orientation; they are always friendly and sociable. An introvert has an inward withdrawal from his environment and is always very quiet and meditative. These two types of personalities, he sees existing everywhere. And all of us, we are these..., one or other of these personalities.
Prabhupada: I think introvert, yes. Muni.
Revatinandana: The introspective.
Devotee (3): There's a difference between an introspective person and an introvert. An introvert, somebody who is concerned with his false ego, turns in on himself, that he doesn't express himself outwardly to others, while an extrovert does. "Vert" means "to turn." So he's turned in upon himself, on his own personality.
Devotees: Self-centered, yes.
Devotee (5): An extrovert is also self-centered, he keeps himself in the center of a large social structure. He only considers his own personality without interacting with others.
Devotee (3): One has more or less one or the other...
Prabhupada: But how do you say that man is a social animal? How can you avoid society?
Syamasundara: An introvert doesn't avoid society, but in all his activities he doesn't relate to others actively. He'll go to school, he goes to the things that he has to do, but he's always very quiet and timid, shy.
Nara-narayana: A mouse is an introvert, and a tiger is an extrovert. A tiger is an extrovert. He doesn't care for anyone.
Prabhupada: But the mouse is also.
Devotee: He's like that?
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct-many talking together)
Revatinandana: It seems like this introverted personality actually covers two different personalities. One is that kind of people who are dreamers, who have retreated from the world, and the other kind of people who actually (are) introspective, who are looking for truth. These can be two people within that category.
Devotee (6): We have bhajananandi and gosthyanandi.
Syamasundara: Yeah, extrovert and introvert.
Syamasundara: Yeah, that's the same classification. Everywhere people are one or the other of those. Active or passive.
Revatinandana: It seems like the extrovert is (indistinct), that the extroverted person's in the mode of passion.
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct)
Prabhupada: That is right.
Revatinandana: So that is not (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So similar, that there are the paramahamsa and there are mleccha-yavanas. The paramahamsa is not under any rules and regulations, and the mlecchas also, they are not under rules and regulations.
Revatinandana: Like Sukadeva Gosvami, they thought he was a madman, and this would be tamoguna, but actually he was...
Devotee (3): It's time for massage now, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: All right. [break]
Syamasundara: So today we'll finish that psychologist Jung, Carl Jung. As we were discussing before, his idea is that there is a collective unconscious, there is an unconscious state of mind and there is a conscious state of mind. The inner, the working between these two, conscious and unconscious, determines the personality of the living entity. The behavior of the living entity is determined by the interaction between his unconscious and his conscious...
Prabhupada: That is called, in Sanskrit, (indistinct), (indistinct) and susupti. When you are fully conscious, that is called (indistinct). And (indistinct), dreaming, that (indistinct). And another state, susupti, no consciousness. That is (indistinct). It is called... Operation?
Syamasundara: This dreaming state he calls unconscious also.
Prabhupada: No. That is conscious. I am dreaming, I am conscious. That is not unconscious.
Syamasundara: He says that in this dream state...
Prabhupada: Suppose if a tiger is coming to attack me, I am crying, and people are hearing. How do you say it is unconscious?
Syamasundara: I don't know the terms.
Devotee (3): The subject matter of which one is unaware in the waking state is termed by him the unconscious. But there is consciousness there, and because of that, the terminology is not...
Syamasundara: The contents of the unconscious come into a conscious mind during dreams...
Prabhupada: That is consciousness. That is dream. You can say dream. You must analyze scientifically. Dream goes such-and-such. But anaesthetic stage is unconscious. When your throat is being been cut up, you (indistinct). But in sleeping state, if (indistinct) immediately (indistinct). That is not unconscious.
Syamasundara: In other words, he says that there are many factors which are unconscious which determine our personality that we may not be aware of-many hopes, many fears, many contents of our own consciousness that clarify our personality and which we are not aware of...
Prabhupada: Yes, (indistinct). Just like when we are in the womb of our mother. Up to seven months we are unconscious. That means to remain unconscious for seven months, that is death. Living entity does not die; he remains unconscious for seven months.
Devotee (5): That's actually susupti?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] (indistinct) ...anaesthetic, when the medicinal effect is lost, it comes. Zero mistake. (indistinct) come. These are three stages: consciousness, dream, and unconsciousness. So he does not know susupti. He simply considers the dreaming unconsciousness. When he sees dream, he thinks (indistinct).
Syamasundara: Not really... But because there are so many unconscious factors that govern our personality, our behavior, that unless a person becomes aware of these unconscious factors, then he is more or less a slave to them, to his unconscious life. So the whole point of psychology is to point out to a person all his unconscious contents, that he becomes aware of them and faces them face to face.
Prabhupada: That we are teaching. That we have shown. But he remains unconscious state. That is (indistinct). That we are teaching. We are simply, loudly stating, "Please wake up. Please wake up. We are not this body. We are not this body." So these are the (indistinct) dream. You cannot raise him to the consciousness. He is fully packed up in matter. That is not possible. But he is also conscious. That is proved by (indistinct). He applied machine: in the remote part he is feeling the pain when you cut. But it is not very manifest. Just like children, they are not so conscious, you operate. I have got a (indistinct), my eldest daughter, she (indistinct). So she was about less than one year... No, no. About six months. The doctor was operating, (indistinct). She was not frightened. (indistinct) Minor operation. So the human form of life is the developed consciousness of the living entity. In other forms of life they're more or less in dreaming state or unconscious state. But as living entity, the consciousness is there, in different stages.
Syamasundara: Yes, he (indistinct) in all mythology and religion and all of these so-called scientific symbols for the conscious state and the unconscious state. Just like the unconscious state is often represented as the ocean.
Syamasundara: The unconscious state is often represented or symbolized by the ocean or (indistinct) or as the...
Prabhupada: What is that?
Syamasundara: The ocean.
Prabhupada: Ocean has no consciousness. It is matter.
Syamasundara: Well, as a symbol...
Syamasundara: ...of the unconscious state. They are often represented as an ocean or as a figure of what he called the anima.
Prabhupada: He mentions animals?
Devotee: No. He called it anima. It's a Greek word for the female aspect of nature.
Syamasundara: And the male aspect is often represented by the sun or (indistinct) sky or the father, called the animus, the father aspect of nature.
Prabhupada: Yes. We also compare sun as the (indistinct) knowledge. Just like we compare Krsna with sun and maya with darkness.
Syamasundara: And maya is a woman.
Prabhupada: Maya is woman. You can compare like that, darkness. Krsna surya-sama maya andhakara [Cc. Madhya 22.31]. So as soon as there is sunshine, there is no more darkness. Similarly, when, as soon as there is Krsna consciousness, there is no more that state of unconsciousness or dreaming. (indistinct) conscious.
Syamasundara: He says that all human entities have a mixture of divine and demonic tendencies.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is divine by nature. He is covered by nondivine, by maya. That is our philosophy. He's in a (indistinct). Just like this same example: the man is living, there is breathing, but he has no consciousness. Just like you put electric in that (indistinct), how you call, (indistinct). So similarly, by the influence of maya, we have forgotten ourself, our spiritual nature.
Syamasundara: He says that this unconscious state or this, I don't know, maybe we can call it maya, the unconscious life, has also beneficial effects in that it...
Prabhupada: What is that beneficial?
Syamasundara: That it's also a reservoir of creative energy. If it is utilized properly, then it can be an asset.
Prabhupada: When (indistinct) utilize it. A person who has, who is under the influence of anaesthetic, what he can do? He cannot do anything. He has to drop again to consciousness platform, then he can do something.
Syamasundara: He says that behavior is classified under different functions, for example there is sensory behavior, thinking behavior, fear and emotional behavior...
Prabhupada: That is (indistinct), because the animals, the consciousness is not developed, and the animals' behavior is different. Similarly, if a man is not in this Krsna consciousness, (indistinct) any difference? Krsna conscious person, he'll not act anything like killing one animal, but another who is not Krsna conscious, he will kill animals: "I must kill. I must kill." But the same man, when he is brought into Krsna consciousness, he'll refuse. Just like the shikari, (indistinct), he was killing animal, half dead, he would enjoy. The same man, by grace of Narada, when he became Vaisnava, he was not prepared to kill even one ant. So the man is the same, the consciousness is different. So our program is like that. To bring man into Krsna consciousness, he will become perfect.
Syamasundara: He says that these different functions, people can be typified or classified as being more or less in one of these types of functions. We describe a man as a thinking man or a feeling man, a sensory man...
Prabhupada: That we also say, that just like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra—in terms of different stages of consciousness. So the highest stage is the Vaisnava.
Syamasundara: How is..., how does Vaisnava act? What are his...?
Syamasundara: So he is both. He is all these things. He is thinking, he is feeling...
Syamasundara: So his idea is that everyone adapts to their environment, either as, according to one of these three things: extroversion, introversion, or a dominant function. So...
Prabhupada: That we also say. According to material condition of life, they differ, they are classified. The highest stage is Vaisnava. He is completely transcendental (to) material condition. Next the brahmana, then next the ksatriya, then next the vaisya, then next the sudra, and next means less than sudra, all candalas. But Krsna consciousness, because that is natural, even from the candala stage one can be brought to the highest transcendental stage of Vaisnava.
Syamasundara: So would you say that the lower stages of life are, could be termed irrational, and the higher stages of life termed rational?
Prabhupada: Yes. Righteous.
Syamasundara: So the consciousness becomes more and more developed...
Syamasundara: ...as we proceed higher.
Prabhupada: Not developed. Uncovered. There are different layers of material contamination. So that has to be cleansed. (aside:) You can come this side. (indistinct). The more the layers are cleansed, his original consciousness come out. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleaning the dirty things accumulated on the heart.
Syamasundara: So consciousness is not the (indistinct)...
Prabhupada: Consciousness, as soon as they (indistinct), then consciousness is there. That is the symptom of living condition.
Syamasundara: Although the consciousness of a tree...
Prabhupada: Just like fire. There is fire, so cover it. Covering, covering. When it is true cover, then they don't get the heat and light. But they cleanse the covering, move the covering, the fire is there.
Syamasundara: So even the consciousness of the tree is originally higher than (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes. It is simply covered. The potency is there. Just like a flower in the bud stage, the potency is there to become a (indistinct) flower. So the covering by gradually coming out, coming out, finally, very beautiful rose.
Syamasundara: But someone would say that that bud is developing into a flower.
Prabhupada: That is a (indistinct) in the terminology. Just like we say that we are changing bodies, they say developing bodies. So anyway, either you say developing or changing, the original body is not there. That you have to accept. The child's body, either you say it has developed into youth's body, and either you say that is (indistinct) body. I say the child's body is gone; it is another body. In both cases, the child's body is no longer existing. That you have to agree—either you call developed or it has gone.
Syamasundara: He says that the personality which we manifest in our social lives, in our family life, at work, etc., is called our persona, or our mask. We have to present a certain personality in our family and social and our working life, which is...
Prabhupada: This is (indistinct), this mask. Just like your face is covered with some mask. That mask is taken away, uncovered, then your real face is seen. So it is not development; it is covering. He cannot say that I saw you just like a monkey's face, but when the mask is taken away, become a beautiful gentleman face. This gentleman's face is not developed, it is already there. Simply it was covered by the mask and you take it away and you see your real self. That is our process, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The mirror is covered with dust, and you cleanse it and see your face nicely. So it is not the developing process, it is cleansing process.
Syamasundara: So he says that we show ourself to the world not as our total self...
Syamasundara: ...but that we show a picture of ourself...
Prabhupada: That we call ignorance, ajnana. And that ajnana is moved by the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master is worshiped, ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana salakaya. "I was covered by the darkness of ignorance and the spiritual master has moved that darkness by giving me knowledge, jnananjana."
Syamasundara: So this persona, or this mask that someone wears, or show it to their family or their friends, is not the whole self. He says that the, behind that mask there is what's called the shadow, or those repressed dispositions which a person has but does not show.
Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavatam, apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2]. Those who are not seeing the position of spiritual, as the spirit soul, they are so much attached in this family life, worldly life, national life, (indistinct) material life, this life, that life. They are all false, but because he has no knowledge of the soul, he is attached to all these things. Apasyatam atma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Atma-tattvam means the science of soul. That he does not know; therefore he is attached, grhesu grha-medhinam. These are different types of grha. Just like a man is not very much advanced in nationalism, he thinks "This my house is everything." And one who has developed that like Gandhi, his family life developed into nationalism. So that is also grha. He is asking, I mean to say, Englishman, "Go away! It is mine." But that mahatma, that greatness is simply expanding beyond the grha. He's a still grha-medhi. We don't say like that, "Oh, you Englishman, you cannot have Krsna consciousness." So that, therefore, those who are Krsna conscious, they are mahatma. (indistinct) These kind of mahatmas, they are not mahatma, they are grha-medhis, but they have been given the title, false title. Just like in Bengali we say, the mother's love is child, and the child is blind. Still, "Oh, my child's eyes are just like lotus flower." (greets guests) [break]
Syamasundara: So in other words, Jung is saying that we have our personality that we show to the world but we also have a personality which we don't show to the world, which is secret which is repressed, which we don't like to reveal.
Prabhupada: That is, that is called cheating. Yes. In Sanskrit it is called bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karana. Vipralipsa, that is one of the tendencies of the conditioned soul, that he wants to cheat others. So their confidential means cheating.
Syamasundara: For instance, someone may have some kind of desire which he does not like to reveal to others, so he keeps it suppressed, unconscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is politics. That is diplomacy. Canakya Pandita advises, (Sanskrit): "Don't manifest your intentions by your words, since you are thinking (indistinct)." These things are required because it is material world. Canakya Pandita has advised, tato sastram samadvayam (?). The people are cheaters, so you have to become cheater also; otherwise you cannot live. What can you say? Just like a shopkeeper, everyone knows that he is making profit, but he has to make bargain. So a shopkeeper says, "I am taking (indistinct). You are my friend, I am not taking a single paisa profit." How he'll do it, come on (indistinct). But if you know that he is making business, he must make profit. But he's cheated. He doesn't want to be cheated. That's all. So therefore my Guru Maharaja used to say that "This is a society of cheaters and the cheated." That's all.
Syamasundara: Sometimes this shadow personality, he says, is not even known to myself. I don't even know my...
Prabhupada: Why you will know? You are being cheated. How can you know?
Syamasundara: I mean my own personality. I think I am this, but actually I am that.
Prabhupada: That is also true, because when one is not Krsna conscious or self conscious, he thinks this body as "I am." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13], sa eva go-kharah. So such persons who identify the body as the self, he is no better than the ass and the cow.
Syamasundara: For instance, I may think that I am like this, I am like that, but I don't realize that I am also like this. There's some other part of me which I'm not aware of which is guiding my behavior, which I repress.
Prabhupada: Unless one comes to Krsna consciousness, he thinks (indistinct), that "I am like this," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brahmana," "I am this," "I am that." But when he's fully conscious, he knows that "I am eternal servant of Krsna." That is the final (indistinct). Otherwise he (indistinct), "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."
Revatinandana: (indistinct) actor who take parts in a cinema production, he said that whenever he takes a part he probably could becomes, that actor, he (indistinct), or the part that he actually forgets who he thinks he is.
Prabhupada: Yes. The best actor is he who forgets his real identity and plays blindly. That is best actor. He forgets, but he creates such (indistinct) that he forgets that he's Mr. Such-and-such.
Syamasundara: Yes, but secretly, unknown to him there may be something about him that he does not know himself...
Prabhupada: So therefore (indistinct) we are after (indistinct). Therefore we have forgotten our self but we are identifying "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."
Prabhupada: (indistinct). Yes. So (indistinct) occupation.
Syamasundara: He says that the purpose of psychology is to come to grips with our unconscious or our shadow personality, and we must know who I am completely.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real knowledge. That is real (indistinct). Just like Sanatana Gosvami presented himself to Lord Caitanya, "Please let me know what I am." This is the business. It requires the assistance of guru to understand our real identity.
Syamasundara: For instance, he says that all male personalities, in their shadow personality, there is a bit of the female, and in all females there is a bit of the male propensity. So often we cover these up and become repressed and we do not understand our actions.
Prabhupada: That is our philosophy, because every living entity is by nature a female, prakrti. I was discussing this morning, para prakrti, living entity, but it is prakrti. Prakrti means female and purusa means male. So here in this material world, although we are prakrti, we are (indistinct) ourselves as purusa. This male-female dress, that is immaterial. Our consciousness is now male consciousness. A female, the so-called female, here, she also wants to enjoy a male, and the male also, he also wants to enjoy the female. Both of them have the same propensity of enjoying. So this enjoying propensity is for male. Therefore jivatma is sometimes described as purusa. But actually the jivatma, the living entities, they are purusa, he's prakrti. Prakrti means predominated, and purusa means predominator. So we are all predominated. And the (indistinct) predominator is Krsna. Therefore originally, by constitution, we are all females.
Syamasundara: But in the male, so-called male species, there's a different temperament. There's dominance, there's aggressiveness...
Prabhupada: No, no. There is no difference in temperament. The real (indistinct), the center (indistinct). Just like in your country it is the women is very (indistinct) that why they shall not be treated exactly like men. And the same thing is coming in our country also.
Syamasundara: And the men also want to have long hair and...
Prabhupada: Actually, the real position is that every living entity is female, originally. But falsely he is imitating to become a male, enjoy. This is called maya. Actually he is female, but he is trying to imitate the supreme male, Krsna. That is called maya. This is not fact. So our proposition is, Krsna consciousness, that you come to the original state, Krsna consciousness. You are not predominator, you are predominated. Predominated means female.
Syamasundara: So for instance in nature, he sees male and female characteristics. For instance a mountain, we see a mountain and we give it a male, a male characteristic because it is strong, it is dominant, it is (indistinct), like this. And the sea, which is passive and calm and deep, we give a female aspect. He sees all these in nature.
Prabhupada: These are all mental concoction. It has to be more scientifical. You can think of something in your own idea. That's all. That is not the real identity of it. What is that?
Devotee (3): You said that all things are created out of the water of origination. There's an ocean, the Karanodaka, by which all these worlds are generated, (indistinct) the primeval ocean, from which (indistinct) the ocean...
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the ocean has been generated? Everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Visnu. Visnu is lying in that ocean, that's all. So I'm lying on this bed, and something is coming out of my breathing, that does not mean it is coming from the bed. That's all.
Devotee (3): That is the reference to the ocean of the womb.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) You can say like that. (indistinct) And the child is floating in that water.
Syamasundara: Well, are there not certain characteristics that are particularly male and certain characteristics that are particularly female?
Prabhupada: Male is only God. That is the characteristic. Male means enjoyer and female means enjoyed. So except God, except Krsna, nobody is enjoyer. Therefore He's God.
Syamasundara: So it's a false idea to think that anything is masculine besides God.
Prabhupada: Masculine is a different (indistinct). Masculine gender. So that is called (indistinct), symbolic. But a real male is Krsna.
Syamasundara: So what is masculine?
Prabhupada: Masculine, that means the symbolic representation in the material body is called masculine. Just like we (indistinct)... Just like in Bengali it is said, when you see cow, whether you see male or female, you just raise up the tail and you will understand. So a cow, I mean to say, vagina is covered by the tail, so if you raise on the tail of a calf by, simply by raising the tail you can understand whether it is a male calf or female calf. So this science is a representation of the mentality.
Syamasundara: So the mentality of God.
Prabhupada: Not God—of the particular living entity.
Syamasundara: So to say that, for instance, the ocean is a female, has female characteristics, and the mountain has masculine characteristics...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) I do not know why the ocean has female characteristics (indistinct).
Syamasundara: Well, they say "mother ocean." They sometimes say "mother ocean."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is just like because ocean keeps within, her cover, covering element. (indistinct) element. As the female keeps the child covered within the abdomen, so in that comparison you can say "mother." But similarly in the mountain also, there are so many minerals, so many gems, and so many nice stones. Simply by saying it is very strong. So generally male is strong and the female is weak. In that sense you can give a terminology.
Syamasundara: So he gives a definition of the cell. He says that "The cell is a center or an organization within the personality which seeks to develop towards a goal of maturity and integration, the harmonious bonds of conscious and unconscious disposition." So he says that within the personality there's a center, which strives to organize the personality in such a way that anything is integrated, unconscious and unconscious. Unconscious and conscious states are all integrated, in harmony. This is the cell.
Prabhupada: What is the explanation, unconscious?
Prabhupada: Soul, soul at the present moment as we take it, that is... Present moment his real consciousness is covered. That we are always discussing.
Syamasundara: He doesn't see a soul, per se, he sees that a personality or a...
Prabhupada: What is that personality? As soon as we come to the personality... Entity, that we call soul. Individual entity, adding personality, that is soul.
Syamasundara: He would call personality a set of behavior which is organized...
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the personality comes? Because you are a living entity, you have got separate identity, therefore I recognize your personality. So without individual soul, how you can think of personality? There is no question of personality unless there is that individual living entity.
Revatinandana: Is he saying that the self is an entity that tries to coordinate the conscious and unconscious?
Revatinandana: Or is the self the interaction of the conscious and unconscious.
Syamasundara: No. He says that the self strives for an integration and a harmonious balance of the conscious and unconscious dispositions.
Prabhupada: That, that can be explained in this way. Just like a soul who is now in sleeping state, he can be taught into Krsna consciousness. So that unconscious, if he says unconsciousness, sleeping state, that is integrated. So in that way you can explain. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,
"You are living entity, just get up, get up, get up! How long you shall sleep in this way under the lap, of the lap of maya?" Jiv jago.
bhajibo boliya ese samsara-bhitare
bhuliya rohile tumi maya-pisacira bhare
enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi
hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi
So this is the process, hari-nama, gradually bringing the sleeping man to the real consciousness of life. And that is education. (indistinct).
Syamasundara: So actually he is defining the soul but he doesn't call it the soul.
Prabhupada: He has no idea of the soul. Poor fund of knowledge
Syamasundara: He calls it the center.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is missing the point.
Syamasundara: He says that the self is very rarely complete or unified. Very rarely do we find someone who is unified, or have balanced their life, integrated their life. So his idea is that everyone must strive to achieve the self, that they must realize the self. This is the purpose of our lives.
Prabhupada: That we are preaching. (Sanskrit) "Now we are human form of life, you can understand your position." That is our repeated request, repeated request, that don't waste this opportunity.
Revatinandana: So when he says that the self is rarely completely balanced or integrated, so we say the self is always very stable. The self is always existing, always balanced, unchanging. So he's considering...
Prabhupada: When he's in influence of maya, he's imbalanced. Imbalance and ignorance. Not in knowledge. Therefore he's called maya.
Revatinandana: The consciousness is...
Prabhupada: Consciousness is there, consciousness is always there. As far as there is soul, there is consciousness. But this consciousness is colored. Just like generally water is transparent, but if you mix with color, it becomes reddish. Just like rain falls from the sky, it is distilled water, pure water, but as soon as it touches the earth it becomes muddy. Similarly, the soul is pure consciousness, Krsna consciousness, but when it comes in contamination with the three modes of material nature, it becomes a different color. So at that time they fight, "I am Hindu, you are Mussulman," or "You are Christian," "I am (indistinct)" "I am white," "You are black," because he has been contaminated by different colors of the material modes of nature. He is identifying with that colorful position in the body. This is ignorance. This (indistinct).
Syamasundara: So if someone is given knowledge of their unknown self, or their shadow personality, and they integrate that knowledge in their conscious life and to act as a unifying personality...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That man who is giving knowledge, he is called guru.
Syamasundara: I see. So this type of knowledge has to be done, he would say, through a psychiatrist or a psychoanalyst.
Prabhupada: Anyway, somebody has to do it. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. He must approach a guru to discover his...
Syamasundara: Yes. So he says here, "Potentialities which are hitherto unexploited and which lie covered in him can be brought out by the knowing self and utilized."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our process. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is acting as guru, and He's asking everyone, jiv jago jiv jago. Therefore the conclusion should be that in order to come to the real position of our life, we must approach a guru, a person who knows what is what.
Syamasundara: So that person can see us for what we are, more than we can see ourselves.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like here is a physician, he knows simply by feeling his pulse beating, he can understand what is his position. And he gives medicine according to that. Ayur-vedic system is very nice. One has to learn how this pulse is beating, then immediately diagnosis is there, medicine is given.
Syamasundara: These psychologists like Jung, all have different processes for finding out a person's unconscious mind. For instance, interpreting his dreams, or by sometimes they put a picture, they say, "How do you look at this picture? What do you see in this picture?"
Prabhupada: But he does not know what is the standard status of the mind. He doesn't know. Even the psychiatrist, he is also not in sane mind. "Physician heal thyself." Because he's identifying himself with this body, so he is also insane. So that treatment will not perfect. How a diseased man can become a physician? Therefore the English word is, "Physician heal thyself."
Syamasundara: So this Jung sees a positive aspect of psychology, not just the negative aspect, whereas Freud saw that the goal of psychology was to restrict or reach (indistinct) these powerful, primitive instincts then to mitigate troublesome symptoms, which is a rather pessimistic or negative philosophy. Jung says that man is capable of changing positively into something better by the use of psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise why he was making this propaganda unless there is chance that we will be better? And actually we see they are becoming better.
Syamasundara: So actually this Krsna consciousness is also psychology.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) That is the term of psychology. Therefore Krsna recommends, yoginam api sarvesam: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, the Krsna devotee is the highest, topmost." All, of all psychologists, the person who is Krsna conscious is the most elevated. Transcendental position. Everyone is within the modes of the material nature, but a Krsna conscious person is above, transcendental. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].
Syamasundara: In one sense Jung is very optimistic that he sees that everyone has divine and demonic potencies in the (indistinct), but that the divine potencies can be brought out in everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we are trying. That we are trying. We are trying to make the demons liberated. Actually there is two positions: the divinity and the demon. There are two classes of men: the demon and the divine. The divine means Krsna conscious. And just opposite, he is not Krsna conscious, he is a demon. That's all. Demon and divine, this is the difference. So long one is not Krsna conscious, he is demon.
Syamasundara: He says that (indistinct). These tendencies, demonic tendencies, that (indistinct) a personality, Jung sees them often as external beings that have entered into us.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like to become feverish, that is not my natural state. Under certain circumstances, I have become weak (indistinct) fever, but that is not my natural condition. If medicine is given, the fever is gone. Then I am (indistinct), and that is called mukti. Mukti, liberation, means to get out of this feverish condition. That's all. (indistinct) mukta, in Sanskrit it is called. Roga is not natural. It comes, disease comes. So whatever disease... Therefore Bhagavad-gita says, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], that all these four things are disease, externally. Otherwise the living entity has no birth, no death, no disease, no illness. Nitya sasta (Sanskrit). How they're getting older? These are externalities. People are so ignorant that they don't know how to drive away these external (indistinct) conditions. They think it is natural, "Let me suffer." That is their ignorance.
Syamasundara: One of Jung's favorite techniques for improving a person's personality is to force that person to bring up the demonic force in himself and treat it as another person. If the demon within me is not really me, it's another personality which causes...
Prabhupada: That is not very important, how one becomes affected by some disease. But when the disease is there, the treatment must be there. That is natural. Instead of tracing out the history, what is the use? That the disease is there, make treatment and be cured, that's all.
Syamasundara: But this demon that haunts me, that is another personality besides my real personality.
Prabhupada: That is not a... Personality, I am. Just like delirium, the same personality, but he's talking nonsense in delirium. If you remove the delirium condition, then he becomes again the original person. Delirium is not person.
Syamasundara: Oh, I see.
Indian man: (indistinct)
Syamasundara: When we say that a person is ghostly haunted, does that mean there is another personality which is inhabiting his...
Syamasundara: So that that...
Prabhupada: Just like a man is hypnotized. Another man is hypnotizing him.
Syamasundara: Oh. So that other personality, the foreign personality, can be... (end)
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