Hayagriva: This is Plotinus. Plotinus lived from 204-269 A.D. He was not Christian. He took... He's what's called a neo-Platonist, a new Platonist. Much of his philosophy comes from Plato. But he believed in the theory of emanation, that the soul emanates from the intelligence, what Aristotle called the nous, or the intelligence, and the intelligence emanates from the One, what he calls the One, who is omnipresent, transcendental, the cause of all multiplicities, the Lord of all. So there's a hierarchy in Plotinus of the One, the intelligence, and the individual souls.

Prabhupada: The One is Vedic conception, ekam brahma dvitiyam nasti, Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth, advaya-jnana. So this is our philosophy, that these living entities, soul, they are of the same quality as the one Supreme, but they are fragmental parts, emanation from Him. He has got the same intelligence, same mind, but limited jurisdiction. God is... That One is omnipresent, but we are not omnipresent, but we are present. Omniscient; but we are not omniscient, but we are (sic:) sentient, not that dull matter. In this way, that One has got all spiritual qualities in fullness; we have got spiritual qualities in minute quantity. That is our constitutional position. But we are like sparks, and the Supreme One is like big fire. When we leave the association of the big fire, as sparks we become extinguished, means our illumination stops. That is called maya, maya andhakara, darkness. That we can revive also, again be put with the One and revive our illuminating power, spiritual power, and live with the Supreme One peacefully, eternal life of bliss.

Hayagriva: Plotinus is an impersonalist. He believed that attributing attributes to God limit God.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hayagriva: He believes that attributing qualities to God necessarily limit God, so he's an impersonalist.

Prabhupada: Limit?

Hayagriva: Limit. Any attribute or quality is by necessary limiting. This is a typical impersonalist stand.

Prabhupada: If he is...

Hayagriva: That the One, the One is transcendental, but there's no multiplicity in Him. That means im..., impersonal. Although He is the cause of all multiplicities, He is the cause of all living entities, He Himself...

Prabhupada: Yes, He is the cause of all living entities. That is Vedic conception. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). He is the chief amongst the eternals, chief amongst the sentients, but unless He has got unlimited transcendental qualities, how He can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful? That is not perfection. A perfect conception of the Supreme One: He is unlimited, we are limited. That is sense. How the Supreme One, who is the cause of everything, He can be limited? I do not know what do they mean by "limit." He cannot be limited by anything. Even the impersonal Brahman, that Brahman, sarvam khalv idam brahma: everything is Brahman, unlimited. Why He should be limited? Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani: [Bg. 9.4] everything is emanation from Him and resting in Him. That is His impersonal conception. Everywhere He is there. And personal is localized, and..., but from the person, the impersonal effulgence come out. That we understand from the Bhagavad-gita: brahmanah aham pratistha. As the big sunshine comes from the localized sun globethe sun globe is situated in one place, but this, the rays of the sun is distributed all over the universesimilarly, impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is that by His transcendental rays, prabha, yasya prabha prabhavata [Bs. 5.40], illumination. Just like the fire has got heat and light. It expands. So the impersonal feature of the Lord expands unlimitedly, and the Personality, it appears that He is limited, but He is unlimited by His energy. That is the perfect conception. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. By His impersonal feature He is all-pervading. By His localized aspect He is living everywhere, omnipresent, within the heart of all living entities, within the atom even. And by His personal feature He is worshiped by the devotee. Wherever the devotee is there, He is present personally. Tatra drstami dhanatah yatra nayanti mad-bhaktah (?). That is His omnipresent, although He is in Goloka Vrndavana. So nobody can calculate how many miles away that planet is, still, when a devotee like Prahlada is in danger, He is immediately present there. That is the meaning of omnipresence. Not that because He is millions and trillions of miles away He cannot give protection to His devotee millions and trillions of miles away from His abode. That is the meaning of omnipresent.

Hayagriva: Yes. He also believed that God is present in all objects yet remains distinct and transcendental to all created things.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu avasthitah: [Bg. 9.4] "Everything is resting in Me, but I am not present there."

Hayagriva: As for the individual souls, some are unembodied and some are embodied. He believes that some are celestialthey are heavenlyand these souls do not suffer, and some, the ones on earth, suffer. In either case, they are all individuals.

Prabhupada: That's right. There are souls, innumerable souls. Anantaya kalpate. Nobody can count how many souls are there. So all the souls are as described above. They have got the same qualities of the One, in minute quantity, but some of them are fallen. Just like in the fire there are so many sparks, but one or two may fall down from the fire. Others remains in the fire. Those who are not falling down, they are called nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. They are never conditioned. And those who have fallen within this material world for sense gratification, they are baddha. They are called nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. And eternally means that nobody can estimate how long one conditioned soul within this material world is existing here, because the creation is going on perpetuallysometimes manifest, sometimes nonmanifest. But the conditioned soul without Krsna consciousness is continuing to exist in this material world. Before the creation he was there in dormant condition. Again with the manifestation he comes out. This is going on. They are conditioned. And for their deliverance that One, Supreme Personality, comes, descends, sends His incarnation, sends His devotee to call him back to home, back to Godhead. That is also going on. Those who are fortunate, they take to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead, and those who are unfortunate do not take advantage of the instruction personally given by God, and later on His devotees are engaged to preach, they do not take care; they remain conditioned within this material world. And material world is created and annihilated, and he suffers this annihilation while in this body, while in this material world. But the intelligent living entity, if he is fortunate, he takes to Krsna consciousness and again he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagriva: He believed that the soul is eternal and incorporeal in men, animals, and even in plants, and in this he differed from other philosophers of the time.

Prabhupada: What... In which way differs? Because he accepts...

Hayagriva: Accepted in..., the soul living in animals and also in plants.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the fact. He is right. That is Vedic conclusion. Sarva-yonisu, all different forms of life, there is soul, part and parcel of God. How some foolish person can think of animal has no soul? What is the reason? There is no very strong argument. The animals may be less intelligent. A child may be less intelligent than the father; that does not mean there is no soul. This gross and doggish mentality, animal mentality, is killing the human civilization. Now they have degraded so much that they think that the embryo has no soul. In this way man is being put into darker and darkest region of ignorance. Everyone has soul. That is real. We get it from Krsna: sarva-yonisu. In different forms of life the soul is there, undoubtedly. That is real conception of soul. Evolution means he is evolving from one lower grade of body to another, higher grade of body, and in this way by evolution he comes to the human form of life. And in this human form of life he can understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gita, that if he likes, he can surrender to the Supreme Lord and go back to home, back to Godhead, and if he does not, then he remains in this material world, undergoing the tribulations of the repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. Corporal body.

Hayagriva: Plotinus saw the individual souls returning to God or the One through three stages. The first stage is that of asceticism, detaching oneself from the material world. The second stage, one detaches oneself from the process of reasoning itself. That would be mental speculation. And in the third stage the intellect transcends itself into the realm of the unknown, the realm of the One, and he speaks of this as an ecstasy, an involvement, or a transcendence of the ego. So these are the three stages of God realization that he sets down.

Prabhupada: That means, what he called three stages, karmi, jnani, yogi. That karmis, they are trying to improve their condition by this material science and material advancement of education, and some of them are trying to go the heavenly planets by pious activities. These are karmis. And higher than the karmis are the jnanis. They are speculating on the Absolute Truth by their education and coming to the conclusion that God is impersonal; when we merge into that impersonal feature, that is our liberation. And the yogis, they are trying to get some mystic power by practicing mystic yoga systemwonderful power, asta-siddhi, eight kinds of perfection: to become lighter than the lightest, to become smaller than the smallest, to become bigger than the biggest. Whatever they like, they can get. They can subdue anyone, bring under his control with that yogic (indistinct). But real yoga means to see the Supreme within the core of the heart. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. In this way there are different processes. They are called karma, jnana and yoga. But they require endeavor to elevate, strenuous endeavor, all these practices. But the, the supreme process is simply to surrender unto the Supreme One, and He gives out intelligence how to be free from this material entanglement, and that is called bhakti-yoga. It is very pleasing to execute, and without any, much endeavor. Simply being fully surrendered to the Supreme Lord, he immediately becomes purified from all material contamination, and little practice of bhakti-yoga makes him completely fit for going back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagriva: Concerning evil, Plotinus feels that matter is evil in the sense that it imprisons the soul, but the visible cosmos...

Prabhupada: This is our conception. This Plotinus is all, all our, practically ninety percent our conception. This is the...

Hayagriva: But the visible cosmos is beautiful, and the evil does not arise from the creator.

Prabhupada: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material worldsometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going onsometimes elevated, sometimes degradedand in this way they will..., individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition. When he comes to understand that "This kind of degradation and elevation going on perpetually, this is my suffering," then at that time he becomes fortunate. Then he seeks after the Supreme One, Krsna, and by the grace of Krsna he gets bona fide spiritual master. So by the mercy of both the spiritual master and Krsna, he gets the chance of being engaged in devotional service, and little effort and sincerity makes him perfect, and he goes back to home back to Godhead.

Hayagriva: Although most of his philosophy is impersonalhis conception of God is mainly impersonalhe writes, "Let us flee then to the beloved fatherland. Here is sound council. But what is this flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the father." So he does some..., have some conception, it seems, of God as father.

Prabhupada: He, he is confused because he is also speculating. So these things will remain confused, whether the Absolute Truth is person, imperson. Generally, without spiritual advancement nobody can understand about the Absolute Truth, and so he, that doubt continues. But when there is question of love between the Absolute and the relative, there must be the personal conception, and actually He is person, Krsna. So by the mercy of Krsna, when he gets in touch with the devotee, his impersonal conception of the Absolute is removed, and then he worships the personal aspect of the Absolute Truth, Krsna, and devotee. Then his life is successful.

Hayagriva: Concerning the fall of the soul, Plotinus believes that the human soul never entirely leaves the spiritual realm.

Prabhupada: Because he is constitutionally spiritual being, he is not any product of this material world. He is part and parcel of the Supreme One. But he is embodied by the material elements, and the material elements requires change. It becomes old. Just like our shoes, our dress, it becomes old. I can have one shirt and coat, but as soon as I change the body, the shirt and coat is no more fitting the body, so I have to change. So material life means to change. It is called jagat. Jagat means changing. But we are eternal, the same spirit soul. That this material life is not very happy, because it will change. Even if we are in the very comfortable condition of life or in miserable condition of life, it will change to better or lower grade of life. That is going on. So in order to save ourselves from the repetition of changing body, if we want to remain in our original, eternal, spiritual form, we must take to Krsna consciousness, and then we are relieved from this rotten business of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.

Hayagriva: He says, "If the souls remain in the intelligible or spiritual realm with the Soul, or Supersoul, they are beyond harm and share in the soul's governance. They are like kings who live with the high King and govern with Him and like Him do not come down from the palace. But if they wish to be independent, if they are tired, you may say, of living with someone else..."

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, excuse me. The sannyasi...

Hayagriva: So when the individual soul decides to withdraw, he becomes fragmented, isolated and weak, when he decides to withdraw from the, what he calls the palace of the King.

Prabhupada: Withdraw, withdraw from the material world?

Hayagriva: When he decides to withdraw from the spiritual realm, from the governance of the high King.

Prabhupada: Spiritual wrong?

Hayagriva: Spiritual realm, the spiritual kingdom.

Prabhupada: Kingdom. Yes. That is his falldown. When he decides to give up the spiritual life, he falls down in the material life, and that is the beginning of his material tribulations. And so long he will maintain a tinge of material happiness, the nature's life, that he has to accept, a type of material body, and there are varieties. So in all condition the spirit soul remains the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but according to the different body he gets different circumstances. A dog is thinking, on account of the dog's body, that he is a dog. A man is thinking that he is a man on account of the human body. The same thingan American is thinking, because the body has been gotten from America, he is thinking "American." That similarly an Indian, a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, all these designations, due to the body. So when he understands that "I am not this body," this is spiritual education. That "I am different, I am part and parcel of God," then he becomes liberated, impersonally. And when he makes further advancement, and he comes to the platform of understanding the Supreme Truth as the Supreme Person, Krsna, and he engages himself in Krsna's service, that is his actual life. Krsna, in the spiritual world, in the Vaikuntha planets, in the Goloka Vrndavana planets, so they can be promoted to any one of themin the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrndavana planet. Then he is happy as associate of Krsna. He can enjoy life eternally.

Hayagriva: Plotinus conceives of the soul as having basically two parts: a lower part, directed toward the body, and a higher part, directed toward the spiritual.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is, he is prone to fall down because he is very minute quantity, he is small, so there is tendency of falldown. The same example: the small spark of the fire, because it is very small, sometimes it falls down from the fire. So we become, being very small, minute particle of God, we become entangled by this material, external energy. Just like the example: a less intelligent person, in ignorance, commits criminal activities and he goes to jail. He is not supposed to go to the jail, but on account of his little intelligence or ignorance, he commits something which is criminal. This criminality is done by less intelligent class of men. Similarly, persons who are coming into this material world, they are less intelligent. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare. They think that they will be able to enjoy life independently, without Krsna. This is less intelligence. Just like a very rich man's son, if he thinks that "If I live independently, without being dependent on father," that is his foolishness. How he can become happy independently, living aside from the father? The supreme father is all-opulent, full of everything, and I am minute only. So if I live under the care of the father, naturally I will live very comfortably, like rich man's son. But if I prefer that I shall live independently, that is my foolishness. So only the fools and rascals they try to remain independent of Krsna, and they suffer. That is the consequence. And those who are intelligent, even in the, this material life, by association of devotee and spiritual opportunities, when he comes to this understanding, that "I am son of Krsna. He claims, aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4], 'I am the father,' so I am the son of Krsna, and why I am rotting in this way? Let me go back to my father," that is back to home, back to Godheadthat is intelligence. But so long a living entity remains fools and rascal he suffers in this material world. And as soon as he is intelligent enough... That is described in the Caitanya-caritamrta, krsna ye bhaje seva (indistinct): anyone who is in Krsna consciousness, he is the first-class intelligent man. Without being first-class intelligent man, nobody can come to Krsna consciousness. So this training, Krsna consciousness, means those who are fortunate, they have come to accept Krsna consciousness. This movement is training them how to know perfectly well that he is..., he will be or he is always very, very happy in Krsna, not without Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness movement. When practically we see anyone who has given up this Krsna consciousness movement, they are not happy. I don't find anyone. That's fact. They are not happy. They are rotting in degradation. That is their misfortune, less intelligent.

Hayagriva: He believes that the cosmic order awards and punishes everyone according to merit, according to one's merit. So this is a form of belief in karma also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like we are discussing Ajamila's, this Ajamila is going to be punished. The Yamaraja is there, the officer is there. He has sent his men to arrest. So just like it is the father's duty if the son goes astray, in wrong way, the father is always affectionate. He tries to bring him back again home by, either by punishing or some way or some means. That is father's duty. So this is going on. Those who are in this material world, they are simply suffering on account of foolishness. So they are punished. This punishment means to correct him, to correct him to the proper position, and this is going on. So without being corrected, if one is intelligent enough, he surrenders to Krsna and revives his old constitutional position, and that is the platform of spiritual life of bliss and knowledge.

Hayagriva: He uses this following metaphor. He says, "We are like a chorus grouped about a conductor who allow their attention to be distracted by the audience. If, however, they"that is we, the individual souls"were to turn toward their conductor, they would sing as they should and would really be with him. We are always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that all discord passes. We dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the intelligence, the root of being, the cause of the good, the root of the soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mass."

Prabhupada: Yes. There is good sense, that God is individual and the soul is individual. As he has given the metaphor or analogy that the con..., parties of a concert party...

Devotee: Conductor and a chorus.

Prabhupada: ...they are singing in the tune, sometimes attention diverted by the audience, it becomes out of the tune. Similarly we, when we divert our attention to the illusory energy, then we fall down, and although we remain the same part and parcel of the Lord, but the influence of the material energy covers us, and we identify with the covering elements, and life after life bodies changing, and we are identify with the covering, and this is our miserable condition of material existence. And therefore first education is that "I am not this covering." That is spiritual education. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita instruction, that "You are not this body. Arjuna, you are not this body. Why you are taking this bodily concepts of life, your relatives, your family, so seriously? It is all foolishness. It is accidental. You are born in this family, and you have got so-called relatives. You are actually spirit. So now you are identifying with this bodily concept of life, you are member of the Kuru family. Then as soon as this change of body takes place, you will again enter into the dog's family or cat's family or demigod's family. Again you identify, 'I am dog,' 'I am cat,' 'I am demigod.' " So this is the, our ignorance. We have to stop this mentality of bodily concept of life, identify ourself as a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, and act according to His direction. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Krsna says, if we act, then gradually, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], we become immediately free from all upadhi, designation, and gradually develop our Krsna consciousness. That is the instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to spread this knowledge all over the world.

Hayagriva: Plotinus accounts for the fall of the soul in this way. He says, "How is it that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different and desiring to be independent."

Prabhupada: Yes, that I have already explained, that...

Hayagriva: "Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."

Prabhupada: That's a fact. More and more degraded. That I have already explained. He begins his life as Lord Brahma and goes down as the worm in the stool. That is his degradation. And again, by nature's way, by evolution, he comes to the human form of life. That is a chance to understand that how he has fallen. And if he takes to Krsna consciousness, then from this life he goes again back to Krsna. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If he fully becomes trained up in Krsna consciousness... And everyone has to give up this body, so a devotee will give up this body, but he is not going to accept any more material body. Immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mam eti: "He comes to Me." That is the advantage. They sometimes, foolish persons, say that "You are also going to die." Yes, you are going to die, I am also going to die, it's a fact, but a devotee's death means giving up this body and remain in his original, spiritual body. Sometimes it is said, jivo va maro va. A devotee, either he is living or he is dead, his business is the same. And those on the lowest platform of material life, just like the butcher, that he is advised, ma jiva ma maro, "Don't live; don't die." Because he is living very abominable life, daily cutting the throats of so many animals. Is that very nice life? So it is abominable, and as soon as he dies, he is going to suffer. So his position is, "Either you live or you die, his position is very, er, horrible." And a devotee, either he lives or dies, his business is the sameto serve Krsna. So jivo va maro va. He is not different from Krsna, so living or dead, it hasn't even no meaning for him. Therefore he is called liberated, jivan-muktah. Jivan-muktah means although he is in body, in this body, material body, he is liberated. Jivan mukta sa ucyate. Iha yasya harer dasye karmana manasa vacah. That is Rupa Goswami's definition. A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of Krsna, karmana, by action, by mind, karmana manasa, by words, he is not to be considered that possessing any more a material body. Jivan-muktah sa ucyate. He is already liberated, on the spiritual platform, although apparently he moves like material body. Jivan-muktah sa ucyate. And in Bhagavad-gita also it is confirmed, brahma-bhuyaya kalpate, sa gunan samatitya: he is not under the condition of the modes of material nature. He is already in the Brahman platform, brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

Hayagriva: That's the conclusion of Plotinus.

Prabhupada: That's all. (end)