Bhavan's Journal, Answers to a Questionnaire 1 – June 29, 1976, New Vrindavan

Man without religion means animal

Prabhupada: Beginning. From the beginning. You can add something.

Hari-sauri: Read out what it is and everything, as well.

Pusta Krsna: This is a questionnaire which was sent to us by one journal, a cultural and religious journal in Bombay. It's called Bhavan's Journal. And they are questioning different religious leaders, especially in India, trying to get the answers to some of these important questions which are perplexing especially the Indian public today. So there's a list of about twenty-one questions, and we can go through them one by one for Srila Prabhupada to answer. The first question, "Is the influence of religion over the masses on the wane?" Is the influence of religion over the masses decreasing?

Prabhupada: Yes, this is predicted in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Tataḥ anudinam. Bring that black book, Bhagavatam. Tatas canudinam dharmaḥ satyam [SB 12.2.1]. This is Kali-Yuga, the age of waning of these things-religiosity, truthfulness, memory, bodily strength, duration of life, mercifulness.

Hari-sauri: Pradyumna's just going to come with it.

Prabhupada: These are..., will be declining. These are the, I mean to say, human assets which makes a human being distinct from the animal. But these things will decline. There will be no mercifulness, there will be no truthfulness, the memory will be shortened, duration life shortened. Similarly, religion will vanish. So that means gradually they will come to the platform of animals. And especially when there is no religion, it is simply animals. That any common man can distinguish, that... A dog, he does not understand what is religion. He's also a living being. He's not interested what is going on here about Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam. He is not interested. That is the distinction between dog and man. The animal is not interested. So if the human being becoming disinterested in religious things, then they are animals. And how there can be happiness, peace, in the animal society? They want to keep people as animal, and they are making United Nation. How it is possible? "United Animals"? Is it possible? "Society for United Animals." [laughter] So these things are going on. So they have detected it is declining, that is good. Declining means they are going to be animals. In the logic it is said, "Man is rational animal." So rationality minus..., animal. Where is human being?

[aside:] You stand be... No, there is no place. That's all right.

Pusta Krsna: Second question, Srila Prabhupada? Question two?

Prabhupada: No, you have written all these things or not?

Pusta Krsna: It's being taped. I'll transcribe it later.

Prabhupada: So what is that? Find out tatas canudinam.

Pradyumna: Tatas canudinam satyaḥ, dharmaḥ satyam saucam ksama daya [SB 12.2.1].

Prabhupada: Hmm. Find that verse. You can quote that "This Kali-yuga, it is waning; therefore they are becoming animals." Man without religion means animal. That's all. This is the definition. In the human society, either you become Christian or you become Muhammadan or you become Hindu or you become Buddhist, it doesn't matter. There must be some system of religion. That is human society. And human society without religion-animal society. This is plain fact. So why people are unhappy now? Because there is no religion. They are neglecting religion. That one gentleman, he has written me that the Tolstoy said that "Unless one dynamite is put underneath a church, there cannot be any peace." That means they want... The Russians, the Communists, they are very strict against God consciousness, because they think so, that this religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. It might have been misused, religious system. That does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken. Because religion has not been properly executed by the so-called priest, it does not mean that religion should be rejected. My eye is giving some trouble on account of cataract, but that doesn't mean eye should be plucked out. The cataract should be removed.

So that is Krsna consciousness movement. They have no conception of God, and they are preaching religion. What is that religion? That will be misused. Religion means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means God's order. If there is no God, where is religion? This is going on. They have no conception of God. What is God they do not know, and professing some religion. How long it will go on artificially? It will deteriorate. That has become the present condition. They have no idea of God, and how they will know what is the order of God? And religion means order of God. Just like law means order of the state. Law means order of the state. So if there is no state, where is the order? You can manufacture your own order. That is going on. There is no conception of God. We have got clear conception of God. Here is God, Krsna. And He's giving orders. We accept it. And it is clear religion. And if there is no God, no conception of God, no order of God, then where is religion? If there if no government, then where is law? Outlaw. Everyone is outlaw. That is going on. Ask any religious system what is the conception of God. Can anyone tell clearly? Nobody can say. We shall immediately say, venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarahgam [Bs 5.30].

Ahgani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti..., immediately description, "Here is God." Then there is religion. And if there is no God, where is religion? Bogus. Therefore declining. They have no conception of God, and therefore there is no understanding of religion. Therefore it is declining.

So this is the cause of declining. And because it is declining, human being becoming more animals. Animal means there will be no memory. A dog's come-here is some eatables; he comes-I say, "Hut!" he goes away. Again he comes. No memory. So when this memory is reducing, that means human quality is reduced. So in the Kali-yuga these eight things will reduce. That means they are becoming like cats and dogs. This is the answer to the first question.

Pusta Krsna: Question number two?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Pusta Krsna: "The traditional charge against Hinduism is that it is fatalistic, that it inhibits progress by making people slaves to the belief in the inevitability of what is to happen. How far is this charge true?"

Prabhupada: The charge is false. Those who have charged like that, they do not know what is Hinduism. There is no such thing as Hinduism, but there is mention of sanatana-dharma, varnasrama-dharma. That we can find in the scriptures. I've already given note.

Pusta Krsna: Yes, I have that.

Prabhupada: So what is his..., what is the charge?

Pusta Krsna: He says that people are accusing that Hinduism, it inhibits the progress of mankind.

Prabhupada: What is that progress? Dog's jumping is progress? [laughter] Is that progress? A dog is running here and there, here and there, and you are running on the four wheels. Is that progress? That is not Vedic system. The Vedic system is that human being has got a certain amount of energy. Better energy than the animals. Better consciousness. That should be utilized for spiritual advancement. So whole Vedic system is meant for spiritual advancement. The energy is employed in another direction, not the energy is employed to compete with the dog. Therefore sometimes those who have no idea of religion, they see that the... "Hindus" is not the proper term. The Indian saintly persons, they are not busy like the dogs. Because they think the dog race is life. But actual life is spiritual progress. Therefore sastra says,

The human being should exert the energy for that thing which he did not get in many, many lives. Many, many lives he had been in the form of dogs or demigods or cats, birds, beasts-many. There are 8,400... So this transmigration is going on, but in everywhere the business is sense gratification. The dog is busy for sense gratification: "Where is food? Where is shelter? Where is woman or man? And where is defense?" And the man is also doing the same business in different forms. So this is going on, life after life. Even in small insect, this is also trying for the same thing. Same struggle, ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam [Hitopadesa 25].

Bird, beast, animal, fish-everywhere the same struggle: Where is food? Where is sex? Where is shelter? And how to defend? So sastra says these things we have done in many, many lives past, and if we don't get out of this struggle for existence we'll have to do it again in many, many lives. So these things should be stopped. So Prahlada Maharaja says therefore,

He's advising that "My dear friends, that pleasure, material pleasure, on account of this material body, particular type of body..." A dog, it has got a body, and I have got a body. So my sex pleasure and dog's sex pleasure, there is no difference; the pleasure derived out of sex pleasure is the same. But a dog is not afraid of having sex pleasure on the street before everyone; we hide it, that's all, in a nice apartment. But the business is the same. There is no difference. But they are taking this sex pleasure in a nice apartment and very decorated, man and woman, and electric light and so on, so on, this pleasure is advanced. But that is not advanced. And they are making dog's race for this advancement. Superficial. The Prahlada Maharaja says that this is a question of different types of pleasure on account of different types of body, but the pleasure is the same. But according to the different types of body, the pleasure is already fixed up. That is called destiny. A pig has got a certain type of body, and his eatable is the stool. It is already fixed up. You cannot change it, that "Let the pig eat halava." It is not possible. Because he has got a particular type of body, he must eat that. Can anyone, any scientist, can improve the standard of living of a pig? Is it possible?

Devotees: [laughing] No.

Prabhupada: Therefore Prahlada Maharaja says it is already fixed up. Sukham aindriyakam daitya deha-yogena dehinam. This pleasure is the same, but according to the body... The uncivilized man in the jungle, they are having the same thing. And they are taking civilization that "Instead of living in that hut made of leaves, we are living in skyscraper building. This is advancement." But Vedic civilization says, "No. This is not advancement. The advancement is self-realization, how much you have realized yourself." Not that from the hutment you have come to skyscraper building, therefore it is advancement. Sometimes they misunderstand. In a high court a judge is sitting soberly, doing nothing, and he is getting the highest salary. And another man in the same court, he's working day and hard rubber-stamping, and he is getting not even one tenth of the salary. He's thinking, "I am so busy and working so hard. I am not getting any good salary. And this man is sitting only on the bench, and he's getting so fat salary." So therefore this is question like that. The Vedic civilization is for self-realization. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. Kovido means "very learned." He'll simply try for that thing which was not received, which was not achieved in other life. That means self-realization. Just like we are sometimes charged "escaping." What is the charge?

Pradyumna: We are escaping from reality.

Prabhupada: Reality. [devotees laugh] But their reality is dog's race, and our reality is to advance in self-realization, Krsna consciousness. There is difference. Therefore karmis have been described as mūḍha, asses. Asses. And asses, why the example is given to the asses? Because the ass works very hard. It loads on the back tons of cloth of the washerman, and the washerman in return gives him little morsel of grass, and he stands at the door of the washerman, eats the grass, again loading. But he has no sense that "If I go out of these clutches of washerman I can get grass anywhere. Why I am loading so much?" The karmis are like that. They're busy in the office, very busy. If you want to see him, "I am very busy now." [laughter] So what is your result of busy? "Now, I take two pieces of toast and one cup of tea. That's all." [laughter] And for this purpose you are so busy? He does not know why he's busy. Because in the books he's finding, "Now, the balance was one thousand million dollars, now it has become two thousand," that his satisfaction. But he will eat two pieces of bread and one cup of tea when it was one million dollars, when it was two million dollars. But still he'll work hard. This is called karmi. Asses. Work like asses, without any aim of life. This is the asses. Mūḍha.

But Vedic civilization is different. The accusation is not correct. They are not lazy. They are busy for higher subject matter. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlada Maharaja says, "Beginning from the childhood," kaumaram acaret prajno [SB 7.6.1]. Not lose a second time. That is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varnasrama system. Varnasramacaravata purusena paraḥ puman visnur aradhyate [Cc Madhya 8.58]: how to realize Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varnasrama. In another place it is said, tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer [SB 1.5.17].

The varnasrama means there is division: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. But the ultimate goal is visnur aradhyate: the Supreme Lord should be worshiped. That is the idea. So if Visnu aradhana is available immediately, then you can give up all other occupational duty as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya, as a sūdra, as a brahmacari, everything. Take to, immediately, to Krsna consciousness. This is so important.

But that they do not know. Therefore there is no religion. A simply dog's race. The dog is running on four legs and you are running on four wheels. That's all. And they think the four-wheel race is advancement of civilization. But the Vedic civilization is different. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Then one can say that "Then we shall do nothing?" Yes, practically it is said, "Do nothing." Whatever is obtainable by you or destiny, you'll get it wherever you are. Take to Krsna consciousness. You'll get it. "How I..., shall I get it?" Now, kalena sarvatra gabhira-ramhasa: by the arrangement of eternal time, everything is available. The example is given that you do not want something distressful as it comes upon you, similarly, even if you do not want, the happiness for which you are destined, it will come. Now, Prahlada Maharaja says, na tat-prayasaḥ kartavyam. You should not waste your energy for material happiness, because you cannot get material happiness more than what you are destined to have. That is not possible. "How shall I believe...?" Because you get something distressful condition although you do not want. Who wants? In our country Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his own countrymen. Who did want it? Or why did it come? He was great man, he was protected by so many, and... Still, he was to be killed. Destiny. He was killed. Who can protect you? So if the distressed condition come compulsory upon me, the other condition, the opposite number, also will come. Why shall I waste my time for this rectification? Let me utilize my energy for Krsna consciousness. That is intelligence. You cannot check your destiny. Their question is...

Pusta Krsna: That the charge is that Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore people are not making progress because they simply accept...

Prabhupada: No, no. They are misguided. First of all, the Hinduism is also misguiding. There is no such thing as Hinduism. It is sanatana-dharma and varnasrama-dharma. I do not know how this word... Most probably it was given by the Muhammadans, "Hindus." But there is no such thing. In Bhagavad-gita I don't find any word as "Hindu." Is there any word? Throughout the whole? There is no such thing.

Pusta Krsna: There's a second part to this question also, Srila Prabhupada. They ask: If it's false that actually Hinduism is not fatalistic, or sanatana-dharma is not fatalistic...

Prabhupada: No, no. Fatalistic in this sense, that the destiny cannot be changed. Just like I have given already the example, that the Mahatma Gandhi, nobody expected that he would be killed by his own countryman. Why it happened? But this means destiny cannot change. This is a prominent example, that Mahatma Gandhi, he was in a big meeting. Who expected that Mahatma Gandhi could be killed, and by his own countryman? But it was done. That is destiny. You cannot check it. So our point is that... The whole Vedic civilization is that destiny, a certain amount of happiness in this material world... Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of so-called happiness and certain amount of so-called distress, there must be always. So as you cannot check your distressed condition of life, similarly you cannot check your happy condition of life. It will come automatically. So don't waste your time for these things. You better utilize your energy for advancing in Krsna consciousness. So those who are not Krsna conscious, they think that "These people are wasting time."

Pusta Krsna: So then, is it true then that people who have this conception, they would not try for progress?

Prabhupada: No, no. Progress... The thing is that if you try progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your destiny, so why should you try for that? Better... That is the... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Therefore whatever energy you have got, you utilize it for understanding Krsna consciousness. Make it clear. Just like our Society. We are..., our main business is how to make advancement in Krsna consciousness. We are not very enthusiastic to open big, big factories and big, big money-earning machine. No. We are not interested. We'll be satisfied with the amount of happiness or distress, whatever we are destined. Let us utilize our energy for Krsna consciousness. This is the point. So the Vedic civilization is meant for realization of God, visnur aradhyate. So they try for that. And now, at the present moment... Actually, the varnasrama-dharmi, they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India still, thousands of men taking bath in the Ganges. In the Kumbha-mela... You have been in Kumbha-mela?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupada: At the Kumbha-mela millions of people are coming to take bathing in the Ganges because they are interested how to become liberated. They're not lazy. They're going thousands miles, two thousand miles away, to take bathing in the Prayaga [Allahabad]. So they are not lazy. But they are not busy in the dog's race. Ya nisa sarva-bhūtanam tasyam jagarti samyami [Bg 2.69]. Samyami. He keeps night, he does not sleep. Others are sleeping. So similarly, the dogs and asses, they think that "They are not working." And they are working. The different platforms. So the Vedic civilization which is practiced in India... Now it is distorted, but actually, they are not lazy; they are very, very busy. Not only very, very busy, but from..., they are trying to become self-realized from the very beginning of life. Kaumaram...

Devotee: Kaumaram acaret prajna?

Prabhupada: Prajno dharmam bhagavatan iha. That is recommended. They are not lazy. They are so busy that want to begin the business from the very childhood. So it is a wrong conception that they are lazy.

Pusta Krsna: So then if this is false, that actually they're not...

Prabhupada: They do not know what is the aim of life. They think that "They are not racing like dog; therefore they are lazy." But they are busy, very busy, from the childhood. But they have no eyes to see what is business means.

Pusta Krsna: The second point is, in connection with this question, that there's a certain class of people in India-he describes them as being advanced, well-meaning and highly educated people in India today-that they're accusing Hinduism of inhibiting progress, and he wants to know why is this.

Prabhupada: That is explained. They do not know what is progress. The Vedic civilization is not interested in this so-called false progress. Just like from hut to skyscraper, they think this is progress. But the Vedic civilization thinks how much he is advanced in self-realization, either he is in cottage or in skyscraper. But if he wastes his time to turn the huts into skyscraper, then the whole life is finished. And next time he is going to be a dog. He does not know. That's all.

Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada? They want to know how can this be counteracted, this idea?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: Don't get...

Hari-sauri: [whispering] This is going to be transcribed.

Prabhupada: Make everything clear.

Pusta Krsna: Yes, that is very clear. Would you like to hear the next question, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, it is clear or no?

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: So long it is not clear, you can go on asking. One question after one question.

Pusta Krsna: The point was made by you that they don't understand what actual progress is.

Prabhupada: Actually, destiny cannot be checked. That I have already given. Even Mahatma Gandhi could not. The destiny you cannot check.

Pusta Krsna: But then the question may be raised if destiny cannot be checked, then why not, when a child is born, simply let him like an animal run around, and whatever happens to him...

Prabhupada: No. That is the advantage of... You can train him spiritually. That is possible. Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. For that purpose you engage your energy. That is open. Ahaituky apratihata [SB 1.2.6]. The devotional service, Krsna consciousness, apratihata, it cannot be checked. Material destiny can be checked..., it cannot be checked. Similarly, your advancement in spiritual life cannot be checked if you endeavor for it. But your advancement of so-called material happiness, that is already destined. You cannot check it. Try to understand this.

Pusta Krsna: So then in terms of advancing in spiritual life, actually we can't say that the sanatana-dharma is fatalistic. That there is actually endeavor towards progress.

Prabhupada: Fatalistic... I have given this example also: Just like a man is condemned by the law court to be hanged, nobody can check it. Nobody can check. Even the same judge who has given this verdict, he cannot check it. But if he begs for the mercy of the king, he can check it. He can go all above the law. Therefore, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs 5.54].

In the Brahma-samhita it is said that destiny can be changed by Krsna for His devotees. Otherwise it is not possible. If one is condemned to death, Krsna can check it. Otherwise, it is falsehood when Krsna... Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66]: "I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful activities." Suppose you are to be killed by somebody on account of your sinful activity. Nobody can check it ordinarily, but Krsna can check it. Otherwise Krsna's telling false, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: "I shall give you protection." So therefore our business should be only to surrender to Krsna. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible. That is not possible.

Pusta Krsna: Question number three?

Prabhupada: Hmm? No, first of all clear. Why you are so, mailforce? [laughter]

Pusta Krsna: It may take several issues to...

Prabhupada: Try to understand what is there? The first thing is that your destiny cannot be changed. That's a fact. But in spite of your destiny, if you try for Krsna consciousness... Otherwise, why Prahlada Maharaja is asking his friends, kaumara acaret? If the destiny cannot be changed, then why he's asking? It is not the... Destiny means material business. That you cannot check. But it can also be checked when you are in spiritual life.

Pusta Krsna: What is the meaning of apratihata? You said that spiritual development cannot be checked.

Prabhupada: Pratihata means suppose you are destined to suffer. So apratihata means in spite of your so-called suffering, the suffering will be reduced, or there will be no suffering. But in spite of suffering, you can make progress in spiritual life. Just like Prahlada Maharaja himself, his father was putting him in so many suffering conditions, but it was not impeded. He was making progress. He was making progress. He didn't care for father's putting him into so many suffering. That is called apratihata. If you want to execute Krsna consciousness, your material condition of life cannot check it. That is the progress. But so far material condition, that cannot be checked. You have to suffer. But in case of devotee that suffering also can be stopped. Otherwise Krsna's version is false: aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami. Suffering is there on account of my sinful activities, but Krsna says, aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucaḥ. Make it clear. Ordinarily destiny cannot be checked. Therefore instead of wasting your time for change your economic condition or material destiny, you employ this energy for Krsna consciousness. That cannot be checked. Your so-called... So many men, we can see, they are working so hard, does it mean that everyone has become a Ford, a Rockefeller? Why? Everyone is trying his best. Mr. Ford was to become rich man; his destiny was there, he became rich man. But does it mean that other man who has worked so hard like Ford, he has become like a Ford? No. This is practical. You cannot change your destiny simply by working hard like ass and dogs. No. But you can utilize that energy for improving your Krsna consciousness. [break]

That's a fact. He was destined to be killed by his countryman, he has done? Such a big man, such vigilance, and so many people were guarding him, and still he was killed in the meeting. Why Mahatma Gandhi? Your president, ex, Kennedy. Was less protection was taken? No, every was there, everything was there, but still he was killed. Who can stop this destiny? So destiny cannot be checked. Therefore fatalists, they know, "For my material happiness or distress, it cannot be checked. It will happen. So why shall I waste my energy for this purpose? Let me utilize this energy for advancing in Krsna consciousness." Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labyhate yad bhramatam [SB 1.5.18]. That is intelligence.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, if destiny cannot be changed, what does Krsna mean when He says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice."

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: When Krsna says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice," what does he mean if destiny cannot be changed like that? How one can be more happy by performing...

Prabhupada: Do you know what is meant by sacrifice?

Devotee: Sacrifice to Krsna, to Visnu.

Prabhupada: Yes. That means to please Krsna. If Krsna is pleased He can change destiny. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhajam [Bs 5.54]. Sacrifice means to please Krsna. Yajna. Yajna means to please Krsna. The whole, our Krsna consciousness movement, means to please Krsna. That is the whole program. In all other business there is no question of pleasing Krsna. When they declare war, one nation to another, there is no question of pleasing Krsna. They're pleasing their whims. The two big, big wars began, it was not for pleasing Krsna. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification is being hampered by the Britishers, "Declare war." That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are satisfying their sense gratification; we cannot do. All right, fight." So there was no question of pleasing Krsna. Hmm. Then?

Pusta Krsna: Question number three: "It is said that the greatest strength of Hinduism is its catholicity, or breadth of outlook, broadness of vision, but that this is also the greatest weakness in that there is very little common prescribed religious observances which are obligatory for all, as in other religions. Is it necessary and possible to outline certain basic minimum observances for all Hindus?"

Prabhupada: So far Vedic religion is concerned, it is not for the Hindus. That is to be understood. The sanatana-dharma. It is for all living entities, all human beings. It is called sanatana-dharma. That I have already explained. The living entity is sanatana, God is sanatana, and there is sanatana-dhama. Paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanaḥ [Bg 8.20]. And where Krsna is described sanatana in the Eleventh Chapter. Do you remember? He is described as sanatana. Sanatanam. So actually, the Vedic system is called sanatana-dharma. Not Hindu dharma. This is a wrong conception. The sanatana-dharma is meant for all living entities, not the so-called Hindus, Muslim, Christian. For everyone. That is sanatana-dharma. These are later misconceptions, Hinduism and this "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Actually, it is called sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. That is meant for everyone. But because it was being followed regularly in India, and Indians were called by the Muslims on the other side of the river Sind, or Sindu, and they pronounce Sind as Hind, therefore they called India as Hindustan, means on the other side of Sindu, or Hindu River. Otherwise, it has no Vedic reference. So this Hindu dharma has no Vedic reference. The real Vedic dharma is sanatana-dharma, varnasrama-dharma. First of all he has to understand this. Now that sanatana-dharma, or Vedic dharma, being distorted, not being obeyed, not being carried properly, it has come to the understanding of "Hinduism." That is a fake understanding. That is not real understanding. We have to study sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. Then we'll understand what is Vedic religion.

Pusta Krsna: So is there anything obligatory or prescribed for all people who follow this religion, that a minimum observance that they must do?

Prabhupada: Yes, sanatana... The sanatana... Every living entity is eternal, sanatana. God is eternal, and we can live with God in a place which is called sanatana-dhama. So this reciprocation is called sanatana-dharma. So Vedic religion means this sanatana-dharma, not Hindu dharma or Muslim dharma or this dharma. Read it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: Translation?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: "You are the supreme primal objective. You are the best in all the universes. You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest. You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: This is wanted. Krsna is eternal, we are eternal, and the place we live, exchanging our feelings, that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation, that is called sanatana-dharma. That is meant for everyone.

Pusta Krsna: So what daily prescribed religious observances would one who is aspiring for this sanatana-dharma, what would they do? What kind of daily prescribed religious observance? Because the complaint is that within this Hinduism, or let's say sanatana-dharma, there is such a breadth of..., there is so much variegatedness in different types...

Prabhupada: So why do you go to variegatedness? Why don't you take the real purpose of religion from Krsna? Krsna says, "This is real dharma: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam..." [Bg 18.66] Why don't you take that? Why are you going to variegated things or varieties under the name of so-called Hinduism? Why do you go there? Why don't you take the advice of the sanatana, Krsna? You don't take what is sanatana-dharma, what sanatana God says, and you say, "How we can come to the right point, avoiding so many varieties?" Why you go to the varieties? Take to this one consciousness, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam. Why don't you do that?

Pusta Krsna: How can people practically do this on a daily basis?

Prabhupada: How we are doing? Is it not practical? They'll manufacture their own way of religion. And that is... That is not practical. You take this practical system. What is this? Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... Where is impracticality? You simply think of Krsna, become His devotee, worship Krsna. Or just offer a little obeisances to Krsna. Where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Krsna says, "This is the duty. If you do this, you come to Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... [Bg 18.65], mam evaisyasi asamsaya: "Without any doubt you'll come to Me." [Bg 18.68] Why don't you do that? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]. Why you remain Hindu? Why you remain Muslim? Why you remain Christian? Give up all this nonsense. Just surrender to Krsna: "I am devotee of Krsna, servant of Krsna." Take this. Then everything will be immediately done. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya. So why you want to remain Hindu, and try to adjust things? Dharma means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19].

What God says, that is dharma. Now, God says that "You give up all this. You just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma. Why you want to remain a Hindu? And who is a Hindu who does not accept the authority of Krsna? Who is a Hindu? If any Hindu says, even up till now, that "I don't care for Krsna and Bhagavad-gita," he will be immediately rejected as a madman. Why don't you take Krsna's instruction? Why do you go outside? Therefore your trouble is there. You do not know what is religion, you do not know what is Hinduism, what is sanatana-dharma. You do not know anything. And actually, practically, you see that in our Krsna consciousness movement there are so-called Hindus, so-called Muslims. But they do not care for Muslim or Hindu or Christian. They are taking care of Krsna, that's all. If you take care of false religious system, then you suffer. You take real religious system, then you'll be happy.

Pusta Krsna: Sometimes it's also seen, say, that Muslims and Hindus, they will be converted to Christianity, and the same argument can be given. So what would be the difference for the..., in this case, that one is identifying himself as Christian or one is identifying himself as devotee of Krsna?

Prabhupada: First of all, you have to understand what is religion. The religion is God's law. You have to understand. Religion does not mean your manufactured, concocted ideas. What God says, that is religion. So here Krsna is God. He is saying. Therefore this is religion. Hmm? Is that clear? Make it clear. So long one point is not clear, don't go to the next point.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. Especially he is trying to inquire that it appears that India, for example, today...

Prabhupada: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. That is... Krsna says, God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg 4.13].

So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a..., happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says maya srstam: "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharmam means the order given by the God. The God says that catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13]: "For the proper management of the human society, there should be these four divisions, social divisions." So you have to take it.

Pusta Krsna: This would be the prescription for all people?

Prabhupada: Everyone, for all people. There must be on the head the intelligent class of men who will give advice. Then next class, the... That is all given in the Bhagavad-gita-brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. But when you become Krsna conscious, you can give up all these regulative principles directly. Therefore Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]. A brahmana-dharma, ksatriya-dharma, or this dharma, that dharma, Hindu dharma, Mussulman dharma. If you have everything, simply... Because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Krsna. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."

Devotee: So many other people, they concoct their own system, and they say, "This is the way to go to God."

Prabhupada: Then let them suffer. What can be done? What can be done? If you don't take the laws of the state, you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. If the state says, "Keep to the right," and if you make your own law, "No, keep to the left," then you'll suffer. It's a fact.

Devotee: But so many innocent people are also...

Prabhupada: So innocent suffers. Intelligent never suffers. Only the rascals, innocent, they suffer. Innocent means rascal also. He does not know what is..., what to do. The rascal is also innocent. A child is innocent, but he's a rascal. It does not mean because he's innocent, he's not rascal. Rascal means he's innocent also. The child does not know that "If I touch fire, it will burn." Therefore he's a rascal. But because he is child, innocent, he'll not be excused. These rascal and innocent on the same category. Innocence of law is not..., no excuse. If you go to the court, if you say, "Sir, I did not know there is law like this," that does not mean... You must suffer. Why Krsna comes? He gives advice that "You do this. Don't remain innocent and rascal. Then you'll be happy." Why should you stick to the rascaldom? He's personally advising. He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Why you are sticking to Hinduism and Muslimism and Christianism? Why? That is rascaldom. You take to His advice and you'll be happy. Hmm.

Devotee: But these religions are just material. These Hindu, Christian, Muslim, they're following these things because that is simply their destiny? They don't know how to please God, so that's simply part of their happiness and distress?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, now Krsna is asking, "You give up this rascaldom." You do it. Don't go to the history. He says, "You give up," you give up. That's all. Then you are perfect. That is Krsna consciousness. Why you are going to the history? History may be something else, but now He says directly, "Give up," you give up. That's all. Finish this business. Hmm. That is... That point is clear now?

Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Then go on.

Pusta Krsna: Question number four: "Even a well-read, widely traveled, and enlightened editor like the late Sri Frank Moraes..." I think that's how you... M-o-r-a-e-s. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Who is he?

Pusta Krsna: I don't know. He's late, though.

Dhrstadyumna: He has died, Srila Prabhupada.

Pusta Krsna: He's dead. He was enlightened. "...equated Hindu ethos with castism." He equated that Hindu culture, or Hindu ethos, and castism is one and the same. "Will the fundamental values of Hinduism be in any way affected by the eradication of castism, towards which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?"

Prabhupada: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13]. But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brahmana is the son of a brahmana. That is caste system. But Krsna does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India, that is a false notion of catur-varnyam. Real catur-varnyam means guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described: satya samo damo titiksva arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam. [Bg 18.42] So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system, which is contaminated by false conception, or birthright conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished, and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brahmana or to become ksatriya. Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Krsna, that should be taken. Otherwise, you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain.

Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful"? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Krsna never said that. A father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlada. Or a son... Not that the..., one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility. But it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first-class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brahmana. That is wanted. Why do you take that "Here is a son of truthful man; therefore he is brahmana"? That is misconception. You have to pick up the truthful men all over the world and classify them as brahmana. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles-no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating-you are brahmana. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right. You cannot abolish the truthful class of men. There are... You'll find truthful men everywhere. So you have to pick up.

So Krsna says that catur-varnyam maya, guna-karma... You pick up the quality of men and put them in the brahminical class, and then next, ksatriya class, then vaisya class, then sūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful-more or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system.

Pusta Krsna: You're saying, rather, it's a classification according to the quality of a man's...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. That must be there.

Pusta Krsna: And what will be the benefit of classifying men according to their qualities?

Prabhupada: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualification, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a sūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting twenty-five dollars or fifty dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all sūdras, fourth-class men. Then there will be society chaos.

Pusta Krsna: Another part of this question, same question: "If the harijanas, who constitute a sizable population amongst the Hindus, are made to feel that their very religion..."

Prabhupada: These are all artificial. The harijana word was used by Gandhi unnecessarily for a class of men who are not fit for the position. Harijana means "the men of Hari." Just like Narada. Narada is called harijana. Great devotee is called harijana, "the persons related with Hari." But if you select some bhahgis and camaras and keep them as he is and rubberstamp it, "Here is a harijana," what will be the effect? There is no harm to pick up a low-class man and to elevate him to the position of harijana. There is no impediment. You can do. But if you keep him a low-class man and if you stamp him harijana, then what will be the benefit? Just like we are initiating selected men: "Are you ready to follow these rules and regulation?" When he says, then "Come on. Become harijana." Not that "I'll keep myself in that same abominable condition of life and I shall become harijana." So this "harijana" word has come from Gandhi. He did not try to make him real harijana. He simply rubberstamped him. So what is the value of this harijana?

Pusta Krsna: There's another section to this question. "In other words, how can all sections of Hindus be made to take an equal interest and have the same sense of belonging to the Hindu religion?"

Prabhupada: Why you sticking to the Hindu religion? Any Hindu will accept Bhagavad-gita and Krsna. So why not ask them to take Krsna? Why so-called Hinduism? Who is a Hindu who will deny the authority of Krsna? Is he a Hindu? Every Hindu observes Janmastami, the birthday of Krsna. So why do they not take Krsna's advice and remain practically Hindu? They will not take advice of Krsna, and they, how they can claim to be Hindu?

Pusta Krsna: So can all people have an equal interest in religion despite their different classifications?

Prabhupada: Yes. That I have already explained, that any human civilized man, he has got some religion. So religion, basic principle of religion, is with reference to God. So here is God. What God says, if you take that system, then it will be perfect, not only for the Hindus-for Christian, for Muhammadan, for everyone. And that is being practically done in our Krsna consciousness movement. We have got devotees from all groups of human society, and they are taking to it. It is practical. There is no difficulty. So Hindus, Muslim, Christian, everyone take to this Krsna religion, Krsnite. Krsnian. [laughter] Not Christian, but Krsnian. The word christo is also a Greek word. From this christo the "Christ" has come. So instead of c-h-r-i, k-r-i, the same thing. Christian or Krsnian, or Christian. Krishta is also another broken, I mean, spelling of Krsna. In India, if one's name is Krsna, we say Krishta. My younger brother, his name was Krsna. So we were calling him Krishta. So Krishta, Christian. So actually, if we take the root meaning, Christian means Krishnian or Krishtian. So that is a controversial point, but everyone can take to Krsna. Then everything will be settled up. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg 18.66] Make everything clear.

Pusta Krsna: Would you like to go on, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, you can go.

Pusta Krsna: Next question: "Swami Vivekananda..."

Prabhupada: Hmm. [laughter]

Pusta Krsna: "He had given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for the harijanas to command respect amongst all sections of..."

Prabhupada: Where Vivekananda was there when harijana word was manufactured by Gandhi? At that time Vivekananda was not there. So why he's pulling Vivekananda?

Pusta Krsna: Vivekananda has already died when this harijana name...

Prabhupada: Long, long ago. [laughter]

Hari-sauri: He's just using the word "harijana" in place of sūdra, or what was formerly "untouchables."

Prabhupada: He can use, but this "harijana" word was manufactured by Gandhi. Vivekananda died some time, 1900... I do not exactly remember. When Gandhi's movement was not started. Gandhi's movement was started in 1917. And long ago Vivekananda expired.

Pusta Krsna: Anyway, his question is, "Swami Vivekananda has given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for harijanas to command respect among all sections of people is to learn Sanskrit, the study of which is being neglected even by brahmanas today. What incentives can be given to harijanas to learn Sanskrit, the repository of Indian culture and religion?"

Prabhupada: That is another misgiving. They will never be able to learn Sanskrit, and neither it is possible that by learning Sanskrit they will be elevated. There are many Sanskrit scholars. So how they are elevated? They are rotting. It is not a good suggestion, this. If the harijana actually becomes harijana, then it will benefit. That training we can give. This Krsna consciousness movement is that we can make a harijana, a so-called, I mean to say, camaras, bhahgis... Now they understand harijana means he must be a camara or bhangi. But that is not the actual... Harijana means devotee, "the man of Hari." So in spite of their illiteracy in Sanskrit language, we can make him harijana, actually. So why do you take the trouble of learning Sanskrit? Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ papa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32]. Papa-yoni means low-grade birth. So anyone, that includes the camaras, bhahgis, they can be purified if they take to the shelter of Krsna. Because Krsna says, aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami. The best thing is to induce them to come to Krsna. Then they will be purified. And the simple method is recommended by Krsna Himself and Caitanya Mahaprabhu, His incarnation: this kirtana. Engage them in sahkirtana movement, which is being pushed by this Krsna consciousness movement, and they will be purified. They don't require to learn Sanskrit even. As it is. Let them chant Hare Krsna and they will be purified. And if you want to teach them Sanskrit, it will take three thousand years. [laughter] That is impossible.

Pusta Krsna: It is a fact, though, that the repository of Indian culture and religion is Sanskrit. So are you saying then that the harijanas, or these class of people...

Prabhupada: Yes, it is Sanskrit, but the Vedic mantras are received not by learning Sanskrit, but by hearing from the authorized person. Therefore it is called sruti. It is in Sanskrit because there was no other language. Sanskrit was the only language. So now they're being translated into English. So it doesn't matter whether it is in Sanskrit or English, one has to learn it by hearing from the proper person. That is wanted. It is... The Vedic mantras are called sruti, not sanskriti. [laughter]. It is called sruti. Sruti means the first business is hearing. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12].

What is the purpose of going to guru? Means to..., guru is the authorized person from hear..., from him hear. So it doesn't require that one has to learn Sanskrit. We have got so many disciples. It is not that they first of all learned Sanskrit. They heard. It may be in Sanskrit language or in English language. It doesn't matter. Let him hear the real fact. That is wanted. So although the Vedic mantras are in Sanskrit, the process to understand is to hear. To hear, it may be any language, to hear and understand; then he becomes perfect. It is not the Sanskrit language. It is the hearing which is important.

Pusta Krsna: So will this bring respect...?

Prabhupada: Sravanam kirtanam visnu. [SB 7.5.23] Hear and chant about Visnu. That is wanted. Not krn pratyaya, di-pratyaya, du-pratyaya. No. That is not wanted. Na hi na hi raksati du-krn-karane ["You intellectual fools, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda. Your grammatical knowledge and word jugglery will not save you at the time of death."-Sahkaracarya]. This will not save you. If you have become a Sanskrit scholar, du-pratyaya, di-pratyaya, da-pratyaya, that will not save you. Na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha mate. So this, they are thinking by learning Sanskrit they will become perfect. In the Bhagavad-gita I don't find that "You learn Sanskrit, then you become perfect." "You surrender unto Me, then you become perfect." That is wanted. If you learn Sanskrit, there is no harm, but it is not the only condition, that "You have to learn Sanskrit, then you will be able." Who knows in our camp Sanskrit? Who knows Sanskrit? How many?

Pusta Krsna: Pradyumna.

Prabhupada: He may know little. [laughter] Sanskrit language..., that is...

Pusta Krsna: His question here, Srila Prabhupada, especially is that the harijanas are very downtrodden, and...

Prabhupada: Downtrodden, you keep them downtrodden. You manufacture wine and let them drink, and he will be uplifted. One side, [chuckles] you are manufacturing wine and advertising, "Come on, take here," and you remain..., become harijana. How it is possible? You must stop all this nonsense-the slaughterhouse, the liquor shop, or the breweries, or the prostitute quarter. You stop this. But that cannot be also stopped. Anyone who wants to become harijana, he can become in spite of all these things. He can defend himself.

Pusta Krsna: So should there be some effort?

Prabhupada: What is that effort? Teach them Sanskrit?

Pusta Krsna: No, to make the harijanas respectable.

Prabhupada: Anyone can respectable. That is already described. Mam hi partha vyapasritya [Bg 9.32]. Kirata-hūnandra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanaḥ khasadayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. Everyone can be, sudhyanti, they can be purified. But if you take the real process, this is Krsna consciousness process. Otherwise, simply by learning Sanskrit, what will be able...? There are so many big, big Sanskrit scholars in India. They are loitering in the street. Huh? What is it? You have met so many scholars. What is their position? That Prabhakara you know? He was my first student.

Pradyumna: Ah, Prabhakara. Hmm, hmm.

Prabhupada: He's a big Sanskrit scholar. But what is his position? He got big, big position also, but he could not stay. If one's mind is not fixed up, you learn Sanskrit or no Sanskrit, it will... [break] To make a good man, it is not necessary that one has to learn Sanskrit. He can be made good provided he fully surrenders to Krsna. Sarvair gunais tatra samasate suraḥ. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana [SB 5.18.12]. If one has got unflinching faith and devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then sarvair gunais tatra samasate suraḥ: all good qualities will develop automatically. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad guna. If he's not a devotee, he will hover over the mental concoction. Manorathenasati dhavato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Then he'll remain in the material platform, never mind he's a Sanskrit scholar or this or that.

Pusta Krsna: Would you like to hear another question, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Pusta Krsna: "It is said that while the srutis embody the eternal truths of Hinduism, the smrtis, which embody the rules of conduct, need to be revised according to the dictates of the changing times."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: "Will such a stand be acceptable to all sections of Hindus, and if so, how can the new smrtis come into being, and who will give them sanction and sanctity?"

Prabhupada: The authority will give. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is giving authority. The sastra is giving authority. But in this age, Kali-yuga, it is full of faults, the ocean of faults. And Sukadeva Gosvami is giving direction,

So although in this age there are so many faults, it is like the ocean of fault, but still there is one very great advantage, that simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra, one becomes purified. So this smrti injunction we should take up, and actually we see all over the world how it is purifying all section of people. So take this, then sruti smrti... Ah...

Pusta Krsna: Puranadi?

Prabhupada: Yes, everything will be fulfilled. The easiest method: kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sahgaḥ param vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

Pusta Krsna: So the srutis are eternally...

Prabhupada: Sruti... It is based on sruti. Sabdad anavrtti, in the Vedanta-sūtra. [SB 4.4.22] Simply by chanting, sabdat, brahma, sabda brahma, Sabdad anavrtti, in the Vedanta-sūtra. By chanting the holy name of Lord, one can become liberated.

Pusta Krsna: The smrtis are based on the srutis?

Prabhupada: Yes, smrti... Bhagavad-gita is considered smrti. So Bhagavad-gita also says, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drḍha-vrataḥ [Bg 9.14]. Sruti-smrti-puranadi [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101]. Brahma-vaivarta Purana: harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam . And it is practiced by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam sahgopahgastra-parsadam [SB 11.5.32]. Krsnam varnayati , always chanting Hare Krsna. So these are the evidences. So introduce this Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Everyone will be purified.

Pusta Krsna: Is smrti more than just rules of conduct?

Prabhupada: Yes. Smrti means... The Vedas are considered as, taken as sruti. But simply by hearing, one cannot understand. Therefore smrtis, they are explained. Purayati iti purana. Complete. The Vedic mantra is not always understood. Just like the Vedanta mantra, janmady asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is very shortcut. But Bhagavata explains, janmady asya yataḥ anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnaḥ svarat. Explanation. The smrti is explanation. So either you take sruti or smrti, subject matter is the same. But these are the evidences. Sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratriki-vidhim vina [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101]. You cannot be purified or become actually God conscious without reference to the sruti-smrti. We are pushing on this Krsna consciousness movement, it is not whimsically. It is based on sruti-smrti, pancaratriki-vidhi. Therefore it is becoming effective.

Pusta Krsna: Is it necessary from time to time to change the smrtis?

Prabhupada: That cannot be changed.

Pusta Krsna: Smrti cannot be changed?

Prabhupada: Nothing can be changed. But according to the time, you have to... Just like in Kali-yuga the smrti order is kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sahgaḥ param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. So you have to do this. Just like a physician gives a medicine that "Morning you take this medicine; in the evening you take this medicine." It is not a change of treatment; it is according to the time a different medicine. But it is recommended by the physician, not by your whims. Sruti-smrti cannot be changed, but they have recommended different process in different times. So the reference to the sruti-smrti is there, authority is there. It is... You cannot modify.

Pusta Krsna: There is no question then of, as he says, "new smrtis."

Prabhupada: No. New smrti, they may take it, "new smrti," but smrti is smrti. It is not new. You have to give reference to the past sruti-smrti. Otherwise, it is not... Veda pramana, sabda pramana. Otherwise there is no evidence. It is invalid, not valid. You cannot change the original sruti-smrti, but you have to take the timely recommendation. Just like Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva... . This is the only method. You take it. But this is sruti-smrti-pramana.

Pusta Krsna: They may say that if this is the method, then how does Deity worship fit into the scheme?

Prabhupada: You can avoid even Deity worship, but you cannot avoid chanting.

Radha-vallabha: Their idea is to abolish Deity worship. They consider it antiquated.

Prabhupada: If you want... If you want... Why you should try to avoid this? That means you are disregarding the sruti-smrti. But that is not the policy, that you should avoid it. But if you..., it is not possible... Just like it is not possible to introduce the Deity worship everywhere, anywhere. It doesn't matter. You chant Hare Krsna. It is not avoiding. It is the circumstance that does not make very favorable. Just like I did not introduce the Deity worship in the beginning. That was not possible. But when there is favorable condition we introduced. That is not avoidance. That is conditional. But especially chanting, that is possible in any condition of life. That is possible.

Pusta Krsna: So there's no question then, as he says, of bringing new smrtis which would come into being if someone would give them sanction and authority. The position, as you...

Prabhupada: But there cannot be new smrtis. We are giving the sanction to Hare Krsna maha-mantra because it is already there in the sruti. But for this time it is suitable. I am taking a certain type of medicine in the evening, it is already recommended by the physician. I am not doing it whimsically. So whimsically you cannot change. It must have reference to the sruti-smrti-puranadi [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101].

Pusta Krsna: Can anyone change...

Prabhupada: No!

Pusta Krsna: ...the rules of conduct as regarded in the smrtis?

Prabhupada: Nobody can change. Nobody can change. But rules and regulation for different times, different circumstances are there in the sruti-smrti. We have to take it. You cannot change.

Pusta Krsna: And who will sanction that application?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He said. He's authority. He's acarya.

Pusta Krsna: The acarya must sanction for the particular time and place.

Prabhupada: Yes. We are following the footprints of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is not whimsical. You have to follow the authority in all circumstances. You cannot avoid. That is illegal. It will have no power. Just like all of a sudden you make a low-class man a harijana. It will not stay. But you can make harijana any class of man provided you adopt the proper means.

Pusta Krsna: I think one more question that would be appropriate, because it kind of ties in which this last question. Number seven: "Hinduism has always renewed or revitalized itself according to the needs of the times. In today's context, are any correctives called for, and if so, who will bring them about and how can they be brought about, and made acceptable to all the masses?"

Prabhupada: First of all, who will take it? Krsna has given already according to the time. He has summarized the whole Vedic scripture in the Bhagavad-gita, but who is taking it? And Caitanya Mahaprabhu and all the acaryas, they have explained how to accept Krsna consciousness, or Krsna's instruction. So first thing you must be ready to take the presentation according to the time and circumstances. Then everything will be all right. If you manufacture your own way of life, if you do not take it from the authority, then it will be failure. Just like this harijana. Harijana is very good idea, make everyone harijana. But harijana is being picked up from the lowest class of men, the bhahgis and camaras. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, papa-yoni. But how this papa-yoni can be purified? Mam hi partha vyapasritya: by accepting Krsna as everything, that means full surrender. Then he can be, even if he's papa-yoni, he can be rectified. But if there is no question of surrendering to Krsna, and if you rubberstamp a low-class man that he has become harijana, how it will be effective? The condition is there, mam hi partha vyapasritya. Find out this verse.

"O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth-women, vaisyas, as well as sūdras-can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupada: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Krsna"? So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, mam hi partha vyapasritya [Bg 9.32]. Read the purport.

Dhrstadyumna: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called canḍalas, dog-eaters, can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there's no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men. Anyone can take to it. The most simple man, taking center of the pure devotee, can be purified by proper guidance."

Prabhupada: Yes. The guidance means how to take him to Krsna's shelter. Then he will be all right. The guidance is wrong, no question of Krsna, and he, simply by rubberstamping, "Here is a harijana," how it will be effective? Therefore it is failure. He remains the same drunkard, same meat-eater, and he becomes harijana. How it is possible? The guidance required. Param drstva nivartate [Bg 2.59]. He must be guided.

Pusta Krsna: You started this explanation by saying, "But who will take it?" So is this to say that this religion that you're speaking of is not trying to be made acceptable to the masses, or is it only for those who will take it?

Prabhupada: No, no. Unless you take it, where is question of religion? So that requires guidance. Just like to make a child educated, there is teacher required. Automatically how he can? A child, now you give him a rubberstamp, "Now you are M.A." Is he M.A? He must be guided to pass the M.A. examination, then he'll be, he's M.A. And "Because he is born in a certain family, he cannot be M.A.," that is not the fact. He can be M.A. provided the guidance is there, training is there. He can become M.A. It doesn't matter that because he is lowborn he cannot become M.A. No. He can become. The training is how to take shelter of Krsna. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Pusta Krsna: It appears from his question that his idea is that Hinduism is so flexible that whatever condition of life the masses are in, Hinduism will kind of envelop them, and they can still call themselves Hindus. But what you're saying is that actually the standard is there...

Prabhupada: We have already refuted. There is no such thing as Hinduism in the Vedic conception. It is sanatana-dharma or varnasrama-dharma.

Pusta Krsna: Is sanatana-dharma so wide that everyone can be...

Prabhupada: Sanatana means eternal. So na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. The identification of the living entity is already described, that it does not perish after annihilation of this body. That is sanatana. So that is meant for everyone. Not that the Hindus, after giving up this body, exist, and the Muslim or Christian does not exist. Everyone exists. That everyone is eternal, so sanatana-dharma is meant for everyone.

Pusta Krsna: Is there anyone actually outside of sanatana-dharma then?

Prabhupada: If he thinks. Otherwise, nobody is outside. If you think that you are not... There are so many rascals, they think that with the body everything is finished. But he may think so, but that is not fact. Similarly, if one thinks that "I am not sanatana-dharmi, I am Christian," you may think like that, but actually you are sanatanist. But if you think otherwise, you can think. Who can check it? When Krsna says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20], "The soul does not annihilate after the destruction of the body," is it meant for the Hindus? Everyone. Everyone is a living entity, everyone is a soul, and he's eternal. And eternal means sanatana.

Hari-sauri: So it depends on how one acts as to whether he can be accepted as...

Prabhupada: Then... "One acts" means he must act accordingly. If he does not act accordingly, that is his business. That's all.

Hari-sauri: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada.

Dhrstadyumna: Jaya. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. [devotees offer obeisances] [break]