Bhagavad-gītā 7.3 and Conversation with Kashiramji Saraf – August 30, 1975, Vṛndāvana

Harikesa: Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. [devotees repeat]

Bhagavad-gita As It Is by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada! Chapter 7, text 3

[break] [02:42]

Prabhupada: So, this will remain our rule for this time in the morning we will speak in English for these foreign students, what time do we speak… seven?

Person: Hindi is better…

Prabhupada: It is part of our routine that for our foreign students we have morning classes from 7.30 am to 8.30 am in English and in the evening we try to speak in Hindi from 7.30 pm to 8.30 pm. I do not have much practice for speaking in Hindi but I am Indian so I can speak a little.

So before I explain this Bhagavad-gita sloka, there is some good news which I want to share with you. This temple that you all say is a very beautiful one, the reason behind this Mr. Kashiramji Saraf and his wife, Smt. Geeta Devi. And when I first came to Vrndavana in 1971, this gentleman on his own accord proposed to donate this land to me. Then by the Lord's will, the donation was done and at that time I did not have any money also. Anyway by begging all over the world we have spent at least fifty lakh rupees on this. At that time Mr Kashiramji had kept some part of the land in the front for his own use but after seeing this temple he was very happy and he has said that this land also belongs to you. You can use this space as you want. You take it. On that land we are now going to make a gurukula. And the expenses incurred in building this gurukula will be met by Mr Visvambhar Nathji Agarwal, who is sitting next to me. He will give at least one lakh rupees, and may give more also. I will start the gurukula tomorrow. This Krsna consciousness movement, you all know something about this already, we are preaching Lord Krsna's name all over the world. The other name for this is Hare Krsna movement.

Big big scholars are writing books and articles on this movement. Professor Judah, from the Berkeley University has written a big book "Hare Krishna and Counter Culture", very scholarly book. Similarly this movement is being slowly appreaciated by everyone. And these are the words of Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

This was his prediction that in all the villages and towns all over the world, nagaradi, there will be preaching all over and it is happening also. They are accepting Indian culture with great respect. We will discuss this later on. Let us talk about the Lord's topics now, as today is His appearance day also. We should discuss something on that.

So, birth of the Lord, ajo 'pi sann avyayatma, the Lord is ajanma, the Lord is never born nor, we are parts and parcels of the Lord, we are born. Bhagavad-gita says, na jayate mriyate va [Bg 2.20] if we who are parts and parcels of the Lord are neither born nor do we die, then how can the Lord be born? So the Lord Himself has said,

Though the Lord is unborn, He takes birth. This is the inconceivable power of the Lord. Today is His appearance day, not only today, every day is the Supreme Lord's appearance day. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, just like the sun we see every day in the morning and we think that this is the birth of the sun or the rising of the sun. But the sun is there in the sky all the time but when we see it we think, the sun is rising now. Similarly in the unlimited universes, the Lord's appearance day is occuring all the time, His pastimes. Not only appearance but all the Lord's pastimes in Vrndavana, Mathura and Dvaraka, all these pastimes are eternal pastimes. It is not that the Lord appeared five thousand years ago and He is not existing now. No! The Lord is there till today. Just like you do not see the sun in the night time, it does not mean that the sun has left the sky or is not in the sky. The sun is existing always in the sky. That is why the Lord says, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ. So the appearance day of the Lord is not an ordinary event, it is transcendental, divine.

Just by understanding the appearance of the Lord in reality, you can be assured that he has achieved perfection and he is liberated. Just by knowing about the appearance of the Lord!

The Lord has used this word "tattva" a number of times. Even here in the sloka which was recited by them just now He says the same thing,

This Absolute Truth, we need to understand the Lord in truth, not in ordinary way. And how to understand this Absoulute Truth has also been explained by the Lord,

In three or four places this word "tattva" has been used. In the first place the Lord has said, Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ. And here He is saying, yatatam api siddhanam, those who have achieved perfection like yogic perfection. Actually the meaning of perfection is one who has attained the knowledge of self-realisation-that is perfection. First of all amongst thousands and crores of people, a few may try to achieve perfection. Not everyone does. That is why the Lord says,

And out of those who have achieved perfection, someone will understand the Lord in truth. Kascin vetti mam tattvataḥ. So Lord Krsna if someone thinks that He is born in Mathura in the same way that we are born, that is not reality, the truth. In reality! First we need to understand, just like the Mayavadis think the Lord has no form and when He descends He accepts a material body. This is not knowledge in reality. The real knowledge is that there is no difference between the body of the Lord and His soul. They are one. That is why the Lord says,

The Lord's body and the Lord's soul are not different, unlike our body and our soul which are separate. Our body is called ksetra and soul is called ksetrajna. The Lord has also explained this, that,

The living entity is the owner of this body, but the real owner is Supersoul. Just like there is a house there is an occupier and an owner. So the actual owner of our body is the Lord, but He has given us this body according to our desires but this body actually belongs to the Lord. That is why the Lord has yet another name, hrsikesa. In another place the Lords says,

This machine, this body is a machine. I am not this body. I am, dehino 'smin yatha dehe, [Bg 2.13] We have been seated on the machine. Who has seated? mayaya, Mayadevi who is one of the potencies of the Lord, is ordered by the Lord that, this person desires such and such body so give him such and such body. That is why the Lord says,

We get one machine and we make use of that machine to move about here and there and then according to our desires and our karma,

So for so many lifetimes we accept one body, then leave it to accept another body. So in this human form of life if we can understand the Lord in reality, in truth, janati vetti tattvataḥ, then we do not have to accept any more material body. This is scientific knowledge. jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam, [Bg 7.2] you all know this. So this appearance day of the Lord, the Lord is unborn. The Lord comes because, paritranaya sadhūnam and vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg 4.8] He has two missions to accomplished. First, to protect the pious and secondly, to kill the miscreants. The Lord is Absolute. Advaya jnana. His destruction and protection is the same thing. The one who is destroyed by the Lord is also delivered simultaneously. You all know this that, those whom the Lord kills with His own hands, just like He killed big big demons, they were liberated at that very moment. So that is why the Lord is called "all good". Whatever He does is for our benefit only. That is why the devotees of the Lord know that if for some reason they are put into miserable condition that is the Lord's mercy. This they should understand.

The devotee of the Lord never blames the Lord. Although they may be put in uncomfortable situations even then they offer their gratitude to the Lord, that "O Lord, it is Your mercy!" This is the vision of a devotee of the Lord. So the Lord is appearing today but the Lord does not appear only today. Just like the sun does not take birth only on one day. This is His daily activity if not in this universe, then in one of the unlimited universes. In every universe there is Vrndavana and in all these unlimited Vrndavanas', the Lord's appearance and activities are being enacted daily. These are the daily pastimes of the Lord. This is called nitya-lila. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has explained about this, that those who, as the Lord has said, understand the Lord activities in reality, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti he does not take birth again after quitting this material body. Our Vedic civilization is based on how to conquer the repetition of birth and death, nothing else. Not to gratify our senses here. Whatever fruitive actions, knowledge, fruitive actions will force one to take birth again. Jnana, yoga and bhakti, those who tread on these paths, what is the reason for that? To conquer the repetition of birth and death, punar janma jayaya, nothing else. [Ramayana].

We are in this material world that has four kinds of suffering. janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg 13.9] We are all big big scientists, philosophers, philanthropists and we want to solve all the problems of life. The Lord says, all these problems are immediate in nature, these will go on. The real problems of life are janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. So if we want to solve the problem so that we are not reborn again. So for not to be born again, the Jnani's say that they will merge into the Brahman, be one with Brahman. It is not difficult for the Lord to merge them with Him but the Vaisnavas or the devotees of the Lord do not want to merge with the Lord. He wants to be engaged forever in the service of the Lord. So the Lord also says, mam eti. mam eti means that if someone wants to merge then he can merge with the Brahmajyoti. Otherwise he can go to His eternal pastimes in Vaikuntha, in Goloka Vrndavana and be engaged in the service of the Lord. But there is a problem in merging into the bodily effulgence of the Lord. And that is sat-cit-ananda, you don't get ananda. Only eternity is accomplished. But by only achieving eternity one is not blissful. That is why the scriptures says,

Those who are not liberated but think themselves as liberated, their intelligence is not purified, tvayy asta-bhavad, because until one attains the shelter of the Lord, that liberation does not last. Why?

You know that many big big sannyasis say, brahma satya jagan mithya, they renounce this world saying it is false. And after some time in this life time itself they again entangle in politics or some such similar work because only liberation will not work.

If one stops at the brahma-bhūta then it is of no use, one has to advance further. That further advancement is accomplished by bhakti, mad-bhaktim labhate param. So after being a jnani or a yogi, if one becomes a bhakta by the association of devotees then his liberation is perfect, they go back to Godhead. These are some considerations. The Lord has come to teach us all this.

dharmasya glanir means when we forget the Lord. This is dharmasya glanir. Our religion, the Lord Himself says, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19] We cannot manufacture dharma. Just like nowadays it is a fashion that I manufacture one dharma and you manufacture one dharma. These are not the real dharma. These are all kaitava, cheating religion. That is why it is said in the Bhagavatam, Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo' atra, this cheating religion is to be thrown out. [SB 1.1.2] What is the real dharma? Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam, whatever the Lord says, that is real dharma. What does the Lord say?

This is dharma. This is what the Lord comes to teach us in every millennium. Today is the auspicious appearance day of the Lord, please accept what the Lord is teaching, make your life successful. This is the goal of our preaching, and this is Krsna consciousness movement. That is why we travel all over the world and people like it, accept it. What to talk about the Indians, they know all this already. Please be merciful and give us your blessings that we are able to propagate the teachings of the Lord all over the world as we are doing now. Thank you very much!

Hare Krsna!

Devotees: Haribol!

Guest: [Transl. Lord Krsna had driven away Kaliya serpent from the Yamuna. Then Lord Krsna killed Trnavarta demon who was coming to destroy Vrndavana in the form of a storm. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Just place it [microphone] little away from his mouth.]

Guest: [Transl. Then He...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's ok. That's enough.]

[Most indistinct talk below]

Prabhupada asks Kashiramji Saraf next to him: [Transl. Take prasadam here tomorrow at noon. Your wife is not here now?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. No. Not here now. How long are you going to be here in India?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I will start this gurukula and go. Gurukula Building.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Building? So about a month or two?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes, one month.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Ok. If she comes back by then then we can do the registration.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. So shall we start the construction?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Yes!]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You already had a talk with her, no?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Yes! When I come in the daytime, I will discuss with you the small details which are left.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Ok. Just behind this place Krsna and Balarama enact Their pastimes!]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Here? It happens!]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, the tradition says...many people say that here Krsna and Balarama come. There is a place here, just behind your this temple.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. I see! Will we get that spot also?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Is he giving it as donation?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No! This is that place where the pastimes of Krsna and Balarama actually happened.]

Prabhupada: Kapoorji? …[Transl. Hmm. Make a brief talk please.]

Prabhupada to another Guest in Bengali: [Transl. Why don't you say something?]

Guest: [Transl. What should I say?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Something little.]

Guest: [Transl. There will be drama performance now.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Oh, there is drama now.]

Guest: [Transl. I will speak later. Just twenty or twenty-five minutes.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I want that we should start the gurukula building, two storied, here itself. [aside:] speak in Hindi otherwise what will they understand? Please tell him to speak in Hindi. Sit down.]

Kashiramji Saraf: Inaudible.

Prabhupada: [Transl. I see. You have come to this temple for the first time?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. What?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Coming for the first time?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. No I have come many times.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I see.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. I have come many times.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Geetaji has come?]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Geetaji, I think, has not come after the inauguration of the temple.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, she came once in my presence.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Everything was nice during the inauguration ceremony?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes!]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. My heart and soul are very happy! Very happy!]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It's your blessings! It is yours only!]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. My soul is very happy! I am saying it from my heart.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, everyone says, that the temple is very beautiful.]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. My land has borne the results today.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It already did so, when you donated the land. This tamal tree, a lot of people told me to cut it down. I said, no!]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. No, Prabhu! This is the beauty of the temple! It is the beauty of the temple!]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes, very beautiful!]

Kashiramji Saraf: [Transl. Yes, it is the beauty of the temple Prabhu, we must not even consider such a thought. You make strict order that in your absence they may never cut it down.]

Prabhupada: No! No!

[Break] [end]