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Prabhupada: Why prakrti? When there is...

Dr. Patel: Na yotsya iti manyase..., mahad yotsya iti manyase mithyaisa vyavasayas te prakrtis tvam niyoksyati [Bg 18.59]. The prakrti drags you down in that world.

Prabhupada: Because he was trained up as a fighter.

Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg 18.45].

Prabhupada: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, to tell the truth, nature has divided it.

Prabhupada: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post of some position without qualification. That must be rectified.

Dr. Patel: That, what you say, that we should not have come in possession of the power in government, is a fact. They are real uncivilized. They have no that quality of government, I mean governing.

Prabhupada: Yes. What can be done? There is no ksatriyas.

Dr. Patel: They... You see, they govern for themselves, and not for the people.

Devotee: Mlecchas.

Prabhupada: There is no brahmana in the society.

Dr. Patel: If they are there, you know, they are not heard of.

Prabhupada: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brahmanas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern societies, they do not want brahmana, neither anybody interested to become a brahmana. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brahmana." [laughter] That is not possible. [laughs]

Dr. Patel: Our mixing of the Western type of society...

Prabhupada: Western, Eastern, we don't...

Dr. Patel: We have actually imbibed their spirit of special, I mean, arrangement or management. Otherwise, up to the other day, we were well, I mean, classified.

Devotee: Social orders.

Dr. Patel: After doing that fifty or hundred years, perhaps, we have lost our real mooring.

Prabhupada: No. It is necessary that in the society all classes of men must be there. Then it will be in order, on order.

Dr. Patel: The classes are complementary.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The highest evolved man, the brain trust of the country, has got to be poor and has to be protected by other men. That is the highest. Otherwise, if a man with the brain becomes rascal, it will become..., that is what is happening today.

Prabhupada: Miscreant. They are called duskrti. They have got merit..., they have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duskrti. Krti means meritorious. But duskrtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duskrtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirakara-vadi.

Dr. Patel: This current education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by Krsna and...

Prabhupada: Education..., and this is craftsmanship.

Dr. Patel: I had an appointment to speak on education in the university of Bombay as a member of the Senate. And the all, I mean, all the members of the Senate assembly said, "Well, we could not help it because we have been so..., it has been so planned by the government." That is not... This is not education that we're giving them. We are just giving them instruction how to read and write. The real education is the education of the mind, by which you can discriminate what is right from the wrong and follow the right.

That is what education is meant by the ancient sages. Modern universities are humbug things to me. The way I observed the university of Bombay working for ten years as a member of the Senate is humbug. The curriculum is humbug; the management is humbug-everything. Mode of examination is also like that.

Prabhupada: Because they are not conducted by really educated. [chants japa]

Dr. Patel: The education that has been actually put in practice in India by Macaulay was just to prepare people to run their institutions.

Prabhupada: [aside:] Where is Giriraja? Can you call him?

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: He said, Giriraja, that there is some declaration by Vinobha Bhave that "I'm now going to retire."

Dr. Patel: Who? Vinobha Bhave?

Prabhupada: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for moksa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform.

Indian: He is... Vinoba Bhave is really a brahmana. He is truly a brahmana.

Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. That may be. Brahmana is sattva-guna. That may be. But that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not.

Dr. Patel: Knowledge put in practice is, I mean, vijnana. Jnana vijnana saha.

Prabhupada: So if he's trying for becoming liberated, it is understood that he was not liberated.

Dr. Patel: He must have been disillusioned by all this. He has really done work in this way that anybody would be disillusioned, even you.

Prabhupada: Now, our point is that if you are not liberated, how you can become leader? That is cheating.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. To mislead others. Yes. There is only lust, anger… There is no spirituality.] The political, socio-political... You can call it some..., I don't know the sort of...

Prabhupada: Our point is that if you do not get knowledge from liberated person, that knowledge is useless. That is cheating.

[break] It is very easy. Just like a child: if he takes your direction, he's liberated, and if he acts according to his childish nature, then he's conditioned. If you take Krsna's instruction, then you are liberated. If you manufacture your own idea, then you are conditioned. Two things. Child is not actually liberated; he is child. But because he takes blindly the direction of the father, he's liberated. That is mam eva ye prapadyante [Bg 7.14]. Anyone who has surrendered to Krsna and strictly follows what Krsna says, then he is liberated. Otherwise not. If he manufactures idea, then he's conditioned.

Dr. Patel: It is what? Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]?

Prabhupada: Yes, and it is very easy: "Henceforward I shall simply follow what Krsna says." That's all. You become liberated immediately. It is one minute's task simply to decide that "No more my concoction, my imagination." Then he is liberated.

Dr. Patel: But this decision, all these things is done by the mind, which has got all the vartmas, vartmas of the past births.

Prabhupada: Mind may be, but if I ask the mind that "You cannot do anything except what Krsna says," then you are liberated. Very easy. You see? We are doing the same thing. We are not liberated. I am not liberated. But I am presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. That's my business.

Dr. Patel: You mean sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg 18.45]. That is your duty you have. That is what to be as you said.

Prabhupada: So that verse is very important. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. As soon as you become fully surrendered to Krsna, you are liberated. Not that liberated means one has to grow four hands and eight legs. No. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that "Henceforward I shall act only as directed by Krsna." That's all. You are liberated. It is one minute....

Dr. Patel: How do you get that direction moment by moment, hour by hour?

Prabhupada: By His representative, by His words. They are present. Where is the difficulty to get His direction? Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg 4.34]. One who has seen, one who has understood Krsna, take direction from him: "He's My representative." Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. If you get right guru, then you are liberated. If you follow the direction, if you want to please him, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah, then you are liberated.

Otherwise, what is the meaning of this? Mam eva ye prapadyante. There is no need of waiting for liberation. "As soon as one surrenders to Me, he is immediately above the platform of maya." Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66]. Hare Krsna. So what was the Vinoba Bhave's statement published in the paper?

Giriraja: That he's not going to give any more public lectures and he's not going to give any more advice to any institutions.

Prabhupada: But now he's thinking that it is useless. Otherwise why he would say like that? And moksa? He's going to try for moksa?

Giriraja: Yes. He's saying that by reducing these activities he wants to get moksa.

Prabhupada: So our point is that if he was not on the platform of moksa, liberation, why did he waste his time by spoiling himself and for spoiling others? Now he has come to his senses, that is good, but it is to be understood that he simply spoiled his time and spoiled others' career by misleading them. Thus, without being liberated, nobody can guide anyone. That is useless. That is andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. If you have no eyes, then how can you lead others? If you are blind and they are blind, then what is the use of becoming their leaders? Actually all the so-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves, and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And therefore our proposition is you take direction from Krsna and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, parampara system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated.

When one is under the direction of a liberated person... The same thing: electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And similarly, this parampara system, the electricity is going. If you cut the parampara system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much: sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah paran-tapa [Bg 4.2]. The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now, at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding.

By cutting some..., what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinobha Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting... Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership?

Dr. Patel: Sthitvasyam anta-kale 'pi brahma-nirvanam [Bg 2.72].

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Sthitvasyam anta-kale 'pi brahma-nirvanam rcchati. He thinks that way, that in the last moment he is..., comes to that stage, he will be...

Prabhupada: That is very good, but we should know also that so long, whatever he has done, that is from the blind platform, so nobody has gained anything. And if it was on the real platform, then svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat [Bg 2.40]. So krsna-bhakti is such nice thing that even a little... There are many places it is confirmed that even a person in krsna-bhakti stage falls down, being immature, what is the loss there? Tell me. Bhagavata... What is the loss there?

Dr. Patel: There is no loss, sir, by Krsna's grace, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg 6.41].

Prabhupada: So that is the... If krsna-bhakti, a little done... And what does he gain? If he does not take krsna-bhakti and does a duty, what does he gain? Abhajatam sva-dharmatah. Abhajatam sva-dharmatah. He strictly follows his occupational duty, but he's not a bhakta, what does he gain? Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer [SB 1.5.17]. Can anyone quote this verse?

Dr. Patel: Bhakti is your... Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya [Bg 18.46]. If you do your...

Prabhupada: That is the beginning. That is the beginning. That is also bhakti. But bhakti means he must be conscious that "Krsna is my Lord. I have to serve Him." That is the beginning of bhakti.

Dr. Patel: If he is not conscious, how can he do work for Him?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the beginning. Then it becomes purified more and more and more and more by service. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234] Then he realizes his position. Svayam eva sphuraty... The more he advances in sevonmukha, by service, God becomes revealed to him. And then buddhi-yogam dadami tam. Then as he becomes more confidential, then he is imparted buddhi-yogam, means bhakti-yoga. What is that bhakti-yoga? Yena mam upayanti te: "That bhakti-yoga, by which he can come back to Me." Not that bhakti-yoga means you remain here in this rotten place. Yena mam upayanti te. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam, buddhi-yogam dadami tam [Bg 10.10]. He can receive that buddhi-yoga. What is that buddhi-yoga? Yena mam upayanti. So this is required. This is the ultimate goal of life.

Dr. Patel: But that buddhi-yoga which we have left undone in the previous birth, God with His mercy gives you that buddhi...

Prabhupada: Buddhi-yoga continues, continues. If it is unfinished... Unless that buddhi-yoga is complete, one is not allowed. One is not allowed. He remains within this material world, very opulent position. Position like Indra, Candra, Brahma. They are devotees, but not pure devotees. They have got some tinge of material enjoyment. Therefore they are given big, big post. One has become Brahma, one has become the king of heaven, one has become the king of moon planet, sun planet. They are not ordinary living being.

Dr. Patel: Ananya... They are not ananya-bhaktas.

Prabhupada: No. They had some tinge, that "By bhakti I shall enjoy this material world." And bhakti means anyabhilasita-sunyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]: "I have not at all," niskincana. Niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya [Cc Madhya 11.8]. They don't care for this Brahma's post or Indra's post or... They don't care.

Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicarini [Bg 13.11].

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicarini.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kaivalyam narakayate. For a devotee, this kaivalya-sukha of the Mayavadi, impersonalist...

Dr. Patel: Just like naraka.

Prabhupada: It is the hell for them. What is this nonsense? Who will understand this? Bhakti is so exalted. Huh? Kaivalyam narakayate. And heaven, tridasa-purakasa-puspayate. The heavenly planets, they are will-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. What is there. Kaivalyam narakayate tridasa-purakasa-puspayate durdantendriya-kala-sarpa-patali [Caitanya-candramrta 5]. Karmi, jnani... Jnani wants kaivalya and karmi wants heavenly happiness.

And the yogi, yogi wants to control the senses. So he says that "Yes, we know the senses are very powerful." Durdantendriya-kala-sarpa-patali. Indriya, it is just like snake. If you play with a snake you do not know at any moment death is there by biting. So although these indriyas are like snakes, kala-sarpa, venomous serpent, but protkhata-damstrayate. We have e... What is called? Extricated? No.

Giriraja: It would be "extracted."

Prabhupada: Extracted the fangs. What is it?

Dr. Patel: Fangs.

Prabhupada: The fangs, if they are taken away, it may do like useless. Similarly, for a devotee the indriyas are dangerous. But because devotee, hrsikena hrsikesa, [Narada Pancaratra] they have engaged their indriyas in the service of the Lord, the fangs are taken away. Durdantendriya-kala-sarpa-patali protkhata-damstrayate visvam purna-sukhayate. The whole universe for them is very happy.

Everyone in it is very unhappy. For them it is very happy, because he does not see anything which is not suitable for Krsna's service. Visvam purna-sukhayate. Kaivalyam narakayate tridasa-purakasa-puspayate durdanta indriya-kala-sarpa-patali protkhata-damstrayate visvam purna-sukhayate vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate [Caitanya-candramrta 5]. And the post of vidhi, means Brahma and Mahendra... What is this? Kitayate. It is just like...

Dr. Patel: Bugs.

Prabhupada: Hah, just like ordinary insects. He is also living entity. He is enjoying in his own capacity, he's enjoying. Vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate yat-karunya-kataksa-vaibhavavatam tam gauram eva stumah. "It happened so by the little fragmental mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore I am offering my obeisances unto You."

Prabodhananda Sarasvati. Durdantendriya-kala-sarpa-patali protkhata-damstrayate visvam purna-sukhayate vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate yat-karunya-kataksa-vaibhavavatam tam gauram eva stumah [Caitanya-candramrta 5]. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy. A little mercy will render all this.

[pause] So what he will do now that he has not said?

Giriraja: He just said that "I will not follow religion in the traditional sense."

Prabhupada: That means another condition. [laughs] From frying pan to the fire. [laughter] Dharmena hinah pasubhih samana. As soon as you give up religious principles, you are no better than animal. That means he will manufacture-the same disease. "I'll not follow the traditional." This is their death block, that they always think that "I am independent. I can manufacture my way. I can become happy in that way."

They're always thinking. And if in a meeting if hundreds of men claps, that is his liberated: "Now it is approved." Who is approving? That is criticized by Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. This approvers... They are animals, and they are applauding another animal, that's all. Big animal, that's all. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah. These ordinary persons, they are pasu, and they are applauding. So the man who is applauded, he's another big pasu. That's all.

Trivikram: Camels, asses...

Prabhupada: Hmm? Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.

Dr. Patel: Just like camel and ass. Ahorupa mahad-dhvani. One man is preaching...

Prabhupada: They... It is very difficult. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah [SB 5.18.12]. They may speak all these big, big words, but they have no qualification. Only disqualification is that they do not accept God as Supreme and His instruction is...

Dr. Patel: They may be accepting God as Supreme, but of their own imagination.

Prabhupada: That is their imagination. God is canvassing, "Yes, I am here." Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. "Why don't you think that I am the Supreme?" But these rascals will never believe it. And still they'll write Gita-pravacana. Very dangerous. Gita is spoken by God.

Dr. Patel: Sir, have you read the essays on Gita by Aurobindo?

Prabhupada: Huh? Some portion.

Dr. Patel: He had really... He was believing...

Prabhupada: No, he wanted to prove himself that he is Purusottama.

Dr. Patel: No, he's not Purusottama. He does not say that. Purusottama is really reality in true sense, and is to be attained.

Prabhupada: But his disciples say he is more than Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Disciples..., I mean, sannyasa disciples...

Prabhupada: That means why he has created such nonsense? If his disciples say something wrong, then that means he is also wrong. These people will never say that "Our Guru Maharaja is more than Krsna." They are not so nonsense. They will say, "My Guru Maharaja is servant of Krsna, and I am his servant."

Dr. Patel: He has said Purusottama is really the svarupa. It cannot be a... Anything which is infinite cannot be grasped by finite senses. That's what he said.

Prabhupada: This is going on. But disciples say that Aurobindo is more than Krsna. This is their knowledge.

Trivikrama: That means he's failed as a guru. He hasn't...

Prabhupada: He could not give them right knowledge. Phalena pariciyate. The paricaya is to be understood by the result. The disciple is the result. If they are so fools, then what is the guru?

Dr. Patel: That's the only... In our Vaisnava parampara, this Vallabhacarya, the whole lot is now being divided. I have seen it.

Prabhupada: They are criticizing us.

Dr. Patel: I mean Anand Mehta… [indistinct]. This thing is disturbed by us. This thing is the God has to reincarnate Himself again to reestablish the bhagavata-dharma.

Prabhupada: That is everywhere. If you don't mind that, your Swami Narayana is also like that.

Dr. Patel: All of them. They are regenerated. That is why, I mean, regeneration is created by God again by the incarnation.

Prabhupada: They create a cheap God. Real God they reject. That is going on.

Dr. Patel: Swami Narayana said that

We have only to worship Krsna. Nobody else. Unfortunately the disciples... Suppose the disciples tomorrow...

Prabhupada: That the same thing. If the disciples are rascals, then what is the guru?

Dr. Patel: The disciples will call guru Krsna again. That is what happens in all the other Vaisnava groups, you see. They say "Vallabhacarya Mahaprabhu" in place of "Krsna." That is wrong. Yatha..., yatha deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha... [SU 6.23]

Prabhupada: Gurau.

Dr. Patel: Gurau. That is fact. Then you can get the real, I mean, krpa of the guru and realize God. But they're...

Prabhupada: No, these things are happened by Vallabhacarya. That's a long history generally. They call him Mahaprabhu to make competition with real Mahaprabhu, Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya was disciple of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Prabhupada: Not disciple. Very admirer. But when He criticized him strongly on account of his attacking Sridhara Svami...

Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahaprabhu differs in philosophy from Madhvacarya. He did.

Prabhupada: Yes. But they were friend, Vallabhacarya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So he wanted to present his Subodhini tika [commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam] to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that "You will find better than Sridhara Svami."

Dr. Patel: That is the highest commentary.

Prabhupada: So He became very dissatisfied. He... Because friendly, He said that "If you don't accept Svami, then you are a vesya." These words iritated: svami yeba nahi mane vesya bale gani [Cc Antya 7.115]. These are there, these words.

Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya's establishment of his own, I mean, family tradition..., family members as the parampara is wrong. That is why the whole system has degenerated.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not sisya-parampara.

Dr. Patel: Sisya-parampara is the right... The same thing is happening in Swami Narayana's. They have become degraded. Because Swami Narayana actually put his two nephews in as acarya. That was wrong. In South with Ramanujacarya, they have got a sisya-parampara. But they have also degenerated. I mean, this system...

Prabhupada: No. Sons also may become sisya, provided he's qualified. Otherwise not.

Dr. Patel: These Alawars were the real fellows. Real. They..., this sisya-parampara in two...

Prabhupada: Sisyan ca putran ca. [Canakya Pandita]

There is no difference. But not because he is sisya of such person or putra of such person. Not like that. Either sisya or putra.

Dr. Patel: The guru-sisya is as good as putra. More than a putra. To a real guru the sisya is more than a putra.

Prabhupada: For guru there is no difference. But the real thing is qualification. That gotra, our gotra, that is applicable to the sisya and to the putra.

Dr. Patel: That is in sisya-parampara they have got that, I mean, this...

Prabhupada: Gotra... Just like Gautama-gotra, Kasyapa-gotra. This gotra means this family, either sisya or putra. Just like Gautama-gotra, there are many brahmanas, ksatriyas. So those who are brahmanas, it means putras, and those who are ksatriyas and vaisyas, they are sisyas. But the gotra is the same. [pause] So we shall go down. [end]