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Prabhupada: I spoke about this cosmic manifestation, where is Vaikuntha, where is... This is a church?

Tamala Krsna: Second Church of Christ Scientist.

Hari-sauri: Was it a Catholic church or..., where you went?

Ramesvara: The Library Party said that everywhere they go in India, they find that you went there first with your first three volumes of Bhagavatam. Especially in New Delhi, they said. There's one institute which had fifty sets of your original first canto, so now they ordered fifty complete sets to complete the books they had. They said that all the major colleges had your original Bhagavatams in India, first edition. So then they could understand that you were distributing books yourself.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: They became very enlivened, inspired.

Prabhupada: In India the sannyasis beg, but I did not beg. I sold my Back to Godhead, books. I got income tax free for "League of Devotees."

Tamala Krsna: You always gave literature.

Prabhupada: I think this church.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, Universalist Church. You always gave literature in return for donations you received.

Prabhupada: That is going on still.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Knowledge..., what is this?

Hari-sauri: It says "Truth, knowledge, vision."

Ramesvara: This is a museum.

Hari-sauri: "State of New York Memorial to Theodore Roosevelt."

Prabhupada: Who is this gentleman on the horse?

Ramesvara: That's one of the former presidents, Theodore Roosevelt.

Prabhupada: This road is very infamous.

Hari-sauri: Very infamous?

Prabhupada: Yes. Means notorious. They say that black men, they capture white women.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. I've seen it. When I was very young I saw it. I was playing in the park, because I lived next to Central Park, and this..., these... We were playing with my friend and his sister, and this black man jumped and grabbed her and raped her right in Central Park. I was only about six years old.

Prabhupada: And what was the age of the girl?

Tamala Krsna: About twelve. So I have personal experience. Especially in the upper part of this park, about Eighty, Ninetieth, Hundredth Street, there it's very dangerous. Where we are on Fifty-ninth street, it's not very dangerous. And on the east side down here it's not that dangerous.

Prabhupada: Just see these black men living in such a highly rich country, and civilized men, but their nature is not changed. Aṅgarah sata-dhautena malinatvam na muncati. [Even if you wash coal for hundred times it will still remain black.] But they can be changed only in Krsna consciousness. No other way. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa... [SB 2.4.18].

[break] [on walk]

Bali-mardana: Fifty-ninth Street.

Tamala Krsna: This is a good location. This building is for sale.

Prabhupada: This is that Vedic om or something like that?

Hari-sauri: I think so. It says "Om eternal."

Bali-mardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: The om word is used in English?

Bali-mardana: Om is very popular in English language for a long time. When they think of mystical things, they think of om. The English, originally because they were in India, they thought to imitate some Indian words.

Prabhupada: Many Indian words have been introduced in dictionary. And many English words is also introduced. That is natural. [break]

Bali-mardana: ...introduced Krsna in the Western world.

Prabhupada: No, it was in the dictionary.

Bali-mardana: But many people had never heard it before you brought it.

Tamala Krsna: And also the dictionary definition is not perfect.

Bali-mardana: The first time I heard Krsna was from Allen Ginsberg.

Prabhupada: He went to India.

Bali-mardana: And he learned it from you.

Hari-sauri: Generally in the dictionary they say Krsna is one of the Hindu trilogy of gods.

[break]

Prabhupada: …. samsare moha janamiya. This world is anitya; you cannot stay here. That is sure. And still we are attached. We make so many arrangements...

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, a man sees that his father has died-everyone is dying-why does he believe that he will not die?

Prabhupada: That is the wonderful thing. Kim ascaryam atah param [Mahabharata, Vana-parva 313.116], Yudhisthira Maharaja said. He was asked, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" So he replied, "This is the most wonderful thing, that everyone sees that everyone is dying; he's thinking 'I shall not die.' This is the most wonderful thing."

Bali-mardana: But the hedonists, they say that "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you will die."

Prabhupada: No, no, he knows that he'll die, but still he does not prepare, because he's foolish. Pramattah tasya nidhanam pasyann api na pasyati. [SB 2.1.4] Pramattah, mad, crazy. He sees that everyone dies, "I am also dying," but he does not know what is after death.

Bali-mardana: He does not know what to do to prepare.

Prabhupada: That is ignorance. So this education, this civilization is so dangerous that everyone is kept in the darkness. And when he dies, this everything is finished, he's going to accept. Whatever body the nature gives him, he has to accept.

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes people criticize us that we are talking too much about death.

Prabhupada: Because we are not fool like you. Because "As sure as death." But you are so fool you do not think of it. So we are not rascal like you. This is the difference. We take practical reality, but you are such a fool you don't care for the reality. So we are not so fool like you are.

Tamala Krsna: But even though you are making so many arrangements to prepare yourself, still you have to die.

Prabhupada: That's all right. I'll die, but I am... Just like one has to go somewhere, he'll know everyone has to go. Man..., suppose a building has to be dismantled. So the tenants or the residents, they make arrangement, "Where shall I go next?" And the foolish rascal, he doesn't care. And when the time comes for dismantling the house, he becomes busy, oh, he does not know. That is the difference between you and me. I know this house is to be dismantled, so I'm making preparation where to go and stay. But you are such a fool, you are thinking that we'll stay here.

Bali-mardana: It's like on the ship they have a drill in case the ship is going to sink, so you know where to go. But they make no preparation where to go after death, which is certain.

Prabhupada: That is dog's life-the dog does not know.

Bali-mardana: They are two-legged dogs.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: But there's a popular philosophy now that actually the dog is happy.

Prabhupada: Yes, ignorance is bliss. It is folly to be wise. Fool's paradise. Anyone..., like a child is happy. There is danger, but child does not care for it. But therefore it is called foolish. That is the difference between child and the child's father.

Bali-mardana: They may say that he is happy, but he may kill himself at any moment. [break]

Ramesvara: They say it is impossible for any man to know what will happen to him after death. It is not possible, so why think about it?

Prabhupada: But after all, there is death. So why you are afraid of death? Why you do not die peacefully? Why you protest against death? Huh? If I want to kill you, will you peacefully die?

Ramesvara: No.

Prabhupada: Why you scream? Why don't you want to die?

Ramesvara: Give up my life, my body?

Prabhupada: Why you are so much attached to live? That is the question. Now "I'm dying, let me die." Why you protest? That means your nature is that you shall live. But you are being interrupted by death. That is the...

Radha-vallabha: The doctors say they have seen death, and it looks very much like a very peaceful sleep.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Radha-vallabha: My mother told me this. She said... She was a nurse, and she's seen many people die, and they all look very peaceful when they die.

Prabhupada: Nobody dies peacefully. [laughs] They shall cry.

Tamala Krsna: You have described it very vividly in the Bhagavatam, how horrible it is.

Prabhupada: I have seen one of our relatives, she's dying, and his second son, she's calling, "My dear such and such, I give you in charge. I could not do," like that. And died.

Bali-mardana: She was attached.

Prabhupada: Everyone is attached. I have seen one of my nephews, young man. So his young wife and children, when he was... He began to strike his head like that, that "I am dying without any provision for my wife and..."

Tamala Krsna: What is his future?

Prabhupada: Future means he'll have to come back again, either in the same family or in the dog's family, dog's life. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg 8.19]. In this way, he'll take birth and die. Yes.

Radha-vallabha: You were saying they take rest for seven months and they wake up a dog.

Prabhupada: Maybe dog or maybe somebody else; that doesn't matter.

Svarupa Damodara: In the last, about three years ago or so, there is a new branch of study, it is called biomedical ethics, that deals with the symptom of death: How can one define when a person dies? What are the symptoms? And how can we judge that this man is dead? It is a great controversy in medical science.

Bali-mardana: They went to the Supreme Court to question when does death occur.

Prabhupada: So what Supreme Court will decide? [laughter] What you nonsense judge know? He's also as good a rascal as the person who put the question.

Bali-mardana: Actually, they admitted that they could not decide.

Ramesvara: The argument is that by medicine or by injecting some..., inserting some apparatus, some machine, they can keep the heart beating.

Prabhupada: You rascal, he's another rascal. And one who believes in it, he's also a rascal.

Hari-sauri: I was reading the other day that at one university they started a course where they take the students through a course of death. They study death, and then they try to get them to...

Prabhupada: If it was possible to keep them by medicine, then no rich man would have died. They have got sufficient means to pay for medicine, and he would have kept his relatives, son alive. Balasya neha saranam pitarau nrsimha nartasya cagadam udanvati majjato nauh [SB 7.9.19]. Prahlada Maharaja has said. It is not possible.

Ramesvara: They are very hopeful that modern medicine can keep them...

Prabhupada: They are hopeful of everything. That is their foolishness. Hope against hope, that's all. The hope will never be fulfilled, still... Therefore they are called pramatta. Pramatta means mad, crazy. Their hopefulness means that is a proof that crazy, mad.

Bali-mardana: Some of the rich men, they buy a cabinet that their body is put into, and they hope that they will wake up in a thousand years...

Prabhupada: Yes, hope there must be, otherwise how they are foolish? This is called... What is called? Bakanda-nyaya. Bakanda-nyaya. Baka, the duck, and anda, the testicle. So the bull, he has a testicle hanging, and the baka is thinking it is a fish. [laughter] So he's going, he's...

[gesticulates] [laughter] This is called bakanda-nyaya.

Svarupa Damodara: I have seen it.

Prabhupada: Everyone knows, this is a common thing in India. You'll see, the baka is going on. He's hoping, "This fish will drop and..." [laughter] Therefore they are baka. Boka means rascal, boka means rascal. In India we say any fool, boka or baka.

Bali-mardana: Baka is a duck?

Prabhupada: Means that the duck is a fool. Bakanda-nyaya. Very appropriate, this bakanda-nyaya. Logic of duck and testicle.

Ramesvara: You say they are ghostly haunted.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Ramesvara: Ghostly haunted.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone, the materialistic man means ghostly haunted. He's talking so many nonsense. The whole grade, philosophy, science and everything, all ghostly talking, that's all. There is no reality. Just like the new science you said, what is that?

Svarupa Damodara: Huh?

Prabhupada: That new medical science?

Svarupa Damodara: Biomedical ethics.

Prabhupada: A big name.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, it's a nice name. They started with theology also now, in the speculative branch of theology.

Prabhupada: So in spite of these big, big names and research and everything, man will die. This is bakanda-nyaya. He's thinking it will drop. It will never be possible, but they're thinking that by these big, big names we shall find out the way that man will not die. This is bakanda-nyaya. Hope against hope. So by that method they want to live? No.

Bali-mardana: No. They want to decide when to turn off the machine that is keeping the heart beating, because sometimes the brain stops functioning. The person..., the body is still alive, but there's no consciousness.

Prabhupada: The coma.

Pusta Krsna: Also they cut out the hearts when they do these heart transplants. They've been accused of taking out the heart of a living person.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: The doctors have been accused of taking out the hearts of living persons.

Prabhupada: Oh. So how to use it? What they'll use?

Ramesvara: Sometimes if a man is in critical condition he will donate his bodily organs, so they will kill him just to take out his heart so that they can use it for transplanting.

Bali-mardana: When his brain stops, even though the heart is beating, they take it out.

Prabhupada: So?

[pause]

Prabhupada: That is the question put by Sanatana Gosvami. Ke ami, kene more jare tapa-traya [Cc Madhya 20.102]. "I want to live, but what is that force that does not allow me to live?" This is the question. This is the question. They are trying to find out so many laws, so many..., what is the purpose? They want to live, but there is a force that will not allow you to live. That is the human question. When this question arises, then he is human being; otherwise he's a dog. Dog never inquires.

Pusta Krsna: He has no control over it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: He has no control over it.

Prabhupada: Neither he can understand. He has no intelligence.

Tamala Krsna: Today is the disappearance day of Sanatana Gosvami.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Tamala Krsna: It is also guru-purnima.

Prabhupada: Today?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Is there some special celebration or significance?

Prabhupada: Guru-puja, that you are doing daily. [reads sign] "Model sailboat."

Tamala Krsna: Yes, the children come here, not only children but adults, and they have some model, toy models which they sail around.

Prabhupada: So it is not very deep.

Tamala Krsna: No. It's a very colorful display. Hundreds of people come, especially on Sundays, sailing their boats.

Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada? In this biomedical science, this ethics, there's a problem arising. The person, the family of the person who is suffering, says that "Please don't apply these machines. Let the person die." But the medical doctors say, "No, we'll keep him alive as long as we can go on." So this is a problem. So who's right? Is the family right, or...

Prabhupada: Family right. Family is intelligent, that "You are rascal, why you are trying? Let him die peacefully."

Bali-mardana: They say, "Let him die in dignity. Why keep him in the machine?" The family says, "Let him die in dignity."

Ramesvara: They keep him in coma.

Prabhupada: After all, you cannot protect. Why you give trouble at the time of death? You cannot protect; your foolish attempt will not help him. This is the same philosophy, that the animal is suffering, to kill him. Mercy of killing, what is called?

Ramesvara: Euthanasia. Mercy killing.

Prabhupada: So this is nonsense. Mercy killing. Killing mercy. [laughs] Just see. The action is killing, and that is his mercy. This is their mercy. All contradictory. Killing by mercy? Mercy is killing?

Hari-sauri: There's an example that's just going up to the courts now. There's one family, their daughter was being supported by one machine, so that one day they went in early and pulled out the plugs. So now they are being taken to court. They stopped the machine because she'd been in a coma for so long, so they just pulled out the plugs and everything, the machine. So that's what they call mercy killing. They don't like the doctors just to keep them there uselessly.

Ramesvara: But then they want to kill the old people. This mercy killing, they think that "An old man is suffering, so let us kill him."

Pusta Krsna: They think if someone dies in their sleep, they are very lucky.

Prabhupada: It is dangerous to die here.

Tamala Krsna: Not as dangerous as in Africa. I saw one movie, and there's one tribe, that when a man becomes very old...

Prabhupada: Yes, I've heard of that.

Hari-sauri: They throw him on the roof, and then eat him.

Prabhupada: That is a feast.

Tamala Krsna: Love feast.

Prabhupada: Grandfather feast. Now great-grandfather feast.

Cyavana: We're preaching to them, Srila Prabhupada. Trying to change them.

Ramesvara: Also the Eskimos, when a man gets old, if he is an Eskimo, then he has to go out into the ice lands and wait for some animal to kill him. He cannot stay at home and be supported by the family.

Bali-mardana: He eats too much, they say.

Ramesvara: Too much burden.

Bali-mardana: Because he's eating, and he is not able to go and hunt, they send them out to die.

Prabhupada: The Communists also, they'll do. All old men should be killed. That time is coming. Don't become old. [laughter]

Tamala Krsna: You are teaching us to remain young forever, Prabhupada.

Svarupa Damodara: One must become Krsna conscious to become young.

Prabhupada: So many difficulties will come unless there is Krsna consciousness. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66], if you want to be happy.

Svarupa Damodara: That's true. If people are Krsna conscious, they won't be worried of these problems like death and all these...

Bali-mardana: You are instructing us to finish up our business in this life.

Just like Prahlada Maharaja was put in so many dangerous conditions. He was not afraid. "Hare Krsna," he would chant.

Cyavana: All over the entire world we find the Indian community, practically speaking. Is this part of Lord Caitanya's plan to help spread this Vedic culture?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's order, that you speak the Vedic culture. That is India's mission. But these rascals, they are speaking technology.

Devotee: Try to make money.

Tamala Krsna: They say that it is due to this culture that India has been kept down. Because the British taught them that, and now they themselves think like that.

Prabhupada: Still, any Indian who comes to speak about some culture like this, you flock together. Why? Why you go to this Maharishi and this Bal Yogi and this one? Why?

Pusta Krsna: They're from India.

Prabhupada: Because you expect something from India. They are cheating, that is different thing, but you go there to get something from India. That's a fact.

Tamala Krsna: That means you have delivered the real goods, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: That's a fact. They're expecting. I read some article from India: they're expecting some good message.

Bali-mardana: They are like glowworms, and you are like the sun.

Prabhupada: No, they know that "These people, they are wanting something, so let us go and cheat." This is going on.

Bali-mardana: They're simply businessmen.

Prabhupada: So far I am concerned, I have not come here to cheat you nor to gain. I've come to execute the order of my Guru Maharaja.

Bali-mardana: Jaya. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I have no business to cheat you, neither to get something from you.

Devotee: Prabhupada, is it possible that a living entity, a jiva soul, can have pastimes in relation to God?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee: If it's not nonsense...

Bali-mardana: He's a crazy boy. [break]

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, para-upakara. One who is to come from India, he should come for para-upakara, for doing welfare to others, not to cheat them. But these people, they come. In the name of para-upakara, they cheat. Which way we have to go?

Devotees: This way.

Tamala Krsna: This is easier.

Bali-mardana: Prabhupada, you are the only Indian who has taken up this mission, out of six hundred and eighty million. [dog barking loudly]

Woman: Don't touch that dog. He's wearing a muzzle. Just leave him alone, he won't trouble you. [laughter]

Prabhupada: What she said?

Hari-sauri: She says don't touch the dog, it's wearing a muzzle.

Radha-vallabha: She should wear a muzzle. [break]

Prabhupada: ...come with dog. Dog is not allowed.

Radha-vallabha: That's her family.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Radha-vallabha: That's her family.

Cyavana: Sometimes they say, "I treat my dog just like he were my own child."

Prabhupada: "Dog's mother." Why don't you call in one word, "I am dog's mother." [laughter]

Hari-sauri: They keep all kinds of things as pets. My mother knew a woman who kept a pet pig. She used to carry it around like a dog, in her arms, with a little bow.

Prabhupada: When the natural tendency is to get child, but child is killed, and a pig is taken. This is their civilization. Child is killed and pig is taken, dog is taken. This is their civilization.

Bali-mardana: They are preparing for their next birth as a pig.

Prabhupada: Yes. Naturally you take child, take it: "No, that kill." And take artificially a pig or dog or cat. Take it.

Tripurari: They say animal has no soul, therefore they can kill the cow and eat the meat. But when we say, "What if I cut your dog's head off," they become very upset.

Prabhupada: Accha? Why upset? It has no soul. Kill it.

Tripurari: They cannot explain it.

Tamala Krsna: There was one story that this family came, they were touring the world, and they came to Hong Kong, and they were carrying their pet dog with them also. So they went to one restaurant and they left their dog tied up on a leash outside the restaurant, because that is the custom in America. So they told the man at the door, the doorman, they pointed to the dog, just to take care of the dog. So anyway, then they went in and they had their dinner and then they came out, and the dog was gone. They said, [laughter] "Where's my dog?" And the man said, "Well, you pointed to him, we have prepared him for you."

Prabhupada: Yes, they do that. He thought that he has pointed out this dog.

Hari-sauri: They brought their dinners with them.

Tripurari: Man cannot understand, but a little child can understand very easily. Just like one of our book distributors, Praghosa, when he was a young child they had a pet duck, the family, and one day the father killed the duck and put him on the table.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Tripurari: They roasted the duck and put him on the table, but none of the children would eat. They became sick and they left. They would not eat. The father could not understand.

Hari-sauri: My father did that with a pet rabbit that I had as well. Came home from school one day and it was gone.

Prabhupada: They are eating their own child even.

Ramesvara: Prabhupada, we come from the lowest of the low.

[in car]

Tamala Krsna: What about the possibility of opening more than one temple in this city? Just like if there's a good building on the East Side, if we can manage, what about the possibility of that?

Prabhupada: If you can manage, very good. In a city like New York you can have ten, twelve centers.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. I mean the Christians have so many churches in every part of the city.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Similarly, we can have temples.

Ramesvara: You said that once in Los Angeles to me.

Prabhupada: That Juhu temple, Akash Ganga, you know? Everyone asked me not to go there, "Nobody will go there." I said, "It is Bombay city. Wherever we shall go, people will come."

Tamala Krsna: The question is whether, if we open another temple, it will increase the total number of people coming, or whether simply the same people will come to two different locations.

Prabhupada: Yes, if you have got demand, then you can open.

Tamala Krsna: First let us fill up this place.

Ramesvara: In other words, instead of filling up that building and then just buying a new one, you just buy a second temple. And keep it that way.

Prabhupada: That's a good building.

Tamala Krsna: We shouldn't give it up. Very good facility. Especially once we make all improvements on it, why we should give it up? Better to simply open another one.

Prabhupada: And that is advertised means nobody's purchasing at this quarter, it is not very safe.

Tamala Krsna: This quarter? No, this is the most prestigious. Fifth Avenue between Seventy-ninth Street and Thirty-fourth Street is the prime location. That's about as far north as you would want to go. Any further north uptown will not be nice, but this area here is very select. The best area is from Fifty-ninth Street to Thirty-fourth Street on Fifth Avenue, where all the shops are, the library. That area is very high class. This is Fifty-seventh Street, Fifty-fifth Street.

Ramesvara: Prabhupada, if the spiritual master has a mission, is it proper for the disciple to think that he can take more than one..., he can take many births to help the mission of the spiritual master?

Prabhupada: When the spiritual master goes there, somewhere, his nearest assistants, they automatically go there to assist him. When Krsna comes, the demigods also come to help Him. That is there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. All these Yadus, Yadu family, they came from heaven. So before Krsna's disappearance, by some trick they were all killed and they returned to their original place. It is nicely described in the Caitanya-caritamrta. Just see, small house, this yellow. Still, in New York City.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, small little house. [end]