Audio

Ramesvara: The religions editor for one very big newspaper is coming, and he has asked if it is possible he can interview you for his newspaper.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Yes.

Ramesvara: So that's all right. He's coming at ten o'clock, and then I'll show him around, so maybe by ten-thirty.

Tamala Krsna: Before the massage.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's right time.

Hari Sauri: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.

Tamala Krsna: ...widespread, Srila Prabhupada, very widespread. Now I'm afraid about it being in New York, because one of the leaders has been... I just found out that he's one of the leaders. He's been in New York for about three weeks on his way to London, and he's a puj..., he has his own Deities, which he has on the altar, which means he's talking to our pujaris. I am..., I have to get back there as soon as possible to see. They have, like, a newsletter they send out all over the world.

Ramesvara: They mail it out?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, well, it's a bunch of notes they mail out on a regular basis. It's really poisonous. Pradyumna has been investigating. He got a bunch of their notes photocopied. The one thing I've noticed about the people that are involved with this... Two features I particularly have noticed. One of them is that they don't go out on saṅkirtana. Everyone I've seen...

Prabhupada: Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiya party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-pranali.

Tamala Krsna: What does that mean, Srila Prabhupada, siddha-pranali?

Prabhupada: Siddha-pranali is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-pranali. [break]

Ramesvara: ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position.

Tamala Krsna: There are some very strange notes. You should see those notes.

Ramesvara: Yes, I've read them all already.

Tamala Krsna: You did?

Prabhupada: They have learned it from these Radha-kunda babajis.

Tamala Krsna: From Radha-kunda babajis?

Prabhupada: Babajis, yes. After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say.

Ramesvara: The dangerous thing is that they are using your book for authority.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Authority, where? What is that? That I've already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya Mahaprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take. They'll take the Radharani's bhava. What Caitanya Mahaprabhu is teaching by His practical life, that we have to take.

Ramesvara: There is one statement, Srila Prabhupada, regarding devotional service in a reverential mood. So they have found some quote, they are quoting, that this reverential devotional service is an impediment towards developing pure love.

Tamala Krsna: Another place they quote that regulative principles are a hindrance on the path. Because there's a statement that I think Yamunacarya says.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: There's a statement somewhere in one of your books that when one attains the highest platform...

Prabhupada: Then where is that highest platform?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, there's no question of it.

Ramesvara: One must go through stages.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: You gave the example of trying to get an M.A. degree.

Prabhupada: Yes. One has to come to that highest stage. It is not forbidden. That may be ideal, but not for the neophytes. You must... One who does not know A-B-C-D, what he will know about M.A. degrees? That they do not know. They think that they have already passed M.A. degree. That is their fault.

Tamala Krsna: There's another statement, I saw them, where it says..., it's a quote, that you can treat Krsna as your lover and Krsna will reciprocate.

Hari-sauri: And they underlined the two words "you can" treat Krsna as your lover. Like that. In this way they're taking your quotes out of context.

Ramesvara: This is one of their main..., the main ideas in their philosophy is that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with Krsna.

Prabhupada: That's all right, he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire.

Tamala Krsna and Ramesvara: Deserve then desire, oh.

Prabhupada: You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to high-court judge. What is this nonsense?

Ramesvara: But then they have an answer.

Prabhupada: What is that answer?

Ramesvara: That "Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..."

Prabhupada: How you can try it? First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer. Then you become high-court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and bidi and you want to be associated with the gopis.

Ramesvara: They say that "In ISKCON, we do not..."

Prabhupada: Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. Sahajiya babajis, that's all.

Tamala Krsna: There's about forty of them in this temple. Fifty. There's fifty of them in this temple, Prabhupada.

Ramesvara: Oh, really?

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes.

Hari-sauri: A women's group and a men's group.

Tamala Krsna: There's a women's group with about twenty-five or thirty.

Hari-sauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopis with Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, then let them... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for them in the temple. Let them go out.

Ramesvara: They are following.

Tamala Krsna: The leader... What is that leader? What's her name?

Ramesvara: Some girl from London. Purnacandra. She's an excellent typist. She is working on your books, typing.

Tamala Krsna: She had, er, an abortion in Europe.

Ramesvara: As a devotee?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. They found out.

Prabhupada: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Krsna and gopis for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiya.

Tamala Krsna: That's the meaning of sahajiya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: So that's on their minds.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: They're frustrated.

Prabhupada: We are restricting, "No illicit sex." They will put that "Here is illicit sex between the gopis and Krsna."

Tamala Krsna: "So we can also do it."

Prabhupada: Yes. That is their...

Tamala Krsna: Breaking the principles.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: Because sadhana-bhakti is a gradual process, they immediately want the highest perfection quickly.

Prabhupada: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rasa-lila, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rasa-lila is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So "It is supported, our... Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. "And become a gopi."

Ramesvara: At the end of his life, Ajamila...

Prabhupada: It is very good to aspire to become high-court judge, but how you can become high-court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high-court judge.

Ramesvara: They say Ajamila had no qualification, and he just chanted.

Prabhupada: Rascal. Ajamila had no qualification. Therefore they should have no qualification.

Ramesvara: They say...

Prabhupada: They say. Now you accept them as authority, "They say." What is they? What they are?

Ramesvara: Ajamila's qualification was he thought of Krsna at the time of death.

Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot think.

Ramesvara: They want to think of the gopis at the time of death.

Tamala Krsna: Then practice.

Prabhupada: What they will think at the death, why you are conjecturing now? Their habits are rascal, they're making pregnant, illicit sex. What they will think? Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered.

Tamala Krsna: No, we're not going to do that.

Prabhupada: Or they should be separated. Otherwise, it will be bad example and all restrictions will be broken.

Tamala Krsna: If they don't change their mentality, then they should live separately, do their own Society.

Prabhupada: And they'll do that. [japa] That sahajiya tendency is very easy to take up.

Hari-sauri: It seems like it's an inherent thing in...

Prabhupada: Thinking of Radha-Krsna lila, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage.

Tamala Krsna: I could never understand, Srila Prabhupada, why..., I was always wondering why, in all of your books, you're always blasting so much time on the sahajiyas, and I was not... Now I see why, because the tendency is so easy. I could never... I'd always think, "Why is Prabhupada saying so much? Because they're only in India."

Ramesvara: You're thinking that this is a small group.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, in India. But now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why Prabhupada was stressing.

Ramesvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiya tendency.

Tamala Krsna: That's why it's in every book Prabhupada speaks about it, without fail.

Prabhupada: Anyway, keep your movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure.

Tamala Krsna: I always remember that you said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is natural.

Tamala Krsna: Natural. Of course we don't want to lose men, but it's natural.

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, when the devotee is in the original relationship with Krsna, his siddha-deha, why is it that he sometimes changes his original rasa with Krsna?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Ramesvara: Each one of us has an original relationship with Krsna-some as plant, some as tree, some as cow, some as cowherd boy. So if that is re-established, why should the devotee desire to change it?

Prabhupada: Well, that is spiritual kingdom. You can change if you like.

Tamala Krsna: It is not static, Prabhupada once explained. Love is not static.

Prabhupada: Generally, it is not changed. Just like Mother Yasoda, she's mother all the time, eternally.

Tamala Krsna: This question came in Bombay two or three years ago. Prabhupada said that it is not static. You can have [idistinct].

Hari-sauri: I always understood before that the rasa was fixed, but that within that rasa one may take different..., one may take a different line.

Prabhupada: That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now?

Ramesvara: That's the point.

Prabhupada: A patient is thinking, "How shall I dance when I become healthy?" First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that.

Tamala Krsna: That's a good example.

Prabhupada: You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. "When I will get rich, how I shall treat... I shall... Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this," [laughter] and as soon as he kicked on the earthen pots, all broken. Then he, "Oh, then my... All prospects have gone." You know this story?

Tamala Krsna: What was in the pot?

Prabhupada: That... A potter, potter boy, he had got some earthen pots, selling. So he was dreaming that "By selling this earthen pot, I'll make so much profit. Then I shall purchase another batch, I shall make profit. In this way, I shall be millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife must be very obedient. Otherwise I shall kick." So in this way, he kicked over the pots [laughs] and all of them broken.

Ramesvara: And in the end, nothing.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Hari-sauri: So by his dreaming he, he...

Prabhupada: Yes, first of all be rich man, then do all things, how you shall kick your wife. This is going on. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that "My Guru Maharaja found Me rascal number one; therefore he ordered, 'You cannot study Vedanta. You chant Hare Krsna.' " They will not read this portion. That Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He posed Himself as a rascal.

Tamala Krsna: But they prefer to read about all of the ecstatic symptoms on Caitanya Mahaprabhu's body

Prabhupada: That's all right. That... Be first of all bona fide. That is good ambition. But how this good ambition can fulfill when you are a potter, poor man? Actually be rich, and then kick your wife. And without being rich, if you think all this nonsense, you're spoiling time. [japa]

Tamala Krsna: Sprinklers are on today.

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we're talking so much about the business of how to spread Krsna consciousness, but we're not talking enough about Krsna's pastimes, krsna-katha, they say. So that's another reason why they want to read all these pastimes.

Prabhupada: Then let them read. But why they are making pregnant and abortion? What kind of krsna-katha? The krsna-katha test is as soon as he'll get the taste, he'll lose this taste. That is the... What is this nonsense?

Ramesvara: Won't it purify them? That's what they say, "It will purify me."

Prabhupada: What you are purified? You have become a, what is called, putrefied, not purified.

[on walk]

Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada.

Ramesvara: You can become purified, and sometimes you can increase your...

Prabhupada: No, no. You can read. Be purified. You can read. But where is your purification?

Tamala Krsna: Putrefaction.

Pusta Krsna: We have to go around this water, Srila Prabhupada. [sprinklers are on]

Prabhupada: The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. [break] In 1935, our Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he went to Radha-kunda for Karttika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upanisads. So first of all, these babajis, they were coming. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come at Radha-kunda. He's giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upanisads, they stopped coming. They saw: "They are jnanis, they are not bhaktas."

Tamala Krsna: What did they want to hear? Dasama-skandha?

Prabhupada: Like that. So Prabhupada condemned them, that "They are not living in Radha-kunda. They're living in Naraka-kunda." I heard it. "They're living in Naraka-kunda."

Tamala Krsna: So our men who go to Radha-kunda and live there...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: They're risking living in Naraka.

Tamala Krsna: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Radha-kunda. Do not try to jump over like a monkey. [break]

Radha-vallabha: The scientists have found some more brass pottery. So now they say that man first started using brass around thirty-five hundred years ago. They've announced this to the world.

Prabhupada: Now they're not using?

Ramesvara: That's the origin.

Radha-vallabha: No, they say that thirty-five hundred years ago is when man first started using brass. They've announced this to the world.

Pusta Krsna: They invented brass.

Prabhupada: What we have to take lesson from this, huh?

Tamala Krsna: They're still using it now. So that mean man is still...

Ramesvara: They are convinced that man used to live in caves, and just recently he has been civilized.

Prabhupada: So what is the effect of civilization? When they used to live in cave, they were hunting animals and eating. So you are doing the same thing. What civilization?

Hari-sauri: Except they're doing it on a bigger scale now.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Pusta Krsna: More organized. You mentioned that it would not be possible for them to find the remains of the bodies of the Aryans because they would burn their bodies.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: So they only find the bodies of the lower class.

Tamala Krsna: Similarly, they only find the remains of the cave dwellers.

Mahendra: Also you've said that now they're headed back to caves. By the end of Kali-yuga many will live in caves to hide.

Tamala Krsna: Even now there are people living in caves.

Hari-sauri: They were living in caves then, and now they are living in pigeon holes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: There was another article in the magazine that was talking about rats in India. This article was talking about rats in India.

Prabhupada: Rats?

Radha-vallabha: Yes, they said how there's a big problem. There's too many rats. And it says that... And at the end of the article they made a sly comment about how many people considered the rats sacred. So this is a big problem. Whenever they make some report about India, they always make some joke about how the people will think the animals are sacred and how this is actually the real problem.

Prabhupada: So why do they not go and eat the rats? Then why these people do not go there and eat the sacred rats? Huh? Please go there and eat the sacred rats. [laughter] Because you are expert in eating animal, so go and eat the sacred rats-India is a good field-and clear their problems. You write one article and send them. It is a good opportunity for the animal eaters to go to India and eat the rats, sacred rats, and solve their problems. [laughter]

Mahendra: It won't even cost anything.

Prabhupada: Yes, free. They can take them free.

Rsabhadeva: They said one of the main reasons is because they are killing the snakes for the skin, the snakes that feed on the rats. They kill so many snakes to get the skin, therefore there's no way to control the rat population.

Prabhupada: That's all right. It is saved for you. Go and take it.

Mahendra: They wear the snakes and eat the rats.

Prabhupada: Snake will die of starvation. It is better. You go and eat.

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, in Egypt, they have been able to dig underneath the ground and find the remains of ancient cities. So this is proof of the ancient civilization of Egypt. But they have not found ancient ruins of the cities of Dvaraka or Hastinapura. They do not have such...

Radha-vallabha: There are ruins in Dvaraka.

Ramesvara: So they do not accept that the ancient civilization of India is old, very old.

Tamala Krsna: I read one anthropology book, and it said that about 3,500 years ago in India people were only living in all the caves, and they were simply using stones and things like that, very primitive tools. No knowledge at all.

Mahendra: But they cannot explain how it was that these people evolved, these cavemen evolved such a language as Sanskrit, which not even the greatest scholars today can even begin to comprehend. It is a very great language.

Prabhupada: That is their grudge. When they see such exalted literature, they are envious.

Tamala Krsna: [aside:] Why don't we cut over?

Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, can we walk over this way? There's no water.

Prabhupada: It was all manufactured by the Britishers. To keep their faith with other nations, they were protesting that "Why you are keeping India dependent?" So they were pleading that "We are making India civilized." That was their propaganda.

Ramesvara: "The white man's burden," they called it.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

[pause]

Tamala Krsna: [referring to the sprinklers] Prabhupada, wherever you walk, the water turns off.

Candanacarya: The entire Golden Gate park was cultivated by men.

Radha-vallabha: Instead of planting grass by the roads, they are now putting green rocks. They figure it looks the same, and it saves money.

Kirtiraja: They put plastic grass. They are also planting plastic grass in the middle of the road.

Hrdayananda: No opulence.

Radha-vallabha: In Russia now they have declared one..., that it is a big crisis. Because their grains did not grow properly, they are not able to produce as much meat, so now one day a week everyone is forced to eat fish. So they are lamenting. They were describing how..., about the good old days were when you could go and buy an entire carcass. [break]

Candanacarya: ...country, build cities and then spend billions of dollars to make the city look like the country.

Prabhupada: Carvita-carvananam. [SB 7.5.30] Chewing the chewed, again and again. This is their position. [japa] [break]

Ramesvara: On the calendar it says it is Bhima-ekadasi.

Prabhupada: Bhima-ekadasi, yes.

Ramesvara: So I've been told that if one fasts on Bhima-ekadasi, that it is like fasting on all the ekadasis. Is that true?

Prabhupada: Yes. Ekadasi is meant for fasting, either Bhima or Arjuna. [chuckles] But we cannot fast, therefore we have to take little fruits and... Otherwise, ekadasi means fasting.

Tamala Krsna: If it is possible, should we go without eating at all?

Prabhupada: Yes. But don't lie down and sleep.

Pusta Krsna: As long as it doesn't affect one's service, one can fast all day.

Mahendra: Eating maha-prasadam is also fasting.

Prabhupada: Who says?

Mahendra: You said that to Paramahamsa Swami once.

Prabhupada: And you heard from Paramahamsa.

Mahendra: No, I was in the room. It was when he was trying to observe Caturmasya.

Prabhupada: I never said that.

Mahendra: Oh, okay. I must have heard wrong.

Prabhupada: If there is service and, on my fasting, service will be stopped, then I can take. First consideration-service. Now if somebody feels weak, he can take maha-prasada, render service.

Ramesvara: That priest that has now become your disciple, he's joining Satsvarupa Maharaja's party. He's very interested, and Satsvarupa Maharaja has said he would like him to come to travel together and study.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Nalinikanta: In the West, people are generally unfamiliar, I think, with the philosophy of Saṅkara, yet in your books you devote so much argument to defeating Mayavada philosophy. I was wondering if it is within every conditioned soul's heart to be an impersonalist. Is it... Does every conditioned soul have the propensity for impersonalism?

Prabhupada: No, they cannot understand God; therefore it is impersonalism. It is due to their poor fund of knowledge. So most people are in poor fund of knowledge.

Hari-sauri: As soon as one forgets Krsna, he's impersonal.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahendra: Just like many of us, Srila Prabhupada, we were thinking, that...

Prabhupada: They cannot think that a person, how he can produce a sky? That is beyond their conception. This is their illusion. They say God is all-powerful, but He cannot produce a sky. This is their defect of knowledge. If God is all-powerful, why He cannot produce a sky? That they cannot think. Yes, He's all-powerful; cannot produce a sky. Their intellect. Poor intellect.

Mahendra: Many of us were also thinking God to be impersonal before we met you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahendra: We were not attached to that conception. When you explained the personal nature of God and the many arguments in favor, gradually we were convinced. But then there are those also who are attached to that conception, like in the Bhagavad-gita it says those who are attached to that conception...

Prabhupada: No, we can see every day the impersonal feature of the sun-the sunlight, the sunshine. But which is important: the sunshine is important or the sun is important? Daily we see. The sunshine is spread all over the universe, very big. But what is the use of this big if there is no sun globe?

Tamala Krsna: Look at these boxes here. These are from different churches and religious institutions. They put their pamphlets for people to take.

[break] [in car]

Ramesvara: ...that in Krsna consciousness fasting and feasting is the same.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Could you explain that?

Prabhupada: Fasting and feasting is the same?

Ramesvara: That what I..., they told me.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is in Krsna consciousness, for Krsna. For Krsna, you fast or feast, the same thing. Better fast. [laughter] [break]

Ramesvara: ...by the devotees is that in the spiritual world every day is feasting.

Prabhupada: And there is no fasting. Fasting is recommended when a man is diseased. When he's in health, there is feasting. So spiritual world means health. Why there should be fasting?

Hari-sauri: And our disease is uncontrolled senses.

Prabhupada: There is no sense agitation.

Hari-sauri: No, for us though, conditioned.

Prabhupada: Yes, conditioned. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam [Siksastaka 7].

[break]

Ramesvara: In Caitanya-caritamrta you wrote that the kalpa-vrksa trees, they move; they are not stationary.

Prabhupada: They are spiritual.

Ramesvara: Is this true for the plants and flowers?

Prabhupada: Everything. Everything. They are spiritual, absolute. There is no condition. Because it is tree, it cannot move, that is condition.

Ramesvara: No condition. In the spiritual world, can the trees and plants communicate? Here they have no means of communication, no talking.

Prabhupada: Everything is possible.

Ramesvara: The animals can also understand and communicate.

Prabhupada: You can milk the cows as many times as you like, and as much as you like.

Ramesvara: And talk with them.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is no limit. That is spiritual world.

Hari-sauri: One thing that has always confused a lot of devotees is how is it possible to eat something in the spiritual world when that..., the thing that you're eating is also spiritual?

Prabhupada: There is no need of eating, but if they like, they can eat, enjoy.

Ramesvara: The taste, the flavor.

Hari-sauri: But what happens to the thing that they're eating?

Prabhupada: [laughs] Then you will see when you go there.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: This is our disease. When we're talking of spiritual world, we are bringing material thoughts. To bring coal in Sheffield. What is called? Sheffield? There are many coal mines?

Hari-sauri: To bring coals to Newcastle.

Prabhupada: Yes, like that. Why should you bring your material ideas to the spiritual world? There is no relativity. Everything absolute.

Ramesvara: There is no day or night. Everything is self-illuminating.

Prabhupada: There is, but there is no need.

[pause]

Prabhupada: What is this penguin? No? Penguin?

Hari-sauri: It's a coffee shop.

Prabhupada: Literature?

Ramesvara: It's a bird found in the South Pole, penguin. Lives in the south, bottom of the earth.

Prabhupada: Bottom of the...?

Ramesvara: It's called Antarctica. Are there seasonal changes, Srila Prabhupada? Rain and different seasonal...?

Prabhupada: Everything is there, but there is no necessity. [hums]

[pause] [break]

Prabhupada: ...to the USA, many sahajiyas, they requested me, "Sir, why you are going? You are in Vrndavana. Continue your bhajana. What is the use of preaching?"

Ramesvara: What is the use of preaching?

Prabhupada: Preaching. They advised me like that.

Ramesvara: They don't believe in Lord Caitanya, these sahajiyas in Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: Mostly. They have no knowledge. Material. Prakrta-sahajiya. Their real name is prakrta. Their thoughts are on this material platform. Just as they are preferring this conjugal love, because here the sex is prominent. They are thinking that is the highest stage. What is the lowest stage here, they're taking that as the highest stage. In the... Of course, in the spiritual world there is such thing, but as Krsna has many other lilas, so why they are not attracted to other lilas?

Ramesvara: They don't want to be limited. They think that Krsna is the krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So why...

Prabhupada: That is good. That is always true, but Krsna says,

How you have understood Krsna? Krsna says, "Out of many millions of people, one becomes siddha, and out of many millions of siddhas, hardly one can understand Me." So how you have understood Krsna so easily, within two years? What you have understood Krsna, that is materially understood. You do not know what is Krsna. That is prakrta-sahajiya: "Oh, we have understood. Krsna was a playboy, dancing with His girls. Bas, we have understood. Now we shall..."

Ramesvara: "If I follow the regulative principles and go on hearing about rasa-lila, then I'll be purified."

Prabhupada: You say that. In the sastra does not say. Sastra says that after you have studied all the nine cantos of Bhagavatam, then enter into the tenth. Sahajiya means they take very easily: "I am... Everything is all right. Now I am perfect." That is sahajiya. Krsna says, "To understand Me, it will take millions of years." And they understand Krsna immediately. That is their... That is called prakrta-sahajiya.

Ramesvara: Krsna's incarnation is to attract the living entities to Krsna. So let me read about rasa-lila, because I'm feeling some attraction.

Prabhupada: Then why not kuruksetra-lila? What...? Kuruksetra-lila... Krsna's lila is the same, absolute. You are attracted to rasa-lila means you have got sex desire. That's all. And actually... What you said, that one girl?

Ramesvara: He said one girl, she was..., killed her baby.

Tamala Krsna: Abortion. In Europe.

Prabhupada: This is their business.

Tamala Krsna: And now she's the leader here. Now she's the leader of the women's group of these sahajiya parties.

Ramesvara: "I may still have sex desire, but this will purify me."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. This will purify. You are not purified.

Tamala Krsna: Putrefied.

Prabhupada: That is... The..., this rasa-lila is for the person who is completely purified. What...? When one is impure, he should not think of. That is stated in the Bhagavatam.

Ramesvara: In this they have misunderstood your Krsna book.

Prabhupada: They must have misunderstood. They are all rascals.

Tamala Krsna: They have not even read carefully the First Canto Bhagavatam and Second. Prabhupada says in Second Canto, "Look at the lotus feet of the Lord."

Hari-sauri: I was thinking yesterday that must be one of the problems, that these people have not read your earlier books, the earlier cantos of the Bhagavatam. Because it says..., you express quite clearly to avoid the...

Tamala Krsna: We were lucky, because when we joined all that we had were your Bhagavatams from India, those original Bhagavatams. [break]

Prabhupada: ...otherwise...

Tamala Krsna: Otherwise, what shall we do?

Prabhupada: Otherwise, they are finished.

Ramesvara: We should try to save them.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. There are so many devotees involved-over a hundred.

Ramesvara: I can't understand who they are.

Tamala Krsna: Fifty of them in Los Angeles.

Ramesvara: Do you know? Who knows the names?

Tamala Krsna: Pradyumna. Pradyumna is carrying out a single-handed investigation.

Ramesvara: Oh, good.

Tamala Krsna: Pradyumna has become an investigator. He goes around everywhere [laughs] investigating the sahajiyas. I hope he doesn't become won over.

Prabhupada: He was.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I know, that's why he's doing it. He was once like that.

Prabhupada: He was smarta.

Ramesvara: Smarta. Pandita. You used to call him pandita.

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes Prabhupada would tell him he was a smarta.

Ramesvara: He's always carrying an armful of books.

Prabhupada: Smarta is also counted amongst the sahajiyas.

Tamala Krsna: He was really... That's another problem, Prabhupada. All of these boys that take part in this Sanskrit-Bengali translation department, they all become like this, because they read these other books. As soon as they learn Bengali and Sanskrit, they start reading so many books.

Prabhupada: Aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, saṅi sahajiya, sakhibheki, smarta, jata-gosani. They are all counted in one group.

Tamala Krsna: One thing I've noticed, Srila Prabhupada, and I see it as a direct link, that most of these people who get involved like this, they're not engaged in active preaching work, and because of it, their mind has time to create these fantasies and get attracted. Someone who's engaged in forcefully preaching...

Ramesvara: He has to be more practical.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Practical and purified by the activity. Have you noticed that? That these people who are engaged, they're all in the Press, or all day writing, or something like this.

Ramesvara: Sometimes sitting and painting.

Tamala Krsna: Sitting and painting. The boy who's going out every day, trying to think of how to get the books out, he won't be... [conversation in background] You have come to the hellish planets, Srila Prabhupada, to deliver us. That's all there is. It's amazing enough you have made such a gigantic movement, but the fact that you have made it with such mlecchas as us is what is most astounding. It's like building a skyscraper with swabs and straw. Building a big skyscraper with straw and mud.

Ramesvara: In the Fifth Canto you've quoted from Bhaktivinoda Thakura that the most sacred place in the whole universe is Sri Mayapur-dhama.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: In all the universe.

Tamala Krsna: In each universe there is a Vrndavana and a Mayapur. That means in each universe there's a planet earth like this planet?

Prabhupada: Yes. There are so many planets. Each universe full of planets. Kotisu vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam [Bs 5.40]. There are millions of planets, and each planet there are millions of planets, er, millions of universes, each planet. Kotisu vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam. [end]