Audio

[much interference on tape, rendering sections inaudible]

Prabhupada: ...do not accept that these trees and plants, they have got life? Do they accept or not?

Hari-sauri: Yes. They say they've recorded different types of living symptoms in plants and whatever. They see how plants react to different stimulus. And there was experiments that they actually react out of fear, they show symptoms of fear.

Prabhupada: So, they have soul or not?

Hari-sauri: Well, they say that the human beings haven't got a soul, so what to speak of the animals and the plants.

Prabhupada: What do they mean by soul?

Hari-sauri: [laughs] They don't mean anything. They think it's all just chemical reaction. But nowadays they're doing more research into things like telepathy and what they call ESP, extra-sensory perception. Rather than just put it down to basic chemical reactions, they're thinking that there's something on a more subtle platform.

Prabhupada: What is that platform?

Hari-sauri: It's what they call ESP, extra-sensory perception, something that you can't see but it's still there, the influence of the mind over material objects.

Pusta Krsna: They say that material objects are just like automobiles, dead, but they can't move without the influence of the spirit soul. So the human being or the trees... [break] ...and the jivas were seeing that the body is moving, so many things are taking place. The point is that in the universe, wind is blowing, the ocean is moving...

Prabhupada: There is God. You are a small soul, and He is big soul, Supersoul. Similarly, as the soul is [indistinct]. If there is no soul, there is no pregnancy. Simply matter discharge is not pregnancy. There must be soul. Similarly, this material combination, huge material combination, [indistinct]. Without Garbhodakasayi Visnu, there is no actual action, reaction.

Hari-sauri: Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the universe.

Prabhupada: Seas and oceans are in each planet, and in the Universal Ocean is Garbho ocean. Garbhodakasayi.

[break] ...ocean, many planets and go deep down.

Pusta Krsna: Where? Underneath the water?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: You said that the different living entities in lower forms of life, they've attained those lower forms of life due to their work in the human form?

Prabhupada: Yes. A criminal is freed, but if he again commits criminal..., criminality, then again he's put into the jail. Like that. Human form of life is freedom, now make your choice. But if you misuse it, then again go. Mam aprapya nivartante mrtyuh samsara vartmani [Bg 9.3].

[break] go home back to Godhead. But if he does not take the chance, and misuse it, like animals, then again he goes down. The process is to go back to home, back to Godhead, eternal life, blissful life. And other process is the cycle of birth and death in different species of life. So this human form of life is to make choice whether he wants to continue the cycle of birth and death in different species of life, or he wants to go back to home, back to Godhead. [break] ...mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam [Bg 9.25].

If he's Krsna conscious then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Again… species of life, according to karma, first they're going to be fish. From fish, by nature's way, fish to the plants, then insect. In this way... Then birds, then beasts, again human being. Again another chance. In this way they are... Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg 7.19]. Similarly, after many, many births, when he comes to his senses, that "I have enjoyed very much. Now let me go back home..." Vasudevah sarvam iti... . Mam prapadyante. [Bg 7.14]: "Krsna save me, take me." Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. Such mahatma, great soul, who has accepted that Krsna is everything, that is very, very rarely found. Manusyanam sahasresu [Bg 7.3]. After many, many millions.

Devotee (1): When one takes to spiritual life, is it the result of material exhaustion, or is it simply the guru's mercy on him, and nothing else?

Prabhupada: Two ways. One is called sadhana-siddhi [perfection attained by following the regulative principles]; one is called krpa-siddhi. [perfection attained by the direct mercy of the Supreme Lord or His pure devotee] What is your question?

Devotee (1): If when one comes to spiritual life, is he coming because of material exhaustion, so much pain in the material world, so therefore he's searching?

Prabhupada: Voluntary.

Devotee (1): Voluntary.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): Ah.

Prabhupada: When one is actually in sense, then he comes to... "So I have enjoyed. Now no, I don't want. Now I want Krsna." That is voluntary.

Devotee (1): But is it the guru? Does the guru give him that sense?

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru is traveling all over the world, "Take this sense." If one is fortunate he can take.

Sukadeva: Those persons who are atheistic, they say that God is created out of a necessity, that people have a necessity to have their father image, so therefore they create religion. This is their basic philosophy, that man creates his own religion. He creates it out of necessity. He needs a father image, so therefore he creates the idea of God.

Prabhupada: Created? What is that?

Sukadeva: No. They feel that we have created. Man has created the idea of God out of necessity.

Devotee (2): It's insecurity. He feels that the atheists are saying that man needs God, although there is no God. They are insecure in this world.

Prabhupada: What is God?

Sukadeva: They feel basically that it's an idea. God is an idea.

Prabhupada: Why it is idea? Explain. What for this idea? Why this idea is necessary?

Pusta Krsna: Basically I think because in the Western countries there's no conception of God.

Prabhupada: No... They.... Those who have no conception, that is another thing. But those who talk of God, that there is God or there is no God, what is the conception of God? That is... Why do they say there is no God? Why do they say there is God? That is my question. Somebody accept there is God; somebody does not accept. So, what are the two causes?

Hari-sauri: The basic principle is that God is there, so you either accept or reject Him.

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughs] One is doubtful or one is convinced. The God is there. One is doubtful, he says, "There is no God." My question is why the question of God is there?

Pusta Krsna: General consensus is that when one is in need of God, then they accept God. They don't think that out of knowledge...

Prabhupada: Therefore I am asking what is the conception? Why they need, why they do not need? First of all, just like food. There is some idea that "Food is like this." Then the question of food. If there is no need of food, then why is this food question?

Sukadeva: Just like the child wants to be protected by the parent, they're thinking that..., therefore people are feeling that they want to be protected by God.

Prabhupada: So there is necessity of God.

Sukadeva: The child is always seeking protection from the parent.

Prabhupada: Just like the child, there is necessity of the parents, and parent is there. Similarly, if you feel necessity of God, God is there. Feeling the necessity of parent, the parents are there. Similarly, if you feel necessity of God, then God is there.

Sukadeva: They say that because people are feeling this necessity, it is a crutch.

Prabhupada: No, no. Necessity means there is. Otherwise why necessity? When you feel hungry, the necessity of food, food is there. Feel necessity of light, the sun is there.

Sukadeva: Do you mean, Srila Prabhupada, that in order to conceive of something, a thing must exist?

Prabhupada: There is no "conceive." Necessity. You require it. Just like when you're hungry you require food. Food is there. The eyes want to see; therefore the object of seeing is there. The hand wants to touch, so the object of touching is there. The nose wants to smell: the object of smell is there. So as soon as you feel necessity, the thing is there.

Hari-sauri: And it's there even if you don't feel the necessity.

Prabhupada: Hah?

Hari-sauri: It's there even if you don't feel the necessity.

Prabhupada: That is another position. First of all, as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Sukadeva: They say that necessity should not be God, but that it should be transferred to man.

Prabhupada: I am not talking of God. I say as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Gopavrndapala: That necessity is our mistake. That is our insecurity.

Prabhupada: So... [break] ...you are in mistake, then you are rascal, that's all. Mistake is committed by rascal. So you are rascal. If you commit mistake, then you are a rascal. Then don't talk. Stop talking. [laughter] Who is going to hear a rascal? No sane man will hear.

[break] ...feeling hungry, there is no necessity of food? Who is that rascal that will say, "No, there is no necessity of food"? He's feeling hungry, he wants to eat something, and if he says, "No, there is no necessity of food," then is he not rascal? And if you say, "Now we are feeling the necessity of food, but that is my mistake," is that answer?

Sukadeva: They're feeling that some people have the necessity for God, but actually...

Prabhupada: Why? That is the question. Why some people have? That means some people intelligent, some people rascals. That's all. This is answer.

Sukadeva: The question is, why some people are feeling a necessity for God? That is the question they ask.

Prabhupada: That is the difference between rascal and intelligent. Just like in Hawaii island, when the rascals were living, they did not feel the necessity of skyscraper. When intelligent Americans came, they feel the necessity. That is the difference. [laughter] Is that all right?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: "Necessity is the mother of invention." That is an English proverb. Is it not? So unless you feel necessity, you are rascal.

Hari-sauri: Well, taking that the other way...

Prabhupada: Dull matter. Dull matter, it has no necessity. It is dull matter. And as soon as you have got life, there is necessity. Without feeling of necessity means dullness. Just like these Hawaiians, original inhabitants, they did not feel the necessity of the skyscraper, motorcar or the sea. But when it was inhabited by the Americans, they felt necessity. That is the difference between advanced and not advanced.

Pusta Krsna: Can one say that necessity for eating, sleeping, mating and defending is animal life, and the necessity for God is advanced life?

Prabhupada: Certainly. Necessity means more you become advanced, the more necessity. Necessity mother of invention. Advancement, they are manufacturing so many things. There is no necessity of car, but people are advanced, they are inventing: "Now comfortably I shall tour." So necessity means advanced life. No necessity means dull life. That's all.

Sukadeva: The atheists feel that they've put the necessity on the wrong object.

Prabhupada: That means they're rascals. If there is no necessity, that means dull life, dull brain. The madman will think there is no necessity of clothing: "I can remain naked." And actually he remains. So he's a madman. And a sensible man, he'll require dress, nice dress, first-class dress. So this is the difference between intelligent and dull. Dull has no necessity. Intelligent has necessity.

Devotee (2): He has necessity for God.

Prabhupada: Yes. ... Gita He said manusyanam sahasresu [Bg 7.3]. Out of millions and millions people, one has the necessity for Krsna. [break] Material scientists, they are creating necessities, television, and they have become advanced. What is the use of television? There is no use. But this is advanced civilization.

Hari-sauri: In relative terms.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless there is necessity, what is the advancement? There is dull matter. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg 7.5]. Apareyam. The dull matter is inferior energy. And the other prakrti, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param, jiva-bhutam maha-baho, the living entities, they have got necessities. Dull matter, there are no necessities. The more one is dull, his necessities are less. And those who are advanced, his necessities begin.

Hari-sauri: Well, they use... They argue that, say like in India, where there's no great material development...

Prabhupada: Then we shall judge the quality of necessity. That is another thing. First of all necessities, then quality.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: First of all we have to understand that one who has no necessity, he's in the lowest status. One who has got necessity, he is in the higher status.

Hari-sauri: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Then higher, higher, higher, higher-where's the higher status? When you necessitate Krsna.

Hari-sauri: Yeah. [break]

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu: sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me [Cc Antya 20.39]. That necessity, that without Govinda I'm feeling everything vacant. That is necessity. That necessity is final.

Pusta Krsna: Is this the anna-maya, prana-maya, mano-maya, like that?

Prabhupada: There are so many stages. But here is the highest status: govinda-virahena me. Yugayitam nimesena. "For want of Govinda, I am thinking one moment as twelve years." Yugayitam nimesena caksusa pravrsayitam. "I'm crying like torrents of rain from my eyes." This is the highest necessity. This is also necessity. Yugayitam nimesena caksusa pravr..., sunyayitam jagat sarvam. "I don't see anything. Everything is vacant." And that we have experience. If somebody whom you love very much, he dies, you think, "I don't want anything. World is vacant." I've no necessity but Krsna. This is also necessity. So we have to see first of all necessity, then quality of necessity. This is knowledge. There is no necessity, means dull matter. Similarly, when there is no necessity of God, one is in the lowest stage of life, naradhama, animals, less than animal, naradhama, at least, lowest of mankind. If he does not feel the necessity of God, that means lowest of the mankind. Necessity of Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... Yugayitam nimesena caksusa pravrsay... A Vaisnava says that "I have no more necessity." But he has no more necessity of this false necessities, material world.

Hari-sauri: Anarthas.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hari-sauri: Anarthas.

Prabhupada: Anartha. [break] ...they stop here. No more this material necessities. But he does not know that he cannot live without necessities. That they do not know. They simply beget these false necessities. Just like disease. I do not want disease, but that does not mean I do not want health. [laughter] So these rascals, they are thinking that "We do not want anymore this material world. Brahma satyam jagan mitya." But Vaisnava says, "No, you must have the real thing, then you can cease from this unreal necessities." Otherwise after living for some time in brahma satya, then you'll come, "Oh, it is useless. I don't enjoy. Let me go again to open hospital, school, engage in something. What is this? No work." That he cannot do. Aruhya krcchena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32].

We are living entities. We require engagement, necessities. So give up necessities means these rascal necessities and hankering for. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He's sannyasi. He has no necessity. Why He's crying for Govinda? He has given up the whole world, sannyasi. And why He's crying for Govinda? That is real necessity. Govinda-virahena me. Govinda necessity. Govinda necessity is Govinda is not alone. There again life, again Vrndavana, again gopis, again dancing, again eating, again everything. That necessity.

Sukadeva: As a necessity, this is a symptom of weakness...

Prabhupada: Rascal, it is weakness..., you are already necessity of so many things. Make all the necessities zero. At last we at least feel necessity of a woman. [laughing] That you cannot avoid. That's all. And then you'll be punished with shoes. [laughing] When you'll become a servant of woman, then you, "No, what is the necessity?" Become thief, you'll become rascal, rogue, you'll be beaten by shoes, and everything is gone. Now these are your necessities. The hippies, they have left no necessities, but the woman is there. [laughter] That necessity is there. Nature is so powerful you'll have to feel this necessity, and with this necessity you'll require so many necessities. Ato grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair janasya moho 'yam aham [SB 5.5.8] They're talking like madmen. What the madman does not talk, and what the goat does not eat? [laughing] Means rascals only.

Hari-sauri: It boils down to this question of independence.

Prabhupada: Hah?

Hari-sauri: They all want to be independent, but there's no chance. [break]

Sukadeva: ...in the kingdom of God, then he can become independent.

Prabhupada: The idea of God is not for everyone. Only for the brahmanas. Those who are brahmanas, for them, brahma-janati iti brahmana. Our process is to give them chance to hear. Then he'll get gradually idea of God, not immediate. In the beginning let him eat prasadam and chant Hare Krsna. That's all. [break] "My dear friend, please come. Chant with us, dance with us, and take prasadam." There will be no... [break] [end]