Audio

Kesavalal Trivedi: ...mission, and they only think that...

Prabhupada: So we shall return now?

Devotee: Yeah.

Kesavalal Trivedi: [break] ...my weekly visits, that Jyoti Swami showed me that incident at Japan, and he asked me, "Have you seen...?"

Prabhupada: Dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. Dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. Maksika bhramara icchanti... Maksika, these ordinary flies, they find out where is sore, and the bhramara, he finds out where is honey. Similarly, dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. And the Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing preaching all over the world-that has not come to his eyes. He has come to the Japanese incident. He has come.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes, I told him there might be some, in a big organization, such a...

Prabhupada: No, why did you not say, "You are such a pamara that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing"?

Kesavalal Trivedi: That I told him. For that he began to say, "No, no, you read my literature. You'll be... We don't have any envy." I took that also with me, and he gave me... Next time, when I went, after reading, I said, "How many mistakes are there? Not even a single dot is mistake in other literature, and still you say this literature? And what is new therein? Nothing I find new."

Prabhupada: Just try to understand that whatever it may be, what is the mentality of these rascals, that "The good things do not come to your notice"? If something is bad, "Oh, here is..." You see. Pamaraḥ dosam icchanti gunam icchanti panḍitaḥ. Saj-jana gunam icchanti dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. That means they are not even a Vaisnava. You see? Vaisnava means paramo nirmatsaranam [SB 1.1.2]. Even one has got some fault, a Vaisnava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaisnava. Yes. Dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. The mission of Gau..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu is being preaching all over the... That does not come to their... Some Japanese paper has written something-it has come immediately. Dosam icchanti pamaraḥ. That fool, that he's a... Here is a pamara, and he's a lowest of the mankind. You can say that "Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?"

Kesavalal Trivedi: No, I did say in my own way, though I did not quote this, that "You are a pamara." I said, "Why..."

Prabhupada: Yes, you can say now, that "That day I forgot to say that you are a pamara. So I have come to say that you are a pamara." [laughter] "I forgot it. Excuse me, I forgot it. So you are pamara."

Kesavalal Trivedi: And it is so. As a matter of fact, it is so. And for that, the apology is, "No, no, I do realize that lot of work is being done about that."

Prabhupada: "But because I am pamara, I am finding out this fault." But you have now completed the sentence. "You know lot of things, but because you are pamara, therefore this thing has come prominent."

Kesavalal Trivedi: That is the proviso.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the proof that you are a pamara.

Kesavalal Trivedi: In my own way, if they challenge us and they are convincing, because to the audience it has to be said. One gosvami, when I said, "Well, this is a movement which I very much like, and like also to join," then he said that-because I am conducting Gita Bhavan founded by him-he said, "No, no, no, no. We as a matter of fact champion that cause. But afterwards, when we realized that it is not sampradayic, we have given it up. Therefore..." Then his conduct... The next day itself, he was not liking me. I have been doing this propaganda, this Gita pravacanam, for the past four years in the organization founded by him. But the very next day, that gosvami, Purusottama Gosvami of Vrndavana...

Yasodanandana: The envious one.

Prabhupada: He has got a camp here?

Yasodanandana: No, in Madras.

Kesavalal Trivedi: When he was here it happened. And that devotee's grace... Then I said, "What is the reason why you say?" "No, no. After all, we are qualified. Those mlecchas..."

Prabhupada: Nobody cares for you. You are so qualified that nobody cares for you.

Tamala Krsna: What did he say?

Yasodanandana: What did he say about mlecchas?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Yes, "Why mlecchas, how can they have, after all?" I said, "You yourself were a married person, and..."

Prabhupada: And you did not know that they are not... If they are mlecchas, then you are naraki. It is said, vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ naraki. Yes. Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ naraki [Padma Purana]. Anyone who considers in terms of caste a Vaisnava, he's a naraki. Naraki. Now, just like we go to the temple to see the Deities. Many millions of people are coming, but everyone knows that this is made of stone. But they are going to see the stone?

Kesavalal Trivedi: There is God in it.

Prabhupada: Huh? They are going to see the stone? So arcye visnau sila-dhiḥ. Anyone who thinks like that... Similarly, everyone knows that he is European, he is American, but because he is Vaisnava, one should not see like that, "mleccha." If he sees, then he's naraki.

Yasodanandana: It also proves that they have no faith in the holy name, because the hari-nama purifies everything.

Dhrstadyumna: [aside:] Did that svami show that article to Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. Aho bata svapaco gariyan [SB 3.33.7].

Hari-sauri: [aside:] Did he?

Dhrstadyumna: Maharaja, did you show that article to...?

Prabhupada: Why do you speak in the middle? You should hear. Yaj-jihvagre nama tubham, yan-nama sruti-matrena puman bhavati nirmalaḥ [SB 9.5.16]. And this rascals says the nama has no... See. We have to meet simply rascals all over. The so-called religionists, so-called svamis, so-called yogis, so-called politicians. You see? Simply we have to meet with all rascals.

Kesavalal Trivedi: No, he was reminding me of this Jyoti Maharaja showing that article on Krsna Jayanti day to the reading out to the entire audience. That was a rubbish.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, read to the whole audience.

Prabhupada: He was reading?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Ah, that is what he reminds me, because I said the incident which I had with him... On Krsna Jayanti day I did not go there. But on that day it was being read out. That was the silly part of it.

Tamala Krsna: Phew. Oh, wow.

Yasodanandana: So Prabhupada, these same people that...

Prabhupada: So what is the wrong there? What was the wrong?

Kesavalal Trivedi: No, he said that "This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned."

Prabhupada: But there is something in Japan which is banned. But what you have got in Japan?

Kesavalal Trivedi: Nothing.

Yasodanandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there.

Prabhupada: No, no, that's all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan?

Kesavalal Trivedi: There is something; there is nothing.

Prabhupada: So it is better. Just like one man said that "I have lost fifty thousand this year." His friend said, "You are still fortunate, because you had fifty thousand. But I have no fifty paisa even."

Kesavalal Trivedi: So there is something. Here nothing.

Prabhupada: "So you are so fortunate that you could suffer the loss of fifty thousand, but I have nothing to lose."

Kesavalal Trivedi: But that is for a discriminating man. Here it is an ignorance, asūya, envy. When Acyutananda Swami was addressing one man, said, "Why always have Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna? We can have Hare Christ also." Same answer as Your Holiness gave, he said, "Yes, yes, you can have it. Whoever says... We don't say no. It is also possible, but degree, matter of degree," as Your Holiness the other day put it. And some chapters and words were read out to the people. They were convinced that same sahkirtana is also sanctioned in the Bible.

Prabhupada: We have to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu or you? Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, kirtaniyaḥ sada hariḥ . So we have to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu. What is this building?

Tamala Krsna: This is a tuberculosis hospital.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Sravanananda: Prabhupada, they said that if Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted Krsna consciousness in the Western countries, why didn't He go there Himself? That's what they told us.

Prabhupada: So He left the credit for me. [laughter]

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Prabhupada: He loves His devotee more than Himself.

Harikesa: Why didn't Krsna kill everybody at the Battle of Kuruksetra?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasodanandana: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Krsna, by His simple desire He could kill. [laughter] He said therefore, bhavisyatvam. Prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama, sarvatra pracara haibe . He is leaving the task for somebody else.

Kesavalal Trivedi: [break] ...Caitanya-caritamrta, all these things, Swamiji has brought out very vividly. I have read only introduction and some portion only. But what Caitanya Mahaprabhu had ordered and ordained, is taking place. It is very vividly brought out.

[break] ...behind using the machinery, cars, airplanes, other things also, I think very convincing, Swamiji, when you say that they are meant only for Krsna's service, and if it is dedicated for that, it is used; otherwise it is misused, abused.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is bhakti. Just like you are walking; some money falls down from your pocket. Then you forgot. And somebody, "Oh, here is some money"; he takes it. And somebody takes it but offers to you. Who is the better man?

Kesavalal Trivedi: The person offering.

Prabhupada: Yes. That who takes it and puts in the pocket, he is a thief. And who takes it and offers to you, he is sincere friend.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Very fine analogy.

Prabhupada: So we can use everything only for Krsna. And therefore we are friend to Krsna, and you are thief. Krsna's property you are using unauthorizedly. Therefore you are a thief.

Devotee (3): The Christians say that God has given us certain things to enjoy, for instance. Just like I was talking to one Christian about eating meat, and he said, "Well, I enjoy eating meat."

Prabhupada: So the tiger will say he will enjoy you. Why do you protest against the tiger?

Acyutananda: In the Bible it says that everything was for the enjoyment of man. "Man is sovereign over the animals."

Prabhupada: Enjoyment does not mean that you kill him.

Tamala Krsna: Enjoy means protection. It means protecting, not eating.

Prabhupada: Go-raksya. You protect the cows and take the best food in the world, milk. That is enjoyment. Not foolishly to eat the cow.

Kesavalal Trivedi: I am reminded, Swamiji, of one day, the tussle between two Muslims. One happened to be a high-court judge and another, Faizul[?], he was always propagating that there should not be animal killed for human purposes and all those things. So on one platform I was the organizer. This high-court judge had been invited, and he began to say animal kingdom is meant for exploitation by human being. And this man flared up: "Where do you get in Koran? You are talking some nonsense, though you are high-court judge." It was a problem for me how to manage this high-court judge, presiding high-court judge, and this man who was a public man. Then he convinced that "Don't say all these things. Where are the passages? In Arabia this eating of goat was a necessity then. That is how it was. Otherwise human beings cannot exploit. You withdraw. Otherwise I will make this meeting a pandemonium." That is how he did it, and he succeeded. [laughter] He succeeded, very same. That Faizul[?] succeeded. And this idiot who was appointed by Rajajiv, high-court judge, he could not convince. I said, "Why do you talk about controversial subjects when you do not know?" But he was a presiding judge. He thought, "Whatever I talk is sense." That chief justice asked me, "How have I spoken?" So he wanted certificate from me afterwards. I said that "If that incarnation of [indistinct], if you should have left, that would have been better. You did very well with regard to your experiences about this movement and the..., at Chicago and all those things, but you dabbled with thinking that this is something original."

Yasodanandana: All of those speakers are very eager to give credit to Vivekananda, but he has not done anything. Prabhupada has done the most. They cannot see properly, all these speakers.

Tamala Krsna: No one knows Vivekananda in America.

Kesavalal Trivedi: Accha?

Tamala Krsna: No one has ever heard his name.

Indian man: Accha?

Prabhupada: No, it is not that no one has heard. But they are working for the last eighty-five years. What they have done?

Tamala Krsna: They only have about four or five temples, centers, in America. There is no Deity established in the temples, only some big...

Prabhupada: Now recently they have established one temple of Ramakrishna in Vrndavana. Nobody goes there. Nobody goes there.

Yasodanandana: It is simply a hospital.

Tamala Krsna: What is the Deity?

Kesavalal Trivedi: They have taken up social work, isn't it? Everybody. Swamiji, I am now reminded. A few weeks back I was invited to Raj Bhavan. I went as an invitee of an invitee. And that Madhuben Shah[?] began to wax eloquent because he happened to be the president of the world union. And they said, "Oh, we want to integrate the entire world, and the emotion and decoration[?], all those things." And they invited the views of Aryans, of twenty-five persons. All spoke. I did not speak. I kept quiet. Somebody said, "Here is a person who really knows." I said, "I am sick of this talk. And why should we have another organization for the same purpose?" Then I said, "But anyhow, I don't know. If Krsna..." Nowadays I use that...

Prabhupada: There is Theosophical Society?

Yasodanandana: Yes, all over the world, international.

Prabhupada: Started from here?

Kesavalal Trivedi: It was started... Madras center and there in America.

Prabhupada: [break] ...come from the other side. Registering this association, some friend suggested, "Why don't you make it 'God consciousness'?" And "No, 'Krsna conscious.' If I bring God consciousness, they will bring so many gods."

Kesavalal Trivedi: And another question reply was also very convin..., that all other are gods, but He is Godhead. That is very clinching expla... Some of these things are really very direct replies.

Prabhupada: And actually that is fact.

Kesavalal Trivedi: This was... Even Acyutananda said the other day. Somebody asked us that question, "Why not 'God conscious'? Why do you want 'Krsna'?" He also said the same thing. [break] "What is the difference between thieving the butter and other things by Lord Krsna and thieving by us?" I said, "The thieving is thieving." I said, "How can there be theft of..."

Prabhupada: And if you steal, you will be beaten with shoes.

Kesavalal Trivedi: We are beaten with shoes, but He is allowed.

Prabhupada: Not only allowed, but He is worshiped: "Sir, it is very kind of You that You have stolen." [laughter]

Kesavalal Trivedi: That is sure. In forensic language it is called abet, abetted. The very owner abets, "It is kind of you to have committed theft of this." [end]